360M euro per year to be spent on cycling and walking infrastructure

tomasrojo

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I don't think you need to slavishly copy Amsterdam or Copenhagen though. For example, there's been a massive increase in cycling in Dublin in recent years despite us not building any Dutch style infrastructure.

There is a tendency to think that Holland created it's cycling culture by building infrastructure, but it's not quite as clear cut as that. Their cycling culture was always much stronger than other countries and even at its lowest point, numbers cycling were multiples above the UK for example.

Yeah, that's true. At least, there's a graph I posted here ages ago that suggests that. The change of philosophy in the mid-70s did show an very abrupt halt to the decline in numbers cycling though, and a modest but steady rise afterwards.

They do seem to have a practical engineering culture though, with iterative development of junctions, for example until they have something people are happy with. And they have built up a lot of useful knowledge and experience.

Also, the experience of Seville seems pretty convincing that you do get a lot more bike trips if you put together a *network* of streets with specific provision for bikes

ExMachina1000

beauf wrote: »

Bring back coal and smog, I hear you say. Put the lead back into petrol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

No need to bring back coal or leaded petrol.

Spending 1.8 billion on bicycles ?
No need either

Calm the hysterics

beauf

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I don't think you need to slavishly copy Amsterdam or Copenhagen though. For example, there's been a massive increase in cycling in Dublin in recent years despite us not building any Dutch style infrastructure.

There is a tendency to think that Holland created it's cycling culture by building infrastructure, but it's not quite as clear cut as that. Their cycling culture was always much stronger than other countries and even at its lowest point, numbers cycling were multiples above the UK for example.

Yes but the reason they change tack was a public movement to reclaim the streets for people not cars.

. The number of traffic casualties rose to a peak of 3,300 deaths in 1971. More than 400 children were killed in traffic accidents that year.

This staggering loss led to protests by different action groups, the most memorable of which was Stop de Kindermoord (“stop the child murder”). Its first president was the Dutch former MEP, Maartje van Putten.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Stop+de+Kindermoord&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiA6973o4nqAhWtQhUIHTvvADEQ_AUoAXoECAwQAw&biw=1920&bih=947

Padre_Pio

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

No need to bring back coal or leaded petrol.

Spending 1.8 billion on bicycles ?
No need either

Calm the hysterics

No ones spending money on bicycles.

Look at the thread title, it's spent on cycling and walking infrastructure.

There's an estate near where I live that's 1km from a school. The footpath between the two disappears for about 400m for no reason.

If they finish this footpath with the money it will be fantastic.

Chips Lovell

tomasrojo wrote: »

Yeah, that's true. At least, there's a graph I posted here ages ago that suggests that.

Possibly this one?



In terms of promoting cycling, I think positive messages work best, which is why I think the Bike to Work Scheme and Dublin Bikes worked so well. Cycling-specific infrastructure I think sends mixed messages. On the one hand it may encourage novices to start cycling but on the other, it leads people to conclude that cycling is so dangerous that it requires separate infrastructure.

My own take is that we already have the infrastructure, and rather than build parallel infrastructure,we just need to re-prioritise use of it. The pandemic has been inadvertently eye-opening. Reduce the number of cars and all of a sudden the number of families cycling rockets.

beauf

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

No need to bring back coal or leaded petrol.

Spending 1.8 billion on bicycles ?
No need either

Calm the hysterics

1.8 Billion lol.

In recent years we've been reducing what we spend on cycling, drastically.

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-high-cyclist-deaths-eu-4990173-Feb2020/

https://irishcycle.com/2019/10/08/cycling-gets-less-than-2-of-department-of-transports-e384m-budget-increase/

Dublin-based councillor Patrick Costello (Green) tweeted: “Cycling per budget: 2015-€19m, 2016-Almost halved to €10.5m, 2018-Fell further to €7m… 2020-A token increase to €9m on greenway & urban cycling.

https://www.eltis.org/discover/news/differences-mobility-cultures-across-eu28

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/25/dublin-disappoints-what-happened-to-city-cyclings-great-hope

tomasrojo

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Possibly this one?

Thanks!
This was the one I was thinking of:

tomasrojo

beauf wrote: »

1.8 Billion lol.

In recent years we've been reducing what we spend on cycling, drastically.

