FF/FG/Green Next Government

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

I am sorry, but the opinion of six judges as opposed to the rantings of a SF-supporting poster on boards?

No contest.

So no attempt to counter issues raised,just dismiss them entirley based on who raises them....this isnt debate,just echo.chamber forming



Surely.the burden of proof for conviction is too low,if this case is anything to go by??

Its crazy,that people support locking up people with near on zero evidence,there was more evidence againest the birmingham 6 (and they were 100% innocent)

maneno

theguzman wrote: »

Dublin will look like Minneapolis if they even attempt that, there will be a total uprising against the Govt if they try that stunt. It won't be hard to provoke either with a corrupt Traitor Fianna Fail Taoiseach and the legitimate election winners Sinn Fein kept out of power. Everyone says these things will never happen but it won't take much to provoke a powerful backlash now from the citizens.

Are you having a laugh?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Don't think you will find a more stereotypical 1980s Fianna Fail politician, with the funeral director business at all. That party would be better off without him.

Ah well sure...the blanch has spoken. That'll be the end of that.

smurgen

blanch152 wrote: »

I am sorry, but the opinion of six judges as opposed to the rantings of a SF-supporting poster on boards?

No contest.

I'd take the opinion of Amnesty International and the UN over the rantings of a "Green Party" supporting poster on boards. You're all over the place.

Truthvader

rob316 wrote: »

At least the greens are brave enough to govern and know you can't create change unless you govern. Absolute waste of time SF are as a party, they will never get a vote off me again.

Can't understand this argument. Absolutely beyond me how any decent person would vote for them in the first place But to be fair they are not choosing not to govern. No-one will have anything to do with them.

markodaly

The_Conductor wrote: »

Strongly suspect you're right.
The Northern Irish contingent and the youth wing- alone, have enough votes to sink it.

They (The Greens) deserve to be punished if they do sink it- we really do not need another election at the moment.

It will be a sad indictment of the Greens if they reject it. If there is another election, they will lose a ton of their seats.

FG would be happy though.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Big loss in this neck of the woods to FF...Greens in disarray...it's all going swimmingly.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jonnyfallon/status/1273686833696825344

FG secretly delighted so.

markodaly

Deleted User wrote: »

The evidence consisted of a few ira propaganda posters,every 2nd young lad in secondary school.has them now

That is ridiculous talk. Not every young lad in Ireland has Provo posters on their wall.

Yurt2

Just read the circumstances of that case. Fairly farcical conviction, and I have no time for dissidents at all before anyone goes down that road.

Incredibly low standards of 'belief' evidence that no other court in the common law world can entertain as evidence.

is_that_so

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Looking at twitter I think green members will reject it.

Twitter would reject anything. It's not the real world at all.

Yurt2

is_that_so wrote: »

Twitter would reject anything. It's not the real world at all.

Have heard it first hand from several Green Party members that it's deeply unpopular, particularly the Land Development Agency and the copy and paste of FG housing policies on to it.

Mortelaro

Yurt! wrote: »

Have heard it first hand from several Green Party members that it's deeply unpopular, particularly the Land Development Agency and the copy and paste of FG housing policies on to it.

My!
Isn't that handy how you know several green party members

is_that_so

Yurt! wrote: »

Have heard it first hand from several Green Party members that it's deeply unpopular, particularly the Land Development Agency and the copy and paste of FG housing policies on to it.

Yeah as I've commented already on this it will be zealots v pragmatists. The zealots seem to be flaming out on social media, as usual. Being involved in government is a compromise but an opportunity to get things done. If they don't understand that they should start their own brand of activism far from any opportunities of power but at least they'll be pure. There were lots of issues in 2007 as well.

CrankyHaus

Yurt! wrote: »

Just read the circumstances of that case. Fairly farcical conviction, and I have no time for dissidents at all before anyone goes down that road.

Incredibly low standards of 'belief' evidence that no other court in the common law world can entertain as evidence.

It is not unusual for certain standards or rights to be suspended in circumstances that require it.


For example in Germany normal rights to freedom of expression may be suspended when it comes to Nazis; for instance holocaust denial is a crime. In a normal country this may seem ridiculous but Germany is not a normal country. It has faced an inordinate challenge in de-nazifying itself and IMO these extreme measures are justified and proportionate, and the Germans deserve credit for their success in denazifying.



