Higher taxes inevitable because of COVID19

y0ssar1an22

cut spending on SW for the long term unemployed (exception disability) and be done with it.

thats prob wouldn't even be enough

Wanderer78

Duke of Url wrote: »

Ok if that’s where you would like it. I was more talking about infrastructure.

what about infrastructure?

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

cut spending on SW for the long term unemployed (exception disability) and be done with it.

thats prob wouldn't even be enough

...this will help by....

y0ssar1an22

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what about infrastructure?



...this will help by....

**** if i know!

you cant keep taxing the middle, purely because we have jobs so cant take to the streets to throw a tantrum

Duke of Url

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what about infrastructure?



...this will help by....

Any Planned Government spending on infrastructure should be reviewed postponed where it can be. Any Government Projects should be reviewed and postsponed where it can be.

You are the one who highlight public sector pay. Why should we do that? Because I didn’t say that or even highlight it.

Wanderer78

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

**** if i know!

you cant keep taxing the middle, purely because we have jobs so cant take to the streets to throw a tantrum

you cant keep implementing polices that encourage continual asset price inflation, particularly in relation to housing, which ultimately screws the middle classes

Duke of Url wrote: »

Any Planned Government spending on infrastructure should be reviewed postponed where it can be. Any Government Projects should be reviewed and postsponed where it can be.

You are the one who highlight public sector pay. Why should we do that? Because I didn’t say that or even highlight it.

..and, contracting the public and private sectors together aid recovery by....

y0ssar1an22

Wanderer78 wrote: »

you cant keep implementing polices that encourage continual asset price inflation, particularly in relation to housing, which ultimately screws the middle classes




..and, contracting the public and private sectors together aid recovery by....

so to stop inflation, you what? tax them more so they have less to spend?

and maybe leave the SW @ 350 p/w so they have more to spend?

Wanderer78

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

so to stop inflation, you what? tax them more so they have less to spend?

and maybe leave the SW @ 350 p/w so they have more to spend?

what inflation! central banks have been trying to create inflation for a long time, the only inflation theyve managed to do is further asset price inflation

tax who what?

borrow the money, invest this wisely, infrastructure spending etc, this in turn stimulates the private sector, grow your economy out of the downturn, and in turn service the new debts with this new growth

Truthvader

Reading all the suggestions here. Have to say think the tax system as is is fair enough and dont think there is much scope for increases - and certainly none that will make any difference. I do expect the Greens to insist on a range of spiteful taxes to punish motorists and some carbon tax nonsense. Someone earlier said that a housing solution could be generated for 10 billion. Not a fan of more borrowing but assuming that is true think it makes sense. From memory we all paid 80 billion to bail out the banks. I will take one eighth of that pain to sort housing. PLUS unlike the bank bailout that was just whipped away 10 billion put into housing is money actively put into the economy generating jobs, sales of beer and tat.

Comments??

Can I be a Minister?

Wanderer78

Truthvader wrote: »

Reading all the suggestions here. Have to say think the tax system as is is fair enough and dont think there is much scope for increases - and certainly none that will make any difference. I do expect the Greens to insist on a range of spiteful taxes to punish motorists and some carbon tax nonsense. Someone earlier said that a housing solution could be generated for 10 billion. Not a fan of more borrowing but assuming that is true think it makes sense. From memory we all paid 80 billion to bail out the banks. I will take one eighth of that pain to sort housing. PLUS unlike the bank bailout that was just whipped away 10 billion put into housing is money actively put into the economy generating jobs, sales of beer and tat.

Comments??

Can I be a Minister?

bank bail out debt is odious debt, it actually didnt do much if any good to the population in general, borrowing for infrastructure building would benefit all citizens

Geuze

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I dont mean increasing tax on a home. But if have no problem with hefty tax on second home and similar aspects of wealth. Nobody is saying someone can't have a second home, but in a time of housing being such a huge obstacle for normal people, a second home should be taxed heavily.

I also mean increasing CGT to at least the level of tax on labour.

As every earner has a different average/effective tax rate (ATR), this suggests not having any CGT at all, but simply adding all capital gains to income, and taxing them both together, as income.

I think some countries do that?

Note that as many earners in Ireland have a 0% ATR, then they would pay 0% tax on any capital gain.

Geuze

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And I'd get rid of the notion of inheritance. We should at least want to live in a meritocracy and the entire notion of inheritance means you an inherit the fruits of someone else's merit. How mad is that?

Without inheritance it might mean people would prefer to rent than buy houses and it would likely change the market. But that's not a problem.

Get rid of the notion of inheritance?

Do you mean prevent people from making bequests?

So somebody could not pass on their assets to anybody else at death?

What would happen to assets at death?

What would happen to houses at death? Who would own them?

That sounds like a very radical/odd idea.

