What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Mr. Karate

Gervais08 wrote: »

Excellent article today in the Examiner about a Sikh family who live in Direct Provision- they have made such a good life here with their chance, kids doing well - and now handing out free masks to their local community.

I’d take hundreds more of these into the country!

Sikh's are decent, hard working people. Plus they're on our side when it comes to Islam.

Tombo2001

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Sikh's are decent, hard working people. Plus they're on our side when it comes to Islam.

Who is 'us'?

Geuze

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

They are good people

No problem with them coming here

They may be lovely people.

But if they are illegal immigrants, they are not welcome.

Geuze

J_M_G wrote: »

I agree that they are generally good people. I'd take them over many other groups any day.

Here's a question for you though. How many are you ok with coming here?

How much are you willing to dilute down the native population?

What's the percentage?

We need to start explicitly defining this line, because if we don't, we're going to wake up in less than 50 years as a minority in our own homeland if current trends continue, and there's no reason to think they won't.

Here's my policy:

(1) strongly discourage Irish emigration by making sure plenty of jobs here
(2) EU migration welcome, if tens of thousands of central Europeans arrive, so be it
(3) severe restrictions on non-EU migration

(4) the 6,900 refugees to be accepted under the current two programmes seems ok to me

(5) asylum claims to be processed at airport within 7 days

Gervais08

Geuze wrote: »

Here's my policy:

(1) strongly discourage Irish emigration by making sure plenty of jobs here
(2) EU migration welcome, if tens of thousands of central Europeans arrive, so be it
(3) severe restrictions on non-EU migration

(4) the 6,900 refugees to be accepted under the current two programmes seems ok to me

(5) asylum claims to be processed at airport within 7 days

Add sone sort of Australian points/sponsor etc scheme and 100% yep!

gormdubhgorm

It has good aspects and bad aspects.

Some such as Nigerian born Ola Majekodunmi end up more Irish than any native Irish themselves.

http://www.raidionalife.ie/en/presenters/ola-majekodunmi-2/

Many highly educated migrants have carved out successful lives in Ireland Dr Abdullahi El-Tom from Sudan for example.

https://www.maynoothuniversity.ie/anthropology/news/dr-abdullahi-el-tom-wins-recognition-award-outstanding-map-academic-advisor

Dr Abdullahi lectures in Anthropology in Maynooth University agus Tá Gaeilge aige freisin!

Some educated immigrants such as Ashok Varadkar (Father of former Taoiseach Leo) moved to Ireland to work as a Doctor. They settle extremely well in Ireland and thier foreign background is of no hinderance to success. Of ether themseleves or thier family.

However, others end up in ghetto type estates, fighting with the working class native Irish.
I find it is normally the working class who are most threatened by immigrants. As many will start from the bottom up and are willing to work harder than the native Irish. This is where the tensions arise. An excuse to attack 'other'.

The main stumbling block of multiculturalism is not race, but lower socio-economic backgrounds and ignorance.

Cordell

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Who is 'us'?

Us the people that don't need a waiver from the church to get the flu vaccine: https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/pubinfo/flu-vaccination/about-the-vaccine/

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It has good aspects and bad aspects.

Some such as Nigerian born Ola Majekodunmi end up more Irish than any native Irish themselves.

You'll always be able to pick out individuals who have integrated well. That's part of the problem TBH. Plucking out individuals to suggest that the remainder will do the same.

Many highly educated migrants have carved out successful lives in Ireland Dr Abdullahi El-Tom from Sudan for example.

Some educated immigrants such as Ashok Varadkar (Father of former Taoiseach Leo) moved to Ireland to work as a Doctor. They settle extremely well in Ireland and thier foreign background is of no hinderance to success. Of ether themseleves or thier family.

It's been said endless times that posters here have no issue with educated people who can live independently in Ireland.

However, others end up in ghetto type estates, fighting with the working class native Irish.
I find it is normally the working class who are most threatened by immigrants. As many will start from the bottom up and are willing to work harder than the native Irish. This is where the tensions arise. An excuse to attack 'other'.

Except that the Irish work ethic is often considered better than other countries, and that includes the working class. The issue for the working class is availability of jobs which tend to be of less quantity than others due to the manner of the work. The working class are threatened not by migrants working harder, but by a limited amount of jobs being taken by others.

