George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck [Part 2] (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

Overheal

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

same reason he has dismissed every other fact that did not suit him

I've engaged everything on thread that you and others have addressed toward me, and loads more that wasn't. What did I miss?

Overheal

stinkypinky wrote: »

You do know what intoxication means? Do you know what recent means?

There isn't a single report that claims he wasn't under the influence of substances during the incident, are you going to keep clinging to that lie?

The medical examiners report lists fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use. There's video of him behaving in a non lucid state.

That's the lie, there. A forensic pathologist has reported exactly that: he was not high during his arrest.

stinkypinky

Overheal wrote: »

What testimonials say he was high at the time, sorry?

The medical examiners report cites Fentanyl intoxication and recent Meth use. There is video evidence too.

We have forensic pathologist attesting that he was not high at the time of his arrest.

You've said that line 10 times now - paste the link.

Overheal

stinkypinky wrote: »

The medical examiners report cites Fentanyl intoxication and recent Meth use.



You've said that line 10 times now - paste the link.

....It is linked. Tap on the very same text you just copied and bolded my post above, and others. Come on now. Here it is again

https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/working-stiff/86913

Here was the other: https://knsiradio.com/news/local-news/expert-drug-toxicity-had-no-bearing-george-floyds-cause-death

Yes, the examiners reported fentanyl and meth in his system. This doesn't indicate that he was high on either when he died, just that it was in his system.

Round and around we go, where this circular argument ends - we all know.

stinkypinky

Overheal wrote: »

....It is linked. Tap on the very same text you just copied and bolded. Come on now. Here it is again

https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/working-stiff/86913

Yes, the examiners reported fentanyl and meth in his system. This doesn't indicate that he was high on either when he died, just that it was in his system.

Round and around we go, where this circular argument ends - we all know.

That opinion blog is behind a paywall. You claimed that the forensic pathologist attesting stated that he wasn't high at the time of his arrest. Paste a link to to the medical report.

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

That's the lie, there. A forensic pathologist has reported exactly that: he was not high during his arrest.

Here's a quote from that article...

"The gait disturbance suggests that Floyd may have been under the influence of alcohol or some other drug that could affect his balance."

Eric Cartman

Overheal wrote: »

That's the lie, there. A forensic pathologist has reported exactly that: he was not high during his arrest.

The district attorney's charging documents in the case stated, "The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation," and that "Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. The combined effects of Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions, and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death." In contrast, the medical examiner's first press release stated that "the cause and manner of death is currently pending further testing."

the full autopsy report, which indicated that the cause of death was "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression," and that the manner of death was homicide. They listed arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease, fentanyl intoxication, and recent methamphetamine use as other significant conditions contributing to death.

from your own link.

Justin Credible Darts

you can spout your stats from a single city if you wish, but the national facts shows blacks commit more murders than whites, despite being the minority.
These are not stats in dispute

You can cry about white people smoked marajuana, but most serious crime is committed by blacks, again a fact not in dispute
Most blacks shot by police are shot by blacks and hispanics, not whites...again fact

You can scour the entire internet to find selective stats to suit your "reasoning" but it wont change the truth.

In the end we are left with a single scumbag cop, who knelt on another scumbag ex con who was on drugs and with no proof that intent of vile cop was racist, when it is quite likely it was a personal issue between two people who knew each other,, seeing as the other 3 black men in the car had no issue with the cop.

I know you love conspiracy theories, as I can see you are a moderator of that section, but something facts are just that fact.

good evening to you,
I am done wasting my time.

Overheal

nullzero wrote: »

Here's a quote from that article...

"The gait disturbance suggests that Floyd may have been under the influence of alcohol or some other drug that could affect his balance."

Apologies, getting some links confused having pasted them all dozens of times in the last 2 hours for users seemingly oblivious to their presence:

"All the experts I spoke to see no evidence of excited delirium in Floyd’s case. In the video of his death, Melinek pointed out, you can clearly see that he is not sweating excessively, nor is he dressed inappropriately. He communicates clearly with officers and bystanders and is coherent even as he is pleading for his life. But the fact that one of the officers at the scene suggested this diagnosis, and that legal scholars believe it will come up in Chauvin’s defense, demonstrates how medical analysis can be used in cases like this. And how disagreement among forensic pathologists about how to describe the evidence in a case can muddy the legal waters."

