Meanwhile in Dijon, France

ArchXStanton

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Cheap labour and consumers to keep the old wheels of capitalism moving.

What's the end result? another soulless, consumerist ****hole with no social cohesion

Queasy Tadpole

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem though with France is that it's mutual. Black French are just as likely to be racist against black Africans, or against white French. And the African migrants are racist towards everyone, along with a growth in violence/crime especially in the South. I used to spend a lot of time in Montpelier (Provence), and I wouldn't go back anymore because it's no longer a particularly safe destination anymore, with the black gangs. I have a little holiday house in the countryside, and I avoid the population centers because it's simply not safe in the evenings... While the white french would contribute to that feeling of danger, the truth is that it's the groups of black people, and the approaches by two Black guys together pushing for change, smokes, etc that are truly intimidating.

With Germany it really depends on where you are. I lived near Frankfurt for a while, and the Turkish community is cut off. By their own choice. A complete change of language, fashions, and customs once you enter their community, and white people are only tolerated at the fringes. Go any deeper, and you'll be forcibly guided out. I found most Germans to be more tolerant rather than accepting of other races, with the exception of Asians, who are accepted pretty much everywhere.

Integration is only possible when there is the intention by all parties. Many Black people have zero interest in integrating and/or getting employment. France, with it's tax system and dislike of renters, is a hard place to get set up for anything longer than a few months... that in itself isn't about racism, but economics, but it's going to make life very difficult for those who arrive with little, and lacking in education/language (not all Africans speak french well enough to work)

Very true I agree with what you said. France has now changed it's tax system to be more like here but yes, it is very inhospitable to migrants.


Great post, yes Germans are like that but like I said, I felt a more cohesive society in Germany than in France. The French make the lines of society quite clear.

marklazarcovic

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Cheap labour and consumers to keep the old wheels of capitalism moving.

That would imply most will be gainfully employed paying taxes,to benefit the country ,when does that start to happen?

Junkyard Tom

They're French.

double jobbing

Serious question. Does France, Germany, Spain, Scandinavia have an indigenous underclass the same as Ireland and the UK has? Like, a large cohort of white youths who leave school early/ barely attend, have minimal interaction with the job market, spend their days getting up at noon to drink and smoke joints all day, push out their first kids in their late teens to mid 20's and expect immediate housing from the state, cause trouble on public transport etc etc etc. Is there actually a large white underclass in these places that does this? Because every time you read about any sort of crime and social disorder over there it always seems to be people of foreign background.

Like, we obviously do in Ireland, and while the black gangs have been making news recently I'd be interested in seeing statistics that show they are disproportionately doing it compared to our natives.

https://www.oberstown.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Oberstown-Final-Characteristics-of-Young-People-Report-2019.pdf

3 out of 85 detainees were black, probably not majorly out of kilter with their percent of working class youth in the country. Stats of who is dealt with by the juvenile liason office for more minor offences would give a better picture, seeing as you have to be a particularly bad ****er to end up in Oberstown.

quokula

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

One thing I can't get my head around is this...

Even if you are the most liberal 'person of the world' no borders type of individual you must see the trouble immigration is causing around the world.

You must see it only gets worse, not better.

You must see that what we are doing is never going to work.

I saw a video yesterday of African origin youths in Tallaght running amok in a huge crowd. It's worrying and it's not the Ireland I know or want. It's completely alien to the country I know.

Why are we importing this? What do we gain?

You don't have to be "liberal", you just have to be capable of the slightest bit of critical thinking to know that isolated stories racists dredge up of individual incidents from other countries in order to validate their twisted worldview are completely statistically insignificant.

All of the real statistics show zero causation between immigration and crime. There are billions of people on earth, hundreds of thousands of crimes get committed all over the world, if you're a rabid racist who purposely ignores all the crimes committed by certain people and highlights all the crimes committed by certain other people, you're going to come to the entirely false conclusion that multiculturism causes crime.

There are many, many academic research papers on these kind of issues and the conclusions are always the same, immigration has either no effect or a net reduction in crime levels. Here is one such paper: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1745-9125.12175

That particular paper is American. It's hard to come by Irish statistics as the method of recording has changed, but my experience is certainly that Ireland is a lot safer today than it was when I was growing up when immigration was pretty much non existent. I'm not sure you've ever been to Tallaght if you think rowdy youths are a new thing introduced by immigrants.

A little reminder of the crime free haven that Dublin was prior to immigration: https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-crime-state-papers-2494610-Dec2015/

TomTomTim

quokula wrote: »

All of the real statistics show zero causation between immigration and crime.

Shows us these stats then

double jobbing

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

One thing I can't get my head around is this...

