Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

Larbre34 · 07-07-2020 2:42pm

daymobrew wrote: »

If the OPW were to have a consultation they wouldn't be obliged to implement what people say. A consultation is really just to be seen to listening.

Basically, I don't think that a public consultation is the magic solution that people expect it would be.

Absolutely, but it would shine a light on the OPW zealotry, force them into justifying their heavy handedness, get the public reps and media talking about it.

Larbre34 · 07-07-2020 2:50pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No idea on statistics to be honest....

My view is close down the entire park to traffic, I know that is the plan from OPW and it should be done now.

Do you know? How do you know?

I'll tell you now thats bull, because how could they close off vehicle access to...

The Zoo
Garda Headquarters
Ordnance Survey HQ
St Marys Hospital
Ashtown Castle visitors centre
Áras an Uachtaráin
US Ambassador's residence at Deerfield
Civil Defence facilities
Garda Mounted Unit facility
The Cricket Club
The Polo Club
The dozens of pitches and changing facilities

Did I miss anything?

I came through the Park about 90 mins ago and pulled into the Lord's Walk (Zoo) Carpark. It was full and a Park Ranger was turning people away. And thats on a lashing wet day with the Zoo on limited access. How the hell is the Zoo supposed to be viable when things open up more?

hardybuck · 07-07-2020 3:02pm

Aside from my concerns that OPW will create a precedent to introduce measures by stealth, and without consultation, I'm becoming increasingly concerned at the apparent lack of evidence informed decision making.

I think if the OPW were to produce hard data setting out a danger to the public which is being mitigated I think people would sit up and listen. However there doesn't appear to be any recent incidents involving pedestrians and motorists, so it's a bit strange that they've made unilateral moves without any strong rationale.

People attacking other people seems to be by far the biggest risk to safety in the Phoenix Park. I look forward to the OPW's proposed measures to mitigate this risk.

The other obvious risk is posed by all this wildlife wandering around. People seem determined to feed deer despite the risks. Either we increase the level of culling or perhaps the deer should be in enclosed areas.

beauf · 07-07-2020 3:06pm

Maybe people should be enclosed. Outside the park.

The deer are already enclosed in the park.

Shefwedfan · 07-07-2020 3:11pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Do you know? How do you know?

I'll tell you now thats bull, because how could they close off vehicle access to...

The Zoo
Garda Headquarters
Ordnance Survey HQ
St Marys Hospital
Ashtown Castle visitors centre
Áras an Uachtaráin
US Ambassador's residence at Deerfield
Civil Defence facilities
Garda Mounted Unit facility
The Cricket Club
The Polo Club
The dozens of pitches and changing facilities

Did I miss anything?

I came through the Park about 90 mins ago and pulled into the Lord's Walk (Zoo) Carpark. It was full and a Park Ranger was turning people away. And thats on a lashing wet day with the Zoo on limited access. How the hell is the Zoo supposed to be viable when things open up more?

I talked to a guy in DCC before and he confirmed, the plan is to close all access. The main road up was to be converted to a cobblestone type road, access to and from the park via a parknride system....he mentioned something about a trial period but I can’t remember now, was a year or two back

Things are open, if anything it should be busier than normal because of these people still off work while things reopen

Also this week is normal holiday week, at this time I am normally sitting over in some foreign part of world. Along with a huge amount of other people, none of these people can travel so yes I would expect everything to be jammed.....

The zoo even have extended opening till later to cater, picked up some tickets myself

07-07-2020 3:27pm

beauf wrote: »

Maybe people should be enclosed. Outside the park.

The deer are already enclosed in the park.

That would certainly be better for the deer. The people who try to touch them and get as close as possible for selfies are idiots. Seen someone trying to feed one a sandwich last summer.

Basically the park would be better without the people

Larbre34 · 07-07-2020 3:35pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I talked to a guy in DCC before and he confirmed, the plan is to close all access. The main road up was to be converted to a cobblestone type road....

It was at this point that I stopped reading.

Larbre34 · 07-07-2020 3:39pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Aside from my concerns that OPW will create a precedent to introduce measures by stealth, and without consultation, I'm becoming increasingly concerned at the apparent lack of evidence informed decision making.

