What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

10000maniacs

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ireland-can-and-must-do-much-better-for-asylum-seekers-1.4387238

This author seems quite deluded to put it mildly.



Yes but does that equate to "come to Ireland, here's a house and 20 grand to fight multiple judicial cases on a just in case basis"?

It strikes me our country is already highly vulnerable to being abused as it is.

We are definitely viewed as a soft touch. Look at this case. Where better to get the waterworks going than in Ireland?
Her psychological condition can only be treated in Ireland. Yeah right.

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/uknews/con-woman-in-court-battle-to-stay-in-ireland/ar-BB1ahKAR?ocid=msedgdhp

Geuze

Wibbs wrote: »

And has an extremely short memory. As far as refugees go we've never been particularly welcoming at all. Pre WW2 we didn't take in too many Jews fleeing Hitler, though Ireland's record in general as far as Jews goes is pretty good compared to the rest of Europe. .

Perhaps, I won't comment on the past.

Currently, we are accepting 6,900 refugees, which seems a good amount to me.

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/93410/d5f81351-2c06-4d50-bfe7-beaa74203a80.pdf

After 3 months in the reception centre, applicants should move to own-door accommodation under the responsibility of the local authorities. To enable applicants to live in the community, the weekly allowances currently paid should be replaced by a housing allowance modelled on the Homeless Housing Assistance Payment (HHAP) and access to social assistance payments equivalent to the range of income supports (e.g. Supplementary Welfare Allowance, Child Benefit) available to Irish citizens. These should be reviewed in line with reviews of all social welfare payments.
• If applicants receive a residency permission, they should continue to benefit from certain support measures for up to 18 months after the permission is obtained.
• If an application is refused or if residency permission is not granted, and after all avenues of appeal have been exhausted, the unsuccessful applicants should be given up to 6 months to organise their departure and should continue to receive the housing and supplementary welfare allowances, child benefit, etc., during that time.
• “Aged out” unaccompanied minors should remain the responsibility of Tusla, retaining their supports until their applications for asylum have reached a conclusion.
• Tusla social workers assigned to unaccompanied minors should be legally obliged to seek prior legal advice on a protection application as soon as possible after the minor becomes the responsibility of Tusla, and before completing and lodging the application.
• Until the new, permanent system enters fully into force in mid-2023 the Advisory Group recommends that the Health Information and Quality Authority (HIQA) be given the responsibility to inspect the existing accommodation centres and enforce the standards from January 2021.
• Unsuccessful applicants should be given a reasonable time to organise their voluntary return. The current 5-day period for deciding whether to accept voluntary return should be extended to 30 days and children and students should be allowed to finish the school year before departure.
• The State should develop a strategy and, if necessary, enact legislation for dealing with unsuccessful applicants who are deemed “non-returnable”.12

I haven't read it all yet (saving the financing part for later when I'm clear headed) but, good lord, they're generous in what they're expecting to provide. With a recession coming up.

In any case, I'm seeing a lot of power being given to the NGO's, with calls for new legislation to be introduced to further increase the rights of asylum seekers, and refugees regardless of whether their claim is successful or not.

Basically, it read well... and it's going to totally screw any chance of rolling back and being harder with claims in the future by formally establishing a system that favors the acceptance of claims. Oh, sure, there's many references to the denial of applications, but there's many more about improving their application chances too.

he financial supports given to those who choose voluntary return to their countries of origin should be doubled

Seriously? Yup. This is really going to set up Ireland as a desirable destination for people to head towards. Get an education, be supported while you wait (comparable with full Irish citizens on welfare), and also get paid well to return to your country.

A one-off case-processing approach should be set up to reduce the current backlog of cases. A simplified, case by case procedure should apply to anyone who has been more than two years in the system by the end of 2020. After security vetting, this cohort should be given leave to remain for 5 years without prejudice to their application for protection. The aim should be to develop a procedure which encourages eligible applicants to avail of this process.

In reducing the backlog special attention should be given to the case of unaccompanied minors who should all receive leave to remain for 5 years without prejudice to their applications for protection. • All backlog cases, including those covered by the case-processing approach, should be processed by a temporary, dedicated multi-agency task force having due regard to the relevant statutory remits of the various agencies concerned. The aim should be to finalise all these cases by the end of 2022 at the latest.

Bloody hell.

