FF/FG/Green Next Government

Ha Long Bay

smurgen wrote: »

Those statistics mean nothing. Especially if they're not testing in the factories. Are they using the same criteria for testing in the factories as community?
1500 infections linked to just 28 factories.
Those in kildare locked down the county. Are FG playing with people's health for financial gain? Were the other businesses in those counties worth shutting down for a couple of larry Goodman's factories?

Just a quick questions do you think FG ordered the HSE to cancel the planned testing in the factories?

Also if demand for community testing increased would you ignore that and continue with the planned testing?

Hawthorn Tree

Meat/Food plants were always a major risk. Many European countries proved this. The HSE should have been proactively testing them before the clusters emerged.

June article in UK

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/revealed-meat-processing-plants-ideal-incubator-coronavirus/

Revealed: why meat processing plants are the ideal incubator of the coronavirus

But such outbreaks are not a UK phenomenon – 650 staff at a slaughterhouse in Germany have tested positive for the disease and there have been two outbreaks in France.

Outbreaks in meat processing plants have been common features of the pandemic, with research by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) showing that after ships and workers’ dormitories food processing factories have been responsible for the biggest localised outbreaks.

At a fish processing plant in Ghana there were 534 cases of the disease and a meat-processing plant in Sioux Falls, South Dakota in the US saw 518 infection.

blanch152

smurgen wrote: »

Those statistics mean nothing. Especially if they're not testing in the factories. Are they using the same criteria for testing in the factories as community?
1500 infections linked to just 28 factories.
Those in kildare locked down the county. Are FG playing with people's health for financial gain? Were the other businesses in those counties worth shutting down for a couple of larry Goodman's factories?

Christ almighty, which planet are you on? You are dealing with last months Covid outbreak, not what’s happening now. If you and Pearse were running the country, we would be only getting round to the first lockdown around now.

smurgen

john4321 wrote: »

Just a quick questions do you think FG ordered the HSE to cancel the planned testing in the factories?

Also if demand for community testing increased would you ignore that and continue with the planned testing?

Yes.
Tell me this if the factories in Kildare Offaly and Laois were not responsible for the lockdown there can you explain the reason for this strategy? Do you think the lockdown of KOL is not linked to meat factories?

"Mr Calleary agreed repeat blanket testing would begin on all workers at meat processing plants and that Kildare, Laois and Offaly will be the initial focus."

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1158126/

blanch152

Hawthorn Tree wrote: »

Why does the agriculture minister say the opposite? The 3rd FFG agriculture minister.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/covid-19-agriculture-minister-says-serial-testing-at-meat-plants-has-started-1016409.html



Why is he misleading the public on the radio? This was yesterday...

I showed up the lack of knowledge in a similar post already.

smurgen

blanch152 wrote: »

Christ almighty, which planet are you on? You are dealing with last months Covid outbreak, not what’s happening now. If you and Pearse were running the country, we would be only getting round to the first lockdown around now.

Last months strain is it? Have the meat factory workers hit heard immunity since?

Ha Long Bay

smurgen wrote: »

Yes.
Tell me this if the factories in Kildare Offaly and Laois were not responsible for the lockdown there can you explain the reason for this strategy? Do you think the lockdown of KOL is not linked to meat factories?

"Mr Calleary agreed repeat blanket testing would begin on all workers at meat processing plants and that Kildare, Laois and Offaly will be the initial focus."

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1158126/

Sorry just to confirm you think FG ordered the HSE to cancel the planned testing in the factories? It's unclear from the reply.

James Brown

smurgen wrote: »

Last months strain is it? Have the meat factory workers hit heard immunity since?

Simon will think its Covid number 20.

James Brown

john4321 wrote: »

Sorry just to confirm you think FG ordered the HSE to cancel the planned testing in the factories? It's unclear from the reply.

Do you think the HSE are a rogue organisation outside of the law operating like the Molly Maguires?

Ha Long Bay

Bowie wrote: »

Do you think the HSE are a rogue organisation outside of the law operating like the Molly Maguires?

Do you have a second account called smurgen who I asked to just clarify a fairly straight forward question or just decide to reply with some random question about the HSE comparing them to The Molly Maguires?


To answer your question I dont think the HSE is an Irish 19th-century secret society active in Ireland, Liverpool and parts of the Eastern United States.

James Brown

john4321 wrote: »

Do you have a second account called smurgen who I asked to just clarify a fairly straight forward question or just decide to reply with some random question about the HSE comparing them to The Molly Maguires?


To answer your question I dont think the HSE is an Irish 19th-century secret society active in Ireland, Liverpool and parts of the Eastern United States.

You might be right.

Ha Long Bay

Bowie wrote: »

You might be right.

About which part?