I think if the OPW were to produce hard data setting out a danger to the public which is being mitigated I think people would sit up and listen. However there doesn't appear to be any recent incidents involving pedestrians and motorists, so it's a bit strange that they've made unilateral moves without any strong rationale.

People attacking other people seems to be by far the biggest risk to safety in the Phoenix Park. I look forward to the OPW's proposed measures to mitigate this risk.

The other obvious risk is posed by all this wildlife wandering around. People seem determined to feed deer despite the risks. Either we increase the level of culling or perhaps the deer should be in enclosed areas.

Precisely, no justification for the measures they're taking. Again I say OPW are there to work for the taxpayers, it is not their private domain or indeed demense!

The deer population level and people's stupidity around them is a separate but important issue. If OPW spent more time educating and enforcing visitor's behaviour around them it would be time much better spent. But for what we're talking about here, they are irrelevant.

beauf · 07-07-2020 5:03pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I talked to a guy in DCC before and he confirmed, the plan is to close all access. The main road up was to be converted to a cobblestone type road, access to and from the park via a parknride system....he mentioned something about a trial period but I can’t remember now, was a year or two back

Things are open, if anything it should be busier than normal because of these people still off work while things reopen

Also this week is normal holiday week, at this time I am normally sitting over in some foreign part of world. Along with a huge amount of other people, none of these people can travel so yes I would expect everything to be jammed.....

The zoo even have extended opening till later to cater, picked up some tickets myself

That you think it takes Covid to fill that car park shows how out of touch with reality these comments are.

Car park for the Zoo is Frequently overflowing. Has been since they built the new car park as are all the roads around it, everyone is crammed onto the grass on a busy day and all up and down the avenue. People going to the zoo are obvious with day bags for the kids and a buggy or two.

But for sure they can all park 30 mins walk away, and/or park on all the side streets nearby. Its certainly worth trying that for 6 months.

Seth Brundle · 07-07-2020 5:20pm

beauf wrote: »

Any known accident and deaths on the R109 or even congestion that will be exerbated by increasing traffic and parking on it?

What? Your question doesn't make sense. How can an increase in congestion exacerbate known accidents or deaths?
If you're asking will people parking on the R109 increase congestion, incidents or deaths then maybe some research is required and if so then let's put down double yellows all along it.

Seth Brundle · 07-07-2020 5:21pm

ronivek wrote: »

Do you accept that with the new changes it is now more difficult to get to and use the park for many people? Whatever your own personal threshold for deciding whether something is to be considered 'difficult' or not.

I find that it's more pleasant to use the park but pretty much the same to get to it. You must be doing something wrong if you're not experiencing if you're finding it worse!

Seth Brundle · 07-07-2020 5:25pm

Former Former wrote: »

I asked people not to say public transport, and in fairness, you didn't - you did say PT, P&R and Luas but fair play, technically you complied.

So, I am to drive to the Red Cow, then bring three kids, two bikes and a buggy onto a crowded Luas in the middle of the worst global pandemic in over a century? It fairness, that does sound very relaxing.

The worst part of all this is... the OPW seem to think it's viable too. At least posters here are just random internetters who aren't being paid to come up with this nonsense. The OPW are a disgrace.

You want to discuss accessing a large public park in a city centre without including public transport? FFS: rolleyes:
As for how you're to get to it, that's not for me to decide. You are aware of traffic in the park. You are also aware of some of the alternative ways of getting there. Find a more efficient way if getting there or sit there in your car frustrated because you've made the wrong choice - I don't care which to be honest!

Seth Brundle · 07-07-2020 5:28pm

appledrop wrote: »

Also as I've said before + I'll say again park belongs to everyone. You will see regs from every part of Ireland in zoo car park.

...what' your point. Park your car there if you want - nobody is stopping you. Just expect delays!
Also as you say, the park is for everyone. Not just for those who drive there.

jim salter · 07-07-2020 5:30pm

If it hasn't been posted already:

https://my.uplift.ie/petitions/reopen-gates-in-phoenix-park

beauf · 07-07-2020 5:30pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What? Your question doesn't make sense. How can an increase in congestion exacerbate known accidents or deaths?
If you're asking will people parking on the R109 increase congestion, incidents or deaths then maybe some research is required and if so then let's put down double yellows all along it.

