Another wind generation record today

joseywhales

So aren't modern batteries really inefficient at storing energy? I had always assumed it was more efficient to pump water into a reservoir as a store for potential energy on a massive scale. I guess you need the natural reservoirs. Also transmission isn't free either long distance power lines are hardly very efficient unless you have extremely high voltage, given the resistance over thousands of miles of cable.

I am a fan of small reactors.

celtic_oz

joseywhales wrote: »

So aren't modern batteries really inefficient at storing energy? I had always assumed it was more efficient to pump water into a reservoir as a store for potential energy on a massive scale.

No.. the exact opposite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gemTSR0xmwA

Yellow_Fern

joseywhales wrote: »

So aren't modern batteries really inefficient at storing energy? I had always assumed it was more efficient to pump water into a reservoir as a store for potential energy on a massive scale. I guess you need the natural reservoirs. Also transmission isn't free either long distance power lines are hardly very efficient unless you have extremely high voltage, given the resistance over thousands of miles of cable.

I am a fan of small reactors.

They are efficient but they are nowhere near as energy dense as fossil fuels.

Biafranlivemat

why is there a need for batteries at all.
This talk about batteries is a fairly new thing, about 10 or so years.
For example the ESB in Ireland, generated electricity for many decades without needing batteries.
Why are batteries needed now.

Pa ElGrande

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

why is there a need for batteries at all.
This talk about batteries is a fairly new thing, about 10 or so years.
For example the ESB in Ireland, generated electricity for many decades without needing batteries.
Why are batteries needed now.

Government energy policy means they are being committed to a higher generation capacity from more random energy sources on the grid. Issues like frequency control (~50Hz) and spinning reserve become more challenging and costly when you add a greater capacity of random energy generation, that's on top of the usual grid transmission faults and planned maintenance operations. We are starting to see batteries deployed with wind turbines.

hi5

Use the excess renewable energy to produce a store of hydrogen, then use the hydrogen to produce electricity when the wind is not blowing.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/germany-plans-to-promote-green-hydrogen-with-e7-billion/

Muahahaha

Id wonder about the whole battery thing. They need rare earth metals and if all the car manufacturers are all going electric by 2030 thats going to place huge demand on the metals needed for them to work. Is there enough supply in the world of these rare earth metals to create billions of batteries?

joseywhales

celtic_oz wrote: »

No.. the exact opposite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gemTSR0xmwA

Yeah I don't have the expertise for this but I read this blog/white paper while trying to understand battery v reservoir

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cleantechnica.com/2020/04/25/how-long-can-lithium-ion-energy-storage-actually-last/amp/

His argument is against some age old mantra that batteries only have a 4 hour maximum storage period.

However he concludes he estimates 8-12 hours. So there have been days with no wind at all for 24 hours in Ireland, how do we have a constant supply using batteries in such conditions?

Again I've no background, so maybe batteries are somehow fine.

Reservoir has the advantage of almost infinite capacity up to the size of the reservoir and obviously less intense environmental impact over 100 years than battery production and replacement and recycle. There is the impact of a man made lake of course

Markcheese

Chemical batteries at a grid level are relatively new ,
But the esb built pumped storage at turlough hill (a giant water battery) in the 70s ...
It's another tool and makes it easier to "balance the grid " ( with or without wind ) ,
You can't plan on long term ( days ) battery storage at the moment it's too just too expensive...

celtic_oz

its like deja vu with electric cars


*batteries are too expensive*


5 years later.. oh they're not

Yellow_Fern

celtic_oz wrote: »

its like deja vu with electric cars


*batteries are too expensive*


5 years later.. oh they're not

Not saying many countries that rely on battery in large way. I think you are not looking at the physics.

celtic_oz

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Not saying many countries that rely on battery in large way. I think you are not looking at the physics.

Silly argument.. not that many people driving electric therefore they are crap.

Australia have more natural gas than they know to do with (5th largest reserves on the planet) and yet when faced with a decision on the hornsdale Tesla installation earlier this year they decided to double the amount of battery storage


And that’s while batteries are relatively expensive

The number of battery factories is set to explode

It’s over for gas peakers .. they are stranded

Biafranlivemat

celtic_oz wrote: »

Silly argument.. not that many people driving electric therefore they are crap.

Australia have more natural gas than they know to do with (5th largest reserves on the planet) and yet when faced with a decision on the hornsdale Tesla installation earlier this year they decided to double the amount of battery storage


And that’s while batteries are relatively expensive

The number of battery factories is set to explode

It’s over for gas peakers .. they are stranded

If the number of battery factories is set to explode, then they better increase the amount of child miners in the Congo.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/06/1067272

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2016/06/drc-cobalt-child-labour/

Yellow_Fern

celtic_oz wrote: »

Silly argument.. not that many people driving electric therefore they are crap.

Australia have more natural gas than they know to do with (5th largest reserves on the planet) and yet when faced with a decision on the hornsdale Tesla installation earlier this year they decided to double the amount of battery storage


And that’s while batteries are relatively expensive

The number of battery factories is set to explode

It’s over for gas peakers .. they are stranded

coal maybe in most regions but not in my opinion gas. i am sure batteries will explode, but that doesnt mean the end of gas. wing, solar and batteries have low front end costs, but create high back end costs. So they are popular to adopt but adoption does not correlate with carbon reductions. nuclear has enormous front end costs but all the data shows it is best positioned to reduce carbon emissions.