Even if you are the most liberal 'person of the world' no borders type of individual you must see the trouble immigration is causing around the world.

You must see it only gets worse, not better.

Left wing republicans decry the pseudofacist early days of FG while ignoring the fact the IRA were actual Nazi collaborators.

Irish left wingers decry American and British imperialism but forget that the USSR was a colonial power, annexing the Baltic states and fighting its own Vietnam in Afghanistan.

"Anti fascists" abhor Holocaust denial but partake in historical revisionism themselves, labeling Soviet and Chinese genocides as conspiracy theories.

Left wingers slate American cops doing tough jobs in tough neghbourhoods where children in their early teens are routinely carrying guns yet police brutality doesn't make their radar when it comes to Tianamen Square and Venezuela.

Left wingers aren't very smart, frankly.

Kermit.de.frog

quokula wrote: »

You don't have to be "liberal", you just have to be capable of the slightest bit of critical thinking to know that isolated stories racists dredge up of individual incidents from other countries in order to validate their twisted worldview are completely statistically insignificant.

All of the real statistics show zero causation between immigration and crime. There are billions of people on earth, hundreds of thousands of crimes get committed all over the world, if you're a rabid racist who purposely ignores all the crimes committed by certain people and highlights all the crimes committed by certain other people, you're going to come to the entirely false conclusion that multiculturism causes crime.

There are many, many academic research papers on these kind of issues and the conclusions are always the same, immigration has either no effect or a net reduction in crime levels. Here is one such paper: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1745-9125.12175

That particular paper is American. It's hard to come by Irish statistics as the method of recording has changed, but my experience is certainly that Ireland is a lot safer today than it was when I was growing up when immigration was pretty much non existent. I'm not sure you've ever been to Tallaght if you think rowdy youths are a new thing introduced by immigrants.

A little reminder of the crime free haven that Dublin was prior to immigration: https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-crime-state-papers-2494610-Dec2015/

In a sentence, what are we gaining out of all of this?

quokula

TomTomTim wrote: »

Shows us these stats then

I literally linked a research paper in my post with stats in it. The poster above me linked to some stats too. They're not hard to find.

quokula

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

In a sentence, what are we gaining out of all of this?

Out of all what? I had the opportunity to work abroad and improve my skills because the country I went to wasn't run by a bunch of gibbering idiots intent on closing their border to all foreigners. I'm white though so I know you don't count me as an immigrant. I'm an "expat"

I also go to meet many great people of dozens of different nationalities and backgrounds during that time, which was a great experience. And of course all of those people enriched the lives of the other people they met, along with their contribution to paying taxes, creating jobs etc etc

What's to be gained by artificially drawing lines on the ground and not letting certain people cross them because you don't like the look of them?

Queasy Tadpole

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

I have never been to Sweden yet I have lived in both France and Germany. Most races, cultures, identities are intertwined in Germany. The native Germans have a distaste for certain immigrants, most notable the Turkish but they live and work side by side without any outward issues.

In France the native white French are quite racist towards any immigration and especially to anyone with black skin. You can integrate better as a non French speaking white person than as a fluent black person. It's insane since there are entire regions in France with nothing but French speaking born and raised black population. Racism is everywhere it's disgusting.

You dont think this racism goes both ways?Maybe some just doesnt want to be integrated?Maybe they just want to follow the laws and culture of their own country no matter what?
The whole racisms have gone beyond ridicoulus if you ask me,i worked in Africa and was told to get the feck home cause i was white and stole their job.
I wonder what would have happened if i done same to them here in Ireland??
Problem here in Europe its to easy to be labeled an racists no matter.

TomTomTim

quokula wrote: »

I literally linked a research paper in my post with stats in it. The poster above me linked to some stats too. They're not hard to find.

You said "all of" which would imply that there's more than one study that you've based your opinion on. You linked one, from a different continent.

Kermit.de.frog

quokula wrote: »

Out of all what? I had the opportunity to work abroad and improve my skills because the country I went to wasn't run by a bunch of gibbering idiots intent on closing their border to all foreigners. I'm white though so I know you don't count me as an immigrant. I'm an "expat"

I also go to meet many great people of dozens of different nationalities and backgrounds during that time, which was a great experience. And of course all of those people enriched the lives of the other people they met, along with their contribution to paying taxes, creating jobs etc etc

What's to be gained by artificially drawing lines on the ground and not letting certain people cross them because you don't like the look of them?

I have worked abroad too, and met many wonderful people from different cultures.

Utterly irrelevant.

So I will ask again, in a sentence what's the big gain for Ireland here?

It seems to me we are on the road to social disorder, a London style gang culture, roaming black and asian gangs on our streets and i'm struggling to see what the upside is.

It's rinse and repeat all over Europe.