If in the park, reducing car traffic and parking on the road, improves safety, surely. Is not the inverse true. If you increase parking and traffic somewhere else.

Seth Brundle · 07-07-2020 5:33pm

floorpie wrote: »

Looking at a map of Phoenix Park it seems comical to say that roads are a problem.

1) Why are pedestrians fixated on walking ON the road, in a massive park? What is the novelty here?

2) If car drivers should walk to the zoo as per comments ITT, why shouldn't pedestrians instead walk 10 seconds away from the road? This is the easier solution and benefits more people.

3) I've lived right beside the park so I've been in it many times during the Chesterfield Ave closures. The closed road is largely NOT used. You can walk up and down it for 2 hours and pass 10 people, you see same few people every weekend, and likely these people also live in the area. Why inconvenience many people for the benefit of a handful of privileged people?

4) It's repeatedly stated that cars are unsafe in the park, and implied that cyclists/pedestrians are more safe without them. What evidence is there for this? Anybody who's been in a pedestrianized park such as Central Park in NY knows that pedestrians and cyclists are NOT safe sharing the same roads. Incidents from both Central Park and Phoenix Park also bear this out.

5) If it is unsafe for pedestrians to share a throughway with cyclists, then it would be sensible for cyclists to have primary use of the car-free roads in the park. So, in essence you end up in the same situation: pedestrians have to be careful when crossing roads. Except far fewer people benefit from the throughway, and far fewer people can easily avail of a national park.

The solution is this:

1) Keep cyclists away from pedestrians (and vice versa) as best as possible, don't try to integrate them further.

2) It should not be allowed to park your car and leave the park. This is the main cause of excess cars in the park every day of the week: people who use it as free parking and then walk into town, for work or otherwise

3) Build a park and ride for *the Luas* somewhere near the area, e.g. the back of Heuston

4) Stop being selfish. The park is massive and at any given time is mostly empty. There is room for everyone

Waffle waffle waffle.
The changes to the park were made because there was and still is a need to social distance (it wasn't for cyclists despite the usual anti-cyclist ****e you read here).
The existing cycle path (which was used by pedestrians constantly) became another footpath. Cylists now have a somewhat segregated cycle path along Chesterfield Ave. As more and more people used the park during the lockdown (and traffic was restricted) the people enjoyed being able to use their park. Not that the restrictions have remained, the people were vocal that they wanted it to stay that way. The OPW have, so far, listened! Thankfully.

Seth Brundle · 07-07-2020 5:36pm

beauf wrote: »

If in the park, reducing car traffic and parking on the road, improves safety, surely. Is not the inverse true. If you increase parking and traffic somewhere else.

The OPW don't have control of the "somewhere else" but hopefully some people will decide to leave the car at home which might reduce the overall traffic volume. Either way it is the drivers making the decision to drive into what they know will be a congested area.

beauf · 07-07-2020 5:39pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Waffle waffle waffle.
The changes to the park were made because there was and still is a need to social distance (it wasn't for cyclists despite the usual anti-cyclist ****e you read here).
The existing cycle path (which was used by pedestrians constantly) became another footpath. Cylists now have a somewhat segregated cycle path along Chesterfield Ave. As more and more people used the park during the lockdown (and traffic was restricted) the people enjoyed being able to use their park. Not that the restrictions have remained, the people were vocal that they wanted it to stay that way. The OPW have, so far, listened! Thankfully.

Waffle waffle waffle.

The problem with the paths has been there for decades. Its only been highlighted, because people who don't normally go to the park, suddenly went to the park and experienced the issue for the first time. Many don't seem to have seen the park busy before.

If social distancing was truly peoples concern, you would avoid going to somewhere where you know was packed with other people. Its gigantic park. Why are you all walking on the same path and complaining about social distancing.

floorpie · 07-07-2020 5:40pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Waffle waffle waffle.
The changes to the park were made because there was and still is a need to social distance

This is an acceptable change for the duration of rules that require significant social distancing

As more and more people used the park during the lockdown (and traffic was restricted) the people enjoyed being able to use their park.