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-two-autopsies-of-george-floyd-arent-as-different-as-they-seem/

AbusesToilets

Overheal wrote: »

....It is linked. Tap on the very same text you just copied and bolded my post above, and others. Come on now. Here it is again

https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/working-stiff/86913

Here was the other: https://knsiradio.com/news/local-news/expert-drug-toxicity-had-no-bearing-george-floyds-cause-death

Yes, the examiners reported fentanyl and meth in his system. This doesn't indicate that he was high on either when he died, just that it was in his system.

Round and around we go, where this circular argument ends - we all know.

It also doesn't indicate that he wasn't high, which is something you have repeatedly stated. You are Inferring that to support your argument, in the face of clear evidence to the contrary.

joe40

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the full autopsy report, which indicated that the cause of death was "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression," and that the manner of death was homicide. They listed arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease, fentanyl intoxication, and recent methamphetamine use as other significant conditions contributing to death.

from your own link.

The "manner of death was homicide" that is the important line from that report. Non of those things would have killed him had it not been for the excessive use of the cops knee on his neck. Long after he had been restrained and in handcuffs.

Overheal

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

you can spout your stats from a single city if you wish, but the national facts shows blacks commit more murders than whites, despite being the minority.
These are not stats in dispute

I zeroed in on Chicago because you mentioned Chicago. Of course, I had already posted the national murder closure rate, which is not much better.

You can cry about white people smoked marajuana, but most serious crime is committed by blacks, again a fact not in dispute
Most blacks shot by police are shot by blacks and hispanics, not whites...again fact

And again also a fact the same data means they are killed at a rate 2.5x more often than whites.

In the end we are left with a single scumbag cop, who knelt on another scumbag ex con who was on drugs and with no proof that intent of vile cop was racist, when it is quite likely it was a personal issue between two people who knew each other,, seeing as the other 3 black men in the car had no issue with the cop.

It's hard to pull anything out of scum this, vile that, etc.

I know you love conspiracy theories, as I can see you are a moderator of that section, but something facts are just that fact.

Moderating elsewhere has no basis for here. Ad hominem nonsense, and deflections, you having had a big strop about deflections in the past hour or so.

good evening to you,
I am done wasting my time.

Thanks for that. I assume you would rather abandon the thread than engage the washington post link, which is extensive in its provision of an overwhelming body of research showing as WaPo puts it, that the criminal justice system is racist:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/opinions/systemic-racism-police-evidence-criminal-justice-system/

Overheal

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It also doesn't indicate that he wasn't high, which is something you have repeatedly stated. You are Inferring that to support your argument, in the face of clear evidence to the contrary.

"All the experts I spoke to see no evidence of excited delirium in Floyd’s case. In the video of his death, Melinek pointed out, you can clearly see that he is not sweating excessively, nor is he dressed inappropriately. He communicates clearly with officers and bystanders and is coherent even as he is pleading for his life. But the fact that one of the officers at the scene suggested this diagnosis, and that legal scholars believe it will come up in Chauvin’s defense, demonstrates how medical analysis can be used in cases like this. And how disagreement among forensic pathologists about how to describe the evidence in a case can muddy the legal waters."

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-two-autopsies-of-george-floyd-arent-as-different-as-they-seem/

Eric Cartman

joe40 wrote: »

The "manner of death was homicide" that is the important line from that report. Non of those things would have killed him had it not been for the excessive use of the cops knee on his neck. Long after he had been restrained and in handcuffs.

what it concludes is a cocktail of things, if they did that to a man who wasn't jacked up on fentanyl with a heart condition it probably wouldn't have killed him either.

If he didn't resist arrest he probably wouldn't have even been knelt on.

In hindsight theres a lot of ways that he would probably still be alive

police side : better training and perhaps an updated restraint method

Georges side : don't resist arrest, don't be off your tits on fentanyl, don't cash a fraudulent cheque, don't be a known career criminal.

Overheal

Eric Cartman wrote: »

what it concludes is a cocktail of things, if they did that to a man who wasn't jacked up on fentanyl with a heart condition it probably wouldn't have killed him either.