Ross really had no interest in active travel. None.

Type 17

Segregated cycle route from Blackrock to Forty Foot to be set up

Lyan

What a joke. Oh sure, cycle paths are certainly top priority right now. Let's just throw half a billion at it while we deal with the fallout of a pandemic.

Cllr Lorna Bogue, Green Party Councillor for Cork City South East came out with the following:

She said that when broken down, the €320 million funding for walking and cycling infrastructure ends up being “about €11 million for Cork” which, she said, in the context of Cork City Council budgets “is not actually a huge amount”.

Source

I'm not sure about her 11 mil number, but taking it at face value, considering that 11 million would be per year over the life of the government, totaling 44-55 million thats more than has been invested into cycling infrastructure for the whole country in the last number of years combined

I'm thrilled with this commitment, however it may pan out. The longer this investment runs, the more difficult it will be to reduce it in the future.

Walking away from this deal would be utterly bonkers for the Greens

Type 17

Lyan wrote: »

What a joke. Oh sure, cycle paths are certainly top priority right now. Let's just throw half a billion at it while we deal with the fallout of a pandemic.

The fallout of the pandemic includes the issue that public transport has to be run at 20% capacity, and if everyone gets in their car, they'll just end up looking at the car queueing in front, so walking and cycling are the top priority for changes/improvements to transport. Traffic jams = huge economic cost, so a combination of recommendations to work-from-home, cycle, walk, take public transport if you have to, and only drive if it's unavoidable will be the new normal...

magicbastarder

Lyan wrote: »

What a joke. Oh sure, cycle paths are certainly top priority right now. Let's just throw half a billion at it while we deal with the fallout of a pandemic.

WHERE DO ALL THESE NUMBERS KEEP COMING FROM

cgcsb

Lyan wrote: »

What a joke. Oh sure, cycle paths are certainly top priority right now. Let's just throw half a billion at it while we deal with the fallout of a pandemic.

Well yeah it's even more important now that we have social distancing for the next few months

beauf

Lyan wrote: »

What a joke. Oh sure, cycle paths are certainly top priority right now. Let's just throw half a billion at it while we deal with the fallout of a pandemic.

The phrase "tone deaf" comes to mind.

...TRAFFIC JAMS IN the greater Dublin area is estimated to cost the economy €350 million per year, and could rise to €2 billion per year by 2033....

https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-traffic-e350-million-cost-3365983-Apr2017/

I'm not entirely sure that the Govt would know how to spend money on cycling. But boy do we sure know how to spend it on traffic.

tomasrojo

cgcsb wrote: »

Well yeah it's even more important now that we have social distancing for the next few months

Oh sure, let's throw 700 trillion at social distancing!

I despair of this country.

(Am I doing this right?)

AndrewJRenko

Hrududu wrote: »

Is that true? If so thats an incredible statistic, and should put paid to people whinging about investing in cycling infrastructure.

The dream for me is Amsterdam. I haven't been to Copenhagen to compare, but imagine cities in Ireland having that type of set up.

Gospel, every word.

https://irishcycle.com/2017/07/30/more-residents-commute-by-bicycle-than-by-luas-and-dart-in-dublin-city-and-suburbs/

tomasrojo wrote: »

Ross really had no interest in active travel. None.

He had no real interest in transport, to be fair, or tourism. The sport had a few laughs and jollies for him.

Can anyone recall any policy initiative?

cgcsb

tomasrojo wrote: »

Oh sure, let's throw 700 trillion at social distancing!

I despair of this country.

(Am I doing this right?)

It's not Just about social distancing. These schemes have been planned for a decade or more but have been hindered by political cowardice/corruption.

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

It's not Just about social distancing. These schemes have been planned for a decade or more but have been hindered by political cowardice/corruption.

Don't forget NIMBY's

magicbastarder

regarding this programme for government and the commitments agreed - does anyone know whether the transport brief, or environment, or climate change, has been agreed as part of it?

Melanchthon

blackbox wrote: »

People in Amsterdam and Copenhagen cycle in their work clothes.

