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Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

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    #512
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    maxsmum wrote: »
    Exactly. I drive through the park twice a day. You need to be on the lookout for deer coming onto Chesterfield Avenue as it is. Before Covid you had to be on high alert for kids coming out between cars on the avenue or car doors opening. It looks much nicer and is much safer now, and the car parks are safely off the main road.

    Be safer if you didn't drive through it ever.


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    #513
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    beauf wrote: »
    What people are asking for is no through road side gates closed and keep the existing very parks only.

    That changes very little about the road safety as people still will be driving all over the park and thorough it to get to things like the zoo, Farmleigh, visitor center, pope's cross, hospital etc.

    Out if curiosity are their any statistics on the accidents with pedestrians and specifically children in the park? Are are we all just meant to guess?

    I'm sure that could be confirmed fairly quickly following some checking by the local TDs or Councillors.


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    #514
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    beauf wrote: »
    What people are asking for is no through road side gates closed and keep the existing very parks only.

    That changes very little about the road safety as people still will be driving all over the park and thorough it to get to things like the zoo, Farmleigh, visitor center, pope's cross, hospital etc.

    Out if curiosity are their any statistics on the accidents with pedestrians and specifically children in the park? Are are we all just meant to guess?


    No idea on statistics to be honest....


    My view is close down the entire park to traffic, I know that is the plan from OPW and it should be done now.


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    #515
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    hardybuck wrote: »
    I'm sure that could be confirmed fairly quickly following some checking by the local TDs or Councillors.

    I think if some authority is suggesting it's dangerous or has no effect on traffic etc then they should have stats to prove this.

    The last study suggested the traffic moved to roads around the park but a certain % disappeared. There didn't seem to be any study on the effect of numbers of people in the park. My observation is that there's a lot less walkers and runners, except on exceptional days. Others will argue otherwise. Without data we'll be just guessing.


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    #516
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    No idea on statistics to be honest....


    My view is close down the entire park to traffic, I know that is the plan from OPW and it should be done now.

    What about the dangers of high speed cyclists. Perhaps they should also be banned in case a child runs out in from of them also, or a deer.


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    #517
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,746 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Ok, listen, I'm just here to talk about bringing the family to the Phoenix Park man. I don't think you can lay the watershed moment for the World at my door. If this crisis was "supposed" to change the World, I must've missed that memo.
    There is absolutely nothing stopping you from bringing the family to the park.
    Larbre34 wrote: »
    But in all seriousness, I don't think there was a single thing wrong with the setup of the Park prior to March of this year.
    There are none so blind as those that cannot see!


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    #518
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    beauf wrote: »
    What about the dangers of high speed cyclists. Perhaps they should also be banned in case a child runs out in from of them also, or a deer.


    I am sure the chances of someone dying after getting hit with a push bike v a car/SUV have been worked out. But I guess the car "win" in that situation


    To be honest if a deer runs over your child then thats just pure bad luck


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    #519
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    There is absolutely nothing stopping you from bringing the family to the park.


    There are none so blind as those that cannot see!


    The fact that onces it get anywhere close to dark you have to get out of the park ASAP would be a small issue I would see


    Even the Zoo lights show at night, they had to install a massive set of lights to try make it safe for people to walk out to cars


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    #520
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I am sure the chances of someone dying after getting hit with a push bike v a car/SUV have been worked out. But I guess the car "win" in that situation


    To be honest if a deer runs over your child then thats just pure bad luck

    There's a least one case I'm aware of where a pedestrian and cyclist collided in the park on the cycling path and the cyclist died.
    Collisions between cyclists and pedestrians in the Phoenix Park are common, Detective Inspector Peter Hayde told the court.

    There have also been accidents at the gates outside the park.
    Changes to the road layout at Phoenix Park where a cyclist was killed could save the lives of others, an inquest has heard.