If he didn't resist arrest he probably wouldn't have even been knelt on.

In hindsight theres a lot of ways that he would probably still be alive

police side : better training and perhaps an updated restraint method

Georges side : don't resist arrest, don't be off your tits on fentanyl, don't cash a fraudulent cheque, don't be a known career criminal.

Was it ever determined the $20 note was fraudulent? I haven't heard.

Eric Cartman

Overheal wrote: »

Was it ever determined the $20 note was fraudulent? I haven't heard.

your style of finger in the ears screaming 'la la la' posting and then nitpicking the literally smallest detail to try disprove the big ones is really quite something I have to say.

stinkypinky

Overheal wrote: »

Apologies, getting some links confused having pasted them all dozens of times in the last 2 hours for users seemingly oblivious to their presence:

"All the experts I spoke to see no evidence of excited delirium in Floyd’s case. In the video of his death, Melinek pointed out, you can clearly see that he is not sweating excessively, nor is he dressed inappropriately. He communicates clearly with officers and bystanders and is coherent even as he is pleading for his life. But the fact that one of the officers at the scene suggested this diagnosis, and that legal scholars believe it will come up in Chauvin’s defense, demonstrates how medical analysis can be used in cases like this. And how disagreement among forensic pathologists about how to describe the evidence in a case can muddy the legal waters."

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-two-autopsies-of-george-floyd-arent-as-different-as-they-seem/

Not what you claimed. You claimed that the forensic pathologist attesting said he wasn't high at the time of his arrest. Literally nothing in that article suggests that and the medical officers toxicology report cites recent Meth use and Fentanyl intoxication. Him not displaying symptoms of "excited delirium" has zero bearing on whether or not he was high - it's like saying a drunk is sober because he's able to stand up straight.

stinkypinky

Eric Cartman wrote: »

your style of finger in the ears screaming 'la la la' posting and then nitpicking the literally smallest detail to try disprove the big ones is really quite something I have to say.

In this case it's him trying to cover up his lie and quickly change topic. Waste of time, I'm out.

2u2me

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Georges side : don't resist arrest, don't be off your tits on fentanyl, don't cash a fraudulent cheque, don't be a known career criminal.

It's important to stress how gravely different those things are.

Resisting arrest should absolutely never be done, if you think you have been wronged you have recourse in the judicial system.

It's shocking to see so many videos coming out of the US of people resisting arrest.

Overheal

Eric Cartman wrote: »

your style of finger in the ears screaming 'la la la' posting and then nitpicking the literally smallest detail to try disprove the big ones is really quite something I have to say.

???

I simply asked if you had knowledge of whether or not the note was fraudulent. You've previously continued to allege other falsehoods in this thread without support, such as George Floyd holding a gun to a pregnant woman (he did not). So, I was wondering if you had actual evidence. That's all.

I didn't include the rest of your post because they're your own opinions and I have nothing to say about them.

Overheal

stinkypinky wrote: »

Not what you claimed. You claimed that the forensic pathologist attesting said he wasn't high at the time of his arrest. Literally nothing in that article suggests that and the medical officers toxicology report cites recent Meth use and Fentanyl intoxication. Him not displaying symptoms of "excited delirium" has zero bearing on whether or not he was high - it's like saying a drunk is sober because he's able to stand up straight.

Round and round we go.

Clear disagreement from experts that he was high during his arrest. Drugs in his body during his autopsies. This is all we know.

Justin Credible Darts

has anyone claimed Floyd was innocently sent to jail for a crime he did not commit yet ?
or how he was forced to take drugs at gunpoint against his will
maybe he was "possessed by aliens" when he was doing his thieving.
Or suffered hearing difficulties when ordered to obey orders by the cops.
seems this ex con was in no way responsible for anything that happened.

oh wait...he was black, and the cop was white, lets ignore the fact they knew each other and simply call it "racist" because that will sell more papers, get more clicks etc and ignore the other 3 black people in the car.

Lets all bandy about claims the police force is racist cos its the in thing to do...who cares if its true of not, its on the internet , therefore it must be true , why let things like questioning, logic, investigations etc take place.