Similarly in Ireland we face an unusual and persistent challenge to the rule of law and our democracy from self-appointed representatives of the "true" mandate of the Irish people. The SCC is a proportionate measure to face down this challenge, and the amount of actual miscarriages of justice you can lay at its door after half a century is infinitisimal next to the good it has done.

ninebeanrows

Would there be a unity government for 1 month to pass important legalisation before an election or how will it work?

is_that_so

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

Would there be a unity government for 1 month to pass important legalisation before an election or how will it work?

A Taoiseach needs to be elected for anything to work and if parties agreed to that and then suddenly withdrew support the public would not view that too kindly .

CrankyHaus

CrankyHaus wrote: »

It is not unusual for certain standards or rights to be suspended in circumstances that require it.


For example in Germany normal rights to freedom of expression may be suspended when it comes to Nazis; for instance holocaust denial is a crime. In a normal country this may seem ridiculous but Germany is not a normal country. It has faced an inordinate challenge in de-nazifying itself and IMO these extreme measures are justified and proportionate, and the Germans deserve credit for their success in denazifying.



Similarly in Ireland we face an unusual and persistent challenge to the rule of law and our democracy from self-appointed representatives of the "true" mandate of the Irish people. The SCC is a proportionate measure to face down this challenge, and the amount of actual miscarriages of justice you can lay at its door after half a century is infinitisimal next to the good it has done.

Nothing justifies suspending human or civil rights,no matter how yous dress it up or pretend to yourself its ok.......whats point in having them,if we can.just do away with em,when suits


Noone should be in jail.for evidence presented in that case,the birmingham 6 had more evidence againest them (traces of explosives off cigarette box and forced confessions,yay for suspending civil rights to torture them,and they turned out 100% innocent)

RandomViewer

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

Would there be a unity government for 1 month to pass important legalisation before an election or how will it work?

Mary Lou would be Taoiseach,

StupidLikeAFox

is_that_so wrote: »

Being involved in government is a compromise but an opportunity to get things done. If they don't understand that they should start their own brand of activism far from any opportunities of power but at least they'll be pure. There were lots of issues in 2007 as well.

Very true - not sure what the end game is for the Greens that want to reject the deal. They have done very well considering their numbers, they will have a minister for the environment in place and can get their seats at the top table and influence policy for a while. What are the alternatives:

1. Another election - high risk of losing seats. Many of the people who were new Green voters (not the die hards) will question why they would vote for them again if they are not actually going to govern when given the opportunity to do so
2. Renegotiate the PfG - I don't think this is a possibility, fairly sure you get one shot at this
3. Go into opposition - shouting from the sidelines again for a few years, except this time with a bit less credibility as both their supporters and opponents will both know that they had their chance to influence policy and didn't take it

Fianna Fail are in a different place - if they reject the deal, they might finally get rid of Martin, meaning a new start and potential bounce for them. FG might be secretly hoping to reject the deal and capitalise on their Covid 19 bounce in numbers - although I would question how long that will last, especially in a new election campaign. But for the Greens, maybe I'm wrong but its hard to see any scenario where the greens reject the deal and come out of it better off.

Water John

Yurt! wrote: »

Have heard it first hand from several Green Party members that it's deeply unpopular, particularly the Land Development Agency and the copy and paste of FG housing policies on to it.

The ratio of speakers addressing the Green convention was about 2:1 in favour of the deal. The vote will probably be close but throwing up nonsense like this. It has about as much value as if Trump said it.

JohnnyFlash

Water John wrote: »

The ratio of speakers addressing the Green convention was about 2:1 in favour of the deal. The vote will probably be close but throwing up nonsense like this. It has about as much value as if Trump said it.

Yurt was talking to the Green Party members in his head.

CrankyHaus

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing justifies suspending human or civil rights,no matter how yous dress it up or pretend to yourself its ok.......whats point in having them,if we can.just do away with em,when suits


Noone should be in jail.for evidence presented in that case,the birmingham 6 had more evidence againest them (traces of explosives off cigarette box and forced confessions,yay for suspending civil rights to torture them,and they turned out 100% innocent)

The Birmingham 6 was in the mainland UK, where they had nothing similar to the SCC, except Diplock Courts in NI; so it's irrelevant.

Human and Civil Right are meaningless if the state can no longer protect people's basic right to safety in their day to day lives because an army of thugs are going around robbing and murdering at will. Proportionality is a basic principle of constitutional law and the SCC meets it.

CrankyHaus

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The Birmingham 6 was in the mainland UK, where they had nothing similar to the SCC, except Diplock Courts in NI; so it's irrelevant.

Human and Civil Right are meaningless if the state can no longer protect people's basic right to safety in their day to day lives because an army of thugs are going around robbing and murdering at will. Proportionality is a basic principle of constitutional law and the SCC meets it.