There's also the aspect that migrants (without education/skills) require so much in financial support, which cuts into what's available for Irish people on, or near the bottom. The Middle class can make enough to get by without State support but a large percentage of working class need supplementary income from the State to meet their needs. A growing migrant class, takes away funding which would be available to them.

The main stumbling block of multiculturalism is not race, but lower socio-economic backgrounds and ignorance.

The stumbling block was never about race. That's just a ploy to shout racism. Culture is, of a far, greater concern that race could ever be... but it's just easier to shout racism when objections are raised.

The stumbling block is the lack of education/skills along with personal financing to support themselves. As we've said many times, a large percentage of migrants coming into Ireland are lacking the education/skills to gainfully support themselves when they arrive. They might have 3rd level education from their own country (which isn't that common either), but the quality of that education won't be up to the same standard as Europe. They're likely lacking in language skills too, which prevents them from working effectively, unless employers are willing to have employees stumbling over English while they work.

You're right there's a socio-economic problem. Migrants, typically, end up on the lowest rung of society, just above our weakest members of society... because they can't afford to be any higher without State assistance. Which draws resources away from Irish people's needs to provide for people who probably won't be productive for at least 3-5 years, all the while needing support. Ireland being an expensive country to live in, guarantees that these migrants will struggle, because they don't have the advanced education or language to do better..

As for ignorance... I see it differently than you. I see the ignorance that has been generated by the State, the media, or NGO's to misrepresent migrants and their effects on the country. I see this ignorant attempt to guilt Irish people into accepting peoples who need far more than they should be given, in large numbers... if this was only about a few dozen people a year, I wouldn't have an issue, but we're talking about hundreds every year, with that number likely increasing to thousands each year... and that's arrivals. Ireland still needs to provide for the thousands who need years to be educated/skilled up, so that they can provide for themselves (which I've seen little evidence that's even happening)...

Take English for example. I've taught English in Asia at all levels. It's not what I'm doing now, but I can remember what it's like. It takes time, even while being in an English speaking country to gain a working use of the language... and that's the language for day-to-day usage. For professional/office work, a whole load of technical language and cultural absorption is needed... and that takes years.. with the best students. Most migrants arrive in Ireland with broken English.. I've done volunteer community driven workshops in the Midlands teaching migrants and Travellers English... the levels on arrival are not good. This being a focus on speaking rather than getting stuck into writing.

Migrants, of the types, we're getting are simply not prepared to live independently in a English speaking First world nation.

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

You'll always be able to pick out individuals who have integrated well. That's part of the problem TBH. Plucking out individuals to suggest that the remainder will do the same.

Take English for example. I've taught English in Asia at all levels. It's not what I'm doing now, but I can remember what it's like. It takes time, even while being in an English speaking country to gain a working use of the language... and that's the language for day-to-day usage. For professional/office work, a whole load of technical language and cultural absorption is needed... and that takes years.. with the best students. Most migrants arrive in Ireland with broken English.. I've done volunteer community driven workshops in the Midlands teaching migrants and Travellers English... the levels on arrival are not good. This being a focus on speaking rather than getting stuck into writing.

Migrants, of the types, we're getting are simply not prepared to live independently in a English speaking First world nation.

Your post sounded good until the very end 'migrants of the types we're getting'. There is always those who are genuine asylum seekers and double checked by the refugee documentation centre

https://www.legalaidboard.ie/en/lawyers-and-experts/research-information/refugee-documentation-centre-services/

But there are always going to be some who slip through the cracks, admittedly. On the other side of things there are plenty of migrants who are over qualified with degrees and so on. Plus they cannot get jobs in Ireland except Security Guards and the like. Despite being fluent in English.

Of course there are going to be others from the lower rung of the ladder with little or no English.
Should fluent English and be degree educated be a prerequisite on entry to Ireland?

I find the whole tone of the 100% anti migrant side ironic considering only 150 years ago. Irish people fled famine and persecution (many with no English) and had to suffer the same 'we don't like your types around here' vibes. It was not Ireland's best and brightest who went on the boat to England/USA as maids and labourers, for example.

