What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

gormdubhgorm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

No. Learn your history. The idea of the Celts is a 18th cen phenomenon. The Saxons did not arrive here in any great numbers. Vikings probably not either.

True and the creation of an Irish race narrative was popularised by Pearce and continued in Ireland in later decades.

See Tailteann Games: "meeting of the Irish race"

https://www.theirishstory.com/2011/02/23/the-tailteann-games-1924-1936/#.X3yM72hKgYw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailteann_Games_(Irish_Free_State)

Sand

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Irishness is basically a lost culture now and has copied and held on to many of Britain's despite nearly a century of freedom. No doubt you know people who hate the Irish language and say 'we' for British football teams. Yet are terrified of multiculturalism?

Irish people saying they will fight for Ireland is a typical Irish persons over compensation to show how 'Irish' they are. Despite many barely speaking a word of Irish and being enveloped in British culture. Makes me laugh.

You pretend that others only identify Irish identity with religion. Yet you only accept language as Irish identity. People are Irish because their parents were Irish, and their parents were Irish and their parents were Irish and their parents were Irish all the way back in time. Irish culture is whatever Irish people pursue and enjoy.

A thousand years ago the inhabitants of Ireland mainly spoke Gaelic. Now they mainly speak English. Culture changes. You really need to get over it.

Cordell

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is just one country you have named. There are many cultures who either do not drink to excess, and there are some who do not drink at all.

If you do not see Ireland's cultural acceptance of an abnormal relationship with drink. It is just pure denial. Plus the French do not have a binge drinking cultural acceptance like the Irish. Big difference.

So you want to solve the Irish drinking problem by bringing in a culture that reject alcohol, like, let's say, the culture of peace? Do you know that in those cultures they accept, among other horrible things, the casual use of hash and opium?

Dyr

TomTomTim wrote: »

All your reasons seem to be motivated by a hatred of the CC and alcohol culture..

You need to broaden the scope of the hatred out about a bit, its a general repulsion at the concept of "Irishness". Bad dose of post colonial syndrome, probably too far gone at this stage for much to be done

gormdubhgorm

Cordell wrote: »

So you want to solve the Irish drinking problem by bringing in a culture that reject alcohol, like, let's say, the culture of peace? Do you know that in those cultures they accept, among other horrible things, the casual use of hash and opium?

I never said it would solve Ireland's issue with drink but it could 'water down' the Irish cultural acceptance of binge drinking over time. Other cultures created acupuncture. As as far as I know acupuncture is legal in Ireland whereas opium and hash are not.
Cigarettes are legal though because they are a good money making racket for the exchequer - socially acceptable. And they make more money than the cost of treatment of smoking related illnesses.

It is all what ends up as acceptable in the majority in country which decides what is legal and what is not.

gormdubhgorm

Sand wrote: »

You pretend that others only identify Irish identity with religion. Yet you only accept language as Irish identity. People are Irish because their parents were Irish, and their parents were Irish and their parents were Irish and their parents were Irish all the way back in time. Irish culture is whatever Irish people pursue and enjoy.

A thousand years ago the inhabitants of Ireland mainly spoke Gaelic. Now they mainly speak English. Culture changes. You really need to get over it.

The fact you say Gaelic instead of Gaeilge says to me you are a lot more distant to Irishness than you pretend.

You contradict yourself and say culture changes which is the point I was making about Multiculturalism!

And in my opinion those fearful of it in Ireland are nothing more than hypocrites' as they have been enveloped by British culture language and pastimes.

Explain this part:

Sand wrote: »

People are Irish because their parents were Irish, and their parents were Irish and their parents were Irish and their parents were Irish all the way back in time.

Does this mean to be classed as Irish in your view it has to go back generations?
All the way back in time does that mean Africa if you go back far enough.

Also you do realise people who ended up on the Island of Ireland intermingled with many different cultures. So being Irish is basically like mongrel there is no Irish race as such. Ireland is populated in the majority by what is known as Caucasians.

Basically what exactly is an Irish person to you a Caucasian non-traveller? Or what is your definition?

gormdubhgorm

Bambi wrote: »

You need to broaden the scope of the hatred out about a bit, its a general repulsion at the concept of "Irishness". Bad dose of post colonial syndrome, probably too far gone at this stage for much to be done

Off the ball stuff is all you seem to offer. Little real thought. Yet here you are conversing in English (the colonial language) making a snide remark about post colonial syndrome.

