Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

polesheep

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

Drive it in normal traffic. Took longer than I expected too. Minimum 20 mins from chapelizod entrance gate to parking at papal cross, within speed limits, low traffic.

I'm sorry, but this is not true. I use that road daily. Right now, on Google maps, it's showing 11 minutes by car and there is traffic on the Conyingham road.

Former Former

polesheep wrote: »

That's not true. Where in the Park can you not go from Chesterfield Avenue on foot?

See, you're only looking at it from YOUR perspective which is the fundamental problem here. Like the Greens and the cyclists who want to modify park usage and access to suit themselves. That's absolutely fine but let's be honest about it.

You cannot walk from Chesterfield Avenue to the Furry Glen or Ashtown Castle if you're pushing a buggy and you have a four-year old walking with you. Suggesting otherwise is lying.

polesheep

liamog wrote: »

The current outrageous parking and traffic situation is caused by the removal of parking on Chesterfield Avenue. If anything closure of vehicular access via the gates only increased the level of traffic within the park as you now needed to spend more time driving within the park to get to the limited parking areas. This is now mitigated thanks to reopening the gates.

The solution is to limit cars to Chesterfield Avenue with paid parking. The resistance to this comes from those who use Chesterfield as a quicker route into the City or to park'n'ride.

hardybuck

polesheep wrote: »

The argument that the park is for everyone is trotted out in defence of car access. Yet when someone takes a position against car access, suddenly it's not for everyone but only for regular visitors.

As I said above, close off all roads except Chesterfield and make it paid parking. You have to pay to park at the majority of attractions throughout the country. Make NCR gate Garda headquarters access only and Chapelizod gate Mary's Hospital access only.

Either open all the gates or close the Castleknock Gate too. There is no way the people of Castleknock will accept the village being turned into a car park for the latest whims of the Green Party.

JimmyVik

Former Former wrote: »

See, you're only looking at it from YOUR perspective which is the fundamental problem here. Like the Greens and the cyclists who want to modify park usage and access to suit themselves. That's absolutely fine but let's be honest about it.

You cannot walk from Chesterfield Avenue to the Furry Glen or Ashtown Castle if you're pushing a buggy and you have a four-year old walking with you. Suggesting otherwise is lying.

Or pensioners.

polesheep

Former Former wrote: »

See, you're only looking at it from YOUR perspective which is the fundamental problem here. Like the Greens and the cyclists who want to modify park usage and access to suit themselves. That's absolutely fine but let's be honest about it.

You cannot walk from Chesterfield Avenue to the Furry Glen or Ashtown Castle if you're pushing a buggy and you have a four-year old walking with you. Suggesting otherwise is lying.

Ashtown castle is less than four hundred metres from Chesterfield Avenue using the footpath and less than two hundred using a trail.

Former Former

Maybe we just section off part of the park as car-free?

That way, the city-dwelling hipsters would have a safe space to discuss the best place to get a burrito and the benefits of a lentil enema, and the cycling jihadis could discuss the merits of obscenely tight lycra shorts and what anti-car campaign they're ALL going to jump on next?

Then 95% of the city's inhabitants who are neither of the above can use the rest of the park as we always have done.

polesheep

JimmyVik wrote: »

Or pensioners.

Are pensioners permitted to drive their car right up onto the Cliffs of Moher? I've a feeling that they have to park their car in the car park.

Former Former

polesheep wrote: »

Ashtown castle is less than four hundred metres from Chesterfield Avenue using the footpath and less than two hundred using a trail.

That assumes you can get a parking spot at the exact closest spot to Ashtown Castle, which you won't.

polesheep

Former Former wrote: »

Maybe we just section off part of the park as car-free?

That way, the city-dwelling hipsters would have a safe space to discuss the best place to get a burrito and the benefits of a lentil enema, and the cycling jihadis could discuss the merits of obscenely tight lycra shorts and what anti-car campaign they're ALL going to jump on next?

Then 95% of the city's inhabitants who are neither of the above can use the rest of the park as we always have done.

Good idea. The parts either side of Chesterfield Avenue.

polesheep

Former Former wrote: »

That assumes you can get a parking spot at the exact closest spot to Ashtown Castle, which you won't.

And maybe you will. What happens when you drive into the City? Is there a convenient parking space waiting for you next to wherever you are going to? Or do you walk with your buggy from your parking space to your destination?