I still firmly believe it is a native working class Irish issue. As any migrants who work harder than them will easily overtake them. And in a generation or so will have overtaken them in social status. That is the real fear when it comes down to it. As there are many working class Irish who have generations that are dependant on social welfare, and have few in thier family that even thought about going to 3rd level.

I think hard luck, that is the way of the world. However, they do not see it like that. It is some else's fault not theirs.

And all it will take is one eloquent "Irish Enoch Powell" to ignite the working class resentment at the right time and there will be an explosion.

It is not the migrants that is the issue but the lazy element of the native Irish working class. They can easily be whipped up into a frenzy if someone else is found to blame for thier problems.

TomTomTim

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Your post sounded good until the very end 'migrants of the types we're getting'. There is always those who are genuine asylum seekers and double checked by the refugee documentation centre

https://www.legalaidboard.ie/en/lawyers-and-experts/research-information/refugee-documentation-centre-services/

But there are always going to be some who slip through the cracks, admittedly. On the other side of things there are plenty of migrants who are over qualified with degrees and so on. Plus they cannot get jobs in Ireland except Security Guards and the like. Despite being fluent in English.

Of course there are going to be others from the lower rung of the ladder with little or no English.
Should fluent English and be degree educated be a prerequisite on entry to Ireland?

I find the whole tone of the 100% anti migrant side ironic considering only 150 years ago. Irish people fled famine and persecution (many with no English) and had to suffer the same 'we don't like your types around here' vibes. It was not Ireland's best and brightest who went on the boat to England/USA as maids and labourers, for example.

I still firmly believe it is a native working class Irish issue. As any migrants who work harder than them will easily overtake them. And in a generation or so will have overtaken them in social status. That is the real fear when it comes down to it. As there are many working class Irish who have generations that are dependant on social welfare, and have few in thier family that even thought about going to 3rd level.

I think hard luck, that is the way of the world. However, they do not see it like that. It is some else's fault not theirs.

And all it will take is one eloquent "Irish Enoch Powell" to ignite the working class resentment at the right time and there will be an explosion.

It is not the migrants that is the issue but the lazy element of the native Irish working class. They can easily be whipped up into a frenzy if someone else is found to blame for thier problems.

The first bold bit has been dealt with on these threads possibly hundreds of times by now. What's the point in people typing the same thing again, when you people just ignore it? The second bit really shows your mindset. It's the typical, immigrants great, native Irish bad, mindset that is so common with you types.

Mr. Karate

Geuze wrote: »

Here's my policy:

(1) strongly discourage Irish emigration by making sure plenty of jobs here
(2) EU migration welcome, if tens of thousands of central Europeans arrive, so be it
(3) severe restrictions on non-EU migration

(4) the 6,900 refugees to be accepted under the current two programmes seems ok to me

(5) asylum claims to be processed at airport within 7 days

I'd have those refugees vetted first to make sure they have the skills to support themselves. Otherwise back they go.

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Your post sounded good until the very end 'migrants of the types we're getting'.

That's nice but I've read your response, and you didn't address it. So.. what's wrong with what I said?

There is always those who are genuine asylum seekers and double checked by the refugee documentation centre

https://www.legalaidboard.ie/en/lawyers-and-experts/research-information/refugee-documentation-centre-services/

But there are always going to be some who slip through the cracks, admittedly. On the other side of things there are plenty of migrants who are over qualified with degrees and so on. Plus they cannot get jobs in Ireland except Security Guards and the like. Despite being fluent in English.

Which doesn't counter what I said. The link is useless. Thought you were going to provide me with a report or article, but it's just a general information page.

Of course there are going to be others from the lower rung of the ladder with little or no English. Should fluent English and be degree educated be a prerequisite on entry to Ireland?

Yes, it should. For all migrants who are not under direct physical threat and fleeing for their lives. Which is what Asylum was intended to be. All others should have the capability to support themselves while in Ireland. We can provide basic support to get them started but supporting them while they learn English, before they even get to start a formal education?

How long do you believe the State should be supporting migrants? 5 years? 20 years? forever?

I find the whole tone of the 100% anti migrant side ironic considering only 150 years ago. Irish people fled famine and persecution (many with no English) and had to suffer the same 'we don't like your types around here' vibes. It was not Ireland's best and brightest who went on the boat to England/USA as maids and labourers, for example.

