Overpriced ShoeBoxes

dotsman

ec18 wrote: »

I lived down there and you aren't in the city centre. realistically if you are past bus aras the luas could be every twenty mins at night and evening, not terrible by any means but the it's not a matter of minutes to the city centre, twenty - thirty minute walk and potentially the same on the luas if you miss one.

While true the gasworks is that little bit closer to the aviva and the selection of pubs and restaurants around there than then quay area. Admittedly it's probably maybe a ten minute walk difference but it's a difference, personally I'd rather live at the gasworks then around the bord gais theatre

As per the luas website, the average for evenings/weekends is circa 10 minutes.

As for walking, while it depends on what part of the IFSC you are talking about (these days, some people consider all the way as far as the point to be the IFSC, and estate agents love listing apartments nowhere near the IFSC as "the IFSC"), but for the apartments I listed, they would all be circa 10 minutes to the spire, 20 minutes to Grafton street. So, the choice really is a frequent luas, a quick and cheap taxi, a very quick cycle or a short walk.

With regards Grand Canal Docks, while you might prefer the Gasworks (legitimately) to the Gallery Quay, the fact that the rents are pretty much the same, would indicate that, on average, people in general regard them as equally desirable.

Marcusm wrote: »

Part of the issue here is that you have a fairly restricted view of what might be expected in terms of the environment.


IFSC - most of the retail, restaurants etc are daytime only or very limited weekend service. “Prime” would generally mean a wide availability of services and amenities on your doorstep available to you with minimum effort. This is not the case down the IFSC. It would be highly unusual, for example, for prime living accommodation to be located in a primarily commercial district (IFSC, Canary Wharf, Financial District in Manhattan, La Defense in Paris) except as Mon-Fri living.

You do realise that the shops, restaurants, bars etc in the IFSC are open throughout the evening and into the weekend as well, with Sunday being the only day that some are closed. That is pretty much the same everywhere including Baggot/Leeson Street. I can't think of a single amenity that Baggot/Leeson Street would have that the IFSC doesn't. Except, in the IFSC, you have a Luas on your doorstep to quickly transport you to other parts of the city. And a dart right next to you. And lots of bus routes. And trains and buses going all over the county/country. From a "services" perspective, the IFSC would easily be number one in Dublin city.

There is also the fact that, between the Point and Georges Dock festivals, there would be regular events on the typical person's social calendar, and a great buzz around on certain weekends (admittedly, DCC are shutting down Georges dock so they can burn millions of taxpayers money on a BS water park, but that's a discussion for another thread).

Marcusm wrote: »

I know Clarendon Hall well and looked at them when they were being built. They were tiny at that time even when expectations in Dublin were much lower. It is close to Stephen’s Green and some lovely restaurants. It’s on a shambles of a street, near to a decent number of homeless hotels (wet and dry). Also a significant amount of not horrendous but not great social housing. I feel fairly confident in saying that is not a secondary location, not to mind a prime location. How many beggars do I have to pass? Drunks on doorsteps, methadone zombie etc?

As tiny as they may be, they are almost twice the size of the Howth apartment!!!

While you may view living near Baggot/Leeson street to be more desirable due to there being less drunks/beggars etc, and I would be with you on that, there are many who would prefer it due to being right bang in the centre. Thus, we see the similar rents.

Ultimately, I have lived, worked and socialised in all these places over the years (with the exception of not living near Clarendon hall), and have friends who have in the past and currently live in all these locations and can tell you that they are all prime locations.