It has not worked as an experiment. It will never work no matter how well intentioned you like to think you are.

In your sentence please avoid facile nonsense words like "enrichment".

Absolute nonsense.

Tell us what the big gain is in a sentence.

quokula

TomTomTim wrote: »

You said "all of" which would imply that there's more than one study that you've based your opinion on. You linked one, from a different continent.

I linked an actual peer reviewed research paper. I specifically said Irish stats are harder to come by but linked some new articles pointing out the higher crime rate in Dublin in the 80s prior to immigration, which correlates with my own personal experience growing up in Dublin.

Here's another research paper

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/(SICI)1520-6688(199822)17:3%3C457::AID-PAM4%3E3.0.CO;2-F

Here's some stats from an Irish detention centre that another poster linked which should the large majority of those detained were Irish, with about 4% of African background.

https://www.oberstown.com/wp-content...eport-2019.pdf

I'm not sure how many different studies and sets of statistics you want.

quokula

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I have worked abroad too, and met many wonderful people from different cultures.

Utterly irrelevant.

So I will ask again, in a sentence what's the big gain for Ireland here?

It seems to me we are on the road to social disorder, a London style gang culture, roaming black and asian gangs on our streets and i'm struggling to see what the upside is.

It's rinse and repeat all over Europe.

It has not worked as an experiment. It will never work no matter how well intentioned you like to think you are.

In your sentence please avoid facile nonsense words like "enrichment".

Absolute nonsense.

Tell us what the big gain is in a sentence.

You benefitted from working abroad and you don't understand how working abroad can benefit people?

Cordell

quokula wrote: »

You don't have to be "liberal", you just have to be capable of the slightest bit of critical thinking to know that isolated stories racists dredge up of individual incidents from other countries in order to validate their twisted worldview are completely statistically insignificant.

All of the real statistics show zero causation between immigration and crime. There are billions of people on earth, hundreds of thousands of crimes get committed all over the world, if you're a rabid racist who purposely ignores all the crimes committed by certain people and highlights all the crimes committed by certain other people, you're going to come to the entirely false conclusion that multiculturism causes crime.

There are many, many academic research papers on these kind of issues and the conclusions are always the same, immigration has either no effect or a net reduction in crime levels. Here is one such paper: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1745-9125.12175

That particular paper is American. It's hard to come by Irish statistics as the method of recording has changed, but my experience is certainly that Ireland is a lot safer today than it was when I was growing up when immigration was pretty much non existent. I'm not sure you've ever been to Tallaght if you think rowdy youths are a new thing introduced by immigrants.

A little reminder of the crime free haven that Dublin was prior to immigration: https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-crime-state-papers-2494610-Dec2015/

https://www.reddit.com/r/randomcorrelations/comments/d6fx0z/pirates_vs_global_warming/

You don't have the required statistical data to prove causality. You don't have a control set, you don't have a control France that's identical with the real France except with zero immigration.

What you have, in this particular case, is 2 gangs of non french ethnics at war, and this is clearly caused by immigration.

iebamm2580

The people working are not the problem.

biko

What is the connection between some Irish having fun working abroad and Chechen gangs fighting Algerians in France?

Doesn't immigrant gang wars exist because some people made friends in Sydney?

quokula

quokula wrote: »

You don't have to be "liberal", you just have to be capable of the slightest bit of critical thinking to know that isolated stories racists dredge up of individual incidents from other countries in order to validate their twisted worldview are completely statistically insignificant.

When you look at countrywide issues, yes, you would be correct, however, when you look at local problems then there can be correlations drawn between the immigration and a rise in crime.

Look at any of the French Mediterranean port cities, and while there was always organised crime, there has been a sharp increase in violence between migrant gangs and the more traditional groups, which spills out to affect other people. Just as when you look at individual cities with large populations of migrants living nearby (with limited social mobility), there are increases in crime/violence. Marseilles being a good example of both.

The problem is that western governments have been pushing the benefits of multiculturalism for decades, and downplaying the dangers, which results in less funding for papers/research which would highlight the increases in crime resulting from migrants. Often migrant issues are merged with the problems of established organised crime, with immigration being ignored as a factor. When papers are issued, they're funded by right leaning political groups which means they're immediately discounted as being biased.

Kermit.de.frog

quokula wrote: »

You benefitted from working abroad and you don't understand how working abroad can benefit people?

Again you fail to provide an upside, you actually go backward because 'working' is the operative word in your sentence.

Great, so the gang youths of those immigrants who may or may not have been previously working will one day be upstanding contributing employees?

It's just a temporary interruption in their lives then and they don't face systemic unemployment and criminal records.

So we'll be different to London, Paris, Lyon, Munich, Birmingham, Manchester...

