What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

excludedbin

Wibbs wrote: »

So yet again no actual points on the pro side of multiculturalism?

Just following the example of the anti side, Wibbs.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

notice how they love to label people idiots or gullible if they have the audacity to dare disagree with them.
Then think they are enlighten

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's generally those who claim to be liberal, tolerant and enlightened who are in fact the most close-minded, aggressive, and dismissive of the lot.

And I'm sure if I went back through the hundreds of pages this thread has managed to wheeze along, I'd find worse still. What's the point in trying to reason with people who think like that? At what point does the hatred of anyone different become acceptable to point out as being based in bigotry?

Now I know, someone who thinks they're some real hot **** will jump at this and say "aha but you hate people that're different too" with the unspoken word there being 'just'. I don't hate people 'just' because they're different but when their views cause harm to others. Hating immigrants isn't simply "a different opinion", it's one that causes actual harm to others because of the violence it inevitably fosters.

At what point can you say "hold on now, this is just racism"? Because the prevailing message on this thread is that the answer is "never". It doesn't exist and you're the close-minded, aggressive one for suggesting it does.

And I get it, I do, that racists really don't like when their opinions are correctly identified as such but what I can't, for the life of me, understand is why so many others will defend them. You can't really blame anyone for drawing the most obvious and reasonable conclusion as to why.

I'm also not going to pretend I'll ever understand people who object to immigration because... I can't. I understand it in an academic, abstract sense in that I know the reasons they give but I've never felt like that and I can't imagine it. The concept is just completely alien to me. Far from becoming more right wing as I've aged, I've become more tolerant, less caring of what people do that doesn't harm others. There was a time when I might've been more sympathetic to some of the less extreme views on the thread (and others on the forum) but nowadays it just baffles me. And I imagine that's the case for many others who disagree with the 'anti multiculturalism' side here.

Just think about it; why does the mere presence of immigrants offend so many here? Why do so many people spend their days charting every immigrant that commits a crime as if they're not human like the rest of us? Why are so many obsessed with a nonsensical idea of culture being static when that's never been the case? And, strangely enough, why do so many that apparently care about 'culture' then turn around and mock and deride the very same people who create and contribute to that culture because they don't share their opinions on immigrants?

Because time and again you see it, anyone in the creative fields that are, admittedly, dominated by left wing politics, is absolutely pilloried. That's the point, it becomes clear that their issue is and never has been about culture. But they've learned that they can't be quite so open about what their real issue is so they have to clumsily try and conceal it. But threads like this and others lay bare the contradictions.

Are the rest of us meant to just ignore that or pretend we can't see it? Because that's something I don't have any tolerance for these days. "Tell it like it is," unless you're left wing and then you're not allowed express your honest opinions.

Justin Credible Darts

wow

Cordell

why does the mere presence of immigrants offend so many here?

Why is it a problem? Some people like the "melting pot" thing, some don't really care, and some are bothered. Why aren't the latter allowed to be bothered? Why is it acceptable to condemn irish criminals, but it's not acceptable to say there's enough irish criminals, there's no need to import more? Why is it not acceptable for irish people to be bothered by the fact that they may not be able to get their school of choice because it's already oversubscribed with in some cases 1/3 or more immigrants? Why not openly discuss all of this, without labeling them racists and shutting them down?

I'm an immigrant myself, so I can't be racist about it.

excludedbin

excludedbin wrote: »

Notice how right wingers are still pushing this line? It's been decades now, lads, you're not fooling anyone but the gullible and the idiotic.

Well, see... here's the problem. From what I've seen, anyone who doesn't wholeheartedly embraces your philosophy (I'm being generous in assuming there is an actual philosophy ) is labelled as being right wing.

Like, I'm guessing based on the manner of your response, and that you quoted me, that you would consider me to be right wing... but I'm actually very much in the center, with some leanings towards the left on certain issues. But that won't matter because your interpretation of what means to be right wing, basically comes down to who you decide should be called such.

People, like yourself, feel the need to label others based on... well... nothing. Which is why the term "right wing" has lost any real definition in a social sense. It retains some definition in a political sense, but your kind of labeling makes a mockery of that.

Yellow_Fern

excludedbin wrote: »

I've become more tolerant, less caring of what people do that doesn't harm others.

Yet you think everyone here are big nasty lying racists?

excludedbin wrote: »

Why do so many people spend their days charting every immigrant that commits a crime as if they're not human like the rest of us?