    None of the proposed changes will effect either of these situations. People will still walk across the path of cyclists, and cyclists will still have to cross (even busier) roads to access the park.

    If they were banned from the park, that would remove any potential conflict.


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    #521
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    There is absolutely nothing stopping you from bringing the family to the park. ...

    Just add an hour walk to your usual times. Sorted...


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    #522
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,435 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    No idea on statistics to be honest....


    My view is close down the entire park to traffic, I know that is the plan from OPW and it should be done now.

    Definitely not. Park is massive, people use and visit different spots. All park entrances and exits need to be open and back to parking through the main thoroughfare.

    All Eyes On Rafah



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    #523
    ronivek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    There seems to be no readily available statistics on safety in the park. The only thing I can find is a rather vague blurb from their Conservation Management Plan:
    Ten internal Park roads and a vehicular gate have been closed to through traffic, which has resulted in a significant reduction in road accidents and a more tranquil and safer Park environment.

    When you look for accidents in the media over the last twenty years I can only find two which were fatal and appeared to involve a pedestrian being hit:
    • In 2016 a cyclist died after he struck a pedestrian.
    • In 2015 a 2-year old girl was struck and killed by an intoxicated driver who had drank a bottle of vodka and taken cocaine.

    It would be interesting to see some actual statistics. Certainly when I'm driving past the zoo on a busy day I'm always extremely conscious of someone stepping into the street but I would also expect the vast majority of people who park there to also be extremely conscious of the main road.


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    #524
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,991 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Something I've noticed cycling vs driving along at 30km/hr. Driving along at 30km/hr feels very slow and feels like "no way could I possibly hit someone by accident at this speed". Cycling at 30km/hr in an area where there are a lot of pedestrians about feels like taking my life into hands. Primarily because I'm aware it's going to hurt myself quite significantly if there is a collision.


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    #525
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    My view is close down the entire park to traffic, I know that is the plan from OPW and it should be done now.

    People keep saying this.

    How do you get to the park if there are no cars allowed?

    And don't say public transport. Please don't say public transport.


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    #526
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,746 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Former Former wrote: »
    People keep saying this.

    How do you get to the park if there are no cars allowed?

    And don't say public transport. Please don't say public transport.
    We're going around in circles.
    You can drive to the park and park your car outside. There are loads of parking places, many of them free (see the R109).
    There is sample opportunity to use public transport so it's unfair to dismiss it as you did. You can even P&R at the red cow and relax as PT brings you to the park.
    Anyone who says that it is difficult to get to the park without a car is just making excuses!


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    #527
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    We're going around in circles.
    You can drive to the park and park your car outside. There are loads of parking places, many of them free (see the R109).
    There is sample opportunity to use public transport so it's unfair to dismiss it as you did. You can even P&R at the red cow and relax as PT brings you to the park.
    Anyone who says that it is difficult to get to the park without a car is just making excuses!

    Any known accident and deaths on the R109 or even congestion that will be exerbated by increasing traffic and parking on it?


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    #528
    ronivek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    We're going around in circles.
    You can drive to the park and park your car outside. There are loads of parking places, many of them free (see the R109).
    There is sample opportunity to use public transport so it's unfair to dismiss it as you did. You can even P&R at the red cow and relax as PT brings you to the park.
    Anyone who says that it is difficult to get to the park without a car is just making excuses!

    Do you accept that with the new changes it is now more difficult to get to and use the park for many people? Whatever your own personal threshold for deciding whether something is to be considered 'difficult' or not.


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    #529
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Former Former wrote: »
    People keep saying this.

    How do you get to the park if there are no cars allowed?

    And don't say public transport. Please don't say public transport.

    Everyone is well able to do an extra hour of walking to get to the park so they can do a hour walking in the park.

    Public transport is crying out for more people to use it. More the merrier.