What would your concept of 'Irishness' be? Following the Dubs and hoping it covers up the glaring contradictions?

Wibbs

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are proving my point here your main sense of Irishness seems to simply equate to being anti-Islam. Which you have a problem with for some reason.

The same reason I have against old style Catholicism, I've a problem with medieval religions and attitudes based on a bronze age sky fairy of goat herders. We have removed one, why some have the horn to bring in another one is beyond me. Well not really, it's the old European gra for orientalism, the exotic.

Which is exactly the same thing the English did with Irish Catholics viewing it as a "backward ideology".

And in many ways they were correct. The last few decades have seen us throw off teh shackles of that ideology.

Normally many Irish people left Ireland if they were able to before this and made lives for themselves in other countries. In the 19th century many of these Irish had no English.
Yet today, Irish people who have relatives of those scattered around the world don’t want to let the foreigners into Ireland (who are looking for a better life) without a hint of irony or awareness.

Do keep up. Others have flogged that horse to death and it was on its last legs on the way to the knacker's yard from the start. But hey, to summarise it for the cheap seats:

1) the vast majority emigrated to European colonies that required the "huddled masses" to function and further colonise the place. They were built from the ground up on immigration. Ireland wasn't and isn't.

2) For all that built in "multiculturalism" in those places who's on top, who has always been on top and who remains at the bottom? Yeah clearly this "diversity" works.

3) Try getting into those same European colonies today without qualifications and a means of support and see how that works out for you. The huddled masses are so required anymore.

4) Those same immigrants had no social welfare waiting for them. It started and ended in charity. Workers rights were almost non existent. They had to hit the ground running or game over.

5) The need for muscle power was far more in play then. Unskilled labourers were in high demand and many skills could be learned on the job. 21st century Ireland is very different and increasing automation will make unskilled labour ever more a decreasing need.

5) The vast majority entered those nations legally.

So yeah, just a tad different to someone illegally fetching up in Ireland during a boom(well of course) and having their waters break on the pier at Rosslare to get a passport and social welfare and housing. But hey, keep banging that drum.

Cordell

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Other cultures created acupuncture. As as far as I know acupuncture is legal in Ireland whereas opium and hash are not.

Acupuncture is a pseudoscience, that is a scam and a fraud, so I fail to see where is the positive aspect. We already had homeopathy, which just as useless but at least it doesn't hurt.

Kivaro

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I still firmly believe it is a native working class Irish issue. As any migrants who work harder than them will easily overtake them. And in a generation or so will have overtaken them in social status.
.....

It is not the migrants that is the issue but the lazy element of the native Irish working class. They can easily be whipped up into a frenzy if someone else is found to blame for thier problems.

For a poster who repeatedly denigrates the Irish working class, you seem to find the time to post a lot on this thread ........... during the normal working hours of the day.

r439z5ifwt8soq

Its great having a bunch of different cultures in Ireland.

People love to only point out the bad side in certain cultures or religions which wouldn't be considered to be 'native' to Ireland. The same people find all sorts of excuses to justify why we shouldn't accept certain people into the country. Some people even think that we will lose every shred of Irish culture altogether, which is such sensationalist bull****, but you're always going to have people who want to find the bad in everything.

Santana Warm Cork

Santana Warm Cork wrote: »

Its great having a bunch of different cultures in Ireland.

People love to only point out the bad side in certain cultures or religions which wouldn't be considered to be 'native' to Ireland. The same people find all sorts of excuses to justify why we shouldn't accept certain people into the country. Some people even think that we will lose every shred of Irish culture altogether, which is such sensationalist bull****, but you're always going to have people who want to find the bad in everything.

Just as we're always going to get posters who read the thread title, ignore every post that's gone before, and post up some general nonsense that doesn't represent the truth of the thread contributions.

Yup. Welcome to that club.

r439z5ifwt8soq

Deleted User wrote: »

Just as we're always going to get posters who read the thread title, ignore every post that's gone before, and post up some general nonsense that doesn't represent the truth of the thread contributions.

Yup. Welcome to that club.

Sorry for not reading 209 pages before posting Klaz, why don't you call the thread police

gormdubhgorm

Wibbs wrote: »

5) The vast majority entered those nations legally.

So yeah, just a tad different to someone illegally fetching up in Ireland during a boom(well of course) and having their waters break on the pier at Rosslare to get a passport and social welfare and housing. But hey, keep banging that drum.