"Do you have a second account called smurgen?"

Or

"To answer your question I dont think the HSE is an Irish 19th-century secret society active in Ireland..."

James Brown

john4321 wrote: »

About which part?


"Do you have a second account called smurgen?"

Or

"To answer your question I dont think the HSE is an Irish 19th-century secret society active in Ireland"

Its likely the HSE are affiliated with the government, likely some kind of health type government agency or other with a minister of some sort at the helm. I'd imagine.

Ha Long Bay

Bowie wrote: »

Its likely the HSE are affiliated with the government, likely some kind of health type government agency or other with a minister of some sort at the helm. I'd imagine.

Can I ask why you think that? You have made a few accusations there without anything to back it up. You use the term likely and I'd imagine in the post.


My original question to the other poster was:

"Sorry just to confirm you think FG ordered the HSE to cancel the planned testing in the factories? It's unclear from the reply."

Do you think they did?

James Brown

john4321 wrote: »

Can I ask why you think that? You have made a few accusations there without anything to back it up. You use the term likely and I'd imagine in the post.


My original question to the other poster was:

"Sorry just to confirm you think FG ordered the HSE to cancel the planned testing in the factories? It's unclear from the reply."

Do you think they did?

What accusations? That the HSE are a government affiliate, that there's a health department with a minister at the helm? Do you need me to back that up for you?

I think the government led HSE did, yes.
What's your understanding?

Ha Long Bay

Bowie wrote: »

What accusations? That the HSE are a government affiliate, that there's a health department with a minister at the helm? Do you need me to back that up for you?

I think the government led HSE did, yes.
What's your understanding?

This was your reply.

Bowie wrote: »

Its likely the HSE are affiliated with the government, likely some kind of health type government agency or other with a minister of some sort at the helm. I'd imagine.

Reading this they look like opinions not facts.





Back to the original question which I asked smugen and you are more than welcome to answer.


"Sorry just to confirm you think FG ordered the HSE to cancel the planned testing in the factories? It's unclear from the reply."

James Brown

john4321 wrote: »

This was your reply.




Reading this they look like opinions not facts.

True. You understood the content and called them accusations yet wanted back up. Why?

john4321 wrote: »

Back to the original question which I asked smugen and you are more than welcome to answer.


"Sorry just to confirm you think FG ordered the HSE to cancel the planned testing in the factories? It's unclear from the reply."

I think the government, formed by FF/FG/Greens, direct the HSE.
So the answer would be, yes as part of the government.

Back to my question, what's your understanding? How do you think the HSE operate, outside of government?

Ha Long Bay

Bowie wrote: »

True. You understood the content and called them accusations yet wanted back up. Why?

I don't recall asking for anything to be backed up just questioned your post.

"Its likely the HSE are affiliated with the government, likely some kind of health type government agency or other with a minister of some sort at the helm. I'd imagine"


Feel free to back them up if you like though or I can take them as false as you used likely a few times without any facts.

Bowie wrote: »

I think the government, formed by FF/FG/Greens, direct the HSE.
So the answer would be, yes as part of the government.

The OP (smugen) claimed FG directed the HSE to stop scheduled testing of meat processing plants. Are you saying it was not FG but the whole government that directed them to do so?

Bowie wrote: »

Back to my question, what's your understanding? How do you think the HSE operate, outside of government?

Yes thats how they operate.

James Brown

john4321 wrote: »

I don't recall asking for anything to be backed up just questioned your post.

Just to recap..

You have made a few accusations there without anything to back it up.

Again, you understood the content regarded the HSE, being attached to government, with a health department led by a minister, yet called them accusations? Why?

"john4321 wrote: »

Feel free to back them up if you like though or I can take them as false as you used likely a few times without any facts.

Again, you want the HSE being a government affiliate, associated to the Health department, led by a minister, backed up? Do you not believe such a set up exists? What facts are missing?

"john4321 wrote: »

The OP (smugen) claimed FG directed the HSE to stop scheduled testing of meat processing plants. Are you saying it was not FG but the whole government that directed them to do so?

It was done with the blessing of a government that includes FG. I couldn't tell you which ministers were or were not involved.

john4321 wrote: »

Yes thats how they operate.

I disagree. I would expect that any decisions outside of the day to day admin would be approved or directed by government. Especially regarding the commencement or cessation of blanket testing during a pandemic.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

True. You understood the content and called them accusations yet wanted back up. Why?




I think the government, formed by FF/FG/Greens, direct the HSE.
So the answer would be, yes as part of the government.

Back to my question, what's your understanding? How do you think the HSE operate, outside of government?

At best, that is an incredibly naive understanding of the workings of government.