There are only 2 reason to think Baggot/Leeson street is in a different league

• Proximity to council flats - Baggot/Leeson street area is probably the only place in the entire of Dublin city where you are not bordering a council area, thus there is a lower number of drunks/junkies/beggars/undesirables etc walking the streets (but there's still a few!). Hopefully, as the years go by, Dublin City Council might try to do something about the property crisis and continue to expand the IFSC/Silicon Docks, thus reducing this problem in those areas.
• Tradition - Up until the 90's, the Baggot/Leeson Street area was the place to be for those working in finance/law. With the 3 main bank HQs in proximity and lot of law and insurance firms, it was the number one sweetspot. And that view still lingers on (especially in older people). Similary, the whole even/odd number postcode. However, since then, with the creation of the IFSC and Silicon docks, not only have a lot of Finance and legal jobs moved to the Docklands, but the countless tech jobs in the area has seen the entire Docklands become just as popular/prime.

Ush1

When people meet up in town for a night on the lash, they aren't going to the IFSC or Smithfield.

Ray Palmer

JohnnyChimpo wrote: »

Sure I suppose we could trade anecdotes all day, but again I lived there for 9 years, and went to the Lighthouse Cinema at least twice a week, frequently coming out in the wee hours of the morning, or hanging out outside Oscars or the Generator having a drink. I have never seen a single bit of hassle there in all that time, and I think calling it rough is just delusional, or harkening back to what it might have been like 15 years ago when the area actually was kinda bogey and the horse markets brought all sorts of mayhem every few weeks.

If you polled Boards for "rough" areas you would never leave the house

Your issue is with boards not me. Smithfield has changed but I know Dublin very well. I don't see syringes on my street and junkies hanging around. I continue to see this in Smithfield when I go through it when going and coming back to work. I lived in North Strand with no hassle still knew it was rough and would not pretend otherwise.

Marcusm

Dotsman,

I don’t want to quote your post and I can understand your point of view. What you fail to appreciate is that these can’t all be “prime” locations as by dint of the meaning of the word, it is restricted to a very small proportion of the locations and/or properties in a city. It’s not a legally defined term but, apart from cities such as a London, New York etc which might have super prime or hyper prime property locations, “prime” as a term is generally reserved for maybe 10-15% (if even that) of a city’s offerings. With respect, none of the IFSC nor Aungier St properties are ever getting to that level. Instances may exist where individual properties may be beyond the norm for the locale (e.g. I lived for. 10 years in a 1600 sq ft glass and steel apartment perched on top of a factory conversion in cool Bermondsey in London but that was not a “prime” property) but the overall package (and location will always account for 70% of it) is what counts.

It’s probably a deviation from the main thread and it’s not necessary to get into a discussion about prime, secondary, tertiary etc to comment on the relative merits of that Howth apartment, but there’s no point in trying to argue that any of those properties fall into a category reserved for the most desirable properties.

Ray Palmer

dotsman wrote: »

As per the luas website, the average for evenings/weekends is circa 10 minutes.

As for walking, while it depends on what part of the IFSC you are talking about (these days, some people consider all the way as far as the point to be the IFSC, and estate agents love listing apartments nowhere near the IFSC as "the IFSC"), but for the apartments I listed, they would all be circa 10 minutes to the spire, 20 minutes to Grafton street. So, the choice really is a frequent luas, a quick and cheap taxi, a very quick cycle or a short walk.

With regards Grand Canal Docks, while you might prefer the Gasworks (legitimately) to the Gallery Quay, the fact that the rents are pretty much the same, would indicate that, on average, people in general regard them as equally desirable.


You do realise that the shops, restaurants, bars etc in the IFSC are open throughout the evening and into the weekend as well, with Sunday being the only day that some are closed. ]

You do realise we have been there and have seen what it is like at the weekends and late at night? What you are describing isn't true. Worked there for 4 years everyday of the week and different times of the day. It is a ghost town more often than not. Friends hated living there. And is a trek along the quays or Talbot street which aren't great at night.

dotsman

Ush1 wrote: »

You opened with it doesn't matter with what I think, it matters what the market thinks and then went on to air your own thoughts?

Actually, I opened with "it doesn't matter what I think"

What I stated are not necessarily my "thoughts", but the basics of the property market. As a matter of interest, do you dispute any of the points? Do you at least agree that it is a terrible investment?