Birdie Num Num

trellheim wrote: »

Sorry - to be clear I am no fan of having them closed to pedestrians. and in fact apart from the Gemma o Doherty fiasco, they never were . My issue is with motor cars, mainly those passing through but also those who do not give a stuff and park where they like

A reasonable compromise in my view was the two gates being left open but people just could not accept compromise ( and lets remember AGAIN - no gates were closed , no rights of way were interfered with , anyone could park outside and walk in - and they still can )

That reasonable compromise would be a fiasco and a huge compromise to surrounding areas. Traffic will be choked in those adjoining areas and the Chesterfield Avenue itself will be bumper to bumper as was already evident. Gates were closed and parking was restricted both inside and outside the Park. White's Road a case in point. I am someone who generally visits the Park regularly, up to several days a week. I very rarely Park inside the Phoenix Park. I can park in a private car park outside the Park with easy access to a gate but I do enjoy driving to the visitor's centre also. Oddly enough my visiting the Park has been much less in recent months both due to the covid restrictions (2K rule) and legacy restrictions since. The car park (outside) I would normally park in was closed (covid) and the road I might park on (White's Road) also restricted. My only alternative bar walking / running to the Park, which I very often do was to park up within the Park.

I don't mean to give a history lesson but the Park has developed from a dense woodland. It is 1750 odd acres and once stretched over the liffey encompassing Island bridge and where the Royal Hospital Kilmainham is now located. It's gates opened in the mid 18th century to the public and allow horse and carriages, horse and traps. The city has evolved around the Park and the city's development good or bad to this day has been influenced by the size of the Park and it's location. It is a wonderful amenity and wilderness to enjoy. Like it or not it has evolved as a through road and the other gates are vital for the flow of the city and surrounding area. But to just one day decide that it's no longer a through road or all the side gates should remain closed is just daft. That is not in anyway to excuse irresponsible drivers and irresponsible parking. There is plenty of parking that is under used and the restrictions that the OPW normally enforce in terms of road bollards and restrictions around events is to my mind moderate. The closure of all the side gates permanently would be disastrous and I would be surprised if it was a unilateral decision by the OPW within the Park.

JimmyVik

Former Former wrote: »

Maybe we just section off part of the park as car-free?

That way, the city-dwelling hipsters would have a safe space to discuss the best place to get a burrito and the benefits of a lentil enema, and the cycling jihadis could discuss the merits of obscenely tight lycra shorts and what anti-car campaign they're ALL going to jump on next?

Then 95% of the city's inhabitants who are neither of the above can use the rest of the park as we always have done.

99% of the park is car free. Loads of space for everyone.

liamog

polesheep wrote: »

The solution is to limit cars to Chesterfield Avenue with paid parking. The resistance to this comes from those who use Chesterfield as a quicker route into the City or to park'n'ride.

I don't think it needs to be paid, but a 5 hour parking limit would stop it's use as a commuter parking lot. They should also prioritise the extension of the Green Line Luas towards the M50 so a proper Park&Ride facility can be developed for commuters North West of the Liffey.

Transport planning needs to be a joined up process.

Skylinehead

Former Former wrote: »

You cannot walk from Chesterfield Avenue to the Furry Glen or Ashtown Castle if you're pushing a buggy and you have a four-year old walking with you. Suggesting otherwise is lying.

That's like 500m and a kilometre respectively. Add a few hundred metres if your exact parking space isn't available.

And saying that's walkable is lying? Get out of it.

reg114

Dublin zoo is one of the most popular tourist attractions in the state, they could easily put on shuttle buses to and from Parkgate St and to and from the Castleknock entrance. The park is served very well by all modes of public transport.

Ultimately its a park. All cars should be banned from the park. Anyone who has used the park in recent months will have seen how much better the park is without all the cursed cars.

Judging by the sheer volume of cars driving through Chesterfield avenue during rush hour, the park has been used and abused by successive gov's failed public transport and housing policies. It is unacceptable for this to continue.

Only recently Dublin port were given the green light for a 320 million euro expansion which is crazy. Instead the port land mass which is huge and a stones throw from the city centre, should be reclaimed for housing tens of thousands of citizens. Its the absence of a coherent housing plan that has seen so many relocate to the periphery of the county and thus use the park as a perceived short cut to the city centre. So there multiple factors at play here, ultimately all of which are underpinned by a shocking short-sightedness by our politicians and public servants and an apathetic electorate.

Larbre34

Skylinehead wrote: »

That's like 500m and a kilometre respectively. Add a few hundred metres if your exact parking space isn't available.

And saying that's walkable is lying? Get out of it.

I've been one of the most vocal about getting those gates open and have no problem admitting I made representations to Leo, Jack Chambers, Emer Currie, Paul Donnelly - in fact every TD and Councillor bounding the Park who wasn't a Green.

By far the biggest reason that motivated me to do it, was some older neighbours and friends locally, who like to drive to the Park a couple of times a week to stretch their legs, get some fresh air and particularly in the Covid period, get a change of scene to keep their mental health in check.