I will deal with this point as it sums up your attitude after the bluster. You equate immigrant with illegal. Shows the mindset no where did I say illegal immigrants that are not permitted asylum should be allowed in.

The Legal Aid Board: Refugee Documentation deal with researching Country of Origin information in Asylum/Refugee applications.

It is there for a reason:

https://www.legalaidboard.ie/en/lawyers-and-experts/research-information/refugee-documentation-centre-services/

Multiculturalism does not only mean refugees as many like you are quickly to jump to. It is the support of another ethnic group in another society. I believe that Ireland has reached a time to be a more multicultural nation. Giving Ireland and the Irish a chance to move away from its inferiority complex following its own time as a Colony. A chance to take a more mature view and look for a more cosmopolitan society. In the long run it will mean a stronger economy, better society and a larger population that will be able to better weather the effects of any future recessions.

Santana Warm Cork

Santana Warm Cork wrote: »

Sorry for not reading 209 pages before posting Klaz, why don't you call the thread police

As I said to gormdubhgorm, just read the last ten pages, and you'll get most of the current discussion, along with a lot of the points you just referenced. Surely, reading ten or so pages isn't too hard?

gormdubhgorm

Tony_Squatch wrote: »

Its great having a bunch of different cultures in Ireland.

People love to only point out the bad side in certain cultures or religions which wouldn't be considered to be 'native' to Ireland. The same people find all sorts of excuses to justify why we shouldn't accept certain people into the country. Some people even think that we will lose every shred of Irish culture altogether, which is such sensationalist bull****, but you're always going to have people who want to find the bad in everything.

Deleted User wrote: »

As I said to gormdubhgorm, just read the last ten pages, and you'll get most of the current discussion, along with a lot of the points you just referenced. Surely, reading ten or so pages isn't too hard?

A lovely get out you have telling people to read the thread. :rolleyes:

I have read 10 pages or so and engaged on it for a few days. The vibes on here point to the poster being spot on.

Go back a page and see a regular poster on the thread mention immorality, cultural genocide, another seems to have a pathological fear of Islam.

Oh and posters assuming I am not Irish!

It is head-the-ball collection of gombeens.

Wibbs

Santana Warm Cork wrote: »

Its great having a bunch of different cultures in Ireland.

Why? That's an answer we don't tend to get, merely the statement. Oh and fripperies like "different food" and more "diversity".

People love to only point out the bad side in certain cultures or religions which wouldn't be considered to be 'native' to Ireland.

You don't need to parenthesise native, they're not native.

And it's less about cultures or faiths(though the latter have largely outlived their usefullness in the modern world beyond personal panacea) and more about how different cultures don't tend to mix in the ever out of reach melting pot fantasy. The more unlike the locals they are, the more this is the case. Again please point me to any "multicultural" nation on earth where the darker of skin don't tend to coalesce at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder? The only ones that do well are the qualified and legal immigrants and that's not what's coming across the Mediterranean being ferried ashore by traffickers and EU navies. That's not what came here during the baby passport boom at the turn of the century. Nearly 100% of whom would be rejected today, after a vote by the Irish electorate with a bigger majority than all the other referendums closed that loophole.



The same people find all sorts of excuses to justify why we shouldn't accept certain people into the country. Some people even think that we will lose every shred of Irish culture altogether, which is such sensationalist bull****, but you're always going to have people who want to find the bad in everything.

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

A lovely get out you have telling people to read the thread. :rolleyes:

I have read 10 pages or so and engaged on it for a few days. The vibes on here point to the poster being spot on.

Go back a page and see a regular poster on the thread mention immorality, cultural genocide, another seems to have a pathological fear of Islam.

Oh and posters assuming I am not Irish!
It is head-the-ball collection of gombeens.

I know how long you've been posting to the thread, and you came on to the thread spouting all manner of ignorant crap about working class people, and then moved on to insulting comments. So.. nah.. your credibility is rather low.

gormdubhgorm

Kivaro wrote: »

For a poster who repeatedly denigrates the Irish working class, you seem to find the time to post a lot on this thread ........... during the normal working hours of the day.

I could have covid19 or worse be part of a secret Islamic cell. Who knows?
Don't tell anyone!

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

I know how long you've been posting to the thread, and you came on to the thread spouting all manner of ignorant crap about working class people, and then moved on to insulting comments. So.. nah.. your credibility is rather low.

