Overpriced ShoeBoxes

Ray Palmer

ted1 wrote: »

They are not better locations. Many people don’t want to live in the city. Especially places like Smithfield or the Docklands

Both horrific places at night with barely a soul to be seen at night. If you do see somebody you probably don't want to meet them

Marcusm

dotsman wrote: »

You're right, I can't see them being the same people either. My issue is I can't see the howth apartment as being suitable for anybody (young professionals, students, families, retired couples).

It is completely unsuitable for a retired couple. Even as a small 1-bed, it would be tight, but as a 2-bed micro apartment, it is useless for a retired couple, wasting valuable space on a second box-bedroom.

I'm not sure how you are defining secondary or tertiary, but the many of those apartments are in the IFSC. Another was in the Silicon Docks, the other a 2 minute walk from Stephens Green. All of which would be the definition of the ultimate in prime dublin city center location.

IFSC apartments very much secondary area for apartments and many of those you have cited would fall below that. IFSC has decent week day services but feck all in the evenings and weekends when most occupants would be there. Likewise, around Grand Canal Quay would be much less attractive than (say) The Gasworks a short walk away. Actual prime apartments in Dublin City centre are few and far between but centred around Baggot Street, Mount Street and, to an extent, Lesson Street. Clarendon Hall, for example, wouldn’t be much better than the tenement style shoeboxes which were built at the same time on Bachelor’s Walk and Arran Quay. Back in 92-95, these were very much built to a budget on cheap land with limited space and no amenities.

dotsman

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I don't know why you think it so unsuitable for everyone. I see no issue with it for most. The only issue would be a family with more than 1 child. Even then fine for a while.

Perfect for retired couples who sell a large family home and have a holiday home abroad they spend most of the year at. Desirable for them. Older people often need smaller properties so they don't have to walk as much to get to everything.

Students won't want to live there.
Young adults won't want to live there.
(the 2 main markets for apartments)
Families won't want to live there (regardless of how many children - do you really think a family with one child would fit - do you have any idea of how much room a child takes up?)
Retirees, while they don't need huge amounts of space, don't want to spend their retirement living in a prison cell.

ted1 wrote: »

They are not better locations. Many people don’t want to live in the city. Especially places like Smithfield or the Docklands

For the typical type of people who want to live in apartments (young professionals/students etc) they are. Very much so. For them, location is about convenience. Close to work, close to pubs/clubs, close to shops, close to friends, close to numerous public transport options (Dart, both luas lines, a range of bus routes as well as intercity transport links). It is why rent (a better gauge in terms of demand) is far higher in these locations.

dotsman

Marcusm wrote: »

IFSC apartments very much secondary area for apartments and many of those you have cited would fall below that. IFSC has decent week day services but feck all in the evenings and weekends when most occupants would be there. Likewise, around Grand Canal Quay would be much less attractive than (say) The Gasworks a short walk away. Actual prime apartments in Dublin City centre are few and far between but centred around Baggot Street, Mount Street and, to an extent, Lesson Street. Clarendon Hall, for example, wouldn’t be much better than the tenement style shoeboxes which were built at the same time on Bachelor’s Walk and Arran Quay. Back in 92-95, these were very much built to a budget on cheap land with limited space and no amenities.

Not sure what you mean by the services being different in the IFSC between day and evening/weekend. They are the same. What "services" are you talking about?
Living in the IFSC doesn't restrict people to the IFSC. You are in the city centre. You can walk, cycle or jump on the luas (right outside you apartment) and have all the services the city has to offer in a matter of minutes.


Secondly, the gasworks is in Grand Canal Quay - it is the same location. Also, it's pretty much the same euro-for-euro rent-wise.

Baggot/Leeson street are, of course, also prime locations. They are the "traditional" in-demand city centre locations. And as you can see from the rental market, pretty much on a par with the IFSC/Silicon Docks etc from a price/demand perspective.

With regards Clarendan hall, not sure if we are talking about the apartment building or the location. In terms of the location, it is extremely desirable. In terms of the building, it's far from the best (and you describe as a shoe-box), but is far far bigger than the apartment in howth (almost twice as big), which is what this discussion, and my original point is all about.