You cant help people if you don't know what is going on. There is enormous variation between different groups in likelihood of being known to the courts. That is worthy of investigation.

excludedbin wrote: »

Why are so many obsessed with a nonsensical idea of culture being static when that's never been the case?

No one said that.

excludedbin wrote: »

And, strangely enough, why do so many that apparently care about 'culture' then turn around and mock and deride the very same people who create and contribute to that culture because they don't share their opinions on immigrants?

There are not so many posts here about the arts and very few are attacking the arts, unless I missed a lot?

excludedbin wrote: »

Because time and again you see it, anyone in the creative fields that are, admittedly, dominated by left wing politics, is absolutely pilloried.

Where is culture or creative people pillorised? Also culture is much than artists and musicians and poets. Not everyone is into that but they still have a right to be concerned about kids growing up in Ireland with American or Estuary accents or the many other effects of multiculturalism.

excludedbin

excludedbin wrote: »

Now I know, someone who thinks they're some real hot **** will jump at this and say "aha but you hate people that're different too" with the unspoken word there being 'just'. I don't hate people 'just' because they're different but when their views cause harm to others. Hating immigrants isn't simply "a different opinion", it's one that causes actual harm to others because of the violence it inevitably fosters.

Twist much?

Like seriously.. you know you could argue what is actually written by posters rather than interjecting attitudes that weren't made and then deciding to run with those?

And this is why it's so difficult to have a reasonable debate with posters like yourself. You feel the need to alter the message rather than debate what has been written by posters. You make claims about hatred, and racism but fail to provide any evidence to support such claims... or you'll find one poster who said something once, and thus use it as supreme evidence that everyone here is the same.

You're not going to get much respect from other posters because you don't argue in good faith.

Justin Credible Darts

I must have missed it, can someone please direct me to these posts where people have claimed to HATE IMMIGRANTS that excludedbin refers to.

I cannot see them.

Zookey123

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's generally those who claim to be liberal, tolerant and enlightened who are in fact the most close-minded, aggressive, and dismissive of the lot.

Any actual evidence of this or just your biased opinion? I would associate those traits more with the conservative right. Nothing wrong with tolerance as long as it doesn't tolerate intolerance. I wouldn't base any opinions off of anonymous online forums either.

TomTomTim

Zookey123 wrote: »

Any actual evidence of this or just your biased opinion? I would associate those traits more with the conservative right. Nothing wrong with tolerance as long as it doesn't tolerate intolerance. I wouldn't base any opinions off of anonymous online forums either.

Are you joking? Every dissenter in this threads has shown all the traits mentioned.

Kivaro

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's generally those who claim to be liberal, tolerant and enlightened who are in fact the most close-minded, aggressive, and dismissive of the lot.

And very angry.
They always seem to be very angry; that's the usual common denominator for me.

excludedbin

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, see... here's the problem. From what I've seen, anyone who doesn't wholeheartedly embraces your philosophy (I'm being generous in assuming there is an actual philosophy ) is labelled as being right wing.

Ouch. Oh, well, at least when I insult people I don't cowardly hide behind snide insinuations. If you've something to say to me then say it, klaz.

Like, I'm guessing based on the manner of your response, and that you quoted me, that you would consider me to be right wing... but I'm actually very much in the center

I really love modern discourse where apparently right wingers don't exist any more. They're all centrists. You can't swing a cat in a room of right wingers without them crying that no, no, they're actually centrists!

They're almost, almost at the point of self-awareness but somehow it still eludes them.

with some leanings towards the left on certain issues. But that won't matter because your interpretation of what means to be right wing, basically comes down to who you decide should be called such.

No, klaz, my interpretation comes down entirely to the political views that person espouses. If you don't like that your views fit into the right wing of the spectrum then perhaps you should consider why it is that the idea of being right wing is so offensive to you.

People, like yourself, feel the need to label others based on... well... nothing.

On things they've said and done. I know you lot abhor self-reflection but please, have a wee think about your own views sometime and realise that you're being judged for them.

Which is why the term "right wing" has lost any real definition in a social sense. It retains some definition in a political sense, but your kind of labeling makes a mockery of that.

Yeah, okay, can you just save the "x has lost all meaning" meme for some gullible chump who'll believe it? It's bad enough when racists try it, I'm not interested in your banal variations on a theme.

excludedbin

Kivaro wrote: »

And very angry.
They always seem to be very angry; that's the usual common denominator for me.

Said the person posting on a thread, hundreds of pages long, of right wingers incandescent with rage about (gasp!) immigrants existing on the same hunk of rock as them.

