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Higher taxes inevitable because of COVID19

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    #62
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,385 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    You don't need to be in power to make idiotic economic statements.
    At least FG made a reasonable if flawed attempt to get us out of the huge hole we were in 10 years ago. FF dug that particular hole.

    Ah, blaming a party who've never been in power is probably close to a definition of avoiding the point.


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    #63
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,385 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Geuze wrote: »
    My main income is wages. Out of the wages, I save.

    I acquire financial assets, e.g. shares.

    I pay my MTR on any dividends from the shares.

    Let's say the shares rise in value, and I sell and make a gain.

    Should the capital gain be taxed at?

    (1) zero
    (2) less than my MTR on income
    (3) the same as my MTR on income

    It should be taxed at least the same as any other income. Definitely not lower than other income.

    Why wouldn't it be? It's income.


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    #64
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Why would Ireland need the IMF when rates are low and bond issues are oversubscribed?

    Things might change...do you not see that? In fact things will most certainly change.

    I am not saying we will need the IMF but the economic fallout of Covid has not even started. It wont even be fully understood until March/April 2021.

    I suspect many EU countries will be looking for bailouts in 2021 and 2022.


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    #65
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    It's not income.

    It is a one-off capital gain.

    I think some countries do tax one-off capital gains at the same rates as income tax, although I'm not sure.


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    #66
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    It should be taxed at least the same as any other income. Definitely not lower than other income.

    Why wouldn't it be? It's income.

    It's not income.

    Income is wages + rents + interest + profits.

    Income is taxed by income tax.


    Capital gains are made from disposing assets, and are taxed by CGT.


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    #67
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,385 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I don't. I actually think we need a big housebuilding programme, most of the money spent on this will go back into the domestic economy, and generate additional economic activity. Now is the right time, with the economy on the floor. Otherwise we borrow money and pump it into more welfare programmes.

    I'd agree with that. Borrow the money and build the houses we need. But if we need to tax, tax wealth instead of labour.


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    #68
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,557 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    Capital gains tax is 33%.

    Tax on dividends is either 20% or 40% depending on your tax rate.


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    #69
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    dont worry about the additional taxes lads.

    once the referendum on a right to a home is passed, our days of paying rent or mortgage are over.


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    #70
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,385 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Geuze wrote: »
    It's not income.

    Income is wages + rents + interest + profits.

    Income is taxed by income tax.


    Capital gains are made from disposing assets, and are taxed by CGT.

    Yeah. And CGT is lower than tax on labour. Madness. It should be taxed at least as highly as labour.


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    #71
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    dont worry about the additional taxes lads.

    once the referendum on a right to a home is passed, our days of paying rent or mortgage are over.

    Yeah I didn't delve too deep into that one. What is the referendum about? It seems idiotic. Green idea?


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    #72
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,557 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah. And CGT is lower than tax on labour. Madness. It should be taxed at least as highly as labour.

    Why?

    It's higher than than lower paye rate btw


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    #73
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 82,826 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    There was an episode of Nationwide on last week with some footage of cross border shopping, the VAT rate here was 35% at the time, smugglers paradise.


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    #74
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    I'd agree with that. Borrow the money and build the houses we need. But if we need to tax, tax wealth instead of labour.

    By taxing wealth, do you mean increasing:

    stamp duty
    CGT
    CAT
    LPT



    or do you mean introducing a new wealth tax?


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    #75
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah. And CGT is lower than tax on labour. Madness. It should be taxed at least as highly as labour.

    I will be honest, I haven't read the economic theory on CGT.

    What does Mirrlees have to say?

    https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/mirrleesreview/design/ch15.pdf


    https://www.ifs.org.uk/docs/taxbydesign.pdf


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    #76
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,920 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    Snow Garden wrote: »
    Yeah I didn't delve too deep into that one. What is the referendum about? It seems idiotic. Green idea?

    Fergus Finley lobbied for it. I think The Greens and the Shinners are pushing for it.


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    #77
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,557 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    Geuze wrote: »
    By taxing wealth, do you mean increasing:

    stamp duty
    CGT
    CAT
    LPT



    or do you mean introducing a new wealth tax?

    Taxing wealth. Sinn Fein reckon it'll solve everything...


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    #78
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    Fergus (money tree in the back garden) Finley lobbied for it. I think The Greens and the Shinners are pushing for it.

    Oh right. Meaningless so. Trying to steal some thunder from SF.
    For 'thunder' read 'idiocy'.


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    #79
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,920 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    Snow Garden wrote: »
    Oh right. Meaningless so. Trying to steal some thunder from SF.
    For 'thunder' read 'idiocy'.
    But I think it was one of the conditions of The Greens entering talks.


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    #80
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    6 wrote: »
    Taxing wealth. Sinn Fein reckon it'll solve everything...