A question about this, there's always constant talk about Amsterdam and other European cities but when your over in them people seem to be cycling in nice clothes at sedate paces on heavy looking bikes? What's the actual deal with that as it seems impractical for anything but the shorter commutes (I own a heavy 3 speed myself so that's from experience)

Springy Turf wrote: »

Ahh here. 11km is definitely 30minutes+ for the majority of cyclists. Unless you are haring around and breaking lights, an average speed of 33kph is not going to happen in town.

Semi-trollish point, as above in the "cycling cities" most people seem to cycle pretty slow would it make sense to ban fast cyclists, if one agressively fast cyclist puts of three casuals it's better for the fast cyclist to be gone and have the slow commuters in, when I cycled in London found hated other cyclists nearly more than drivers.

Serious point does consultancy favour those who are already cyclists rather than the people who matter in terms of the policy, those that could be converted to cycling but don't.
The person who cycles 30+ kilometers a day doesn't matter at all in this conversation, they already do long distances even with bad facilities and angry drivers and weather.

An easy suggestion for improving cycling a bit would be to stop utilities from patching the side of the road up really poorly so it turns into s terrible surface for bicycles

tomasrojo

Melanchthon wrote: »

A question about this, there's always constant talk about Amsterdam and other European cities but when your over in them people seem to be cycling in nice clothes at sedate paces on heavy looking bikes? What's the actual deal with that as it seems impractical for anything but the shorter commutes (I own a heavy 3 speed myself so that's from experience)

I cycle about 25-30km a day (outside plagues) on a bakfiets, with two kids for some of that distance. It's a lot heavier than a 3-speed omafiets.

However, I think they combine mass transit and cycling a great deal. There are huge bike parks around train stations in the Netherlands.

tomasrojo

cgcsb wrote: »

It's not Just about social distancing. These schemes have been planned for a decade or more but have been hindered by political cowardice/corruption.

Ah yeah, I'm just quoting big numbers and feigning despair. It seemed to be a thing in the thread.

beauf

cgcsb wrote: »

It's not Just about social distancing. These schemes have been planned for a decade or more but have been hindered by political cowardice/corruption.

Look at the Liffey Cycle Route. I'll have retired before that gets done. if ever.

Carawaystick

beauf wrote: »

Look at the Liffey Cycle Route. I'll have retired before that gets done. if ever.

The one they built since Covid started?

beauf

Carawaystick wrote: »

The one they built since Covid started?

No the one they've been talking about for a decade.

Now you mention its how is the interim route working out with far lighter than normal traffic load? Has anyone used it?

Breezer

beauf wrote: »

No the one they've been talking about for a decade.

Now you mention its how is the interim route working out with far lighter than normal traffic load? Has anyone used it?

I haven’t cycled it yet, but I’ve just gone for a midnight stroll along it. Looks impressive generally, but I’m trying to figure out how you’d enter it from a northside side road. I’m guessing you’d position yourself out in the centre of the lane and pull in to the right when possible, but that seems a little daunting for inexperienced cyclists. Granted, it’s a lot better than having to continue along that way until O’Connell St, like you used to have to do.

Also a little narrow in parts for overtaking slower cyclists, but again better than dealing with angry taxi and coach drivers the whole way.

beauf

Never really had an issue into town. Never liked coming out of town though.

I assume lowering the difficulty to encourage new cyclists would be an objective. Be interesting does it achieve that.

Breezer

beauf wrote: »

Never really had an issue into town. Never liked coming out of town though.

I assume lowering the difficulty to encourage new cyclists would be an objective. Be interesting does it achieve that.

Is there a plan to do anything similar on the south quays for the moment?

Macy0161

Type 17 wrote: »

The fallout of the pandemic includes the issue that public transport has to be run at 20% capacity, and if everyone gets in their car, they'll just end up looking at the car queueing in front, so walking and cycling are the top priority for changes/improvements to transport. Traffic jams = huge economic cost, so a combination of recommendations to work-from-home, cycle, walk, take public transport if you have to, and only drive if it's unavoidable will be the new normal...

Whilst this is clearly very important, I think all around the State people have got used to walking and cycling on their roads again, particularly during the 2km restrictions.

Even with the increase in traffic, there's still noticeably more tweens and teens out and about on foot and bikes where I live. It's like the freedom we may have had in our youth has been rediscovered somewhat.

However, this probably needs a change of motorist mindset as much as more infrastructure, and a massive increase in enforcement.