More projection than Cinemascope, as usual, from the right.

Justin Credible Darts

you have called people morons, you have name called throughout this thread, now dictating people are right wing because the dare question you.

who are these right wing people you speak off ?

4068ac1elhodqr

The best view is to take a quick look at the multicultural neighbours of uk (brexit), Sweden (gone downhill), Italy (Italexit pending), France etc.

France (Paris area) today, had a teacher decapitated because he had recently opened up a 'discussion' with students on freedom of expression and caricatures of Islam’s Prophet Muhammad before he was beheaded
https://metro.co.uk/2020/10/16/man-shot-dead-by-paris-police-after-decapitating-teacher-in-the-street-13435608/

Earlier in the week a cop shop also near Paris was attacked with fireworks, followed by an attempt to storm the actual building by 40 lads with metal bars (like a Hollywood movie)
https://news.sky.com/story/mob-armed-with-metal-bars-uses-fireworks-to-attack-paris-police-station-12101603
Officials said they "weren't far off from a disaster".

Even Macron has turned tough on the growing amounts of illegal economic migrants, and the failure of exisitng groups to integrate.

excludedbin

excludedbin wrote: »

Ouch. Oh, well, at least when I insult people I don't cowardly hide behind snide insinuations. If you've something to say to me then say it, klaz.

HAHA... now that is funny because nobody would consider me to be a subtle person. I'd incredibly direct, although I do try to temper that directness with a degree of politeness.

If I wanted to insult you, I wouldn't be subtle about it. Very heavy handed (obvious) sarcasm would be my line.

Now, perhaps address what I wrote, because you have this amazing tendency to deflect everything away from any meaningful contributions. (Yup, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you've changed somewhat from your last venture on this thread)

I really love modern discourse where apparently right wingers don't exist any more. They're all centrists. You can't swing a cat in a room of right wingers without them crying that no, no, they're actually centrists!

They're almost, almost at the point of self-awareness but somehow it still eludes them.

Ah. You've just proven my point and also doubled down on it.

No, klaz, my interpretation comes down entirely to the political views that person espouses. If you don't like that your views fit into the right wing of the spectrum then perhaps you should consider why it is that the idea of being right wing is so offensive to you.

Well.. you're welcome to point to where I've made any declaration of my political views on this thread. Go on... because you won't find it. I'm incredibly non-political... although I am concerned with social issues. As I said, you declare other posters political leanings based on... yup... nothing. (and yes, I am starting to apply some sarcasm because the manner of your posting deserves some contempt)

On things they've said and done. I know you lot abhor self-reflection but please, have a wee think about your own views sometime and realise that you're being judged for them.

My lot? There you go again, lumping me (and others) into some kind of group.

Have you managed to argue against any of the points I've made on this thread so far? Err.. no?

Yeah, okay, can you just save the "x has lost all meaning" meme for some gullible chump who'll believe it? It's bad enough when racists try it, I'm not interested in your banal variations on a theme.

It seems you're not terribly interested in anything except casting judgments from your pulpit, removed from the petty details of actually committing to an argument, and engaging in debate. :rolleyes:

Have you bothered to engage in a debate about multiculturalism, immigration, etc? Nope. Once again, you join the thread passing remarks about the posters themselves.

twinytwo

Sloan Hundreds Village wrote: »

The best view is to take a quick look at the multicultural neighbours of uk (brexit), Sweden (gone downhill), Italy (Italexit pending), France etc.

France (Paris area) today, had a teacher decapitated because he had recently opened up a 'discussion' with students on freedom of expression and caricatures of Islam’s Prophet Muhammad before he was beheaded
https://metro.co.uk/2020/10/16/man-shot-dead-by-paris-police-after-decapitating-teacher-in-the-street-13435608/

Earlier in the week a cop shop also near Paris was attacked with fireworks, followed by an attempt to storm the actual building by 40 lads with metal bars (like a Hollywood movie)
https://news.sky.com/story/mob-armed-with-metal-bars-uses-fireworks-to-attack-paris-police-station-12101603
Officials said they "weren't far off from a disaster".

Even Macron has turned tough on the growing amounts of illegal economic migrants, and the failure of exisitng groups to integrate.

But the powers that be would have you convinced that that couldn't possibly happen here, cause sure everyone loves ireland

breezy1985

Love it. Best thing ever happened Ireland

Cordell

Sloan Hundreds Village wrote: »

The best view is to take a quick look at the multicultural neighbours of uk (brexit), Sweden (gone downhill), Italy (Italexit pending), France etc.