Whereas I find yours to be far more ironic since it's been said multiple times within the last few pages that most here aren't 100% against immigration. The irony is that it doesn't matter what we write or say about migration, you'll repost your opinions regardless of what has actually been said.

As for the Irish migrations... it's been done to death, and I'm not repeating it again. Read back... it won't take long to find all the arguments against it.. which BTW haven't been countered. You could seek to counter the arguments made by Wibbs and others about the comparisons with Irish Diaspora.

I still firmly believe it is a native working class Irish issue. As any migrants who work harder than them will easily overtake them. And in a generation or so will have overtaken them in social status. That is the real fear when it comes down to it. As there are many working class Irish who have generations that are dependant on social welfare, and have few in thier family that even thought about going to 3rd level.

I think hard luck, that is the way of the world. However, they do not see it like that. It is some else's fault not theirs.

And all it will take is one eloquent "Irish Enoch Powell" to ignite the working class resentment at the right time and there will be an explosion.

It is not the migrants that is the issue but the lazy element of the native Irish working class. They can easily be whipped up into a frenzy if someone else is found to blame for thier problems.

Okie dokie. You said I had good points but then ignored what I said, just to repeat your own belief. Fine..

Sand

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I still firmly believe it is a native working class Irish issue. As any migrants who work harder than them will easily overtake them. And in a generation or so will have overtaken them in social status. That is the real fear when it comes down to it. As there are many working class Irish who have generations that are dependant on social welfare, and have few in thier family that even thought about going to 3rd level.

I think hard luck, that is the way of the world. However, they do not see it like that. It is some else's fault not theirs.

And all it will take is one eloquent "Irish Enoch Powell" to ignite the working class resentment at the right time and there will be an explosion.

It is not the migrants that is the issue but the lazy element of the native Irish working class. They can easily be whipped up into a frenzy if someone else is found to blame for thier problems.

I think its telling that you consider concerns over mass migration to be an issue for people who are easily outworked, will be overtaken in social status, dependent, uneducated, lazy, fearful, easily manipulated and eager to blame others for their problems. A low status issue for low status people who should be cast aside if they cant compete, right?

It seems to me then that your convictions around this issue have more to do with trying to portray yourself as high status. You're not concerned about competing with the rest of the world, because you're none of the above right?

Which completely misses addressing why must Irish people compete tooth and claw with third world labor? Why shouldn't the Irish state represent the interests of the Irish people first and foremost?

gormdubhgorm

TomTomTim wrote: »

The first bold bit has been dealt with on these threads possibly hundreds of times by now. What's the point in people typing the same thing again, when you people just ignore it? The second bit really shows your mindset. It's the typical, immigrants great, native Irish bad, mindset that is so common with you types.

Firstly, so people who have just commented on the thread now get shouted down and told to read the whole thread in it's entirety? That is lovely. If that was to hold true on all boards.ie threads. I believe the site would not last long.

Secondly, what you have done is attempt to conflate my point to suit your own agenda.
NOWHERE did I state all immigrants great, native Irish bad. My point was far more nuanced and may have gone over your head?
Finally, perhaps what I have said was too close to the bone for you as it certainly gives off that impression.

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Firstly, so people who have just commented on the thread now get shouted down and told to read the whole thread in it's entirety? That is lovely. If that was to hold true on all boards.ie threads. I believe the site would not last long.

First, you weren't shouted down by anyone. Second, you don't need to read the whole thread. Just make an effort and read ten or so past pages to get up to speed with what's been covered.

Posters make allowances for new people joining in on a long running thread, but at the same time, it gets tiresome seeing the exact same points being made.. obvious ones that have been countered repeatedly.

Secondly, what you have done is attempt to conflate my point to suit your own agenda.
NOWHERE did I state all immigrants great, native Irish bad. My point was far more nuanced and may have gone over your head?
Finally, perhaps what I have said was too close to the bone for you as it certainly gives off that impression.

You focused entirely on working class Irish as the ones having grievances... twice. You should consider the content of your own posts.

And don't throw out the emotional response BS. It's been done before and it's a sad sad comeback. Argue your points. Show us why we should agree with you. Its really that simple.

gormdubhgorm

Sand wrote: »

I think its telling that you consider concerns over mass migration to be an issue for people who are easily outworked, will be overtaken in social status, dependent, uneducated, lazy, fearful, easily manipulated and eager to blame others for their problems. A low status issue for low status people who should be cast aside if they cant compete, right?

