What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

breezy1985

Zookey123 wrote: »

Interesting I thought it was the big bad left that put nonsensical words into peoples mouths? I have already gone over all these issues and understand more than you think about the complexity that comes with immigration and especially integration. I have seen a lot worse than immigrants in Dublin believe me (do you care since they are white?). We live in a bubble? Why because we disagree with your viewpoint thus we must be either crazy, stupid or lazy right? No one is making society less white relax.

Dead right about Dublin and most other places too. I used to have this argument with racists in London who would say an area is bad or gone downhill because of black people. I would always point out that I grew up in a poor estate in a city that was almost 100% white and we can trash an area just as good as black people

Strumms

Every country should be of the ability to cap immigration.

Government is elected to serve the best interests of the public, the Irish public.

While everything should be done by every country to help and accommodate a sensible number of people seeking asylum or looking to immigrate .. this or any country is not able to be expanded, either physically in size or the general scope of its resources.

This country doesn’t have an invisible magic money tree.

Even if it had, its first responsibilities are to Irish citizens.

More people is a greater strain on resources and finances... the more people here especially those not making a contribution it’s meaning needing more....

Gardai.

Social welfare employees

Doctors

Nurses

Hospital beds

Health staff across the spectrum.

The constitution, Article 1....

“The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.”

That trumps to my mind, the EU, the bleeding hearts and give everything we have to everyone else loony sections of the extreme left.

The constitution enshrines the sovereignty, rights and wellbeing of the Irish people in this state. To enable that we simply cannot fail to be true to ourselves.

Wibbs

Tell me how wrote: »

Just take it as a sign of progress that the narrative has shifted to acknowledging that there are perfectly functioning multicultural societies.

Again point me to any "perfectly functioning multicultural society" where the darker your skin the more likely you are to find yourself in the lower socioeconomic scale.

Zookey123 wrote: »

Yeah as if the right don't do the exact same thing. It's an anonymous online forum what do you expect? I have seen very few posters actually show interest in a discussion which is not necessarily a debate (I have no interest in scoring points).

Find me one post on this thread from a "right winger" that has insulted other posters. Good luck and if you do I'll be able to quote dozens of direct insults from the "left" in this same thread. I count three who have been banned for it. Regardless of one's position on the subject to deny that is ridiculous.

The "right" as you label them, or more people with questions about this politic have posted plenty of direct points, examples and questions, which the "left" have avoided like the plague, or get shouty and insulting when they couldn't respond. Again I can give you plenty of examples. Hell I can post a dozen from just the last week.

Any evidence of this wild claim? I am a pessimist in the best of times but this statement takes the cake. Sounds like goal posts being shifted to suit a narrative.

Eh... How would one measure the positives for economics of multiculturalism in a non multicultural nation? In order to measure them they have to already exist. Otherwise it would be akin to measuring the effects on livestock of polar bear predation in Cavan.

Secondly the "diversity" melting pots of the world have had decades(some centuries) of interracial flashpoints caused by many factors, not least racism, but flashpoints they are. BLM is only the current one. This can be seen in places like the UK where the first immigrants from their former colonies while facing obvious racism tended to stay under the radar. For their own safety if nothing else. It's their kids and grandkids that know they've been sold a pup and who are most likely to understandably lash out about it.

You sure you don't want to add any more parameters? I don't think you're being specific enough. What exactly is you're point? That majority white nations are run by whites and will tend to have coloured folk in the lower tiers of society?

You're being wilfully obtuse or... well I don't know what. Those are pretty basic parameters for a start and describe European nations pretty well. Secondly you're avoiding the point that one failure of this "diversity" drive is an increase of a poor and welfare class based on skin colour. Yep, racism is a lot in play, but that's not going anywhere anytime soon and it's a feature of every melting pot out there. It's not just racism though, because the outliers of East Asians, Indians and others don't follow this trend.

But hey, pick any parameter you like from across the globe and show me a multicultural nation without these problems along ethnic and "race" and culture lines.

breezy1985

Strumms wrote: »

Every country should be of the ability to cap immigration.

Government is elected to serve the best interests of the public, the Irish public.

While everything should be done by every country to help and accommodate a sensible number of people seeking asylum or looking to immigrate .. this or any country is not able to be expanded, either physically in size or the general scope of its resources.

This country doesn’t have an invisible magic money tree.