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh ffs, this nugget, again! jesus conservatives cant help themselves! again, with rates at record lows, borrowing now makes sense,

You will be happy to hear that the NTMA is borrowing heavily this year:

18.5 bn so far this year.

https://www.ntma.ie/business-areas/funding-and-debt-management

They plan to borrow 20-24bn this year

Truthvader

Wanderer78 wrote: »

bank bail out debt is odious debt, it actually didnt do much if any good to the population in general, borrowing for infrastructure building would benefit all citizens

Agreed. The bondholders should have been told "you made a bet and you lost. Goodbye". We were conned. And the banks are so ungrateful that we all saved their asses. Genuinely intersted in comments re €10 billion borrowed for housing

Geuze

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah on a short term basis that's a very good idea. I'm not a huge fan of VAT in general. Would much prefer progressive taxes at source (on income and wealth) rather than at sale.

Then you'll be happy to hear that we already have one of the most progressive income tax systems in the world.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-has-eu-s-most-progressive-tax-system-study-finds-1.4148368

http://www.publicpolicyarchive.ie/ireland-has-the-most-progressive-income-tax-system-in-the-eu-2/

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/eb028_en.pdf

Page 4:
By the same token, estimates from the OECD report indicate that Ireland has the most progressive income tax system in the EU and well above the
OECD average

Geuze

Truthvader wrote: »

From memory we all paid 80 billion to bail out the banks. I will take one eighth of that pain to sort housing. PLUS unlike the bank bailout that was just whipped away 10 billion put into housing is money actively put into the economy generating jobs, sales of beer and tat.

It was 64bn.

Bank shareholders were wiped out, and correctly so.

Bank depositors were protected, and bank senior bondholders.

So when people say "the banks were bailed out", what they mean is "I and my neighbours, and all the other people in Ireland who have deposits and bonds in banks" were bailed out.

Geuze

Truthvader wrote: »

Agreed. The bondholders should have been told "you made a bet and you lost. Goodbye". We were conned. And the banks are so ungrateful that we all saved their asses. Genuinely intersted in comments re €10 billion borrowed for housing

The problem in housing is not the financing.

It's the site costs / lack of sites / supply-side constraints / not enough builders.

There is plenty of savings in Ireland that could be used to finance housing.

There isn't plenty of carpenters / plumbers / electricians, etc.

Truthvader

Geuze wrote: »

It was 64bn.

Bank shareholders were wiped out, and correctly so.

Bank depositors were protected, and bank senior bondholders.

So when people say "the banks were bailed out", what they mean is "I and my neighbours, and all the other people in Ireland who have deposits and bonds in banks" were bailed out.

True but the government could have protected deposit holders as a protective measure to take care of its own people without covering bondholders who of all the players knew the rules

Geuze

Truthvader wrote: »

True but the government could have protected deposit holders as a protective measure to take care of its own people without covering bondholders who of all the players knew the rules

I wish that could have happened, but at the time it was said that senior bondholders ranked pari passu with depositors.

enricoh

jester77 wrote: »

Need to get people out and spending, the government here in Germany are reducing the VAT rates from 19% to 16% and 7% to 5% for the rest of the year to get people out spending and get the economy going again.

It's a big stumbling block for Irish online retailers, 23% here v 20 in the UK, 19 down to 16 in Germany.
Should have been got back to 21 in the last few years but the hse black hole and foreva home brigade was appeased instead.

Truthvader

Geuze wrote: »

The problem in housing is not the financing.

It's the site costs / lack of sites / supply-side constraints / not enough builders.

There is plenty of savings in Ireland that could be used to finance housing.

There isn't plenty of carpenters / plumbers / electricians, etc.

OK... The glass bottle site is sitting there waiting to be transformed into a mini NYC

Not convinced that there are savings as claimed. Like what?

Hadnt thought about the lack of tradesmen. Simply dont know about that. Is it not the case that a lot of building is now done by buying in prefab units ?

Dont know but asking questions

Truthvader

Geuze wrote: »

I wish that could have happened, but at the time it was said that senior bondholders ranked pari passu with depositors.

That may well be true and so they both lose. But the government can and should decided who to compensate and who not to. That is nothing to do with pari passu and such. It is a gift to which no-one is "entitled"

Tea drinker

Geuze wrote: »

It was 64bn.

Bank shareholders were wiped out, and correctly so.

Bank depositors were protected, and bank senior bondholders.

So when people say "the banks were bailed out", what they mean is "I and my neighbours, and all the other people in Ireland who have deposits and bonds in banks" were bailed out.

I have a few questions if you don't mind, I'm frequently badly misinformed so lets all take a deep breath.
How much is the cumulative interest on the 64 bn and does the 64 include emptying the pension fund of ~20 billion ? I honestly can't recall at this stage.

