Higher taxes inevitable because of COVID19

El_Duderino 09

6 wrote: »

Why?

It's higher than than lower paye rate btw

Right. But that's a bit of a red herring, isn't it? I wonder what % of calital gain is made by people in the lower tax bracket? Unless they don't have much "income" and just live off the gains of their capital. And that would be very perverse, wouldn't it?

El_Duderino 09

Geuze wrote: »

By taxing wealth, do you mean increasing:

stamp duty
CGT
CAT
LPT



or do you mean introducing a new wealth tax?

I dont mean increasing tax on a home. But if have no problem with hefty tax on second home and similar aspects of wealth. Nobody is saying someone can't have a second home, but in a time of housing being such a huge obstacle for normal people, a second home should be taxed heavily.

I also mean increasing CGT to at least the level of tax on labour.

And I'd get rid of the notion of inheritance. We should at least want to live in a meritocracy and the entire notion of inheritance means you an inherit the fruits of someone else's merit. How mad is that?

Without inheritance it might mean people would prefer to rent than buy houses and it would likely change the market. But that's not a problem.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Start with
Stop all childrens allowance after 3 kids. Only going forward, if they have existing then continue
Allow county council to take rent at source, stop the millions of euro wasted on people who wont pay rent
Remove the christmas bonus. If you want a bonus for unemployed, get a f**king job.

I agree with most of your points, but would like to keep the bonus for pensioners, long term illness/disability, carers, etc. Definitely get rid of it for unemployed.

KyussB

Geuze wrote: »

We started 2020 with a huge public debt.

We are borrowing during 2020, possibly up to 30bn.

That is a stimulus.

You seem to suggest we should do something, that is already happening.

In fairness, a stimulus must be big enough to boost the economy - that stimulus was just damage control to prevent the economy from cratering even harder.

A stimulus must be big enough to return us to Full Employment ASAP - we should be kept at Full Employment 100% of the time (excluding job churn of course), even if it requires the state to find work for people.


We've gone through 10+ years of unacceptable levels of unemployment, including long-term and very-long-term unemployment - as a social and economic issue, it is unjust to leave people unemployed for such long periods of time, and deny them life prospects as a result, permanently harming their financial and professional/career future (not to mention losing the opportunity to have a family life for many, due to financial strain and delayed life opportunities).

Now that we have a new government that has shafted the public already, with a government plan that takes inadequate measures in the first half of its term (building a pitiful number of houses a year - that they were already obliged to be building in greater amounts than they have pledged) - and whch has a high risk of austerity in its second term (they have baked-in budget balancing to the government plan...) - then we need to make unemployment, and maintaining permanent Full Employment (with a Job Guarantee) the no.1 social/economic issue, even above housing (people can't buy affordable houses without a job...).

We've had a decade+ of unacceptable unemployment levels - there needs to be a permanent end to involuntary unemployment - with a Job Guarantee.

Eric Cartman

last professional out of here turn the lights off on the IFSC will ye.

we are at breaking point on taxation for middle and high earners. Anyone know of a country with no income tax where I can still get pissed everywhere ?

Fred Cryton

10000maniacs wrote: »

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/coronavirus/tds-to-be-told-that-higher-taxes-are-necessary-to-offset-the-economic-fallout-from-covid-19/ar-BB15xP7G?ocid=msedgdhp

Well, the middle ground are already taxed to the rafters as a consequence of the economic fallout of the last crash in 2008.
Simply, we cannot afford those 50,000 social houses. Building those houses is living beyond our means. All that Green goody goody crap is living beyond our means too. We can't afford it.
Any views?

Fine - as long as it's higher taxes on lower paid people.


A person earning €20k in Germany pays €4k in tax. In Ireland, they pay less than €1k.


If the SF voters want better public services, they can pay for it through higher taxes on lower incomes.

Tea drinker

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Start with
Stop all childrens allowance after 3 kids. Only going forward, if they have existing then continue
Allow county council to take rent at source, stop the millions of euro wasted on people who wont pay rent
Remove the christmas bonus. If you want a bonus for unemployed, get a f**king job.

Agreed. Proper controls around benefits and taking up offers of employment, if someone wants to not work then fine, lifestyle choice nothing to do with taxpayers. Same as mandatory taking a house in an area not *perfectly* suited to you. Loads of people buy or rent in areas not ideally suited.