Even if it had, its first responsibilities are to Irish citizens.

More people is a greater strain on resources and finances... the more people here especially those not making a contribution it’s meaning needing more....

Gardai.

Social welfare employees

Doctors

Nurses

Hospital beds

Health staff across the spectrum.

The constitution, Article 1....

“The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.”

That trumps to my mind, the EU, the bleeding hearts and give everything we have to everyone else loony sections of the extreme left.

The constitution enshrines the sovereignty, rights and wellbeing of the Irish people in this state. To enable that we simply cannot fail to be true to ourselves.

You keep talking about the left but they have never been in power in Ireland so how are they to blame for the problems you think we have?

What does being true to ourselves mean?
I'm Irish I love Ireland and want the best for it and I think the EU immigration policy has been good for it and we are in a much better place now than the 80s

Wibbs

Zookey123 wrote: »

Interesting I thought it was the big bad left that put nonsensical words into peoples mouths?

Hmmm... and then you type this:

Why because we disagree with your viewpoint thus we must be either crazy, stupid or lazy right? No one is making society less white relax.

Do you understand the meaning of irony, or self awareness. You very clearly just put words into that posters mouth? Words he never said.

Zookey123

Wibbs wrote: »

Hmmm... and then you type this:Do you understand the meaning of irony, or self awareness. You very clearly just put words into that posters mouth? Words he never said.

Would be a clever response if only it were true. I was very careful in my response try re reading it the poster clearly implies all of the above if you can't see that then you are the one being purposefully obtuse.

dominatinMC

breezy1985 wrote: »

You keep talking about the left but they have never been in power in Ireland so how are they to blame for the problems you think we have?

What does being true to ourselves mean?
I'm Irish I love Ireland and want the best for it and I think the EU immigration policy has been good for it and we are in a much better place now than the 80s

Simple question, which the previous poster kind of alluded to, but do you think the Irish government should prioritise the urgent needs (i.e. healthcare) of the Irish public right now? And by doing so, that means diverting funds, which would otherwise go to immigration, to the Irish public sector? Essentially, I'm asking you if you believe the government should look after it's own citizens first and foremost.

Wibbs

breezy1985 wrote: »

I'm Irish I love Ireland and want the best for it and I think the EU immigration policy has been good for it and we are in a much better place now than the 80s

Not a single person on this thread is against legal immigration from the rest of the EU. Or anywhere else for that matter. What people are against is harbouring the chancers that show up on boats across the Mediterranean and elsewhere "seeking asylum", or those in the past who showed up here with their waters breaking on the pier at Rosslare because of a wide open hole in our birthright laws, a hole that was closed by a referendum of the Irish electorate and by a bigger majority than any other referendum in the last couple of decades. A couple of political types have talked about reversing that clear and democratic vote, even though nearly 100% of people from those same origin nations that got their foot in the door of that old law that we are told we must regard as fully Irish are refused on the basis of being economic migrants and chancers. Even Leo Varadkar noted this, though of course only pointed to the White origin nations like Ukraine.

Wibbs

Zookey123 wrote: »

Would be a clever response if only it were true. I was very careful in my response try re reading it the poster clearly implies all of the above if you can't see that then you are the one being purposefully obtuse.

He described the "Left" in Sweden and Germany as "idiots" and the "left" living in a "bubble". If you gleaned "crazy, stupid, lazy" from that, you've some imagination. Maybe stupid at a push, but where in god's name you got crazy and lazy, well that's on you.

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

Yep you did you repeatedly mentioned how much we spend on immigrants unless I'm wrong and you think this a good thing.

And are you willing to admit that like the Irish the vast majority of immigrants in Ireland are hard working and contribute to society?

There is a glaring problem with your logic though. Economy and availability of employment. Even assuming that all migrants are hard working, there remains a need for there to be jobs available.

When the Irish went to America, Britain, etc they went to work in all manner of jobs because the economies were strong. Large economies which had a strong demand for construction, an established manufacturing base, and a large number of jobs available for those with low skills, or those lacking in education. They also tended to go to English speaking countries where there was no need to acquire an extra language for living/working.

With the migrants to Ireland, the situation is different. We don't have a manufacturing industry requiring low skilled workers, nor is the construction industry crying out for unskilled labor. Throughout the country, businesses that typically use low skilled labor are closing due to covid, but even before that, the native population was very capable of meeting the demand for workers. There wasn't a great shortage of workers, except due to seasonal positions, but even there, the numbers required was quite low.

