Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

polesheep

Close all roads bar the avenue and turn that into pay parking.

liamog

Seth Brundle wrote: »

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* any changes in terms of access and parking are due for one reason only - the behaviour of drivers. Following the initial lockdown, the issues in terms of dangerous driving and parking returned. It was deemed that during a level 5 lockdown, people needed to be able to use the park without the danger posed by drivers. It wasn't the OPW or the gardai that created this need.
* the issues within the park caused by dangerous driving and parking are visible right across the city to those who wish to see it. You have pretty much confirmed this in your statement about it being dangerous for your kids to cycle and your parents to walk. But yet you seem to want to continue letting drivers do as they wish within the park
Currently changes are being made to improve safety for cyclists around Dublin despite opposition from some local groups who want the status quo. Surely, it would be better in the log term if people's ire was towards the problem rather than interim solutions?

I think this is a misrepresentation of the measures introduced in the park.

Initially, the cycle lane alongside Chesterfield Avenue was removed and converted to pedestrian space, this was to increase the available space for pedestrians to account for both the increased number of people using the park for recreation after other options were removed, and to allow for increased social distancing between pedestrians.
The parking on Chesterfield Avenue was then removed, and converted into a bike path as a replacement.

During the higher level lockdowns, the park gates are closed to vehicular traffic to reduce the desirability of the park as a destination as people are meant to stay within a 5km radius for recreational activity.

It has nothing to do with dangerous driving.

Larbre34

liamog wrote: »

During the higher level lockdowns, the park gates are closed to vehicular traffic to reduce the desirability of the park as a destination as people are meant to stay within a 5km radius for recreational activity.

Quite correct.

But, considering somewhere between 215,000 and 260,000 people live within 5km of the Park and that the lack of other open destinations (shops, gyms etc) has made the Park MORE attractive rather than less during Level 5, the OPW and the Guards need to have a serious look at their decisions versus the reality of the situation.

beauf

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Just to clarify a few things:
* the park has not been restricted to users. Vehicular access has been restricted with access via the Chesterfield Ave gates only. Pedestrians and cyclists can access the park as normal.
* any changes in terms of access and parking are due for one reason only - the behaviour of drivers. Following the initial lockdown, the issues in terms of dangerous driving and parking returned. It was deemed that during a level 5 lockdown, people needed to be able to use the park without the danger posed by drivers. It wasn't the OPW or the gardai that created this need.
* the issues within the park caused by dangerous driving and parking are visible right across the city to those who wish to see it. You have pretty much confirmed this in your statement about it being dangerous for your kids to cycle and your parents to walk. But yet you seem to want to continue letting drivers do as they wish within the park
Currently changes are being made to improve safety for cyclists around Dublin despite opposition from some local groups who want the status quo. Surely, it would be better in the log term if people's ire was towards the problem rather than interim solutions?
* in terms of the OPW's management of the park, what do you expect them to do when hundreds of drivers descend upon the park at the weekend, all expecting to be able to park? Do you think drivers should be given more priority over other park users? What is it that you expect from the OPW on this?

They changed the cycle lanes in the park due to the danger of cyclists to pedestrians.

So by the same logic cyclists should be restricted so that pedestrians should have more priority and more safety.

Fiddle Castro

beauf wrote: »

They changed the cycle lanes in the park due to the danger of cyclists to pedestrians.

Where are you pulling this one from?

beauf

Fiddle Castro wrote: »

Where are you pulling this one from?

The first lock down before general car access was opened up again. In the good weather so many were using the park they had move the cyclists off the chesterfield cycle path on to the road. They had to separate pedestrians and cyclists.

.. And some were pointing out this is less friendly for families cycling...

I've said before there are two types of cyclists. Those going high speed and those just ambling along at slow speed.

Fiddle Castro

So it's just another of your theories, with no evidence to back it up?

Hurrache

beauf wrote: »

The first lock down before general car access was opened up again. In the good weather so many were using the park they had move the cyclists off the chesterfield cycle path on to the road. They had to separate pedestrians and cyclists.

.. And some were pointing out this is less friendly for families cycling...

So, where's the back up that they were rearranged because cyclists were a danger?

beauf

Fiddle Castro wrote: »

So it's just another of your theories, with no evidence to back it up?

