Higher taxes inevitable because of COVID19

10000maniacs

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/coronavirus/tds-to-be-told-that-higher-taxes-are-necessary-to-offset-the-economic-fallout-from-covid-19/ar-BB15xP7G?ocid=msedgdhp

Well, the middle ground are already taxed to the rafters as a consequence of the economic fallout of the last crash in 2008.
Simply, we cannot afford those 50,000 social houses. Building those houses is living beyond our means. All that Green goody goody crap is living beyond our means too. We can't afford it.
Any views?

El_Duderino 09

10000maniacs wrote: »

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/coronavirus/tds-to-be-told-that-higher-taxes-are-necessary-to-offset-the-economic-fallout-from-covid-19/ar-BB15xP7G?ocid=msedgdhp

Well, the middle ground are already taxed to the rafters as a consequence of the economic fallout of the last crash in 2008.
Simply, we cannot afford those 50,000 social houses. Building those houses is living beyond our means. All that Green goody goody crap is living beyond our means too. We can't afford it.
Any views?

If the current government doesn't build a significant number of houses during its term, it'll be out on its ear, bags and baggage and it'll be a SF simple majority next time around.

I know the middle well taxed what about the wealthy? If the coi try needs more tax revenue, they're the simple and obvious ones to tax as far as I'm concerned.

I would have thought raising tax would not be the way they'll go though.

10000maniacs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If the current government doesn't build a significant number of houses during its term, it'll be out on its ear, bags and baggage and it'll be a SF simple majority next time around.

I know the middle well taxed what about the wealthy? If the coi try needs more tax revenue, they're the simple and obvious ones to tax as far as I'm concerned.

I would have thought raising tax would not be the way they'll go though.

The "wealthy" won't cover the shortfall, its the middle ground who are already struggling who will have to pay this bill.

antimatterx

We have high levels of tax as it is. We don't exactly get quality services for it. I suspect a higher level of "under the table" work if taxes are increased.

CageWager

The bar for being considered “wealthy” in this country is extremely low.

Shefwedfan

Tax the poor!! sure they dont need it anyway

El_Duderino 09

antimatterx wrote: »

We have high levels of tax as it is. We don't exactly get quality services for it. I suspect a higher level of "under the table" work if taxes are increased.

If you tax labour then cash-in-hand tax evasion will surely increase. That's a different thing to taxing wealth. Taxing wealth seems the more sensible of the two options.

10000maniacs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If you tax labour then cash-in-hand tax evasion will surely increase. That's a different thing to taxing wealth. Taxing wealth seems the more sensible of the two options.

Would you describe "wealth" as people who own their own house?
Believe me, they are the very ones who can't afford an increase in taxes.

Shefwedfan

Start with
Stop all childrens allowance after 3 kids. Only going forward, if they have existing then continue
Allow county council to take rent at source, stop the millions of euro wasted on people who wont pay rent
Remove the christmas bonus. If you want a bonus for unemployed, get a f**king job.

El_Duderino 09

CageWager wrote: »

The bar for being considered “wealthy” in this country is extremely low.

Well, the bar for having the most basic form of wealth (a home) is extremely high and only getting further out of reach of normal young people.

Inheritance is against the very concept of meritocracy. That's a potential avenue.

Geuze

antimatterx wrote: »

We have high levels of tax as it is. We don't exactly get quality services for it. I suspect a higher level of "under the table" work if taxes are increased.

Overall taxes are not high in Ireland.

The overall level of taxes is middling.

You can argue, yes, that we don't get great value for money for our taxes, ok.

But overall taxes are not high.

Bobeagleburger

There'll definitely be some sort of covid tax. The borrowing nerds to be repaid.

Wanderer78

10000maniacs wrote:

Well, the middle ground are already taxed to the rafters as a consequence of the economic fallout of the last crash in 2008. Simply, we cannot afford those 50,000 social houses. Building those houses is living beyond our means. All that Green goody goody crap is living beyond our means too. We can't afford it. Any views?

With rates at record lows, it's a perfect time to borrow and get building, we desperately need them and to stimulate the economy. We re not living beyond our means, that's just that normal economic conservative nonsense and frankly dangerous thinking

El_Duderino 09

10000maniacs wrote: »

Would you describe "wealth" as people who own their own house?
Believe me, they are the very ones who can't afford an increase in taxes.

I consider a house to be a form of wealth - it is a form of wealth. But I don't think I want to tax it. A second house or holiday house, is certainly wealth. There's absolutely no need for the notion of inheritance so I'd certainly do away with that. It's a longer term strategy though.

Geuze

Tax revenue is falling at the moment.

As the economy recovers, tax revenues will rise.

Is that what you mean by higher taxes?


Or I suspect you mean that tax rates will have to be increased due to COVID?