The simple truth is that Ireland is a country that focused on technological development as a means of generating revenue, and due to it's links with the EU, most jobs require some kind of professional/technical qualifications to gain employment. While there are businesses out there which require low skilled labor, there isn't much actual growth in the economy for these kind of jobs... and even if there was, the wages paid for them won't provide much in the way of living, which makes them unsuitable for migrants who are lacking the supports that an Irish family can provide.

The truth is, with the exception of skilled migrants coming in as a specialised workforce, the average migrant (Refugee, asylum, economic) coming into Ireland is lacking in adequate skilled/education (I'm not posting all the links again), and often are missing a decent grasp of the English language. While some will have education from their own countries, the standard of that education is usually far lower than that of a European education, which excludes them from all manner of positions.

The problem with your logic is that it ignores the practical aspects of employment and the economy. Migrants who arrive and can't work need to be supported by the State. Migrants who manage to get low skilled work, still need support from the State due to the high costs of living in Ireland, and such work is notoriously unreliable.

To be fair to migrants coming into Ireland, and to provide them with the same standard of living as other Irish people, would require the up-skilling/re-education of arrivals. It would mean bringing their level of English up to a professional standard. All of which would require major investment, and more importantly, a long time before the migrant became able to work. To obtain a decent level of English alone would take years... then add in the Leaving certificate or University/technical qualifications, and you're looking at supporting migrants for a decade before they become qualified to work here... Assuming that there is still employment available, which there is no guarantee of, since we are entering a recession, and there's likely to be further recessions down the road considering the effects of China/US/EU relations on the world market.

So... it doesn't matter if all migrants are hard working. Even assuming that they are, as you said, there is still the need for employment, and the provision of a standard of living in a first world nation... essentially provided by the State, at a time when State revenues are decreasing, and National debt is rising.

Now, don't deflect, or dismiss this with a token sentence. Take a stand and argue your points.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Now, don't deflect, or dismiss this with a token sentence. Take a stand and argue your points.

Jokes aside it would make a nice change.

Strumms

breezy1985 wrote: »

You keep talking about the left but they have never been in power in Ireland so how are they to blame for the problems you think we have?

What does being true to ourselves mean?
I'm Irish I love Ireland and want the best for it and I think the EU immigration policy has been good for it and we are in a much better place now than the 80s

Of course they have been in power. Ok they have never had a Taoiseach, Taniste multiple of them, but over the last 30 or so years appropriately 33% of governments have included left wing politicians. More center left granted ie. labor, independents... etc..

Also yes, better than the 80’s ? You’d hope so ! :eek: I would not equate that being down to immigration though... but I’d be happy to listen to anything that might equate the rise of the Celtic Tiger and subsequent improvements in the economy, socially and life in general being due to immigration.

Zookey123

Zookey123 wrote: »

Litteraly said word for word in an earlier post which you and your fellow "comrades" clearly agreed with (i'm guessing that's the whole point of the like button).

I have called out multiple posters individually including you on numerous occasions now. I don't know how I could be more specific I literally opened my last comment with "hey klaz". You haven't shown me anything. All you have done so far is try create a box around me, perhaps have an actual discussion rather than a gotcha statement per reply?

Deflection overtime, and complete refusal to deal with my questions. I see no reason to continue with this. I've had enough with this type of posting 'style'.

breezy1985

Wibbs wrote: »

Not a single person on this thread is against legal immigration from the rest of the EU. Or anywhere else for that matter. What people are against is harbouring the chancers that show up on boats across the Mediterranean and elsewhere "seeking asylum", or those in the past who showed up here with their waters breaking on the pier at Rosslare because of a wide open hole in our birthright laws, a hole that was closed by a referendum of the Irish electorate and by a bigger majority than any other referendum in the last couple of decades. A couple of political types have talked about reversing that clear and democratic vote, even though nearly 100% of people from those same origin nations that got their foot in the door of that old law that we are told we must regard as fully Irish are refused on the basis of being economic migrants and chancers. Even Leo Varadkar noted this, though of course only pointed to the White origin nations like Ukraine.