Ray Palmer

dotsman wrote: »

Students won't want to live there.
Young adults won't want to live there.
(the 2 main markets for apartments)
Families won't want to live there (regardless of how many children - do you really think a family with one child would fit - do you have any idea of how much room a child takes up?)
Retirees, while they don't need huge amounts of space, don't want to spend their retirement living in a prison cell.

Students couldn't afford to live there and I can assure you many would jump at it.
No idea why you say young people wouldn't want to live there. I have friends who rented apartments in Howth when younger. I have seen people living in much smaller places.

Yes I do expect a family with one child easily living there. I have seen people raise more children in a place marginally bigger and 4 adults lived there in the end..

Perfect for a single parent too.

Have you seen the size of the pensioner's accommodation dotted around the country? They are smaller and don't have any views. If you think that place is a prison cell then you have a strange view.

You seem to have a limited view if who lives in apartments that doesn't marry up with the reality of what happens. Not sure where you are located but I doubt you have seen who lives in apartments in Dublin and how many there are located all around Dublin outside the city. The main market is not students and young professionals and hasn't been for a long time

ec18

dotsman wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by the services being different in the IFSC between day and evening/weekend. They are the same. What "services" are you talking about?
Living in the IFSC doesn't restrict people to the IFSC. You are in the city centre. You can walk, cycle or jump on the luas (right outside you apartment) and have all the services the city has to offer in a matter of minutes.

I lived down there and you aren't in the city centre. realistically if you are past bus aras the luas could be every twenty mins at night and evening, not terrible by any means but the it's not a matter of minutes to the city centre, twenty - thirty minute walk and potentially the same on the luas if you miss one.

Secondly, the gasworks is in Grand Canal Quay - it is the same location. Also, it's pretty much the same euro-for-euro rent-wise.

Baggot/Leeson street are, of course, also prime locations. They are the "traditional" in-demand city centre locations. And as you can see from the rental market, pretty much on a par with the IFSC/Silicon Docks etc from a price/demand perspective.

While true the gasworks is that little bit closer to the aviva and the selection of pubs and restaurants around there than then quay area. Admittedly it's probably maybe a ten minute walk difference but it's a difference, personally I'd rather live at the gasworks then around the bord gais theatre

maxsmum

That apartment block in Howth is manky looking, an eyesore with terrible maintenance evident from the outside. It's like a hotel out of a horror movie. And although the interior pics are good, we all know what the estate agent's lens does to reality! There are a lot of steps outside the front so it may not even be a good 1 bed for a retiree.

JohnnyChimpo

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Both horrific places at night with barely a soul to be seen at night. If you do see somebody you probably don't want to meet them

This is the kind of thing you only get on Boards or the Journal... Smithfield is apparently Belgrade in the minds of some of the fragile posters here (?).

Just moved after living in Smithfield for 9 years and had absolutely zero hassle day or night. Stoneybatter is one of the most gentrified areas of the last decade, hard to see where you could even find trouble in those parts if you went looking for it

Marcusm

dotsman wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by the services being different in the IFSC between day and evening/weekend. They are the same. What "services" are you talking about?
Living in the IFSC doesn't restrict people to the IFSC. You are in the city centre. You can walk, cycle or jump on the luas (right outside you apartment) and have all the services the city has to offer in a matter of minutes.


Secondly, the gasworks is in Grand Canal Quay - it is the same location. Also, it's pretty much the same euro-for-euro rent-wise.

Baggot/Leeson street are, of course, also prime locations. They are the "traditional" in-demand city centre locations. And as you can see from the rental market, pretty much on a par with the IFSC/Silicon Docks etc from a price/demand perspective.

With regards Clarendan hall, not sure if we are talking about the apartment building or the location. In terms of the location, it is extremely desirable. In terms of the building, it's far from the best (and you describe as a shoe-box), but is far far bigger than the apartment in howth (almost twice as big), which is what this discussion, and my original point is all about.

Part of the issue here is that you have a fairly restricted view of what might be expected in terms of the environment.


IFSC - most of the retail, restaurants etc are daytime only or very limited weekend service. “Prime” would generally mean a wide availability of services and amenities on your doorstep available to you with minimum effort. This is not the case down the IFSC. It would be highly unusual, for example, for prime living accommodation to be located in a primarily commercial district (IFSC, Canary Wharf, Financial District in Manhattan, La Defense in Paris) except as Mon-Fri living.