You know there is truth in it regarding the 'working class' fearing multiculturalism.
I sense it is too close to the bone for you, much easier to dismiss me as being insulting and having no credibility.

Wibbs

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I will deal with this point as it sums up your attitude after the bluster. You equate immigrant with illegal.

The majority of those who came here in the late 90's and early 2000's would be illegal today and only got residency because of a since closed legal loophole. And they also have a higher requirement for social welfare.
The Legal Aid Board: Refugee Documentation deal with researching Country of Origin information in Asylum/Refugee applications.

Multiculturalism does not only mean refugees as many like you are quickly to jump to. It is the support of another ethnic group in another society. I believe that Ireland has reached a time to be a more multicultural nation. Giving Ireland and the Irish a chance to move away from its inferiority complex following its own time as a Colony.

Maybe the inferiority complex is in your head, it's long gone in the rest of people's.

A chance to take a more mature view and look for a more cosmopolitan society. In the long run it will mean a stronger economy, better society and a larger population that will be able to better weather the effects of any future recessions.

More flim flam that you can't back up with facts. Mature? By whose measure? Yours? I'll try not to laugh. Is Japan a mature nation and culture? They're not into this diversity stuff. Cosmopolitan? More undefined window dressing that means eff all under the barest of examination. Or are we still on the Uzbek cafe in leafy suburbia?

As for more people. Well done, you're singing from the usual hymn sheet of the multiculturalists and capitalists. One that doesn't stay in tune in Ireland. 1) we have the highest native birthrate of any EU nation. 2) we need fewer people worldwide, not more. 3) the economics of a larger population don't stack up, except for an economic model that needs more people to consume more crap. A model that will look stale in the not too distant future.

Oh and all this "mature" and "cosmopolitan" and lack of "colonial inferiority complexes" talk. OK, is say Tanzania in need of the above? Is Tanzania in need of the same diversity? Does Tanzania need a significant rise in the number of White Europeans? Does Uganda? India? Korea? Yeah; it's funny how it's always and only White culturally European nominally christian nations that appear to be in dire need of more dark faces* and exotic faiths. Never the other way around. Indeed that would be discouraged.






*East Asian faces not so much. Not nearly so exotic or in need of arrogant "charity" as the darker of hue. Well as they have proven worldwide, they don't need it.

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You know there is truth in it regarding the 'working class' fearing multiculturalism.
I sense it is too close to the bone for you, much easier to dismiss me as being insulting and having no credibility.

gormdubhgorm wrote:

This thread is proof of it many off the wall people with an off the wall mentality. Once they die off Ireland will settle down for the better

That was enough for me. Once a poster starts posting those kind of statements, there's little point trying to reason with them. So... yeah...

Deshawn

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

This thread is proof of it many off the wall people with an off the wall mentality.
Once they die off Ireland will settle down for the better. Might be the odd working class riot, but it will give an opportunity for a rebuild.

What does that even mean?

Justin Credible Darts

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Would not bother me in the slightest. Ireland is no longer really a Catholic nation.
Abortion, divorce and regular mass attendance rates demonstrate this. If religion is your basis for Irish cultural values - it is on very shaky ground.

what has catholic got to do with culture ?


make up your mind, earlier it was the drink.


Truth is, for decades we had chinese in this country, indian, brits, yanks, french etc,, go to the hospitals and see how thankful people are for all those foreign doctors



Its the huge amount that are coming that are not going to contribute but bleed the already Irish crippled system.
The housing lists are already packed.


Before you try make this a race issue, I dont care if they are white, black blue , green gay or straight, there should be a limit on how many we take.


All those with a criminal record automatically refused entry or deported.
any one that breaks the law with a serious crime get deported after their sentence.,

Wibbs

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You know there is truth in it regarding the 'working class' fearing multiculturalism.
I sense it is too close to the bone for you, much easier to dismiss me as being insulting and having no credibility.

I'm middle class and not just two generations from the tenement or smallholding either and multiculturalism is unlikely to ever affect me directly, which is why leafy suburbia is more likely to parrot the diversity is strength credo. It's at a safe distance and isn't it lovely to have an Indian GP to make themselves feel better and more "cosmopolitan". Though they'll tend to send precious Saoirse and Proinsias to a Gaelscoil as their diversity tends to have limits and not just racial ones. I know the breed all too well.