It's got nothing to do with me. It was the reason the opw gave when they moved the lanes onto the road. There was the fatal accident on the cycle lane a few years ago that was probably a factor.

Hardly news, the problems of the cycle lanes on chesterfield ave are often reported on and the Garda have also commented on them as well. For many years. It's been a frequent topic on boards as well over the years.

Fiddle Castro

beauf wrote: »

It was the reason the opw gave when they moved the lanes onto the road.

I haven't seen this reason given by OPW.

https://www.gov.ie/en/news/2277b-opw-encourages-pedestrians-and-cyclists-to-enjoy-the-natural-landscape-of-the-park/

"In recent weeks, we have introduced 7 kilometres of new cycle lanes to ensure social distancing can be maintained by walkers and cyclists alike."

Stop making stuff up.

Grudaire

If only there was win-win options like having *any* public transport through the park..

VonLuck

Fiddle Castro wrote: »

I haven't seen this reason given by OPW.

https://www.gov.ie/en/news/2277b-opw-encourages-pedestrians-and-cyclists-to-enjoy-the-natural-landscape-of-the-park/

"In recent weeks, we have introduced 7 kilometres of new cycle lanes to ensure social distancing can be maintained by walkers and cyclists alike."

Stop making stuff up.

It was in the pipeline for a while and not just a Covid measure: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-02-21/82/

beauf

Fiddle Castro wrote: »

I haven't seen this reason given by OPW.

https://www.gov.ie/en/news/2277b-opw-encourages-pedestrians-and-cyclists-to-enjoy-the-natural-landscape-of-the-park/

"In recent weeks, we have introduced 7 kilometres of new cycle lanes to ensure social distancing can be maintained by walkers and cyclists alike."

Stop making stuff up.

Current cycling and pedestrian usage has raised significant new road safety issues not experienced before to this extent and these will be exacerbated with the reintroduction of vehicles into the Phoenix Park.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/691f78-opw-announces-social-distancing-plan-for-the-phoenix-park/#

Does it really matter. That path has been a irritant for years. The OPW approach to traffic management and cycling management has not being very consistent over the years.

Fiddle Castro

beauf wrote: »

They changed the cycle lanes in the park due to the danger of cyclists to pedestrians.

So by the same logic cyclists should be restricted so that pedestrians should have more priority and more safety.

"They changed the cycle lanes in the park due to the danger of cyclists to pedestrians. " iis very different than "Current cycling and pedestrian usage has raised significant new road safety issues not experienced before to this extent and these will be exacerbated with the reintroduction of vehicles into the Phoenix Park."

Where's the logic there?

beauf

"road safety issues" doesn't seem ambiguous.

liamog

VonLuck wrote: »

It was in the pipeline for a while and not just a Covid measure: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-02-21/82/

Interesting number from that link, removing the parking from Chesterfield Avenue accounts for "approximately 1245 spaces", is it any surprise that parking is so complex in the park this year.

Stark

Makes sense. You've got 3.5km of hard shoulder in both directions (7km total). Divide that by 5.5m (reasonable estimate for car length + buffer space) and you get that number.

Larbre34

Fiddle Castro wrote: »

I haven't seen this reason given by OPW.

https://www.gov.ie/en/news/2277b-opw-encourages-pedestrians-and-cyclists-to-enjoy-the-natural-landscape-of-the-park/

"In recent weeks, we have introduced 7 kilometres of new cycle lanes to ensure social distancing can be maintained by walkers and cyclists alike."

Stop making stuff up.

This was overturned one week later.

raheny red

https://twitter.com/John_Kilraine/status/1348602637793566721?s=19

raheny red

raheny red wrote: »

https://twitter.com/John_Kilraine/status/1348602637793566721?s=19

That’s great news tut this is being proposed and something I’ve been wanting to see for ages. Side gates should provide access to parking, just inside the gates, but not through routes. The pandemic has shown how pleasant the park can be for all users without the volume of through traffic

liamog

I can see them keeping Chesterfield as a through route, but if they installed bus gates on all the side roads from it except the Papal Cross and ran a zero emission feeder bus around the park it would make a huge difference.