I know Clarendon Hall well and looked at them when they were being built. They were tiny at that time even when expectations in Dublin were much lower. It is close to Stephen’s Green and some lovely restaurants. It’s on a shambles of a street, near to a decent number of homeless hotels (wet and dry). Also a significant amount of not horrendous but not great social housing. I feel fairly confident in saying that is not a secondary location, not to mind a prime location. How many beggars do I have to pass? Drunks on doorsteps, methadone zombie etc?

Ray Palmer

JohnnyChimpo wrote: »

This is the kind of thing you only get on Boards or the Journal... Smithfield is apparently Belgrade in the minds of some of the fragile posters here (?).

Just moved after living in Smithfield for 9 years and had absolutely zero hassle day or night. Stoneybatter is one of the most gentrified areas of the last decade, hard to see where you could even find trouble in those parts if you went looking for it

I have seen people attacked in Smithfield square more than once late at night. The square is one of the most desolate places at night and best avoided. Not saying it is like a warzone in any shape or form. It is somewhere that is not safe to walk around at night and I will stick with that from my own knowledge and experience.

tscul32

It would be a lovely 1 bed if you put the kitchen in bedroom 2 and knocked the wall between it and the living room, also the balcony would now be off this open room. Then bedroom 1 could absorb the current kitchen for a bigger room, maybe a desk for an office space. Could be lovely for a retiree.

Marcusm

tscul32 wrote: »

It would be a lovely 1 bed if you put the kitchen in bedroom 2 and knocked the wall between it and the living room, also the balcony would now be off this open room. Then bedroom 1 could absorb the current kitchen for a bigger room, maybe a desk for an office space. Could be lovely for a retiree.

That’s precisely what occurred to me. Separate kitchen suits an older person, extend living space etc. Perhaps one who passes on the nearby family home to the next generation (not my family story but seems to be for some people).

Alun

maxsmum wrote: »

That apartment block in Howth is manky looking, an eyesore with terrible maintenance evident from the outside. It's like a hotel out of a horror movie. And although the interior pics are good, we all know what the estate agent's lens does to reality! There are a lot of steps outside the front so it may not even be a good 1 bed for a retiree.

Yes, it doesn't look like it's been painted since it was built.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3877904,-6.0630565,3a,41.3y,170.98h,97.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smma2E3tYtujWoB3NGvjaTA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It wouldn't surprise me if those interior photos date back a good few years too.

EB_2013

maxsmum wrote: »

That apartment block in Howth is manky looking, an eyesore with terrible maintenance evident from the outside. It's like a hotel out of a horror movie. And although the interior pics are good, we all know what the estate agent's lens does to reality! There are a lot of steps outside the front so it may not even be a good 1 bed for a retiree.

Yes the roof looks like it could do with a clean or replacing. It makes the place look rundown from the photo. I'd be questioning where the management fees are being spent as there doesn't appear to be any underground, lifts, garden areas where a big chunk of money would be required. Maybe being right beside the sea requires more painting etc due to seawater.

Graham

Alun wrote: »

It wouldn't surprise me if those interior photos date back a good few years too.

On the plus side, one can of paint would see the entire apartment redecorated :pac:

dotsman

dotsman wrote: »

Students won't want to live there.
Young adults won't want to live there.
(the 2 main markets for apartments)

Most students and young adults are renting, not buying. Plus, the place isn't trying to have mass appeal, they only need one buyer, and I can guarantee you there's more than one person out there that would love that apartment.

That place would make a nice flat for someone, and it would be ideal as a holiday home that could be put out as an AirBnB when the owner doesn't need it. People in that market and with that kind of cash aren't usually students and young adults. I'd know people who grew up around those areas, whose parents are now rattling around big family homes in Sutton/Baldoyle/Bayside but doing most of their socialising in Howth, who'd be more than happy to buy that place if they had the money.

I'd also wonder if you've spent much time in Howth? It's just a completely different kettle of fish to the city centre, not the same market at all. There are plenty of people living there that literally never leave the town, do all their business in Howth and have all their friends and family there. There's a great sense of community and a laid back atmosphere that would convince you you weren't 30 mins outside D1.