Kivaro

Geuze wrote: »

Perhaps, I won't comment on the past.

Currently, we are accepting 6,900 refugees, which seems a good amount to me.

It is too many.
It depends on your situation in life on how one sees the asylum situation in Ireland e.g. the amount of tax that you pay. If it was the case that the statistics proved that genuine asylum seekers were coming to Ireland and getting refuge, and then starting employment in order to contribute to our society, then there would be much stronger support from the general public.

However, I have yet to meet a man or woman in this country who are struggling with mortgage/rent/childcare costs/healthcare costs/insurance costs/long commutes to work etc. etc., that agree we should be supporting those who come here for a lifetime of welfare and all the entitlements associated with that. Many non-working Africans living in Ireland have a much better quality of life and more modern houses than many working Irish. That is simply not fair.

It's an interesting read. I must admit that there was quite a bit that I didn't fully understand, and some of the assumptions made about housing (and the supports provided) seemed overly optimistic.

Kivaro

Kivaro wrote: »

It is too many.
It depends on your situation in life on how one sees the asylum situation in Ireland e.g. the amount of tax that you pay. If it was the case that the statistics proved that genuine asylum seekers were coming to Ireland and getting refuge, and then starting employment in order to contribute to our society, then there would be much stronger support from the general public.

However, I have yet to meet a man or woman in this country who are struggling with mortgage/rent/childcare costs/healthcare costs/insurance costs/long commutes to work etc. etc., that agree we should be supporting those who come here for a lifetime of welfare and all the entitlements associated with that. Many non-working Africans living in Ireland have a much better quality of life and more modern houses than many working Irish. That is simply not fair.

Pretty much. We need to get our own house in order, being able to provide for vulnerable Irish people, and perhaps more importantly, start lowering the cost of living in this country so that normal people can live well here. I know too many people who have decent jobs and yet they're struggling... It shouldn't be this way. The cost of living in Ireland shouldn't be this high, while the taxpayer is forking out for this kind of expenditure.

The priorities of the government seem totally out of order.

Hamachi

Deleted User wrote: »

It's an interesting read. I must admit that there was quite a bit that I didn't fully understand, and some of the assumptions made about housing (and the supports provided) seemed overly optimistic.

Realistically, what are the chances that the recommendations in this report will actually be implemented?

It reads like an aspirational wish list compiled by an utterly clueless, left-leaning university student. Surely the government aren't taking this seriously, given that we are facing an almost bottomless financial hole for the next decade?

My gut tells me that sanity will prevail, when confronted with the reality of acute financial constraints. Hopefully, it's quietly shelved over time. As for the NGO sector, it appears that their MO is to shaft native Irish people to the greatest extent possible. It's incredibly frustrating that we are continually stabbed in the back by this parasitical bunch of anonymous, unelected no-marks.

Deshawn

Own door accommodation paid via HAP and full social welfare rights.
Housing for sale stock at the lowest level for 14 years
Inevitable post Brexit increase of applicants who decide to come here instead of a closed border UK.

What a time to be alive in Ireland.

I hope they come in their droves and completely overwhelm the system. Tens of thousands a year at least.

Hamachi

Hamachi wrote: »

Realistically, what are the chances that the recommendations in this report will actually be implemented?

It reads like an aspirational wish list compiled by an utterly clueless, left-leaning university student. Surely the government aren't taking this seriously, given that we are facing an almost bottomless financial hole for the next decade?

My gut tells me that sanity will prevail, when confronted with the reality of acute financial constraints. Hopefully, it's quietly shelved over time. As for the NGO sector, it appears that their MO is to shaft native Irish people to the greatest extent possible. It's incredibly frustrating that we are continually stabbed in the back by this parasitical bunch of anonymous, unelected no-marks.

Maybe, but since they're promising that implementation and running of the new system will cheaper than the current DP costs, I wouldn't be too surprised if it's slipped in somewhat quietly. The problem is that they haven't commissioned a pile of other reports, and from what I've seen this is the only suggestion around right now... considering the need to find some resolution to all the outcry over DP (due to RTE and other media), we might find them accepting it because there are no other options presented.

I have extremely little confidence in our current government/politicians to think long term, and I suspect most of them would approve it if their batch of "expert" advisors recommend it. After all, they're never going to be held responsible if it's all crap, anyway.

statesaver

Geuze wrote: »

Perhaps, I won't comment on the past.