El_Duderino 09

Wanderer78 wrote: »

With rates at record lows, it's a perfect time to borrow and get building, we desperately need them and to stimulate the economy. We re not living beyond our means, that's just that normal economic conservative nonsense and frankly dangerous thinking

Yeah now's the time to do it. Plenty of people will be in need of the work and it's work that needs to be done. Borrowing while money is cheap means now is the perfect time to do it.

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

With rates at record lows, it's a perfect time to borrow and get building, we desperately need them and to stimulate the economy. We re not living beyond our means, that's just that normal economic conservative nonsense and frankly dangerous thinking

We started 2020 with a huge public debt.

We are borrowing during 2020, possibly up to 30bn.

That is a stimulus.

You seem to suggest we should do something, that is already happening.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

With rates at record lows, it's a perfect time to borrow and get building, we desperately need them and to stimulate the economy. We re not living beyond our means, that's just that normal economic conservative nonsense and frankly dangerous thinking

Well said.

10000maniacs

Wanderer78 wrote: »

With rates at record lows, it's a perfect time to borrow and get building, we desperately need them and to stimulate the economy. We re not living beyond our means, that's just that normal economic conservative nonsense and frankly dangerous thinking

We simply can't afford the €10 billion+ build costs with a economic depression around the corner that will hit everyone like a bullet in the next six months.
It's the calm before the storm. Enjoy the summer.

Geuze

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I consider a house to be a form of wealth - it is a form of wealth. But I don't think I want to tax it. A second house or holiday house, is certainly wealth. There's absolutely no need for the notion of inheritance so I'd certainly do away with that. It's a longer term strategy though.

It is widely agreed that property taxes are sensible.

Maybe not politically popular.

But very sensible, and superior, compared to alternative taxes.

El_Duderino 09

10000maniacs wrote: »

We simply can't afford the €10 billion+ build costs with a economic depression around the corner that will hit everyone like a bullet in the next six months.
It's the calm before the storm. Enjoy the summer.

What do you think should happen?

Is this about to become a dole bashing thread?

10000maniacs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What do you think should happen?

Is this about to become a dole bashing thread?

You brought up the dole, not me.

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote:

We started 2020 with a huge public debt.

Rising public debt is the least of our worries, rising private and corporate debt is where the problem lies, if defaults and non performing loans increase in these sectors, expect our old banking issues to resurface, our rising deficit will be the least of our worries, as it could be the only game in town to get our economies going again, this is gonna get interesting but maybe a little scary

El_Duderino 09

Geuze wrote: »

It is widely agreed that property taxes are sensible.

Maybe not politically popular.

But very sensible, and superior, compared to alternative taxes.

I'd agree. By "alternative taxes" you mean conventional taxes like tax on labour and tax on transactions. But we so rarely talk about tax on income earned through having wealth.

If you rely on labour to earn a living, you're eligible for lots of tax. Of you earn a living from inherited wealth and investment, then you're eligible for lower tax (before you get into tax avoidance).

Yeah, wealth and inheritance tax is the way to go. Not popular at all though.

Wanderer78

10000maniacs wrote:

We simply can't afford the €10 billion+ build costs with a economic depression around the corner that will hit everyone like a bullet in the next six months. It's the calm before the storm. Enjoy the summer.

So don't borrow, don't do anything, and this will stimulate the economy by.....

El_Duderino 09

10000maniacs wrote: »

You brought up the dole, not me.

OK. What do you think should happen?

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Before they do the usual thing and tax everyone to death can they address the amount of people getting social welfare. Do we really need to keep bringing in people from Africa to sit on the dole here?

Get rid of the Christmas bonus too.

There I just saved billions.

Pa ElGrande

The current Irish system does not have much more scope for increased taxes, otherwise it will be another tax revolt such as happened with Irish Water. This is what surprises me about the blind calls for more carbon tax, are the politicians not blind to what will happen once you directly increase the cost of living?

The most likely outcome is an inflationary wave due to a combination of increased costs of production and distribution combined with a reduced supply of goods, and the expansion of government debt (assuming they don't default, possibly some governments will forcibly convert bonds to longer maturation.) The ECB has been bailing out member states bond markets for several years now and they are onboard with the EU Green New Deal as cover for monetary expansion.

10000maniacs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. What do you think should happen?

Don't build those 50,000 houses on borrowed money for starters. That would be a good starting point.

El_Duderino 09

10000maniacs wrote: »

Don't build those 50,000 houses on borrowed money for starters. That would be a good starting point.

OK you said that in the OP. Anything else?

Wanderer78

10000maniacs wrote:

Don't build those 50,000 houses on borrowed money for starters. That would be a good starting point.

So don't stimulate the economy, should make recovery easy alright!