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Therein lies your problem. You are talking in absolutes and stating what the market wants. You seem to acknowledge slightly that you understand it is quantity of demand but not grasping the full meaning.

People have explained to you scenarios they can see and you are dismissing them all. I don't disagree with your points but again you are stating absolutes. Telling me things are a particular way that I know are not true.

Look up the property price register and see the price is right compared to sales in the same block. So even by the basic premise you gave for the price you are wrong. That is certainly the market price and as you said your opinion doesn't matter. My opinion on the other hand seems proven.

You are also telling us who uses apartments and you are wrong. Many families are being raised in apartments and already have been. I take it you aren't in Dublin because you can't not see.

So telling us your view of why it wouldn't work in your opinion for so many people has no point as your opinion is not that of the buyer. You seem to lack empathetic understanding

But you are either misreading what I am saying or putting words in my mouth. I never said that "families don't live in apartments". I am saying, generally, families don't desire to live in 42 sqm hovels, and they sure as hell don't choose to spend €350,000 of their money on the same.
Nor do I think that some retirees don't trade down and live in apartments. I am trying to explain why this particular apartment would not be one that is likely to attract this particular market segment.

Ultimately, when trying to determine if something is over/under-priced, it is always a good idea to look at the rental yield as an indicator of value. What sort of rent do you think this apartment would command? It's hard to put an exact price as there are no apartments in that complex currently advertised for rent, but do you honestly think it would get 2,000 per month or anything even close to that? Given that this apartment, at 2.5 times the size, also in howth is going for 2,200, I would think not (not even close to 2,000!). And if not, then it is a bad investment. And if it is a bad investment, then it is overpriced.

Are there exceptions to the rules? Always! I'm simply trying to help people understand why this particular property is greatly overpriced for what it offers.

Marcusm

The thing is some properties are simply sui generis and not susceptible of being compared with other properties on a rental yield basis. It’s like when average family semis in Sandymount we’re going for €4m and had a rental yield way below 0.5%. That apartment will only get that price if a particular purchaser wants that view and location and is willing to focus on the interior of their home and ignore the shortcomings of the relatively small block.

Not everything can be subject to a standardised analysis.

Ray Palmer

dotsman wrote: »

Actually, I opened with "it doesn't matter what I think"

What I stated are not necessarily my "thoughts", but the basics of the property market. As a matter of interest, do you dispute any of the points? Do you at least agree that it is a terrible investment?



But you are either misreading what I am saying or putting words in my mouth. I never said that "families don't live in apartments". I am saying, generally, families don't desire to live in 42 sqm hovels, and they sure as hell don't choose to spend €350,000 of their money on the same.
Nor do I think that some retirees don't trade down and live in apartments. I am trying to explain why this particular apartment would not be one that is likely to attract this particular market segment.

Ultimately, when trying to determine if something is over/under-priced, it is always a good idea to look at the rental yield as an indicator of value. What sort of rent do you think this apartment would command? It's hard to put an exact price as there are no apartments in that complex currently advertised for rent, but do you honestly think it would get 2,000 per month or anything even close to that? Given that this apartment, at 2.5 times the size, also in howth is going for 2,200, I would think not (not even close to 2,000!). And if not, then it is a bad investment. And if it is a bad investment, then it is overpriced.

Are there exceptions to the rules? Always! I'm simply trying to help people understand why this particular property is greatly overpriced for what it offers.

No you gave absolutes "Familes won't want to live there" people said they would and you argued and remain arguing why you think it is a bad idea. You are also changing what you said.

You are wrong and dismissive. The price is market rate so none of your objections and views matter or it would be priced less as you stated.

I always wondered about those Asgard apartments, i always assumed it was some sort of lodge or hotel that was converted to apartments. Was it built as an apartment development originally?