IMHO The "protected deposits" most people had in the banks during the crisis is dwarfed by the "new normal" taxes and charges. USC runs to a few thou per year, the increased taxes similar. The squeezed middle squeezed again.

And then there's the 1.5 billion given to unsecured bondholders of AIB

The backstory behind moving debt to Irish taxpayers is that of having 47 billion in debt in 2007 but 210 billion in 2012.
https://countryeconomy.com/national-debt/ireland

salonfire

The question is then, just where is all our tax money going?

If we accept that public sector pay is now in line with the private, then there must be massive inefficiency within it? We already know the Health System is out of control.

Why can we not afford to run the country? We do not have the costs of a military. We don't have to deal with environmental challenges or massive overcrowding.

Tax level have reached the suitable maximum.

You could argue Welfare needs reform but a large chunk of that budget is pensions and children's allowance, not really funding a lifestyle choice.

has apple paid what the EU told them to pay back....

Geuze

Tea drinker wrote: »

I have a few questions if you don't mind, I'm frequently badly misinformed so lets all take a deep breath.
How much is the cumulative interest on the 64 bn and does the 64 include emptying the pension fund of ~20 billion ? I honestly can't recall at this stage.

I will reply tonight, see below.

Geuze

salonfire wrote: »

The question is then, just where is all our tax money going?

Tax level have reached the suitable maximum.

Taxes on many earners are not just low, they are very low.

I have repeatedly given the example of my parents on 50k, paying 9% direct income tax, and getting:

two med cards
two FTP
free TV licence
35 pm off elec / 420 pa

What other country in the world is as generous, in return for 9% direct tax?

Geuze

Tea drinker wrote: »

I have a few questions if you don't mind, I'm frequently badly misinformed so lets all take a deep breath.
How much is the cumulative interest on the 64 bn and does the 64 include emptying the pension fund of ~20 billion ? I honestly can't recall at this stage.

Be careful to distinguish the cost of something with how that cost is financed.

Here is the cost of the bank re-capitalisation:

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2013/02/deficit-debt-and-expenditure-impacting.html





Note that we have received returns/payments/dividends since then.

The 64bn is a gross cost, the net cost is less:

https://www.audit.gov.ie/en/Find-Report/Publications/2019/2018-Annual-Report-Chapter-2-Cost-of-Bank-Stabilisation-2018.pdf

Geuze

Tea drinker wrote: »

I have a few questions if you don't mind, I'm frequently badly misinformed so lets all take a deep breath.
How much is the cumulative interest on the 64 bn and does the
[

This is what the 2018 CAG report estimates:

Estimated long-term recurring annual cost of servicing the debt €1.1 billion to €1.3 billion a yearc

c = Range assuming interest rates of 2.5% to 3.0% per year; actual cost will be determined by the amount realised from remaining investments and by State’s cost of borrowing.

https://www.audit.gov.ie/en/Find-Report/Publications/2019/2018-Annual-Report-Chapter-2-Cost-of-Bank-Stabilisation-2018.pdf

Truthvader

Geuze wrote: »

Be careful to distinguish the cost of something with how that cost is financed.

Here is the cost of the bank re-capitalisation:

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2013/02/deficit-debt-and-expenditure-impacting.html





Note that we have received returns/payments/dividends since then.

The 64bn is a gross cost, the net cost is less:

https://www.audit.gov.ie/en/Find-Report/Publications/2019/2018-Annual-Report-Chapter-2-Cost-of-Bank-Stabilisation-2018.pdf

This is very clear information

Re earlier exchange if the problem with housing is not in fact finance , which I and most others assume it is and assuming the glass bottle site sorts Dublin - and no-one wants to live anywhere else to be fair. That leaves your skill set shortage argument,

Seems only two solutions

a wait 5 years until we train up out own crew
b import workers form elsewhere

Anything else?

Geuze

salonfire wrote: »

The question is then, just where is all our tax money going?

If we accept that public sector pay is now in line with the private, then there must be massive inefficiency within it? We already know the Health System is out of control.

We have 3,000+ primary schools, way more than other countries.

Riverstown parish in Co. Sligo has 5 primary schools.

The population of Riverstown is <1,000.

Think of all the principal salary and pensions, think of the duplication.

Sligo town has 9 primary sch, would a town of 20,000 in Belgium or UK have 9 primary schools?

We have 750 sec schools.


We had 700 Garda stations while NI has 70.

We cut by 20% to 560 stations, and people complained.


We had 19 colleges to train teachers (there is an ongoing merger process)

We have 14 nurse education sites, NI has two.


There are too many hosps, the doctors agree.

We have too many EDs, Dublin has six I think.

When the 8 health boards were merged into the HSE, Bertie Ahern did a deal with unions, not a single job lost.

Can you imagine the duplication and waste?