Seth Brundle

As I understand it there will also be a 30km/h limit on Chesterfield Ave and multiple pedestrian crossing points.

Dr_Colossus

Seth Brundle wrote: »

As I understand it there will also be a 30km/h limit on Chesterfield Ave and multiple pedestrian crossing points.

What good is that going to be, there's a 30km/h limit already on the quays which I've never once seen enforced.
As with everything in this country all the guidelines and limits in the world mean nothing if there's no enforcement as was evident with the cycle lanes on Chesterfield Avenue being full with parked cars on 24-Dec and not one parking ticket/clamp but perhaps they were towing.

liamog

liamog wrote: »

I can see them keeping Chesterfield as a through route, but if they installed bus gates on all the side roads from it except the Papal Cross and ran a zero emission feeder bus around the park it would make a huge difference.

Yes, Chesterfield needs to be maintained as a through route, since messing around with that would mean that all other aspects of the plan will get killed off. I hope that the ban on parking on Chesterfield remains though

A zero emission bus around the park would address the access issue that many have a problem with when through traffic restrictions are ever discussed

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, Chesterfield needs to be maintained as a through route, since messing around with that would mean that all other aspects of the plan will get killed off. I hope that the ban on parking on Chesterfield remains though

The ban on parking on Chesterfield has been the worst part of the restrictions this year and is basically the cause of the traffic issues. If you remove 1,245 parking spaces from a destination, don't be surprised when people who want to use the destination end up driving more to find spaces. Parking should be delivered somewhere else either in/or next to the park. If done so, the busses will have to allow dogs onboard.

Larbre34

Yeah most of what has been outlined in the RTÉ report is in the right direction, I'll be interested to see the divil in the detail.

Theres a public consultation coming so still a chance to see a good balance achieved.

I personally feel that isolating the local side gates could well create more problems than it solves in terms of localised congestion inside and outside those gates affecting residential neighbourhoods.

My preference would still be for a long one-way, traffic calmed loop for cars on the perimeter roads, with the other half of the roadway turned into a high quality two-way cycle track - basically to continue what is beside the Wellington monument the whole way around the perimeter.

This means the various car parking is maximised, and that will be important if the parking ban on Chesterfield Avenue is to be made permanent.

The shuttle bus is a good idea too, for tourists and distant visitors, but as someone who visits the Park 4 times a week to go running or meet family (in normal times) from my home north of the park, I wouldn't be going out of my way to use it.

liamog

liamog wrote: »

The ban on parking on Chesterfield has been the worst part of the restrictions this year and is basically the cause of the traffic issues. If you remove 1,245 parking spaces from a destination, don't be surprised when people who want to use the destination end up driving more to find spaces. Parking should be delivered somewhere else either in/or next to the park. If done so, the busses will have to allow dogs onboard.

I think it was the best thing!
It has made chesterfield ave a far safer place. And tbh, the car parks have not been full at all, so there was clearly plenty of parking for park users, it was commuters and /or lazy drivers parking along the avenue.

Former Former Former

Actually doesn't sound like the worst proposal. I would be surprised if the shuttle bus takes off but we'll see.

blanch152

Seth Brundle wrote: »

As I understand it there will also be a 30km/h limit on Chesterfield Ave and multiple pedestrian crossing points.

I don't think that the Chesterfield Ave changes in isolation are a problem. The problem is simply that together with the restrictive nature of Chapelizod Village, increased congestion on Chesterfield Ave is inevitable once the bus gate is installed on the Old Cabra Road for Bus Connects and Dublin 15 will then be effectively cut off from the city, other than through Phibsboro and the M50.

beauf

bubblypop wrote: »

I think it was the best thing!
It has made chesterfield ave a far safer place. And tbh, the car parks have not been full at all, so there was clearly plenty of parking for park users, it was commuters and /or lazy drivers parking along the avenue.

Its often been packed at the weekends and during the holidays, since Covid, with car parks full and park users parked all over the place, on the grass everywhere. So repeat it's only commuter's causing the issue all you want but it's not the reality.

The reality is the park traffic plans can't cope with commuter's or park users when it's gets busy. The opw changes have caused chaos on a regular basis and have had to be reverted frequently.

At least they tried something different. But they need to keep trying because they haven't got the balance right yet.