Pretty poor looking development on a nice piece of coastline. There seems to always be one for sale.

JimmyVik

dotsman wrote: »

Actually, I opened with "it doesn't matter what I think"

What I stated are not necessarily my "thoughts", but the basics of the property market. As a matter of interest, do you dispute any of the points? Do you at least agree that it is a terrible investment?



But you are either misreading what I am saying or putting words in my mouth. I never said that "families don't live in apartments". I am saying, generally, families don't desire to live in 42 sqm hovels, and they sure as hell don't choose to spend €350,000 of their money on the same.
Nor do I think that some retirees don't trade down and live in apartments. I am trying to explain why this particular apartment would not be one that is likely to attract this particular market segment.

Ultimately, when trying to determine if something is over/under-priced, it is always a good idea to look at the rental yield as an indicator of value. What sort of rent do you think this apartment would command? It's hard to put an exact price as there are no apartments in that complex currently advertised for rent, but do you honestly think it would get 2,000 per month or anything even close to that? Given that this apartment, at 2.5 times the size, also in howth is going for 2,200, I would think not (not even close to 2,000!). And if not, then it is a bad investment. And if it is a bad investment, then it is overpriced.

Are there exceptions to the rules? Always! I'm simply trying to help people understand why this particular property is greatly overpriced for what it offers.

If I had €350k burning a hole in my pocket, I think id rather buy that one than one in Smithfield or the IFSC. If I got the one you linked for €350k id buy that one. Whats the asking price on that?

Graham

There's a 2 bed in Howth Lodge on the market now for €520k

Cracking apartments, great location, 10 minutes walk into Howth along the beach.

whippet

Smouse156 wrote: »

Nothing to do with Dubai, just to point out that in an expensive city a standard 1-bed which is far cheaper than Dublin now is at least 60sqm. More to do with Rip-off Republic

In Ireland there are unions and union rates to pay the builders of these apartments in Dubai ..... they just .... sort of .. import cheap labours .. hold on to passports .. and you know ... apples and oranges etc

EB_2013

cisk wrote: »

I always wondered about those Asgard apartments, i always assumed it was some sort of lodge or hotel that was converted to apartments. Was it built as an apartment development originally?

Pretty poor looking development on a nice piece of coastline. There seems to always be one for sale.

It originally a hotel that went on fire and suffered damage. There's a photo here of it here being demolished in 1982.

https://m.facebook.com/oldhowth/photos/demolition-of-the-asgard-hotel-howth-1982-the-hotel-had-suffered-some-serious-fi/10153384432534776/

tricky D

That place has loads of issues.

The bottom half of the building is the old hotel and the upper floors were built around the 80s. Can't recall the exact details from former residents, but I would get a structural engineer to inspect very carefully (*see below).

It will be expensive to heat. Any decent cold wind, especially from the north or east, will tear the heat out of it.

In severe wind, the waves can come crashing to the whole height.

There will be some sort of development going on across the road. The current proposals under SHD legislation mean the Edros site will be rammed to the gills with shoeboxes. The last granted planning was conceded in the High Court and the issue is ongoing. *Part of the plan is to remove loads of material and drive in retaining piles just south of the Martello tower which will produce lots of vibration hence the need for good engineer's inspection.

If SHD gets thrown out, there will still be significant development.

The exterior photos are recent.

Plenty of semi-retired and young couples in there atm. Demand will be fine.

I'd guess the view premium is around 80k over ~270k for 42m2. A very roughly equivalent with no view but larger, 65m2 2-bed in Howth is around the 300/350k mark.

Smouse156

Ray Palmer wrote: »

No you gave absolutes "Familes won't want to live there" people said they would and you argued and remain arguing why you think it is a bad idea. You are also changing what you said.

You are wrong and dismissive. The price is market rate so none of your objections and views matter or it would be priced less as you stated.