ELM327

Eric Cartman wrote: »

last professional out of here turn the lights off on the IFSC will ye.

we are at breaking point on taxation for middle and high earners. Anyone know of a country with no income tax where I can still get pissed everywhere ?

There's quite a few states in the US with no state income tax.
Outside of that you're probably looking at oil baron dictatorships

KyussB

salonfire wrote: »

So how do you explain the massive decrease in private debt during the last recession?

You and your ilk who believe in magic money trees are the reason we have a three-legged chair for a government.

It's past time false information and manipulation
like yours is banned from social media.

Private Debt has grown by 50% since the last recession. Corporate Debt matters as well as Household Debt.

na1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

With rates at record lows, it's a perfect time to borrow and get building, we desperately need them and to stimulate the economy. We re not living beyond our means, that's just that normal economic conservative nonsense and frankly dangerous thinking

Borrow?
In this country we call it 'take a mortgage'.

Or by 'borrow' you mean: let's the State put the hand in a future generations pocket and build me a free house now?

salonfire

KyussB wrote: »

Private Debt has grown by 50% since the last recession. Corporate Debt matters as well as Household Debt.

Guess again there champ.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/b45d76-y/

gov.ie wrote:

Household debt now stands at 126 per cent of disposable income, a level last seen in 2003, having peaked at 212 per cent in 2009.

na1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

So don't borrow, don't do anything, and this will stimulate the economy by.....

creating new work places by cutting the minimal wages, cutting the dole to whoever rejects the job offers.

na1

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Raise the price of fags to €20 per box.
.

I don't smoke, but I think this measure will just increase the incomes of the cigarettes smugglers from ... certain countries.

Wanderer78

na1 wrote: »

Borrow?
In this country we call it 'take a mortgage'.

Or by 'borrow' you mean: let's the State put the hand in a future generations pocket and build me a free house now?

oh ffs, this nugget, again! jesus conservatives cant help themselves! again, with rates at record lows, borrowing now makes sense, by not doing so, it forces our monetary systems out into the private sector, which largely creates money via credit creation, which in turn becomes our private and corporate debts. the private sector will have limited capacity to take on this debt due to the downturn, which will further reduce the velocity of money, thus increasing the longevity and intensity of the downturn. its also important to remember, an increase in private debt, is a major contributing factor of the increase in asset prices, particularly house prices. so by not increasing the public balance sheet, it actually screws younger generations even further by these rising asset prices

jester77

Need to get people out and spending, the government here in Germany are reducing the VAT rates from 19% to 16% and 7% to 5% for the rest of the year to get people out spending and get the economy going again.

KyussB

salonfire wrote: »

Guess again there champ.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/b45d76-y/

You obviously didn't read my post, as I explicitly said Corporate Debt matters as well as Household Debt - since Private Debt is made up of both...

Private Debt is 50% higher than the last recession.

El_Duderino 09

jester77 wrote: »

Need to get people out and spending, the government here in Germany are reducing the VAT rates from 19% to 16% and 7% to 5% for the rest of the year to get people out spending and get the economy going again.

Yeah on a short term basis that's a very good idea. I'm not a huge fan of VAT in general. Would much prefer progressive taxes at source (on income and wealth) rather than at sale.

Rodin

The cost to the state of social welfare provisions is shocking.
Everybody wants things for free.

I even saw some griping about having to pay for cancer screening. It'd be a small price to pay if it picked up cancer earlier.

El_Duderino 09

Rodin wrote: »

The cost to the state of social welfare provisions is shocking.
Everybody wants things for free.

I even saw some griping about having to pay for cancer screening. It'd be a small price to pay if it picked up cancer earlier.

They are. But the thing that people don't like to think about is that pensions are the biggest part of social welfare. Pensions are twice as big as ALL working age benefits (which includes JSA).

"Trends in Social Welfare Spending by Programme Area
Figure 2 shows social welfare spending by programme in 2017. Total social welfare expenditure amounted to almost €20bn in 2017, representing 26% of General Government expenditure. The largest areas of expenditure by programme group were Pensions (37%), Illness, Disability and Caring (20%), Working Age Income Supports (18%) and Children (13%). The lowest areas of expenditure by programme group were Working Age Employment Supports (5%), Supplementary Payments (4%) and Administration of the Social Welfare System (3%)."