Eric Cartman

stinkypinky wrote: »

In this case it's him trying to cover up his lie and quickly change topic. Waste of time, I'm out.

hence why I've just been accused of perpetuating the gun to a pregnant woman thing, which I've not mentioned to my knowledge , caught out, nitpick small details or launch false accusations and hopefully we'll all post enough to bury the truth so we can have more posts in 4 pages saying he wasn't high as a kite.

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

Round and round we go.

Clear disagreement from experts that he was high during his arrest. Drugs in his body during his autopsies. This is all we know.

That's your interpretation of what these experts are saying. The word "high" isn't used in any context.

At this stage it's probably more reasonable to put this down to a difference of opinion, you don't have any absolute proof to back up what you are saying and those saying he was high cannot prove their opinion to be correct either.

As you said, round and round we go.

Justin Credible Darts

stinkypinky wrote: »

In this case it's him trying to cover up his lie and quickly change topic. Waste of time, I'm out.

I would not quit the thread because of him.
You can still have an intelligent discussion with others

Overheal

2u2me wrote: »

It's important to stress how gravely different those things are.

Resisting arrest should absolutely never be done, if you think you have been wronged you have recourse in the judicial system.

It's shocking to see so many videos coming out of the US of people resisting arrest.

Most resisting arrest is very ill thought out yes. People dying in custody is rare but I could see how it might factor into someones anxiety. another example that didn't result in death but police abusing suspects in custody - I don't think we need to sit here and litigate that, I'm just saying these incidents may play a factor into how compliant people are willing to be with officers.

Overheal

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

has anyone claimed Floyd was innocently sent to jail for a crime he did not commit yet ?
or how he was forced to take drugs at gunpoint against his will
maybe he was "possessed by aliens" when he was doing his thieving.
Or suffered hearing difficulties when ordered to obey orders by the cops.
seems this ex con was in no way responsible for anything that happened.

oh wait...he was black, and the cop was white, lets ignore the fact they knew each other and simply call it "racist" because that will sell more papers, get more clicks etc and ignore the other 3 black people in the car.

Lets all bandy about claims the police force is racist cos its the in thing to do...who cares if its true of not, its on the internet , therefore it must be true , why let things like questioning, logic, investigations etc take place.

Awful lot of BS there. Floyd was tried and convicted for previous crimes, and served the terms of his sentence. Nobody said he was forced to take drugs? Wtf? Aliens??

That you have to now conjure these straw man arguments says a lot about how indefensible your position is.

Eric Cartman

Overheal wrote: »

Most resisting arrest is very ill thought out yes. People dying in custody is rare but I could see how it might factor into someones anxiety. another example that didn't result in death but police abusing suspects in custody - I don't think we need to sit here and litigate that, I'm just saying these incidents may play a factor into how compliant people are willing to be with officers.

Overheal wrote: »

That you have to now conjure these straw man arguments says a lot about how indefensible your position is.

:rolleyes:

Overheal

nullzero wrote: »

That's your interpretation of what these experts are saying. The word "high" isn't used in any context.

At this stage it's probably more reasonable to put this down to a difference of opinion, you don't have any absolute proof to back up what you are saying and those saying he was high cannot prove their opinion to be correct either.

As you said, round and round we go.

I agree, of course. And so did the 538 article, it's a matter for the court case to suss out, Chauvin will use 'excited delirium' as an angle in his defense. That's all it boils down to here and now.

AbusesToilets

Overheal wrote: »

"All the experts I spoke to see no evidence of excited delirium in Floyd’s case. In the video of his death, Melinek pointed out, you can clearly see that he is not sweating excessively, nor is he dressed inappropriately. He communicates clearly with officers and bystanders and is coherent even as he is pleading for his life. But the fact that one of the officers at the scene suggested this diagnosis, and that legal scholars believe it will come up in Chauvin’s defense, demonstrates how medical analysis can be used in cases like this. And how disagreement among forensic pathologists about how to describe the evidence in a case can muddy the legal waters."

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-two-autopsies-of-george-floyd-arent-as-different-as-they-seem/

Experts making debatable conclusions about his sweat levels from a bodycam, versus a medical report and video evidence of Floyd acting and speaking in an intoxicated manner.

Hmmm