    The SF GE2020 manifesto suggests cutting wealth taxes:


    LPT to be abolished = -485m
    CAT up 3% to 36% = +45m
    new 1% wealth tax on top 1% of wealthy people, on net wealth over 1m = +89m


    So, if you include LPT as a wealth tax, they suggest cutting wealth taxes.


    https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2020/SF_GE2020_Manifesto.pdf


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    #81
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    But I think it was one of the conditions of The Greens entering talks.

    Fair enough. Meaningless idea from the Greens too.

    A waste of money too unless there are some genuine referenda planned.

    Future votes will need to be done using all the new Covid rules (distancing, sanitizing, checking temps etc). They might need 2-3 days to complete the voting.


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    #82
    landofthetree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    Downturns in Ireland will always be worse than other countries because we simply never tackle public spending.

    It has increased by 12 billion since 2016.

    Then the media and the left claim it's austerity.


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    #83
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    landofthetree wrote: »
    Downturns in Ireland will always be worse than other countries because we simply never tackle public spending.

    It has increased by 12 billion since 2016.

    Then the media and the left claim it's austerity.

    rising private debt has caused far more damage to our country than rising public debt and spending

    theres plenty of evidence to support, austerity is a clusterfcuk of a policy, and causes far more damage than good


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    #84
    landofthetree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    rising private debt has caused far more damage to our country than rising public debt and spending

    theres plenty of evidence to support, austerity is a clusterfcuk of a policy, and causes far more damage than good

    A government with a debt of 215billion and a deficit of 20billion+ doesn't get to decide if it will have austerity or not.

    Who they borrow the money from will decide.


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    #85
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    landofthetree wrote: »
    A government with a debt of 215billion and a deficit of 20billion+ doesn't get to decide if it will have austerity or not.

    Who they borrow the money from will decide.

    austerity doesnt work, its counter intuitive, it stifles growth and recovery, forcing money creation out to the private sector, increasing our private and corporate debts


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    #86
    thegetawaycar
    Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭thegetawaycar


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    austerity doesnt work, its counter intuitive, it stifles growth and recovery, forcing money creation out to the private sector, increasing our private and corporate debts

    While I'm no fan of austerity, if the only viable lender puts conditions on the money that include some forms of austerity there is no other option.

    We currently can borrow at pretty much 0 and I'd be suggesting we do that and pay off some debt that is due soon but also use some to invest in infrastructure when the recession hits, get the construction industry moving and costs should come down if there is a recession.

    Cut social welfare outgoings and HAP payments (hotel rentings etc...) by building public housing and collection of rent at source. No selling of public housing stock.


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    #87
    ZeroThreat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭ZeroThreat


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    rising private debt has caused far more damage to our country than rising public debt and spending

    theres plenty of evidence to support, austerity is a clusterfcuk of a policy, and causes far more damage than good

    I expect a wave of privatisations any anything not nailed down in the state being sold off over the next couple of years.


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    #88
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    rising private debt has caused far more damage to our country than rising public debt and spending

    theres plenty of evidence to support, austerity is a clusterfcuk of a policy, and causes far more damage than good

    Rather than using foul and boorish language, can you explain how the fiscal deficit can be reduced during 2021 and 2022?

    I hope that the current massive fiscal stimulus (PUP, TWSS, huge health exp, business supports) combined with the expansionary monetary policy (e.g. PEPP), should mean there is little need for austerity.


    By "austerity" here, I mean direct increases in tax rates, direct cuts in nominal exp.


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    #89
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,319 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    landofthetree wrote: »
    Downturns in Ireland will always be worse than other countries because we simply never tackle public spending.

    It has increased by 12 billion since 2016.

    Then the media and the left claim it's austerity.

    Everyone in Ireland is in favour of counter-cyclical spending when it's a downturn.

    Exhibit A:
    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    austerity doesnt work, its counter intuitive, it stifles growth and recovery, forcing money creation out to the private sector, increasing our private and corporate debts


    You'll have the very same lads bitching and moaning if it was ever suggested we throttle back on spending during a boom though.


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    #90
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    thegetawaycar wrote: »

    We currently can borrow at pretty much 0 and I'd be suggesting we do that and pay off some debt that is due soon but also use some to invest in infrastructure when the recession hits, get the construction industry moving and costs should come down if there is a recession.

    We have, are, and will be borrowing huge amounts this year.

    No need to suggest it, we are doing it already.

    When the recession hits? We are in it now, it is happening now.


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    #91
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    austerity doesnt work, its counter intuitive, it stifles growth and recovery, forcing money creation out to the private sector, increasing our private and corporate debts

    So how do you explain the massive decrease in private debt during the last recession?

    You and your ilk who believe in magic money trees are the reason we have a three-legged chair for a government.

    It's past time false information and manipulation
    like yours is banned from social media.


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