France (Paris area) today, had a teacher decapitated because he had recently opened up a 'discussion' with students on freedom of expression and caricatures of Islam’s Prophet Muhammad before he was beheaded
https://metro.co.uk/2020/10/16/man-shot-dead-by-paris-police-after-decapitating-teacher-in-the-street-13435608/

Earlier in the week a cop shop also near Paris was attacked with fireworks, followed by an attempt to storm the actual building by 40 lads with metal bars (like a Hollywood movie)
https://news.sky.com/story/mob-armed-with-metal-bars-uses-fireworks-to-attack-paris-police-station-12101603
Officials said they "weren't far off from a disaster".

Even Macron has turned tough on the growing amounts of illegal economic migrants, and the failure of exisitng groups to integrate.

https://www.thejournal.ie/man-decapitated-france-5235821-Oct2020/
Their initial reaction was good, no crap about keeping the peace or social cohesion and all that. Will they follow up and really do something about it? Absolutely not, because social cohesion and all that.

Hamachi

breezy1985 wrote: »

Love it. Best thing ever happened Ireland

Really? How so? A brief numbered list would be great.

Justin Credible Darts

you mean the same women who advocate for rights for those muslims ?
The same muslimss who think marrying children, stoning women to death, and treating them like absolute dirt is ok.

There in likes the problem, the liberal people are caught, they go on about equality, which is fine, but you dont see them speak out when the muslims treat women like dirt, total double standards

jasper_Quinn

jasper_Quinn wrote: »

Its so ironic that the people who are pushing migration into the EU are Women, these women are the ones who are the first to feel the consequences of this,(Sweden), they will be the first to suffer when we get quotas in demographics in employment in the EU.
Women hold grudges, they plot behind the scenes without making a lost of noise, It will be women who vote and bring the far right to power in the EU, a far right they believe will bring back the rights they once had before they brought immigrants into the EU.
You can only laugh at the madness to come, otherwise you will go mad.

Err...

enricoh

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

you mean the same women who advocate for rights for those muslims ?
The same muslimss who think marrying children, stoning women to death, and treating them like absolute dirt is ok.

There in likes the problem, the liberal people are caught, they go on about equality, which is fine, but you dont see them speak out when the muslims treat women like dirt, total double standards

Ha, I remember katherine zappone in the airport when Ibrahim halawa was coming back from Egypt.
All his mates roaring Allah akbar n her standing there with a sheepish head on her. I'd say Egypt was off the holiday list after that! Self preservation kicks in n wokeness is swiftly forgotten!

Wibbs

Hamachi wrote: »

Really? How so? A brief numbered list would be great.

Forget about pros and cons for the moment this is the weirdest aspect of this belief in multiculturalism, the blind acceptance of it based on something, I dunno, like faith. People saying it's great, the best thing ever etc, yet when asked why, there's very little behind it in actual reasons why it is. It just is. It must be. With some when pushed the resort to attack, because without many reasons to back up the viewpoint there's little left to do.

For me it has genuinely been the biggest surprise of this thread. I really thought there would be far more actual debate. In every other contentious thread subject down the years you get some back and forth even if there's a majority view.

Wibbs

excludedbin wrote: »

Just following the example of the anti side, Wibbs.

In this thread many contributors have posted numerous points against multiculturalism and how it's framed today. How many in favour of it have done so? How many in favour of it fall back on direct and open insult and attack?

And I'm sure if I went back through the hundreds of pages this thread has managed to wheeze along, I'd find worse still. What's the point in trying to reason with people who think like that? At what point does the hatred of anyone different become acceptable to point out as being based in bigotry?

Those two quotes particularly the first has been borne out by this thread on nearly every page and every time a supporter of the politic wades in. Put it another way; of those that have been banned for attacking the posters not their posts, which side of the debate are they on? And before the "boards is right wing" stuff, no it is not. Try posting an actually racist statement and see how long you last. Never mind that those same posters were breaking the first rule of boards attack the post not the poster for post after post before censure.

At what point can you say "hold on now, this is just racism"? Because the prevailing message on this thread is that the answer is "never". It doesn't exist and you're the close-minded, aggressive one for suggesting it does.

I have repeatedly stated that one of the biggest negatives of this multiculturalist politic and social experiment is racism. I'll state it again just so we're clear: One of the biggest negatives of this multiculturalist politic and social experiment is racism.

And I get it, I do, that racists really don't like when their opinions are correctly identified as such but what I can't, for the life of me, understand is why so many others will defend them. You can't really blame anyone for drawing the most obvious and reasonable conclusion as to why.