It seems to me then that your convictions around this issue have more to do with trying to portray yourself as high status. You're not concerned about competing with the rest of the world, because you're none of the above right?

Which completely misses addressing why must Irish people compete tooth and claw with third world labor? Why shouldn't the Irish state represent the interests of the Irish people first and foremost?

Again not true and far from it. Plenty of people have done better in Irish society than I have. However, I do not begrudge people for it who have worked hard and climbed the ladder.
Irish people have to compete will all labour not just third world labour.
We live in a world when most of technology is made in China. Guinness's biggest market is Nigeria. And Ireland has done well out of attracting FDI from US tech giants.
The very nature of the world is competition and the cream will rise to the top. Barring the odd exception.

Stop people coming in completely and see what happens?
Might as well as pull out of the EU as well Ireland has enough Eastern Europeans?
Example:
Who picks Irish fruit = non-Irish.
Why because the non-Irish are willing to do hard labour and work for low pay.

Irish people have done exactly the same thing worldwide moving abroad for a better life. I have no problem with any decent person doing the same.

Geuze

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I find the whole tone of the 100% anti migrant side ironic considering only 150 years ago. Irish people fled famine and persecution (many with no English) and had to suffer the same 'we don't like your types around here' vibes. It was not Ireland's best and brightest who went on the boat to England/USA as maids and labourers, for example.

I don't think anybody is anti all immigrants?

If so, I don't agree with that.

There were 85,000 immigrants last year, and I am "anti" the minority of them who are illegal immigrants.

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

First, you weren't shouted down by anyone. Second, you don't need to read the whole thread. Just make an effort and read ten or so past pages to get up to speed with what's been covered.

Posters make allowances for new people joining in on a long running thread, but at the same time, it gets tiresome seeing the exact same points being made.. obvious ones that have been countered repeatedly.



You focused entirely on working class Irish as the ones having grievances... twice. You should consider the content of your own posts.

And don't throw out the emotional response BS. It's been done before and it's a sad sad comeback. Argue your points. Show us why we should agree with you. Its really that simple.

I have it is the Irish working class that is the issue.
I will tell you why.

1) Blue collar workers manual labour - where all you need is two arms and to legs
2) Lack of education.
3) More prone to casual racism
4) Blame migrants for thier issues

Rinse and repeat. Then any migrant who is integrated and educated is viewed the exception rather than the rule. All it takes is a few migrants who are viewed as spongers/dole cheats and criminals to say ah sure they are all at it!

In my opinion. People who are confident in themselves and thier own culture would have no real issue with multiculturalism.

Sand

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Irish people have to compete will all labour not just third world labour.
We live in a world when most of technology is made in China. Guinness's biggest market is Nigeria. And Ireland has done well out of attracting FDI from US tech giants.
The very nature of the world is competition and the cream will rise to the top. Barring the odd exception.

That is a very naive view of the world. To protect EU firms, the EU operates trade barriers against non-EU competition, both in blunt terms such as tariffs, but also in more subtle ways by imposing standards which non-EU countries cant easily meet. All countries, such as the US and China do the same. Countries set policies to attract and protect their investors.

Why shouldn't the countries similarly set policies to protect their people? That is the entire purpose of the Irish state - representing the Irish people. If it abandons that, it loses it's legitimacy.

Stop people coming in completely and see what happens?
Might as well as pull out of the EU as well Ireland has enough Eastern Europeans?

Well, one in five of the Irish population is foreign born so the while you try to pretend the dramatic, radical policy is stopping all migration into the country the reality is the radical policy is the mass migration Ireland has experienced in just 20-25 years.

Example:
Who picks Irish fruit = non-Irish.
Why because the non-Irish are willing to do hard labour and work for low pay.

That's nonsense. In the UK recently, 30,000 British workers signed up to pick fruit during the summer for British agricultural corporations. They were all rejected, with the corporations preferring to fly in workers from abroad to do the picking instead. They do this because the UK sets policy to make it preferable to hire non-UK workers, rather than UK workers.