Read the post I was replying to. He said every country should have controlled immigration and quoted the constitution as to how it trump's the EU. We have open borders with the EU and he is against uncontrolled immigration so he is against the EU immigration policy so please stop talking for all posters on here

breezy1985

dominatinMC wrote: »

Simple question, which the previous poster kind of alluded to, but do you think the Irish government should prioritise the urgent needs (i.e. healthcare) of the Irish public right now? And by doing so, that means diverting funds, which would otherwise go to immigration, to the Irish public sector? Essentially, I'm asking you if you believe the government should look after it's own citizens first and foremost.

I think the 2 are not linked which they are not. There is nothing in Irish law that says certain money can only be spent on direct provision or Irish in need you could do both for instance.

What is happening on this thread is Brexit politics. Of only we get rid of the foreigners we can put all this money into a homogeneous utopia.

The Irish poor and homeless were a thing long before refugees and if we sent all the refugees home they would still be a thing long after

Strumms

It’s not Irish poor and homeless vs those seeking asylum.

That money that is spend is still needed to expand rehabilitative healthcare treatments... hospital bed numbers and individuals to staff them, improvements in education infrastructure and opportunity for Irish and all taxpayers living in Ireland. Those ambitions help all of us. I want more investment in job creation... that money needs to come from somewhere.

Wibbs

breezy1985 wrote: »

Read the post I was replying to. He said every country should have controlled immigration and quoted the constitution as to how it trump's the EU. We have open borders with the EU and he is against uncontrolled immigration so he is against the EU immigration policy so please stop talking for all posters on here

EU immigration policy is controlled.

breezy1985 wrote: »

The Irish poor and homeless were a thing long before refugees and if we sent all the refugees home they would still be a thing long after

Indeed it would, so why do you want to import the potential for more? Same for adding to wider social problems and new ones because of ethnic divisions, which exist in every single multicultural society. This has never been explained by the pro multicultural side.

As for refugees. Again nobody or bloody few are against genuine refugees and genuine asylum seekers. Those are small enough in number. They are against chancers and against the same chancers staying here for years clogging up the courts and wasting taxpayers money, rather than being thrown out of the country in short order.

breezy1985

Strumms wrote: »

It’s not Irish poor and homeless vs those seeking asylum.

That money that is spend is still needed to expand rehabilitative healthcare treatments... hospital bed numbers and individuals to staff them, improvements in education infrastructure and opportunity for Irish and all taxpayers living in Ireland. Those ambitions help all of us. I want more investment in job creation... that money needs to come from somewhere.

But why from Asylum seekers?

This is Boris and his £300m for the NHS bus all over again

Strumms

breezy1985 wrote: »

But why from Asylum seekers?

This is Boris and his £300m for the NHS bus all over again

It’s not ‘from’ asylum seekers, it’s from the state coffers, our money, not theirs

I don’t either suggest banning asylum seekers, I simply suggest limiting successful applications.

breezy1985

Wibbs wrote: »

EU immigration policy is controlled.

Indeed it would, so why do you want to import the potential for more? Same for adding to wider social problems and new ones because of ethnic divisions, which exist in every single multicultural society. This has never been explained by the pro multicultural side.

As for refugees. Again nobody or bloody few are against genuine refugees and genuine asylum seekers. Those are small enough in number. They are against chancers and against the same chancers staying here for years clogging up the courts and wasting taxpayers money, rather than being thrown out of the country in short order.

How do you decide which are the genuine asylum seekers and which are the chancers without courts and govt bodies?

How is EU immigration policy controlled in the way the other poster talked about. He said every country?

Justin Credible Darts

Strumms wrote: »

I don’t either suggest banning asylum seekers, I simply suggest limiting successful applications.

Exactly.


Also refuse entry to criminals, and those that break the law be deported after their sentence.

breezy1985

Strumms wrote: »

It’s not ‘from’ asylum seekers, it’s from the state coffers, our money, not theirs

I don’t either suggest banning asylum seekers, I simply suggest limiting successful applications.

But you suggest that to help pay for other things that this is the area it must be taken from. Because they are not Irish tax payers it seems?

But how can the asylum system work if only Irish taxpayers get anything and how do you limit numbers? Just say sorry you have a legit reason and will die if you go home but we have 10 already so good luck. Send em packing like a pregnant Mary in Bethlehem

Wibbs

breezy1985 wrote: »

How do you decide which are the genuine asylum seekers and which are the chancers without courts and govt bodies?