Further to the above about boards bias, you're allowed to accuse people of being racists time and time again and nada.

I'm also not going to pretend I'll ever understand people who object to immigration because... I can't. I understand it in an academic, abstract sense in that I know the reasons they give but I've never felt like that and I can't imagine it. The concept is just completely alien to me. Far from becoming more right wing as I've aged, I've become more tolerant, less caring of what people do that doesn't harm others.

The argument is that the multicultural politic has many negatives that do indeed "harm others" and society at large. Not least many in the migrant populations and for generations after. Again point out any multicultural nation where some migrant groups don't tend to cluster at the bottom of the socioeconomic scale. And yes and for the third time racism is a part of that. The positives as I've said seem hard to pin down, except for the blind acceptance that they exist.

Just think about it; why does the mere presence of immigrants offend so many here?

It doesn't. I haven't read a single post or poster that has said that. There are many examples of people stating quite clearly they do not object to legal immigration of people that add to our society, even welcome it.

Why are so many obsessed with a nonsensical idea of culture being static when that's never been the case?

Culture isn't static, but populations tend to be, where they haven't been it's almost always been down to colonialism and war and resources.

Because time and again you see it, anyone in the creative fields that are, admittedly, dominated by left wing politics, is absolutely pilloried.

I have zero idea what that has to do with the subject?

Are the rest of us meant to just ignore that or pretend we can't see it? Because that's something I don't have any tolerance for these days. "Tell it like it is," unless you're left wing and then you're not allowed express your honest opinions.

When those "honest opinions" rather than actually debate the points raised tend towards calling people racist mentally ill failures it doesn't say much about the weight of the opinion behind it, does it?

kildare lad

Multiculturalism is a guilt by lefties who think their country is to white . How I ever managed to get by growing up in the 80's and 90's without multiculturalism and diversity must be a miracle. Whoever thinks bringing in loads of people from 3rd world countries is somehow going to be a benefit for the native taxpayers needs their heads examined. Nearly all couldn't support themselves if it wasn't for the government paying them HAP/ social housing , children's allowance, medical card, unemployment benefits. And yet we need them to pay are pensions in the future , they can't even pay for themselves never mind contribute towards the economy here .

Hamachi

Wibbs wrote: »

Forget about pros and cons for the moment this is the weirdest aspect of this belief in multiculturalism, the blind acceptance of it based on something, I dunno, like faith. People saying it's great, the best thing ever etc, yet when asked why, there's very little behind it in actual reasons why it is. It just is. It must be. With some when pushed the resort to attack, because without many reasons to back up the viewpoint there's little left to do.

For me it has genuinely been the biggest surprise of this thread. I really thought there would be far more actual debate. In every other contentious thread subject down the years you get some back and forth even if there's a majority view.

Indeed. It’s an unquestionable article of faith to its proponents. This point has been raised several times throughout the thread, but it’s worth reiterating.

Multiculturalism is almost a religion to some. They are 21st century clerics preaching their theology. Anybody who disagrees or dissents is seen as a heretic. This is clear in the level of spite and vitriol several posters have unloaded on this thread.

Personally, I’ve been skeptical of the benefits of multiculturalism ever since I experienced daily life in a ‘hyper diverse’ area in continental Europe. Nothing I’ve read on this thread has changed my mind.

In fact, what has become clear is that the same pro-multicultural playbook is used everywhere across Europe. When the limitations of that playbook are probed and exhausted, the response is always the same: ‘shut up you racist’.

Kivaro

enricoh wrote: »

Ha, I remember katherine zappone in the airport when Ibrahim halawa was coming back from Egypt.
All his mates roaring Allah akbar n her standing there with a sheepish head on her. I'd say Egypt was off the holiday list after that! Self preservation kicks in n wokeness is swiftly forgotten!

It was a surreal moment watching Zappone react to the Allah Akbar shouts at the airport on the return to Ireland of the Muslim Brotherhood hero.

While the Islamic terrorist was decapitating the school teacher yesterday in a suburb of Paris, he was also shouting Allah Akbar. If this is what multiculturalism brings us, then you can keep it; it is just not worth it.

Hamachi

kildare lad wrote: »

Multiculturalism is a guilt by lefties who think their country is to white . How I ever managed to get by growing up in the 80's and 90's without multiculturalism and diversity must be a miracle....

And yet we need them to pay are pensions in the future , they can't even pay for themselves never mind contribute towards the economy here .