And as we've seen in every other nation that has run this social experiment or has been forced upon them by their own pasts, it is primarily the native working class who get the thin end of the wedge and have to live with the consequences of multiculturalism and the inevitable ghettoisation that kicks off. White flight is only for the more well off.

gormdubhgorm

Wibbs wrote: »

The majority of those who came here in the late 90's and early 2000's would be illegal today and only got residency because of a since closed legal loophole. And they also have a higher requirement for social welfare.

What's your issue so sounds like you are in a mad panic over nothing?

Maybe the inferiority complex is in your head, it's long gone in the rest of people's. More flim flam that you can't back up with facts. Mature? By whose measure? Yours? I'll try not to laugh. Is Japan a mature nation and culture? They're not into this diversity stuff. Cosmopolitan? More undefined window dressing that means eff all under the barest of examination. Or are we still on the Uzbek cafe in leafy suburbia?

I have already pointed you to the LAB refugee doc centre people do not just walk in without back stories being checked. I could bring out case law legislation and so on. But that is for a different thread and would make this on off topic.

I don't know what an Uzbek cafe is like I am more of a carvery person.

As for more people. Well done, you're singing from the usual hymn sheet of the multiculturalists and capitalists. One that doesn't stay in tune in Ireland. 1) we have the highest native birthrate of any EU nation. 2) we need fewer people worldwide, not more. 3) the economics of a larger population don't stack up, except for an economic model that needs more people to consume more crap. A model that will look stale in the not too distant future.

The younger population is needed to pay for future pensions.

Oh and all this "mature" and "cosmopolitan" and lack of "colonial inferiority complexes" talk. OK, is say Tanzania in need of the above? Is Tanzania in need of the same diversity? Does Tanzania need a significant rise in the number of White Europeans? Does Uganda? India? Korea? Yeah; it's funny how it's always and only White culturally European nominally christian nations that appear to be in dire need of more dark faces* and exotic faiths. Never the other way around. Indeed that would be discouraged.

Now you are being silly plenty of white Europeans go to where the quality of life is better. Where thier qualifications can earn them more money. Middle East and so on. I had a Uncle who went to Nigeria in the 60's as a engineer, as Nigeria restructured post British rule.

gormdubhgorm

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

what has catholic got to do with culture ?


make up your mind, earlier it was the drink.


Truth is, for decades we had chinese in this country, indian, brits, yanks, french etc,, go to the hospitals and see how thankful people are for all those foreign doctors



Its the huge amount that are coming that are not going to contribute but bleed the already Irish crippled system.
The housing lists are already packed.


Before you try make this a race issue, I dont care if they are white, black blue , green gay or straight, there should be a limit on how many we take.


All those with a criminal record automatically refused entry or deported.
any one that breaks the law with a serious crime get deported after their sentence.,

Being Catholic had a lot to do with Irish identity. That is beyond question. Irish pub culture and is integral as well just the way it is.

I agree with you on the good work of foreign doctors and nurses. Also with your point on deporting those who commit serious crime.

gormdubhgorm

Deshawn wrote: »

What does that even mean?

It means there is a lot of fear and scaremongering in this thread of multiculturalism in this thread.
Such fear predominately working-class driven as they lack confidence in thier sense of Irishness.

Wibbs

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The younger population is needed to pay for future pensions.

Ireland is in native population growth, but ignore the facts when they don't suit.

Now you are being silly plenty of white Europeans go to where the quality of life is better. Where thier qualifications can earn them more money. Middle East and so on. I had a Uncle who went to Nigeria in the 60's as a engineer as Nigeria restructured post British rule.

You didn't answer my question. Naturally. Again is in your example, Nigeria in need of 10% of its population to be White European to be more "cosmopolitan", and "mature" in its "post colonial inferiority complex"? Is Uganda? Is Sudan? Why does this diversity only go one way?

As for the ME, try getting social welfare and housing in Dubai. Never mind all those Muslim nations and their attitudes and lack of help for their fellow Muslim refugees. Stellar performance all around...

Kivaro

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I could have covid19 or worse be part of a secret Islamic cell. Who knows?
Don't tell anyone!

To be honest with you, every time I see a poster trying to spout this nonsense that Irish culture does not exist, and also repeatedly posts gleefully about the current generation of Irish will soon "die off"; I have a mental image of a member from the Muslim Brotherhood in Dublin or some other Irish-hating group who have received all the benefits possible from the Irish State but are never happy here.
It is sad really ..... that they have so much hate for the Irish people in Ireland.