This doesn't make sense. In what way does the use of a road improve people's ability to enjoy the park? A traffic restriction clearly reduces people's ability to enjoy the park overall.

beauf · 07-07-2020 5:47pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The OPW don't have control of the "somewhere else" but hopefully some people will decide to leave the car at home which might reduce the overall traffic volume. Either way it is the drivers making the decision to drive into what they know will be a congested area.

There is a safety consequence of people and the OPW promoting parking and congestion all around the park, with no prior planning and consultation. But as you say its these peoples decision to promote that.

beauf · 07-07-2020 5:50pm

floorpie wrote: »

....This doesn't make sense. In what way does the use of a road improve people's ability to enjoy the park? A traffic restriction clearly reduces people's ability to enjoy the park overall....

Its improves the park for the people who can access it under the current restrictions. For some it was better again under the 2k rule and the main gates also closed.

They could do this with all the beaches and piers around the place. Remove all the parking there also. Make them all much nicer.

ronivek · 07-07-2020 5:52pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I find that it's more pleasant to use the park but pretty much the same to get to it. You must be doing something wrong if you're not experiencing if you're finding it worse!

Good job dodging the question. I'm happy in your specific case you don't have any additional difficulty getting to the park; but for many people that is not the case.

Seth Brundle · 07-07-2020 6:03pm

floorpie wrote: »

This doesn't make sense. In what way does the use of a road improve people's ability to enjoy the park? A traffic restriction clearly reduces people's ability to enjoy the park overall.

Really?
There's plenty of videos on YouTube of people making use of the park without fear of getting knocked down.

Seth Brundle · 07-07-2020 6:04pm

ronivek wrote: »

Good job dodging the question. I'm happy in your specific case you don't have any additional difficulty getting to the park; but for many people that is not the case.

How did I dodge the question? In fact I answered if fully! You just wanted me to tell you how to get your car there I guess!

ronivek · 07-07-2020 6:43pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

How did I dodge the question? In fact I answered if fully! You just wanted me to tell you how to get your car there I guess!

If I wanted to know that I would have asked the question and you could have failed to answer that one too; wouldn't that be fun? Discussion boards where nobody discusses anything; and this from a moderator of the Politics forum no less.

Shefwedfan · 07-07-2020 6:57pm

beauf wrote: »

That you think it takes Covid to fill that car park shows how out of touch with reality these comments are.

Car park for the Zoo is Frequently overflowing. Has been since they built the new car park as are all the roads around it, everyone is crammed onto the grass on a busy day and all up and down the avenue. People going to the zoo are obvious with day bags for the kids and a buggy or two.

But for sure they can all park 30 mins walk away, and/or park on all the side streets nearby. Its certainly worth trying that for 6 months.

When did I say it was only due to covid the car park was full?

floorpie · 07-07-2020 7:04pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Really?
There's plenty of videos on YouTube of people making use of the park without fear of getting knocked down.

You could make use of the M50 without fear of getting knocked down if you restrict the access of cars. My question was how does being allowed to use the main road improve people's ability to enjoy the park, not the road. Maybe some videos would help if you have them handy.

beauf · 07-07-2020 7:18pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

When did I say it was only due to covid the car park was full?

Why mention it otherwise...

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I...if anything it should be busier than normal because of these people still off work while things reopen....

..none of these people can travel so yes I would expect everything to be jammed.....

We've been here before with the zoo parking....

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/plans-to-build-car-park-near-zoo-criticised-1.953685

Shefwedfan · 07-07-2020 7:48pm

beauf wrote: »

Why mention it otherwise...

We've been here before with the zoo parking....

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/plans-to-build-car-park-near-zoo-criticised-1.953685

Why would they build the car park in the zoo when they can build it outside and bring people in and out?

TheValeyard · 07-07-2020 8:16pm

Park is great the way it is. Open to all and excellent amenities. Just open back up the gates and return to normal

Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

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