What it sells for is the market rate! Asking prices are not the market rate! An non-investible shoebox hovel is not going to get anywhere near €350k in this market! It suits hardly anybody due to its poor layout. If it had been a 42sqm 1-bed with a better floor plan it would achieve a higher price that what it will sell for in its current state

Smouse156

whippet wrote: »

In Ireland there are unions and union rates to pay the builders of these apartments in Dubai ..... they just .... sort of .. import cheap labours .. hold on to passports .. and you know ... apples and oranges etc

Guys Irish property is overpriced due to Brickie Developers paying way too much for land and government policy prioritising vested interests! Land, essentially useless land is inflated by public spending (roads, parks, train lines, facilities). The landowner contributes nothing to society bar those that use it for farming. Dubai has many shortfalls but at least their government takes proper care of their people and puts the interest of their own people ahead of the interests of foreign vulture landlords that look to gouge the Irish people for every cent they’ve got!

Graham

Smouse156 wrote: »

What it sells for is the market rate! Asking prices are not the market rate! An non-investible shoebox hovel is not going to get anywhere near €350k in this market!

I'm guessing you won't be putting in an offer then?

To each their own.

Personally I'd be surprised if it didn't sell somewhere around the asking price and that's just based on my own opinion and several other posters who can see the appeal.

Of course if the market tanks due to Covid, all bets are off.

Ray Palmer

Smouse156 wrote: »

What it sells for is the market rate! Asking prices are not the market rate! An non-investible shoebox hovel is not going to get anywhere near €350k in this market! It suits hardly anybody due to its poor layout. If it had been a 42sqm 1-bed with a better floor plan it would achieve a higher price that what it will sell for in its current state

Did you look at the price register? It is obviously in the right bracket no matter what you say.

Calling it a hovel and saying the layout is wrong is not just an opinion but exaggeration. It is not a hovel. I already explained how they layout would suit people. I really appreciate having a separate office at home as would many especially now.

Why you are so angry about differing views where you are clearly proven wrong is very strange.

brisan

antimatterx wrote: »

You're paying to live in Howth, one of the most desired areas in Dublin. Top quality location.

How much do you expect to pay?

https://www.daft.ie/dublin/apartments-for-sale/howth/?s%5Bmxp%5D=350000

brisan

true-or-false wrote: »

Most students and young adults are renting, not buying. Plus, the place isn't trying to have mass appeal, they only need one buyer, and I can guarantee you there's more than one person out there that would love that apartment.

That place would make a nice flat for someone, and it would be ideal as a holiday home that could be put out as an AirBnB when the owner doesn't need it. People in that market and with that kind of cash aren't usually students and young adults. I'd know people who grew up around those areas, whose parents are now rattling around big family homes in Sutton/Baldoyle/Bayside but doing most of their socialising in Howth, who'd be more than happy to buy that place if they had the money.

I'd also wonder if you've spent much time in Howth? It's just a completely different kettle of fish to the city centre, not the same market at all. There are plenty of people living there that literally never leave the town, do all their business in Howth and have all their friends and family there. There's a great sense of community and a laid back atmosphere that would convince you you weren't 30 mins outside D1.

Well its been on the market for a few months now and no one has come forward to buy it

fret_wimp2

Its an irish property with some redeeming features and some not so redeeming features.

Those who value those features will see it as being a reasonable price, those that value other features will see it as a ripoff. There is no definite, quantifiable scale that says what feature of a house is worth more.

Right person with the right needs comes along, this place will get bought, regardless of who thinks its too small or ugly.
Thats how property works everywhere.

I really dont have an opinion of if its good value or not as its all relative.

Dont like it, simply move on, dont get angry about it, cant change it and weather it sells or not wont really have an effect on you anyway.

JimmyVik

brisan wrote: »

Well its been on the market for a few months now and no one has come forward to buy it

People have had other concerns the last few months. That may change soon.

Smouse156

Still for sale, no doubt will be for a long time to come at that price