Biafranlivemat

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

If the number of battery factories is set to explode, then they better increase the amount of child miners in the Congo.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/06/1067272

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2016/06/drc-cobalt-child-labour/

Children in Africa need jobs too.
Would you rather see them unemployed?

Dakota Dan

celtic_oz wrote: »

Silly argument.. not that many people driving electric therefore they are crap.

Australia have more natural gas than they know to do with (5th largest reserves on the planet) and yet when faced with a decision on the hornsdale Tesla installation earlier this year they decided to double the amount of battery storage


And that’s while batteries are relatively expensive

The number of battery factories is set to explode

It’s over for gas peakers .. they are stranded

What’ is it like to be living in dreamland? Go back to sleep.

Cienciano

Battery storage is a load of shíte to be honest. Not for a whole country. We'd still need fossil fuel backup. The cost must KWH must be huge. How big would the storage have to be for a town like Drogheda? Including industry? Platin cement plant run on batteries?

Markcheese

Batteries are great , they're a fantastic grid level tool , and grid level Batteries don't have to be the latest ,most energy dense ,lightest most expensive ones ,
But gas ( or other fossil fuels ) are going to be a good part of the mix for the foreseeable , ( and I agree gas peakers are yesterday's news... )
But not gas powered power stations in general ,
Yes we could go for hydrogen production ... But it's horribly inefficient, and the storage isn't straight forward either ....

JohnnyFlash

Why would gas peakers be yesterday's news, but large scale gas like Dublin Bay, Tynagh, Aghada have a place? Not trying to catch you up here; just interested in why you'd see the need for large scale thermal generation.

celtic_oz

running a whole country off batteries ?? who said that

Do you know what a peaker plant is for ?

The solution is renewables , interconnectors and grid scale battery peaker plants

Watch Tony Seba here : https://youtu.be/6Ud-fPKnj3Q?t=622

celtic_oz

also this one https://youtu.be/LSKHKE4yAws?t=1551

watlantic

Even though they've got oil, Norway is well ahead in renewable energy (about 98%) with pumped-storage combined wind and hydro power. We've got loads of suitable lakes (the ideal clean batteries for energy storage) in the mountains around our coast, where plenty of wind is available, too. A very cost-effective solution and also the cleanest.
https://youtu.be/lsSUPpwtqhQ

Yellow_Fern

watlantic wrote: »

Even though they've got oil, Norway is well ahead in renewable energy (about 98%) with pumped-storage combined wind and hydro power. We've got loads of suitable lakes (the ideal clean batteries for energy storage) in the mountains around our coast, where plenty of wind is available, too. A very cost-effective solution and also the cleanest.
https://youtu.be/lsSUPpwtqhQ

Norway has an awesome system. They are blessed with incredible natural resources. Sadly most Irish lakes are shallower than theres and cant be dammed unlike Norway. Pumped storage is feasible here but it is not cheap.

watlantic

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Norway has an awesome system. They are blessed with incredible natural resources. Sadly most Irish lakes are shallower than theres and cant be dammed unlike Norway. Pumped storage is feasible here but it is not cheap.

Have you ever been anywhere in the mountains of the west of Ireland?
I could show you at least 50 such lakes (most of them very deep and high up between the mountains) that can compete with most of what Norway has, and here we've got the added advantage that there's no farms or dwellings in sight. Just mountain, commonage grazing, bog, rock, and lots of water. Plus even more 'hidden' valleys high up that could be dammed easily. You can't see them from any regular road, so tourism and scenic amenities would not be affected.
You'd have to walk most of the way, though. Some unsurfaced bog roads at best.:eek:

Yellow_Fern

watlantic wrote: »

Have you ever been anywhere in the mountains of the west of Ireland?
I could show you at least 50 such lakes (most of them very deep and high up between the mountains) that can compete with most of what Norway has, and here we've got the added advantage that there's no farms or dwellings in sight. Just mountain, commonage grazing, bog, rock, and lots of water. Plus even more 'hidden' valleys high up that could be dammed easily. You can't see them from any regular road, so tourism and scenic amenities would not be affected.
You'd have to walk most of the way, though. Some unsurfaced bog roads at best.:eek:

We do have nice lakes, but Norway has a vast amount of them. We have Turlough Hill and there is talk of this in Silvermines too but you'd need a huge number really for the whole country. I guess you are right that many tourists wouldn't notice but you are still transforming wild places for the sake of saving the environment which is a a strange way of doing things. Some sites might be off limits too due to the EU Habitats directive.

Pa ElGrande

Today May 1st - There is very little wind across the British Isles and where I sit it is overcast.



Wind turbine are only pushing 11 MW.. That 4% is mostly hydro-electric.



Meanwhile German coal phaseout – lasted only 8 days

Coal plant shutdowns have increased grid frequency instability

The large power plants are to primarily provide their rotational energy, i.e. run at full speed but not feed any electricity into the grid. The rotational energy is urgently needed to bridge the time needed by the medium- and peak-load power plants to deliver the missing power to the grid by adjusting the load accordingly. Smaller plants simply have too little flywheel mass to be able to provide this compensation. We described how to stabilize a power grid in more detail in the article “How to stabilize the power grid“. The number of these critical frequency drops has already risen sharply this year.

source

There is a rush for offshore wind Turbines (the new gold rush) but they come with significant capital and operating expenditures based on the experience of Danish company Ørsted. There are consequences for us being wholly dependent on random generated energy. Natural gas it turns out is the substantial back-up and balancing source for development of random energy sources and the electricity grid.