Currently, we are accepting 6,900 refugees, which seems a good amount to me.

That's a lot of houses to find out of thin air and what will be in the middle of an almighty recession.

KevRossi

MidlanderMan wrote: »

The fact that on the same stree in Athlone I can get authentic thai food for lunch and fantastic lebanese food for dinner and then walk 200 metres and get a Byriani the next day is amazing. Or that within spitting distace of eachother I can get brilliant Japanese food in a tiny cafe and then traditional Xi'anese hand pulled Biang Biang noodles in Galway. Or within 30 seconds of eachother on Capel Street in dublin I can get Ramen, Pho, or Bibimbap.

Beats the **** out of the bad Italian and Chinese food we grew up withm that's for sure.

I don't think too many people have issues with someone coming over here, setting up their own business legally, paying taxes and employing people. They are more than welcome here if they do that IMO.

I've no issue with someone coming here and finding gainful employment in a company based here, as long as they are here legally and again, are paying taxes etc.

It's the lying freeloaders that people do not want. Plenty of those here claiming asylum fall into that category.

jay0109

Hamachi wrote: »

Realistically, what are the chances that the recommendations in this report will actually be implemented?

It reads like an aspirational wish list compiled by an utterly clueless, left-leaning university student. Surely the government aren't taking this seriously, given that we are facing an almost bottomless financial hole for the next decade?

My gut tells me that sanity will prevail, when confronted with the reality of acute financial constraints. Hopefully, it's quietly shelved over time. As for the NGO sector, it appears that their MO is to shaft native Irish people to the greatest extent possible. It's incredibly frustrating that we are continually stabbed in the back by this parasitical bunch of anonymous, unelected no-marks.

The Greens will push hard to implement this and its their man who's now responsible for DP.
I'm very afraid this will be implemented and worn as a badge of honour for decades after by The Greens.

KevRossi

jay0109 wrote: »

The Greens will push hard to implement this and its their man who's now responsible for DP.
I'm very afraid this will be implemented and worn as a badge of honour for decades after by The Greens.

And what happens if they can't get housing for them after 3 months? It will, after all be their legal right to be housed.

Do they sue the government (i.e. the taxpayer)?

Do they have the right to keep refusing houses until they get one in an area that they want?

Are they going to be limited to the 'cheaper' areas of the country, or will the residents of the leafier suburbs get to have them as neighbours rather than having them as cheap cleaners, child minders and waiting staff?

KevRossi

KevRossi wrote: »

And what happens if they can't get housing for them after 3 months? It will, after all be their legal right to be housed.

Do they sue the government (i.e. the taxpayer)?

Do they have the right to keep refusing houses until they get one in an area that they want?

Are they going to be limited to the 'cheaper' areas of the country, or will the residents of the leafier suburbs get to have them as neighbours rather than having them as cheap cleaners, child minders and waiting staff?

The plan is supposedly for them to be housed in the cities where there are employment opportunities and better access to education (rather than the countryside or medium sized towns). So.. they'll be plonked into the main population centers, and since they're usually the places most in demand for property... I dunno. I expect Irish people will be put on the back burner in favor of asylum/refugee needs.

As for housing needs, the Day report sourced government owned properties as being enough for the existing population of refugees, and more besides. The government still controls quite a few properties left over from our last recession, and they can be converted to service their needs. At least until the need for own-door properties is an immediate concern.

imme

Deshawn wrote: »

Own door accommodation paid via HAP and full social welfare rights.
Housing for sale stock at the lowest level for 14 years
Inevitable post Brexit increase of applicants who decide to come here instead of a closed border UK.

What a time to be alive in Ireland.

I hope they come in their droves and completely overwhelm the system. Tens of thousands a year at least.

The responsibility will fall to local authorities to house applicants after an initial short period in state provided accommodation.

Could applicants be housed in boarded up local authority housing, Darndale, Mulhuddart and Tallaght might come to the rescue!

Will Ireland be able to attract people of the calibre of this 'individual'

https://www.herald.ie/news/courts/man-is-accused-of-running-six-brothels-from-flats-in-dublin-39648937.html

Again, well done Ireland. :rolleyes:

imme

MidlanderMan wrote: »

The fact that on the same stree in Athlone I can get authentic thai food for lunch and fantastic lebanese food for dinner and then walk 200 metres and get a Byriani the next day is amazing. Or that within spitting distace of eachother I can get brilliant Japanese food in a tiny cafe and then traditional Xi'anese hand pulled Biang Biang noodles in Galway. Or within 30 seconds of eachother on Capel Street in dublin I can get Ramen, Pho, or Bibimbap.