I also find both of these arguments frustrating.

A couple of posters have claimed that multiculturalism in Ireland is helping prepare their children for a more globalized world. This is nonsense. I grew up in an almost entirely monocultural regional town (still is today) in the ‘90s. It hasn’t stopped me succeeding in a highly globalized industry. I see the same story replicated across many of my peers. The key ingredients for success are work ethic and intellectual horsepower. Multiculturalism is totally irrelevant. Instead, what they’ve actually done is to even further ratchet up the competition for the next generation, in case climbing the ladder isn’t already difficult enough...

The pensions argument doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny. Ireland is reasonably well placed demographically for a developed nation. Our fertility rate is just below replacement level. The population grows naturally by 30K-35K annually. Furthermore, looking at the population pyramid, > 21% of the population is younger than 15. The tempo effect ensures future population momentum and growth. We simply do not need people coming here to fill demographic holes. The government should be focusing on creating family-friendly policies to enable the existing population have the number of children they truly want and to boost our already healthy fertility rate.

Wibbs

Hamachi wrote: »

The pensions argument doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny. Ireland is reasonably well placed demographically for a developed nation. Our fertility rate is just below replacement level. The population grows naturally by 30K-35K annually. Furthermore, looking at the population pyramid, > 21% of the population is younger than 15. The tempo effect ensures future population momentum and growth. We simply do not need people coming here to fill demographic holes.

Of course we don't, but since this "positive" has been pushed in other nations that are actually experiencing a drop in births it's been added to the multicultural playbook and applied here anyway, with bugger all questioning by our political and media class. Another one is rural renewal which as history shows never happens as immigrants quite naturally flock to urban areas where the lives and jobs are, just like the locals did which caused the rural depopulation in the first place. Never mind that I'd bet the farm that in decades to come it will be seen as advantageous to have a smaller population and lower population density. For all sorts of good reasons.

Hamachi

Hamachi wrote: »

I also find both of these arguments frustrating.

A couple of posters have claimed that multiculturalism in Ireland is helping prepare their children for a more globalized world. This is nonsense. I grew up in an almost entirely monocultural regional town (still is today) in the ‘90s. It hasn’t stopped me succeeding in a highly globalized industry. I see the same story replicated across many of my peers. The key ingredients for success are work ethic and intellectual horsepower. Multiculturalism is totally irrelevant. Instead, what they’ve actually done is to even further ratchet up the competition for the next generation, in case climbing the ladder isn’t already difficult enough...

I too grew up in an Ireland that was predominately white, at a time, when there was extremely little immigration from other racial groups. There were very few non-Irish/non-British in my hometown, right through my teens, and while there were a few foreign students in my college, there was little chance to truly explore other cultures.

At the same time though, the lack of exposure to multiculturalism didn't stop me from appreciating and seeking to understand other cultures when I lived abroad. I started in Germany, which was very similar in some ways, but extremely different in others. A decade later, I started to move around more often, living in Moscow for a while, then heading off to Asia. Since then, I've lived in China, Japan, and S.Korea. I've traveled extensively around the world, for short stints, and I have, now, a very good grasp of some other cultures. Being from "insular" Ireland, actually helped me to understand cultures such as China, or Japan.. because we had such a background of little actual cultural exposure. And to be honest, in spite of living/travelling to so many countries, I've yet to see a truly multicultural society, except, perhaps, that of Singapore.

And, from speaking to others, my experience isn't common. Oh, I've met many who did a year backpacking, but very few who have lived longer than three years in a completely different culture. Same with people I know who did volunteer work in India or Africa, they tended to stay a maximum of two years, and then returned to their home countries.

The point is that I've seen the multiculturalism that exists in Europe. There isn't any real interaction of culture, or push to integrate different cultures with each other. Posters here, refer to food, or music, but they're rather shallow expressions of other cultures.. and even then, most of what is being shared is western culture (America, France, Italy, Spain etc) rather than non-western cultures (Ethiopian, Iranian, etc).

The extent by which multiculturalism is shown to exist and be a success, is simply that people from other cultures exist in our country. Even worse, the pinnacle of multicultural success is that integration does not occur, and that these other cultural groups should retain their own cultural norms, over that of the host nation.

Which is why I find the whole area of multiculturalism to be a bit of a bad joke. It's such a weak effort, with little concern for any negatives, while embracing very superficial gains.

As for the thread, very few posters have made any kind of genuine effort to explain, and support the case of multiculturalism.. probably because the issue is so superficial, even in their own minds.