I used birmingham.6 as an.example of group with more evidence and still ended innocent


IMO its outlived its use,the troubles are over,this lad wasnt even charged on explosives conspiracy,despite claims it was a bomb componant??

With all.the modern surrveilance,forensics and intelligence gathering ability,they should have to come up,with more evidence than what was presented here imo.....


Its lunacy locking people up,with what seems to me,near on zero evidence......whats to.stop.gaurds doing this to anyone else?

Reprehensible beliefs as seems case here,shouldnt be cause to imprision someone,its just pure wrong

RandomViewer

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The Birmingham 6 was in the mainland UK, where they had nothing similar to the SCC, except Diplock Courts in NI; so it's irrelevant.

Human and Civil Right are meaningless if the state can no longer protect people's basic right to safety in their day to day lives because an army of thugs are going around robbing and murdering at will. Proportionality is a basic principle of constitutional law and the SCC meets it.

If it had been used fairly and meted out justice to those responsible for the banking crisis in 2009, would Seanie have walked if he'd been tried before the SCC?

Bridge93

I don’t get the Greens not agreeing to it. They are a small party who will never in a million years get in by themselves to execute their aspirations. This is literally the most power and concessions they will ever get from any combination of government. Yet some believe it’s not enough. Surely some of your objectives is better than the only alternative which is none.

Unless of course they know this and only ever want to be on the other side of the fence whinging rather than having to take action and getting shown up

JohnnyFlash

Bridge93 wrote: »

I don’t get the Greens not agreeing to it. They are a small party who will never in a million years get in by themselves to execute their aspirations. This is literally the most power and concessions they will ever get from any combination of government. Yet some believe it’s not enough. Surely some of your objectives is better than the only alternative which is none.

Unless of course they know this and only ever want to be on the other side of the fence whinging rather than having to take action and getting shown up

Government is difficult. You’ve limited budgets, competing interests, issues popping up all over the place. It’s county hurling.

That’s starting to scare them. I’d say some of their members just want to live in a lovely little world where they can have their ideologies, be purist in their beliefs, and be hurlers on the ditch.

Happens with most of the small parties. Their supporters tend to be either stupid or politically naive.

CrankyHaus

Deleted User wrote: »

IMO its outlived its use,the troubles are over,this lad wasnt even charged on explosives conspiracy,despite claims it was a bomb componant??

With all.the modern surrveilance,forensics and intelligence gathering ability,they should have to come up,with more evidence than what was presented here imo.....


Its lunacy locking people up,with what seems to me,near on zero evidence......whats to.stop.gaurds doing this to anyone else?

Reprehensible beliefs as seems case here,shouldnt be cause to imprision someone,its just pure wrong

Thanks for that response. I don't disagree with any particular part of that.



I do think that in cases still arise were the normal court process can be perverted by criminals, the SCC has a place. We are a tiny country and witnesses cannot be protected as they may be in the US.



I agree that the SCC should be very limited to prevent overreach, expecially as The Troubles are over.

Bridge93

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Government is difficult. You’ve limited budgets, competing interests, issues popping up all over the place. It’s county hurling.

That’s starting to scare them. I’d say some of their members just want to live in a lovely little world where they can have their ideologies, be purist in their beliefs, and be hurlers on the ditch.

Happens with most of the small parties. Their supporters tend to be either stupid or politically naive.

Yeah I’d imagine this must be it.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

If that was the only evidence, you might have a point, but it wasn't, there was a long Garda file on the lad, got everything he deserved.



The desperate bitterness is so charming, cheers me up no end in the middle of this miserable lockdown.

It's taken me a while, but I've just realised that Sinn Fein think we are still in the UK, that is why they have been claiming victory in the general election. They believe we operate a first past the post system like the Brits. Ditto the poor fools on here who have been crowing about which count people got elected on.

What bitterness?...I've not read the rest of your post yet just to see, but I'm betting Shinners....
Ah great laugh
Your little SF rant has nothing to do with my comment what so ever. The best thing SF have going for them IMO is wanting to build social and affordable. That's it. The fact that they did so well in the election is just something you have to get over. Obviously they seemed more appealing than FG. Could all change back. It's sad that all your team has is criticising SF. Maybe get some good policies and politicians? Stand on their own merits without relying on whatboutery, often fake and inferred.
My comment is hopeful we can move away from the historic cronyism of FF/FG.
As you where

Yurt2

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Happens with most of the small parties. Their supporters tend to be either stupid or politically naive.

Ladies and gentlemen. Fine Gael

Where's my sick bag?