That’s cheap - it will be snapped up within a couple of weeks

ted1

dotsman wrote: »

For the typical type of people who want to live in apartments (young professionals/students etc) they are. Very much so. For them, location is about convenience. Close to work, close to pubs/clubs, close to shops, close to friends, close to numerous public transport options (Dart, both luas lines, a range of bus routes as well as intercity transport links). It is why rent (a better gauge in terms of demand) is far higher in these locations.

So transient renters. High rents yet can be bought cheaper than the one in howth. Shows it’s not desirable for owner occupiers.
Smithfield is a dive full of junkies, and prostitution.
The IFSC is pretty soulless and a ghost town once offices are closed.

Many people want to live by the sea. It would suit someone living in their own or a couple downsizing from a big house in the area. As for the second bedroom I see that more as a home office , yoga room, art studio , living space. Etc

I lived in a 1 bed ,35 sq m apartment with the misses before for a number of years and it suited our needs perfectly. And the location was spot on, so good I can acryslky see the apartment from the house I bought many years later

Muahahaha

antimatterx wrote: »

You could actually argue that at that price the apartment is a bargain.

Pretty sure this same unit sold in 2010 with a 160k asking price at the time, from memory it had mouldy green carpets back then and needed the renovation it has now. That was the real bargain.

Even at 350k now it will sell, if it wasnt for the Covid mess it would be very attractive to an Airbnb operator as that view would command premium prices and guarantee very high levels of occupancy.

JimmyVik

Smouse156 wrote: »

Nothing to do with Dubai, just to point out that in an expensive city a standard 1-bed which is far cheaper than Dublin now is at least 60sqm. More to do with Rip-off Republic

Daily commute to Dubai would be a pain though.

JimmyVik

When I retire abroad, but keep a bolthole for when I come to Ireland. That place would be top of my list.

antimatterx

Muahahaha wrote: »

Pretty sure this same unit sold in 2010 with a 160k asking price at the time, from memory it had mouldy green carpets back then and needed the renovation it has now. That was the real bargain.

Even at 350k now it will sell, if it wasnt for the Covid mess it would be very attractive to an Airbnb operator as that view would command premium prices and guarantee very high levels of occupancy.

Every property in the country in 2010 was a bargain. The issue was the no one had any money.

dotsman

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Students couldn't afford to live there and I can assure you many would jump at it.
No idea why you say young people wouldn't want to live there. I have friends who rented apartments in Howth when younger. I have seen people living in much smaller places.

Yes I do expect a family with one child easily living there. I have seen people raise more children in a place marginally bigger and 4 adults lived there in the end..

Perfect for a single parent too.

Have you seen the size of the pensioner's accommodation dotted around the country? They are smaller and don't have any views. If you think that place is a prison cell then you have a strange view.

You seem to have a limited view if who lives in apartments that doesn't marry up with the reality of what happens. Not sure where you are located but I doubt you have seen who lives in apartments in Dublin and how many there are located all around Dublin outside the city. The main market is not students and young professionals and hasn't been for a long time

OK, it is clear that we have different views as to what we consider desirable, and that's fine. However, it is not about what I think, or about what you think - it is about what the market thinks (ie the sum of everybody's opinion).

When it comes to the buyer of this property, there are 2 types; someone who is buying it to live in, or someone looking to invest in it and rent it out.

For buying to live:

1. Students - don't buy properties.
2. Young professionals - typically looking to buy close to work/social scene etc. Traditionally, this was the "starter" home - somewhere were they would live in their late 20's into their thirties, before moving to a "family home" when the time comes. However, since the crash, most people are foregoing a starter home, and buying a family home.
3. Families - I'm sorry, while you may have seen people raise a child in an apartment that size, and even 4 adults, let's just say very very few people would consider that desirable. You can't even swing a cat, let alone store a buggy, pram, toys, diapers etc in this place.
4. Retirees - The idea of trading down is that a pensioner can sell a large home and move to a smaller home that still suits their needs releasing a tremendous amount of equity. Most pensioners would cry at the idea of living in a tiny (42 sqm) hovel in a decaying old rundown hotel. If it is beautiful views/country living they wanted, they could get far, far more for their money in far better locations further out in the countryside. But most of all, it is completely unsuitable for pensioners as it has a lot of steps, and is so tiny (and part of an apartment block) that they would not be able to make any adjustments if/when they need them (wheelchair access etc).