For the duration of the last few months, they haven't been able to do this easily, or in any peace or comfort. In fact, some weekends recently, so bad was the congestion approaching Castleknock gate due to the side gates being closed, they gave up and went home.

Now these people I know are retired, but for the peak of their working years they kept a tough Irish economy going and paid their income tax at 60%, so pardon me if I think they have as much right as any person to avail comfortably of this great amenity, without being patronised by the likes of you telling them HOW FAR THEY ARE DAMN WELL ABLE TO WALK OR UNABLE TO WALK JUST COS YOU BLOODY WELL THINK IT!!

blanch152

If the cars of ordinary people are so detrimental to the Park, why are the Taoiseach, the President and the American Ambassador allowed maintain residences there?

Getting rid of them to free up more space would be much more palatable and fair.

polesheep

liamog wrote: »

I don't think it needs to be paid, but a 5 hour parking limit would stop it's use as a commuter parking lot. They should also prioritise the extension of the Green Line Luas towards the M50 so a proper Park&Ride facility can be developed for commuters North West of the Liffey.

Transport planning needs to be a joined up process.

I think it should be paid (a small fee) and time limited. The fee collected could be used to pay for free shuttle buses running to the different attractions in the park. Walk onto the shuttle, with your child still in the buggy, and walk off at your destination. Access for the shuttles onto the other roads could be controlled by automatic bollards. The visitors are there to see the attractions, their cars don't need to see them.

Birdie Num Num

reg114 wrote: »

Dublin zoo is one of the most popular tourist attractions in the state, they could easily put on shuttle buses to and from Parkgate St and to and from the Castleknock entrance. The park is served very well by all modes of public transport.

Ultimately its a park. All cars should be banned from the park. Anyone who has used the park in recent months will have seen how much better the park is without all the cursed cars.

Judging by the sheer volume of cars driving through Chesterfield avenue during rush hour, the park has been used and abused by successive gov's failed public transport and housing policies. It is unacceptable for this to continue.

Only recently Dublin port were given the green light for a 320 million euro expansion which is crazy. Instead the port land mass which is huge and a stones throw from the city centre, should be reclaimed for housing tens of thousands of citizens. Its the absence of a coherent housing plan that has seen so many relocate to the periphery of the county and thus use the park as a perceived short cut to the city centre. So there multiple factors at play here, ultimately all of which are underpinned by a shocking short-sightedness by our politicians and public servants and an apathetic electorate.

I'm not sure what you were witnessing compared to me on the few occasions I could get to the park but traffic and parking was ridiculous compared to normal.

Also check out how successful the shuttle bus concept was when it was last in place. Not a sinner used it.

polesheep

Larbre34 wrote: »

I've been one of the most vocal about getting those gates open and have no problem admitting I made representations to Leo, Jack Chambers, Emer Currie, Paul Donnelly - in fact every TD and Councillor bounding the Park who wasn't a Green.

By far the biggest reason that motivated me to do it, was some older neighbours and friends locally, who like to drive to the Park a couple of times a week to stretch their legs, get some fresh air and particularly in the Covid period, get a change of scene to keep their mental health in check.

For the duration of the last few months, they haven't been able to do this easily, or in any peace or comfort. In fact, some weekends recently, so bad was the congestion approaching Castleknock gate due to the side gates being closed, they gave up and went home.

Now these people I know are retired, but for the peak of their working years they kept a tough Irish economy going and paid their income tax at 60%, so pardon me if I think they have as much right as any person to avail comfortably of this great amenity, without being patronised by the likes of you telling them HOW FAR THEY ARE DAMN WELL ABLE TO WALK OR UNABLE TO WALK JUST COS YOU BLOODY WELL THINK IT!!

So you think that people should be able to park their cars wherever they want in the Park? No need to shout your reply, I am listening. And be honest, the worsened traffic issue in Castleknock was created by giving permission for a Lidl supermarket in a crazy location.

ronivek

reg114 wrote: »

Ultimately its a park. All cars should be banned from the park. Anyone who has used the park in recent months will have seen how much better the park is without all the cursed cars.

It's an urban amenity park; it's not a wilderness nature reserve. More than 100 years ago it was literally used for motor racing; and has been used to host such events ever since. It has also been open to all forms of transport including horse and cart and drawn carriages; right up to modern electric vehicles.

As far as it being better without cars I wouldn't disagree; but where I disagree is the manner in which this is accomplished and the impact this has on people who have been utilising the park as an amenity until the Covid-19 crisis hit.

As to arguments about long-term planning in Ireland I don't disagree either; but closing the park to cars isn't going to suddenly prompt the commencement of some new-fangled capital expenditure plan with a bunch of imaginary money.

polesheep

blanch152 wrote: »

If the cars of ordinary people are so detrimental to the Park, why are the Taoiseach, the President and the American Ambassador allowed maintain residences there?