The HSE are statutorily independent from government, as are all similar State bodies. They have CEOs that are accountable direct to the C&AG, and ultimately, the PAC. I find it very difficult to believe that someone who posts so regularly on these topics has such a limited understanding of how things work.

smurgen

blanch152 wrote: »

At best, that is an incredibly naive understanding of the workings of government.

The HSE are statutorily independent from government, as are all similar State bodies. They have CEOs that are accountable direct to the C&AG, and ultimately, the PAC. I find it very difficult to believe that someone who posts so regularly on these topics has such a limited understanding of how things work.

HSE are independent on paper just like Judges are independent on paper. In reality they exist in the political sphere like everyone else. Funding is from government and they know what side their bread is buttered on.

smurgen

john4321 wrote: »

Sorry just to confirm you think FG ordered the HSE to cancel the planned testing in the factories? It's unclear from the reply.

Government.FG are too close to the meat industry and have been instrumental in light touch regulations for years. They adopt an approach of see no evil hear no evil. How can the pre warning of HSE inspectors to meat processing plants be explained?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/health-authority-gave-meat-plants-advance-notice-of-coronavirus-inspections-1.4301729

Ha Long Bay

smurgen wrote: »

Government.FG are too close to the meat industry and have been instrumental in light touch regulations for years. They adopt an approach of see no evil hear no evil. How can the pre warning of HSE inspectors to meat processing plants be explained?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/health-authority-gave-meat-plants-advance-notice-of-coronavirus-inspections-1.4301729

You seem to be avoiding the question and throwing in a conspiracy for good measure.

Are you claiming the FG instructed the HSE to cancel the planned testing and if so what do you think would be the benefits of doing this?


On your question "How can the pre warning of HSE inspectors to meat processing plants be explained?"


The HSE don't inspect meat processing plants.

blanch152

john4321 wrote: »

You seem to be avoiding the question and throwing in a conspiracy for good measure.

Are you claiming the FG instructed the HSE to cancel the planned testing and if so what do you think would be the benefits of doing this?


On your question "How can the pre warning of HSE inspectors to meat processing plants be explained?"


The HSE don't inspect meat processing plants.

The pre-warnings were in respect of HSA inspections, but the poster is confusing them with the HSE.

It is easy to foment conspiracy theories if the facts are not kept to the forefront.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

At best, that is an incredibly naive understanding of the workings of government.

The HSE are statutorily independent from government, as are all similar State bodies. They have CEOs that are accountable direct to the C&AG, and ultimately, the PAC. I find it very difficult to believe that someone who posts so regularly on these topics has such a limited understanding of how things work.

I find it very easy to believe you left out this part to suit your trying to pass petty point scoring off as legitimate curiosity.

I disagree. I would expect that any decisions outside of the day to day admin would be approved or directed by government. Especially regarding the commencement or cessation of blanket testing during a pandemic.

You are stating that the HSE operate completely independently from the department and minster of health, yes or no?

dundalkfc10

If every member of Govt turned out to be murderers, you would come on here and still the same lads would be defending them at every turn. Its amazing really.

They must have some madness going on upstairs, no matter what cervical scandal, what the state done to Maurice McCabe, the testing and nursing home scandals of recently, its never the Govts fault.

Now the HSE and Govt are not really the same, according to some

Muahahaha

Those meat plants arent even paying PRSI for their employees who get paid through Poland with the tax benefit ending up in the coffers of the Warsaw governement despite the labour taking place on Irish soil. It really goes to show you the favours FFG do for the meat barons with not a word said about it. What other taxpayers here get away without paying PRSI?

James Brown

Muahahaha wrote: »

Those meat plants arent even paying PRSI for their employees who get paid through Poland with the tax benefit ending up in the coffers of the Warsaw governement despite the labour taking place on Irish soil. It really goes to show you the favours FFG do for the meat barons with not a word said about it. What other taxpayers here get away without paying PRSI?

We'd a housing and LA minister not responsible for housing and LA's during a housing crisis, so stands to reason we'd have a hands off health department and minister during a health crisis :rolleyes:

blanch152

Muahahaha wrote: »

Those meat plants arent even paying PRSI for their employees who get paid through Poland with the tax benefit ending up in the coffers of the Warsaw governement despite the labour taking place on Irish soil. It really goes to show you the favours FFG do for the meat barons with not a word said about it. What other taxpayers here get away without paying PRSI?

Another unsubstantiated conspiracy theory?

Or maybe you could provide a link to back this up?

Yurt2

blanch152 wrote: »

Another unsubstantiated conspiracy theory?

Or maybe you could provide a link to back this up?

This was widely reported in the press and was the subject of an Oireachtas committee meeting so you're not getting away with feigning ignorance that you didn't read it or hear it.

The scale of the practice in the meat industry is unclear, but we know it is going on.