Quotes from here :http://publicpolicy.ie/papers/social-protection-and-welfare-a-review-of-expenditure-trends-during-economic-recession-and-recovery/

It's 2017 research but it gets the point across.

Tokyo

salonfire wrote: »

You ought to be banned for persistent trolling.

Mod: When we make you a mod, I'll let you know. Until then, wind your neck in.

Viscount Aggro

Theres an easy way to raise more tax - increase the local property tax.
I mean really raise it. Compared to certain US states, its a tiny amount.
Take New Jersey for example - its average of 7800 per annum, or 2.44% of property value.

Theres a few advantages of this...

Easy to collect, at source by Revenue.
Most of the wealth in Ireland is property assets. Therefore, Its a pure wealth tax.
Reduces speculative element of people buying multiple properties.

Viscount Aggro

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

Theres an easy way to raise more tax - increase the local property tax.
I mean really raise it. Compared to certain US states, its a tiny amount.
Take New Jersey for example - its average of 7800 per annum, or 2.44% of property value.

Theres a few advantages of this...

Easy to collect, at source by Revenue.
Most of the wealth in Ireland is property assets. Therefore, Its a pure wealth tax.
Reduces speculative element of people buying multiple properties.

So, only homeowners or mortgage holders pay? How fair is that? By all means increase LPT, but let ALL residents pay. Then let it cover rubbish collection and public amenities.

Duke of Url

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

Theres an easy way to raise more tax - increase the local property tax.
I mean really raise it. Compared to certain US states, its a tiny amount.
Take New Jersey for example - its average of 7800 per annum, or 2.44% of property value.

Theres a few advantages of this...

Easy to collect, at source by Revenue.
Most of the wealth in Ireland is property assets. Therefore, Its a pure wealth tax.
Reduces speculative element of people buying multiple properties.

How is the average Joe who has a 30 year mortgage wealthy ?

What about the average Joe earning the same but lives with mamma with no expenses?

landofthetree

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

Theres an easy way to raise more tax - increase the local property tax.
I mean really raise it. Compared to certain US states, its a tiny amount.
Take New Jersey for example - its average of 7800 per annum, or 2.44% of property value.

Theres a few advantages of this...

Easy to collect, at source by Revenue.
Most of the wealth in Ireland is property assets. Therefore, Its a pure wealth tax.
Reduces speculative element of people buying multiple properties.

This is Ireland.

Tax the expensive properties but not mine.

What is an expensive property? Any property thats worth more than mine.

bunderoon

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

Theres an easy way to raise more tax - increase the local property tax.
I mean really raise it. Compared to certain US states, its a tiny amount.
Take New Jersey for example - its average of 7800 per annum, or 2.44% of property value.

Theres a few advantages of this...

Easy to collect, at source by Revenue.
Most of the wealth in Ireland is property assets. Therefore, Its a pure wealth tax.
Reduces speculative element of people buying multiple properties.

Get people who are on long term dole back to work. Service based jobs if necessary. Walk into any supermarket or fast food place and the majority seem to be Eastern Europeans. If it's good enough and pays enough for them, then it should be the same for us. We are raising a cohort of the population as useless scroungers who want everything but pay for nothing . You put generous welfare into population, you then see a breakdown of the 2 parent family home. This has been ramped up here since the 90s. We can see this since the 60s in the US.
We cannot operate a free and fair society of we have a class of people that drag the rest of us down by bankrupting us. And I'm not in about genuine social welfare recipients who need a temporary hand up.

bunderoon

landofthetree wrote: »

This is Ireland.

Tax the expensive properties but not mine.

What is an expensive property? Any property thats worth more than mine.

Fix as many as the unnecessary outgoings/ wastages/ inefficiencies/ fraud in society first. That will repay the country exponentially.

HamSarris

There'll be a 50% tax on people's savings through inflation but no one will care

Duke of Url

I think the Government should see where they will cut spending first before shaking down the taxpayers.

Wanderer78

Duke of Url wrote: »

I think the Government should see where they will cut spending first before shaking down the taxpayers.

....because a reduction in public and private sectors speeds up recovery!

Duke of Url

Wanderer78 wrote: »

....because a reduction in public and private sectors speeds up recovery!

Ok if that’s where you would like it. I was more talking about infrastructure.