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    #530
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    We're going around in circles.
    You can drive to the park and park your car outside. There are loads of parking places, many of them free (see the R109).
    There is sample opportunity to use public transport so it's unfair to dismiss it as you did. You can even P&R at the red cow and relax as PT brings you to the park.
    Anyone who says that it is difficult to get to the park without a car is just making excuses!

    I asked people not to say public transport, and in fairness, you didn't - you did say PT, P&R and Luas but fair play, technically you complied.

    So, I am to drive to the Red Cow, then bring three kids, two bikes and a buggy onto a crowded Luas in the middle of the worst global pandemic in over a century? It fairness, that does sound very relaxing.

    The worst part of all this is... the OPW seem to think it's viable too. At least posters here are just random internetters who aren't being paid to come up with this nonsense. The OPW are a disgrace.


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    #531
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Social media in the driving seat on public policy now.


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    #532
    appledrop
    Registered Users Posts: 5,915 ✭✭✭appledrop


    I'm also sick to death of use Public Transport arguement.

    I can get to Phoneix Park in 20 mins in car from our house.

    If we use Public Transport we would have to get two buses etc+ walk That will be at least 2+ hours each way including wait times etc.

    Have a look out the window. That's an Irish summer for you. Also who in their right mind after a day at zoo with young kids then wants a 2 + hour journey home on public transport? No-one.

    Also as I've said before + I'll say again park belongs to everyone. You will see regs from every part of Ireland in zoo car park. But sure they should all hop on none existence public transport in a lot of rural Ireland.


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    #533
    floorpie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭floorpie


    Looking at a map of Phoenix Park it seems comical to say that roads are a problem.

    1) Why are pedestrians fixated on walking ON the road, in a massive park? What is the novelty here?

    2) If car drivers should walk to the zoo as per comments ITT, why shouldn't pedestrians instead walk 10 seconds away from the road? This is the easier solution and benefits more people.

    3) I've lived right beside the park so I've been in it many times during the Chesterfield Ave closures. The closed road is largely NOT used. You can walk up and down it for 2 hours and pass 10 people, you see same few people every weekend, and likely these people also live in the area. Why inconvenience many people for the benefit of a handful of privileged people?

    4) It's repeatedly stated that cars are unsafe in the park, and implied that cyclists/pedestrians are more safe without them. What evidence is there for this? Anybody who's been in a pedestrianized park such as Central Park in NY knows that pedestrians and cyclists are NOT safe sharing the same roads. Incidents from both Central Park and Phoenix Park also bear this out.

    5) If it is unsafe for pedestrians to share a throughway with cyclists, then it would be sensible for cyclists to have primary use of the car-free roads in the park. So, in essence you end up in the same situation: pedestrians have to be careful when crossing roads. Except far fewer people benefit from the throughway, and far fewer people can easily avail of a national park.

    The solution is this:

    1) Keep cyclists away from pedestrians (and vice versa) as best as possible, don't try to integrate them further.

    2) It should not be allowed to park your car and leave the park. This is the main cause of excess cars in the park every day of the week: people who use it as free parking and then walk into town, for work or otherwise

    3) Build a park and ride for *the Luas* somewhere near the area, e.g. the back of Heuston

    4) Stop being selfish. The park is massive and at any given time is mostly empty. There is room for everyone


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    #534
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    floorpie wrote: »
    Looking at a map of Phoenix Park it seems comical to say that roads are a problem.

    1) Why are pedestrians fixated on walking ON the road, in a massive park? What is the novelty here?

    2) If car drivers should walk to the zoo as per comments ITT, why shouldn't pedestrians instead walk 10 seconds away from the road? This is the easier solution and benefits more people.

    3) I've lived right beside the park so I've been in it many times during the Chesterfield Ave closures. The closed road is largely NOT used. You can walk up and down it for 2 hours and pass 10 people, you see same few people every weekend, and likely these people also live in the area. Why inconvenience many people for the benefit of a handful of privileged people?