Beats the **** out of the bad Italian and Chinese food we grew up withm that's for sure.

Multi culturalism is a variety of food made by minimum wage employees by people who will come to resent their not so shiny new life in Ireland.

Bring on the second generation, because they will really love Ireland.

imme

imme wrote: »

Bring on the second generation, because they will really love Ireland.

Except the studies done by the EU commission, (and other independent research groups) show otherwise. Second generation individuals are likely to feel caught between cultural groups where they feel that they don't belong to either. While they will likely have holidays in their parents original homeland, such holidays will simply reinforce the impression that they don't belong, due to the stark differences not just in culture/values absorbed, but also the perception of people towards those of first world nations. And then, when these 2nd gen look at their own experience of being Irish or European, they'll often feel that they have a shallow connection, especially if they're of a different color, in which case, they report feeling 'tolerated' rather than accepted by natives. (regardless of whether it's true or not, that's apparently how they feel on the matter)

Across Europe, the rise in social unrest/instability has often been traced back to 2nd generation people who lash out at the existing system because they don't feel themselves to be part of it. It's why there's some who turn to the extreme aspects of Islam, and become terrorists, because it's through the extremism of religion or politics, that they feel accepted by a group.

While many 2nd Gen do lead productive and lawabiding lives, there are still serious problems with depression, anger, etc due to the duality of their lives. There are no easy answers... It's one of the reasons I keep saying that we should be encouraging immigration of Europeans, or other western type groups, because there is a far lesser difference in culture, and therefore actual integration is far more likely to be successful. They're simply accepted far more easily within a western society, especially one with a predominately white population.

imme

Deleted User wrote: »

Except the studies done by the EU commission, (and other independent research groups) show otherwise. Second generation individuals are likely to feel caught between cultural groups where they feel that they don't belong to either. While they will likely have holidays in their parents original homeland, such holidays will simply reinforce the impression that they don't belong, due to the stark differences not just in culture/values absorbed, but also the perception of people towards those of first world nations. And then, when these 2nd gen look at their own experience of being Irish or European, they'll often feel that they have a shallow connection, especially if they're of a different color, in which case, they report feeling 'tolerated' rather than accepted by natives. (regardless of whether it's true or not, that's apparently how they feel on the matter)

Across Europe, the rise in social unrest/instability has often been traced back to 2nd generation people who lash out at the existing system because they don't feel themselves to be part of it. It's why there's some who turn to the extreme aspects of Islam, and become terrorists, because it's through the extremism of religion or politics, that they feel accepted by a group.

While many 2nd Gen do lead productive and lawabiding lives, there are still serious problems with depression, anger, etc due to the duality of their lives. There are no easy answers... It's one of the reasons I keep saying that we should be encouraging immigration of Europeans, or other western type groups, because there is a far lesser difference in culture, and therefore actual integration is far more likely to be successful. They're simply accepted far more easily within a western society, especially one with a predominately white population.

I was being facetious.

I have experienced this in continental Europe, it has been portrayed in film.
2nd generation was a fertile recruiting space for Isis volunteers.

Cordell

The problem with the 2nd generation is mostly due to 1st generation rearing them not in the new country, but in an island of the old one, because 1st generation makes zero effort to integrate.

jmreire

imme wrote: »

I was being facetious.

I have experienced this in continental Europe, it has been portrayed in film.
2nd generation was a fertile recruiting space for Isis volunteers.

Yes, and the first generation, remembering very well what they have left behind, and with absolutely no wish to be sent back, will behave themselves, or at least keep their head's down...on the other hand, the 2nd generation, being born in the host Country, are not in any fear of being deported, and do not have any idea about the conditions their parents left behind, have no restraints on their behaviour. And as already pointed out, will feel alienated and ready to join any any grouping to feel they are part of something.

Geuze

KevRossi wrote: »

I don't think too many people have issues with someone coming over here, setting up their own business legally, paying taxes and employing people. They are more than welcome here if they do that IMO.

I do have issues with non-EU immigrants.

No need for them.

We have hundreds of thousands unemployed, we have just experienced a savage recession.