Getting rid of them to free up more space would be much more palatable and fair.

It also once included the Papal Nunciature, and the allocation of those residences tells you everything you need to know about the De VaLera era, but that's another story.

polesheep

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

I'm not sure what you were witnessing compared to me on the few occasions I could get to the park but traffic and parking was ridiculous compared to normal.

Also check out how successful the shuttle bus concept was when it was last in place. Not a sinner used it.

Why would you use it when you could drive to the same locations?

blanch152

polesheep wrote: »

So you think that people should be able to park their cars wherever they want in the Park? No need to shout your reply, I am listening. And be honest, the worsened traffic issue in Castleknock was created by giving permission for a Lidl supermarket in a crazy location.

The Bois de Boulogne in Paris has much more extensive car parking than the Phoenix Park, and it is a great place to walk.

liamog

blanch152 wrote: »

The Bois de Boulogne in Paris has much more extensive car parking than the Phoenix Park, and it is a great place to walk.

That pretty much sums it up, people who live on the city side of the park treat it like Jardin Du Luxembourg, people who live on the suburb side of the park treat it like Bois de Boulogne.

reg114

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

I'm not sure what you were witnessing compared to me on the few occasions I could get to the park but traffic and parking was ridiculous compared to normal.

Also check out how successful the shuttle bus concept was when it was last in place. Not a sinner used it.

Well there was no incentive to take a shuttlebus while people were still allowed to virtually drive to the front door of the zoo. Youy ban cars , then I guarantee you people will fill the shuttlebuses.

As far as traffic and parking in recent months are concerned, when you close multiple gates and remove chesterfield avenue as a parking option, you are going to see an effect. I cycled through the park on most occasions in recent months and found it to be a joy. Like I said if cars are banned completely it would be an even better experience.

Larbre34

Now, that all being said, I do hope the traffic and transport policy consultation happens very soon, as a balanced solution is desirable and urgently necessary. So, to be constructive, I'll be making my submission along the lines of the following. What do you all think?

Perimeter gates should all be open, but all one-way either in or out only, in an alternating arrangement

This should dovetail with all the perimeter roads being own-way also, with half of each road turned over to high-quality cycletrack and walkways, similar to the section already in place going by the Wellington tribute obelisk.

Each junction within the Park should be tightened, traffic calmed and have priority crossing points for cyclists and walkers where they interact with car traffic.

Random car parking should be eliminated, but a sensible amount of parking should be added to serve the many amenities, with lots of priority space for mobility impaired, family groups etc. These should be connected by an electric shuttle bus service circulating the Park from dawn to dusk all year.

I don't believe parking charges are appropriate, but a monitoring system should be in place to limit all parking to 5 hours, more than enough for most leisure visits, but too short for commuter parking and so will gradually eliminate it.

Like it or not, Chesterfield Avenue is a traffic route, but the beauty of it is the priority and so traffic should be calmed (not ramps) , plenty of crossing points included and cycling, walking, shuttle and sightseeing buses prioritised. During summer weekends, it should be closed off as it has been in previous summers for events, markets, races, festivals etc, with traffic using the perimeter one-ways to get where it needs to go.

Larbre34

ronivek wrote: »

It's an urban amenity park; it's not a wilderness nature reserve. More than 100 years ago it was literally used for motor racing

The annual race meeting happened most years from 1903 to around 2010. It was even the Irish Grand Prix in the 20s and 30s!

I saw Formula 1 cars and DTM Touring cars lap the big triangle circuit in my youth and it was glorious. Would love to see it come back in the summertime.

reg114

ronivek wrote: »

It's an urban amenity park; it's not a wilderness nature reserve. More than 100 years ago it was literally used for motor racing; and has been used to host such events ever since. It has also been open to all forms of transport including horse and cart and drawn carriages; right up to modern electric vehicles.

As far as it being better without cars I wouldn't disagree; but where I disagree is the manner in which this is accomplished and the impact this has on people who have been utilising the park as an amenity until the Covid-19 crisis hit.

As to arguments about long-term planning in Ireland I don't disagree either; but closing the park to cars isn't going to suddenly prompt the commencement of some new-fangled capital expenditure plan with a bunch of imaginary money.

Huge difference between a few races involving a dozen Model T Fords a century ago through the park and allowing tens of thousands of cars to use it as a rat run daily. You're right it isnt a nature reserve, but we arent talking about the need for a Dublin version of the Serengeti, we are simply talking about making that urban amenity you allude to, car free. The entire country is choking with cars, one civic space without cars near the city centre isnt asking alot.