    4) It's repeatedly stated that cars are unsafe in the park, and implied that cyclists/pedestrians are more safe without them. What evidence is there for this? Anybody who's been in a pedestrianized park such as Central Park in NY knows that pedestrians and cyclists are NOT safe sharing the same roads. Incidents from both Central Park and Phoenix Park also bear this out.

    5) If it is unsafe for pedestrians to share a throughway with cyclists, then it would be sensible for cyclists to have primary use of the car-free roads in the park. So, in essence you end up in the same situation: pedestrians have to be careful when crossing roads. Except far fewer people benefit from the throughway, and far fewer people can easily avail of a national park.

    The solution is this:

    1) Keep cyclists away from pedestrians (and vice versa) as best as possible, don't try to integrate them further.

    2) It should not be allowed to park your car and leave the park. This is the main cause of excess cars in the park every day of the week: people who use it as free parking and then walk into town, for work or otherwise

    3) Build a park and ride for *the Luas* somewhere near the area, e.g. the back of Heuston

    4) Stop being selfish. The park is massive and at any given time is mostly empty. There is room for everyone


    It is clear from your comments you have never been in the park. Currently the park has a pedestrian path and a cyclist path the majority of the park.


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    #535
    floorpie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭floorpie


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    It is clear from your comments you have never been in the park. Currently the park has a pedestrian path and a cyclist path the majority of the park.

    How did you get this from my comment?


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    #536
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    floorpie wrote: »
    How did you get this from my comment?


    You keep talking about keeping cyclist and pedestrian away from each other, that is already in place.


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    #537
    floorpie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭floorpie


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    You keep talking about keeping cyclist and pedestrian away from each other, that is already in place.

    So? I said that it's not safe for pedestrians and cyclists to be in close proximity, or to share roads.


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    #538
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    floorpie wrote: »
    So? I said that it's not safe for pedestrians and cyclists to be in close proximity, or to share roads.


    As I already posted they don't, they have seperate walks. The cyclist are maybe 5m away from the pedestrians in some section they are a bit closer.



    If you knew the park it is clearly marked the cycling lane and the pedestrian walkway. Also if you do go on the cyclist part they are very quick to tell you to get off it, same with cyclist on the pedestrian walkway


    Also your comment about people walking on the road, nobody wants to walk on the road. They just want the ability to walk in the park and if a child get away they are not in immediate risk of getting knocked down by some plonker in a car who thinks the park is a race track


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    #539
    floorpie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭floorpie


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Also your comment about people walking on the road, nobody wants to walk on the road. They just want the ability to walk in the park and if a child get away they are not in immediate risk of getting knocked down by some plonker in a car who thinks the park is a race track

    That's not my experience of the weekly Chesterfield Ave closures during previous summers. People seem to enjoy being allowed to walk on the road despite being in a park.
    knocked down by some plonker in a car who thinks the park is a race track

    How often has this happened? As I said in my post also, if someone wants to walk in the park away from cars it's very easy to do this. 95% of the park is away from cars, including the inner pedestrian path. Your fear is a non issue.


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    #540
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    ...
    If you knew the park it is clearly marked the cycling lane and the pedestrian walkway. Also if you do go on the cyclist part they are very quick to tell you to get off it, same with cyclist on the pedestrian walkway
    ...

    If you knew the park....

    A lot of the park has no cycle paths. Have you only ever been on Chesterfield Ave....

    What about MTB on the trails....


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    #541
    floorpie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭floorpie


    beauf wrote: »
    If you knew the park....

    A lot of the park has no cycle paths. Have you only ever been on Chesterfield Ave....

    This is essentially what I mean. Cyclists/pedestrians are talking ITT about want to enjoy "the park" car-free, but they're fixated on the road through the park. If you're not fixated on the road then you've no fear of being bothered by cars, because the park is so big. Roads are a miniscule % of it. It may not feel like a miniscule % if all you ever do is walk on/beside the road, however.


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