It surely would be better for the UK to have 30,000 British workers getting paid (plus saving the planet by reducing air travel). But that policy isnt pursued, why not? And why is it a problem for British workers to get good pay for hard work? Surely that pay then helps fuel the British economy?

Irish people have done exactly the same thing worldwide moving abroad for a better life. I have no problem with any decent person doing the same.

Irish people should and do have a problem with the future you envision for them.

Sand

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

In my opinion. People who are confident in themselves and thier own culture would have no real issue with multiculturalism.

Back to the low status/high status signalling again.

gormdubhgorm

Geuze wrote: »

I don't think anybody is anti all immigrants?

If so, I don't agree with that.

There were 85,000 immigrants last year, and I am "anti" the minority of them who are illegal immigrants.

Of course there is a cohort who lump all immigrants together whether they are illegal or not. They get put in the same box.

As for people accepting and integrating into Irish culture - argument. I always find it amusing. As the vast majority in Ireland converse in English as thier first language and are enveloped in English/British pass times/popular culture anyway!

What's Irish culture these days?

Religion? = No
Language? = No

The Pub = Yes

Sand

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

As for people accepting and integrating into Irish culture - argument. I always find it amusing. As the vast majority in Ireland converse in English as thier first language and are enveloped in English/British pass times/popular culture anyway!

Irish people speak English these days (and not Gaelic) because of the unique historical experiences of the Irish people.

gormdubhgorm

Sand wrote: »

Back to the low status/high status signalling again.

Signalling? Typical internet language? Who talks like that? Signalling? Would you say that guff in the pub?

My point is a valid one it is the working class Irish who are most uncomfortable/fearful about multiculturalism. You know it and I know it.
It is up to you to admit why.
I can't make you.
Using silly trendy internet buzzwords like 'signalling' does not answer the question.

gormdubhgorm

Sand wrote: »

Irish people speak English these days (and not Gaelic) because of the unique historical experiences of the Irish people.

Not strictly true about 100 years since Ireland was a Free State. And Hungary managed to revive its own language in the same time period for example. Yet some people have the pure neck to be afraid of a bit of multiculturalism.
Says it all about the hypocritical mindset of many in Ireland.

Hypocrites pure and simple.

Sand

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Signalling? Typical internet language? Who talks like that signalling? Would you say that guff in the pub?

My point is a valid one it is the working class Irish who are most uncomfortable/fearful about multiculturalism. You know it and I know it.
It is up to you to admit why.
I can't make you.
Using silly trendy internet buzzwords like 'signalling' does not answer the question.

Its clear you place no value on Irish people. Your vision of the country appears to not be a country at all, but instead some sort of economic thunderdome where the weak deservedly perish. It's a naive view and not one Irish people would ever endorse.

Sand

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not strictly true

Entirely true.

gormdubhgorm

Sand wrote: »

Its clear you place no value on Irish people. Your vision of the country appears to not be a country at all, but instead some sort of economic thunderdome where the weak deservedly perish. It's a naive view and not one Irish people would ever endorse.

All lives are valued, but those who make a contribution to society do better
It is the way Ireland works whether you like it or not. And those who fail to thrive are saved by the Welfare State. Not naïve at all just practical and realistic.

TomTomTim

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Of course there is a cohort who lump all immigrants together whether they are illegal or not. They get put in the same box.

Show me some posts here that reflect said sentiment. I've seen nothing of the sort here, quite the opposite actually. I personally think some immigrant groups preform well here, while others simply don't. It's usually your side that likes to deal in absolutes.

gormdubhgorm

TomTomTim wrote: »

Show me some posts here that reflect said sentiment. I've seen nothing of the sort here, quite the opposite actually. I personally think some immigrant groups preform well here, while others simply don't. It's usually your side that likes to deal in absolutes.

I never said you did I was speaking generally. There are no sides in this, merely the reality that it is mostly working class natives who feel threatened by multiculturalism. History has shown that time and time again. You only have to talk to people from those areas to get that sense.

Sand

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

All lives are valued, but those who make a contribution to society do better
It is the way Ireland works whether you like it or not. And those who fail to thrive are saved by the Welfare State. Not naïve at all just practical and realistic.

Would you be okay with Irish people being a minority in Ireland, so long as the new majority where hard working, well educated and socially liberal? Essentially better people in your view than the Irish working class.