With massive unemployment, and 15m+ unemployed across the EU, why would we need workers from outside the EU?

imme

imme wrote: »

I was being facetious.

I have experienced this in continental Europe, it has been portrayed in film.
2nd generation was a fertile recruiting space for Isis volunteers.

Perhaps use a smiley face next time? I'll admit that my ability to detect sarcasm or such from a piece of text has declined considerably over the last two years.

Kivaro

Deleted User wrote: »

Pretty much. We need to get our own house in order, being able to provide for vulnerable Irish people, and perhaps more importantly, start lowering the cost of living in this country so that normal people can live well here. I know too many people who have decent jobs and yet they're struggling... It shouldn't be this way. The cost of living in Ireland shouldn't be this high, while the taxpayer is forking out for this kind of expenditure.

The priorities of the government seem totally out of order.

This is what gets me.
When we had a few extra bob over the last couple of decades, why did they not improve the quality of lives in Ireland ..... for the people already living here? Provide the enviable services to us that we see elsewhere in Europe and other first-world countries. But no, they had to spend the money on virtuous projects and increased foreign aid contributions.

And now, we are poor again, or will be shortly, and it will be up to the same working/contributing people in Ireland to get us out of this massive debt hole. They will be shouldering the burden of government fiscal mismanagement for many years to come.

shootermacg

Kivaro wrote: »

This is what gets me.
When we had a few extra bob over the last couple of decades, why did they not improve the quality of lives in Ireland ..... for the people already living here? Provide the enviable services to us that we see elsewhere in Europe and other first-world countries. But no, they had to spend the money on virtuous projects and increased foreign aid contributions.

And now, we are poor again, or will be shortly, and it will be up to the same working/contributing people in Ireland to get us out of this massive debt hole. They will be shouldering the burden of government fiscal mismanagement for many years to come.

The only real way to increase the standard of living in Ireland is to increase the population.

Patrick2010

shootermacg wrote: »

The only real way to increase the standard of living in Ireland is to increase the population.

By opening the doors to third world immigrants and supplying them with accomodation,health care, education at the cost of the Irish taxpayer?
How exactly does that work?
Britain is much bigger than us, have they a higher standard of living?

Posh Dave

Patrick2010 wrote: »

By opening the doors to third world immigrants and supplying them with accomodation,health care, education at the cost of the Irish taxpayer?
How exactly does that work?
Britain is much bigger than us, have they a higher standard of living?

Lads what we don’t need is more African taxi drivers, Turkish barbers, and Indian delivery men. Why can’t we have a more targeted immigration program like Australia who would not accept this lot. If my opinion is racist so be there t.

Deshawn

Patrick2010 wrote: »

By opening the doors to third world immigrants and supplying them with accomodation,health care, education at the cost of the Irish taxpayer?
How exactly does that work?
Britain is much bigger than us, have they a higher standard of living?

48k immigrants/refugees/asylum seekers/spoofers/spongers living in UK hotels on the tax payers dime

stefanovich

Limited and controlled legal immigration is great. We should, however, be trying to ensure that youngsters are educated in fields where we are short on workers too.

People should also be integrated into society. I'm not a fan of multiculturalism as it breeds disunity and lack of common purpose.

People should come here with the intention of becoming Irish.

Posh Dave

stefanovich wrote: »

Limited and controlled legal immigration is great. We should, however, be trying to ensure that youngsters are educated in fields where we are short on workers too.

People should also be integrated into society. I'm not a fan of multiculturalism as it breeds disunity and lack of common purpose.

People should come here with the intention of becoming Irish.

That’s the problem a lot of them have no intention to integrate

Sand

Posh Dave wrote: »

That’s the problem a lot of them have no intention to integrate

In fairness, they cant integrate. The Irish are a European, broadly Christian people. How are non-Europeans supposed to integrate? By abandoning their own culture and beliefs? That's never going to happen.

Countless countries have attempted multiculturalism under the guise of imperialism, or communism or neoliberalism and all have failed. It can be temporarily held together by top down tyranny as practiced by the imperialists, communists and increasingly neo-liberalism as in the UK. But it has always ended up with the country splitting apart into much more segregated successor states

The failure of multiculturalism is not that its a good idea poorly executed, or that it could work with the right migrants, or it could work if they arrived legally, or it could work under some imagined set of conditions. It's just a bad idea.