So, next we look at landlords. If purchasing as an investment, the number one consideration is rental yield. As pointed out, there are numerous properties going for the same sale price that would charge far, far higher rents (and thus, profits) for the landlord. The reason being that students/young professionals want to live there far more than they would want to live in this hovel. This property would be consider an horrific investment.

true-or-false wrote: »

Most students and young adults are renting, not buying. Plus, the place isn't trying to have mass appeal, they only need one buyer, and I can guarantee you there's more than one person out there that would love that apartment.

That place would make a nice flat for someone, and it would be ideal as a holiday home that could be put out as an AirBnB when the owner doesn't need it. People in that market and with that kind of cash aren't usually students and young adults. I'd know people who grew up around those areas, whose parents are now rattling around big family homes in Sutton/Baldoyle/Bayside but doing most of their socialising in Howth, who'd be more than happy to buy that place if they had the money.

I'd also wonder if you've spent much time in Howth? It's just a completely different kettle of fish to the city centre, not the same market at all. There are plenty of people living there that literally never leave the town, do all their business in Howth and have all their friends and family there. There's a great sense of community and a laid back atmosphere that would convince you you weren't 30 mins outside D1.

Exactly, it is a different market. As an investment, it pales hugely in comparison to other properties that have been pointed out.

As for pensioners, as per above, any pensioner who spent more than 5 minutes thinking about it would rule it out as it is completely unsuitable for them to see out the rest of their days.

Muahahaha

antimatterx wrote: »

Every property in the country in 2010 was a bargain. The issue was the no one had any money.

Not true, 50% of sales back then were for pure cash so it wrong to say no-one had money as lots of people picked up bargains around that time; Allsops were running hugely successful auctions for 200 properties a go where the vast majority of purchasers were cash buyers. What was missing back then was access to credit.

JimmyVik

antimatterx wrote: »

Every property in the country in 2010 was a bargain. The issue was the no one had any money.

Or did not want to risk buying at the time.
hindsight

ted1

dotsman wrote: »

OK, it is clear that we have different views as to what we consider desirable, and that's fine. However, it is not about what I think, or about what you think - it is about what the market thinks (ie the sum of everybody's opinion).

When it comes to the buyer of this property, there are 2 types; someone who is buying it to live in, or someone looking to invest in it and rent it out.

For buying to live:

1. Students - don't buy properties.
2. Young professionals - typically looking to buy close to work/social scene etc. Traditionally, this was the "starter" home - somewhere were they would live in their late 20's into their thirties, before moving to a "family home" when the time comes. However, since the crash, most people are foregoing a starter home, and buying a family home.
3. Families - I'm sorry, while you may have seen people raise a child in an apartment that size, and even 4 adults, let's just say very very few people would consider that desirable. You can't even swing a cat, let alone store a buggy, pram, toys, diapers etc in this place.
4. Retirees - The idea of trading down is that a pensioner can sell a large home and move to a smaller home that still suits their needs releasing a tremendous amount of equity. Most pensioners would cry at the idea of living in a tiny (42 sqm) hovel in a decaying old rundown hotel. If it is beautiful views/country living they wanted, they could get far, far more for their money in far better locations further out in the countryside. But most of all, it is completely unsuitable for pensioners as it has a lot of steps, and is so tiny (and part of an apartment block) that they would not be able to make any adjustments if/when they need them (wheelchair access etc).

So, next we look at landlords. If purchasing as an investment, the number one consideration is rental yield. As pointed out, there are numerous properties going for the same sale price that would charge far, far higher rents (and thus, profits) for the landlord. The reason being that students/young professionals want to live there far more than they would want to live in this hovel. This property would be consider an horrific investment.



Exactly, it is a different market. As an investment, it pales hugely in comparison to other properties that have been pointed out.

As for pensioners, as per above, any pensioner who spent more than 5 minutes thinking about it would rule it out as it is completely unsuitable for them to see out the rest of their days.

You left out a whole demographic, spinsters, widows , bachelors..


Or second homes. I know several foreign people who have small places like this in killiney and Dalkey that they use how spring/ summer weekends. This would also suit them

JohnnyChimpo

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I have seen people attacked in Smithfield square more than once late at night. The square is one of the most desolate places at night and best avoided. Not saying it is like a warzone in any shape or form. It is somewhere that is not safe to walk around at night and I will stick with that from my own knowledge and experience.