It doesn't take years in DP to decide it. How many solicitors and NGO's are buttering their bread from this? We've too damned many NGO's in this nation as it is feeding from the same trough. How many have been thrown out of the country to date?

breezy1985 wrote: »

This is Boris and his £300m for the NHS bus all over again

Only the main difference between that moron Boris and his claims is the figures posted are accurate.

breezy1985

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

Exactly.


and those that break the law be deported after their sentence.

This does happen depending on which countries Ireland has mutual agreements with.

Ide say there's more Irish in foreign jail's than foreigners in our so ide be careful what you wish for

Justin Credible Darts

breezy1985 wrote: »

This does happen depending on which countries Ireland has mutual agreements with.

Ide say there's more Irish in foreign jail's than foreigners in our so ide be careful what you wish for

and those countries should deport them after their sentence......I am consistent that way,


we have enough of our own criminals without importing others

breezy1985

Wibbs wrote: »

It doesn't take years in DP to decide it. How many solicitors and NGO's are buttering their bread from this? We've too damned many NGO's in this nation as it is feeding from the same trough. How many have been thrown out of the country to date?

Only the main difference between that moron Boris and his claims is the figures posted are accurate.

I agree it shouldn't take years and DP needs sorting out but not abolition.

No but like Boris bus it's anti foreigner policy wrapped up in a "won't somebody please think of the children" arguement and I bet most of the bleeding heart rightys on here won't care if any of that money ever makes it to the Irish poor once the immigrants are gone

Wibbs

breezy1985 wrote: »

But you suggest that to help pay for other things that this is the area it must be taken from. Because they are not Irish tax payers it seems?

Well that would be a good enough reason to kick off with. The Irish taxpayer already contributes hundreds of millions on overseas aid, even during the height of the recession after the celtic tiger died and we've spent hundreds of millions on migrants. Money that could have been more efficiently spent not least on genuine refugees to speed up the process and let the genuine cases in and throw the chancers out.

But how can the asylum system work if only Irish taxpayers get anything and how do you limit numbers? Just say sorry you have a legit reason and will die if you go home but we have 10 already so good luck. Send em packing like a pregnant Mary in Bethlehem

Well under the old jus soli loophole Mary would have been fine and would have got residency and a leg up, but thankfully we closed that in line with every other European nation. Mary would have actually travelled a shorter distance than most to reach the first safe country... If I recall correctly when she was a refugee she went to Egypt. But digging the old appeal to emotionals and charity stuff.

And "legit reasons" back in the loophole days appear to have been vanishingly few and far between, given nearly 100% of the current crop from the same places are refused. Maybe they magically became more chancer like over time.

breezy1985

Wibbs wrote: »

Well that would be a good enough reason to kick off with. The Irish taxpayer already contributes hundreds of millions on overseas aid, even during the height of the recession after the celtic tiger died and we've spent hundreds of millions on migrants. Money that could have been more efficiently spent not least on genuine refugees to speed up the process and let the genuine cases in and throw the chancers out.
.

I know you think you speak for all Irish tax payers but I am happy my money goes to foreign aid to help the truly destitute in this world rather than the skangers that have been wrecking my home town for my whole life. It's not to direct provision I look when I want to see chancers who don't pay any tax in this country. As for infrastructure this country had a chance to build loads but we kept voting for Bertie and all we got was more private buildings higher insurance costs and higher banking charges while the rich got richer which is another reason I think picking on the asylum seekers as the problem is crap

Zookey123

Wibbs wrote: »

He described the "Left" in Sweden and Germany as "idiots" and the "left" living in a "bubble". If you gleaned "crazy, stupid, lazy" from that, you've some imagination. Maybe stupid at a push, but where in god's name you got crazy and lazy, well that's on you.

The comment I was referring to is " I think a lot on the Left live in a bubble and ignore all the socio- enconomic problems that come with multiculturalism so they can feel good about themselves ". Ignoring the glaring spelling errors, one of the three factors must apply for this type of critical thinking or am I wrong?

Wibbs

breezy1985 wrote: »

No but like Boris bus it's anti foreigner policy wrapped up in a "won't somebody please think of the children" arguement and I bet most of the bleeding heart rightys on here won't care if any of that money ever makes it to the Irish poor once the immigrants are gone

Supposition on your part. Never mind that again nobody including that poster has said - he'll correct me if I'm incorrect on that - they are against the wider area of legal migration into this country. That includes genuine refugees and people who apply and are successful in securing work here.