It's just a phase is what your saying.

quokula

Cordell wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/randomcorrelations/comments/d6fx0z/pirates_vs_global_warming/

You don't have the required statistical data to prove causality. You don't have a control set, you don't have a control France that's identical with the real France except with zero immigration.

What you have, in this particular case, is 2 gangs of non french ethnics at war, and this is clearly caused by immigration.

You seem to be very muddled in your argument. Given that I was pointing out that there is no causation between immigration and crime. Nor is there even correlation. The graph you linked is not exactly disproving that.

quokula

quokula wrote: »

Out of all what? I had the opportunity to work abroad and improve my skills because the country I went to wasn't run by a bunch of gibbering idiots intent on closing their border to all foreigners. I'm white though so I know you don't count me as an immigrant. I'm an "expat"

You don't need to be white to be an expat. I'm also an expat with many friends who are expats (that I met while living abroad)... most of them aren't white.

Being an expat generally means having a standard of education and experience to allow you to travel and work abroad. Work being the important thing here. A large percentage of migrants coming into Europe wouldn't have the educational backgrounds and experience to be expats.

What's to be gained by artificially drawing lines on the ground and not letting certain people cross them because you don't like the look of them?

Stability. That's something worth preserving. And people would be rejected based on their accomplishments or lack thereof. That they can positively contribute to the economic and social structure of the country... Not simply that they can support themselves. That shouldn't be the limitation. That they have the skills/education to elevate themselves without significant investment by the target country

MontgomeryClift

quokula wrote: »

There are many, many academic research papers on these kind of issues and the conclusions are always the same, immigration has either no effect or a net reduction in crime levels. Here is one such paper: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1745-9125.12175

I've read that research and it's trash. They start at 1990 because they know that during that time there was a drop in crime as a result of the massive crackdown on the crime that resulted from the relaxation of immigration rules in the mid '60s.

We can take one state, California, with high inward migration, to see the true picture. Just look at the graph:

https://www.ppic.org/publication/crime-trends-in-california/

Cordell

quokula wrote: »

You seem to be very muddled in your argument. Given that I was pointing out that there is no causation between immigration and crime. Nor is there even correlation. The graph you linked is not exactly disproving that.

Exactly, from a statistical standpoint is difficult to prove either way. There are multiple factors influencing crime and they all work together at the same time and it's difficult to isolate and analyze just one. This also makes it very prone to confirmation bias.

quokula

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't need to be white to be an expat. I'm also an expat with many friends who are expats (that I met while living abroad)... most of them aren't white.

Being an expat generally means having a standard of education and experience to allow you to travel and work abroad. Work being the important thing here. A large percentage of migrants coming into Europe wouldn't have the educational backgrounds and experience to be expats.



Stability. That's something worth preserving. And people would be rejected based on their accomplishments or lack thereof. That they can positively contribute to the economic and social structure of the country...

I know the technical definition of expat but that's not how it's used 99% of the time. You don't know whether someone is working or not by just looking at them, but I certainly know what reasoning people used without having that knowledge to classify them as "expat" (good) or "immigrant" (bad) - I've seen this first hand with friends who are from Australia, New Zealand etc vs friends who are from Lebanon, Jordan etc doing exactly the same work.

Treppen

No different to the kinehan hutch feud, nobody talking about multiculturalism there!

RocketRaccoon

Treppen wrote: »

No different to the kinehan hutch feud, nobody talking about multiculturalism there!

You often see hundreds of members of those gangs roaming around with weapons drawn burning cities?

facehugger99

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

One thing I can't get my head around is this...

Even if you are the most liberal 'person of the world' no borders type of individual you must see the trouble immigration is causing around the world.

You must see it only gets worse, not better.

You must see that what we are doing is never going to work.

I saw a video yesterday of African origin youths in Tallaght running amok in a huge crowd. It's worrying and it's not the Ireland I know or want. It's completely alien to the country I know.

Why are we importing this? What do we gain?

People to pay for your pension.

quokula

Cordell wrote: »

Exactly, from a statistical standpoint is difficult to prove either way. There are multiple factors influencing crime and they all work together at the same time and it's difficult to isolate and analyze just one. This also makes it very prone to confirmation bias.

I was replying to someone who claimed immigration causes crime.

I replied pointing out that there has been lots of studies that show no correlation between immigration and crime.

You replied saying correlation doesn't mean causation.

I know that, but in this case there isn't even correlation, and across multiple studies there is most commonly a slight inverse correlation. Which, you are correct, doesn't necessarily prove immigration lowers crime.

But I think we can agree that there is no evidence whatsoever of a link between immigration and crime. It would therefore be very strange to assume one based on that lack of evidence.