Sure I suppose we could trade anecdotes all day, but again I lived there for 9 years, and went to the Lighthouse Cinema at least twice a week, frequently coming out in the wee hours of the morning, or hanging out outside Oscars or the Generator having a drink. I have never seen a single bit of hassle there in all that time, and I think calling it rough is just delusional, or harkening back to what it might have been like 15 years ago when the area actually was kinda bogey and the horse markets brought all sorts of mayhem every few weeks.

If you polled Boards for "rough" areas you would never leave the house

Ush1

dotsman wrote: »

OK, it is clear that we have different views as to what we consider desirable, and that's fine. However, it is not about what I think, or about what you think - it is about what the market thinks (ie the sum of everybody's opinion).

When it comes to the buyer of this property, there are 2 types; someone who is buying it to live in, or someone looking to invest in it and rent it out.

For buying to live:

1. Students - don't buy properties.
2. Young professionals - typically looking to buy close to work/social scene etc. Traditionally, this was the "starter" home - somewhere were they would live in their late 20's into their thirties, before moving to a "family home" when the time comes. However, since the crash, most people are foregoing a starter home, and buying a family home.
3. Families - I'm sorry, while you may have seen people raise a child in an apartment that size, and even 4 adults, let's just say very very few people would consider that desirable. You can't even swing a cat, let alone store a buggy, pram, toys, diapers etc in this place.
4. Retirees - The idea of trading down is that a pensioner can sell a large home and move to a smaller home that still suits their needs releasing a tremendous amount of equity. Most pensioners would cry at the idea of living in a tiny (42 sqm) hovel in a decaying old rundown hotel. If it is beautiful views/country living they wanted, they could get far, far more for their money in far better locations further out in the countryside. But most of all, it is completely unsuitable for pensioners as it has a lot of steps, and is so tiny (and part of an apartment block) that they would not be able to make any adjustments if/when they need them (wheelchair access etc).

So, next we look at landlords. If purchasing as an investment, the number one consideration is rental yield. As pointed out, there are numerous properties going for the same sale price that would charge far, far higher rents (and thus, profits) for the landlord. The reason being that students/young professionals want to live there far more than they would want to live in this hovel. This property would be consider an horrific investment.



Exactly, it is a different market. As an investment, it pales hugely in comparison to other properties that have been pointed out.

As for pensioners, as per above, any pensioner who spent more than 5 minutes thinking about it would rule it out as it is completely unsuitable for them to see out the rest of their days.

You opened with it doesn't matter with what I think, it matters what the market thinks and then went on to air your own thoughts?

guyfawkes5

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I have seen people attacked in Smithfield square more than once late at night. The square is one of the most desolate places at night and best avoided. Not saying it is like a warzone in any shape or form. It is somewhere that is not safe to walk around at night and I will stick with that from my own knowledge and experience.

I lived in Smithfield on that square from about 2016 to 2019.

I would disagree with generally saying the square is not safe at night. It definitely has an 'element' that passes through it, but I wouldn't say it's really something to realistically fear. As a barometer, I've seen junkies get sick on the square more than a few times but never felt in any danger at any point.

Ray Palmer

dotsman wrote: »

OK, it is clear that we have different views as to what we consider desirable, and that's fine. However, it is not about what I think, or about what you think - it is about what the market thinks (ie the sum of everybody's opinion).

Therein lies your problem. You are talking in absolutes and stating what the market wants. You seem to acknowledge slightly that you understand it is quantity of demand but not grasping the full meaning.

People have explained to you scenarios they can see and you are dismissing them all. I don't disagree with your points but again you are stating absolutes. Telling me things are a particular way that I know are not true.

Look up the property price register and see the price is right compared to sales in the same block. So even by the basic premise you gave for the price you are wrong. That is certainly the market price and as you said your opinion doesn't matter. My opinion on the other hand seems proven.

You are also telling us who uses apartments and you are wrong. Many families are being raised in apartments and already have been. I take it you aren't in Dublin because you can't not see.

So telling us your view of why it wouldn't work in your opinion for so many people has no point as your opinion is not that of the buyer. You seem to lack empathetic understanding