What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

TomTomTim

TomTomTim wrote: »

You can thank Reddit and Twitter for this nonsense. We honestly might as well be Americans at this stage.

Nah. Irish common sense is still very much alive and you can see it around easily enough. It's just the influence of people who spend far too much time on social media, and covid/BLM has encouraged that group to be more vocal than before.

I'm feeling quite optimistic these days TBH. Previously when I returned to Ireland, I saw a spreading of this American nonsense, but this year, I've seen far more resistance to it. So.. I'm hopeful that we're turning a corner, and starting to push back.

The important part is not to assign too much importance/relevance to online forums or social media.

irishblessing

Mules wrote: »

This is an Irish forum, you sound ridiculous talking about white males, like someone in an American university sociology department.

Oooh! Please don't show us educated Irish people up. It's an education thing, not an American thing. Sad. But that's the Irish way, isn't it? Often soo begrudging and bitter towards those who "bettered" themselves with an education and of course, our love/hate affair with America. The worst thing is for an Irish person to have "notions." So typical and old.

Hamachi

irishblessing wrote: »

You're trying to reduce the real experience of people here to a narrative, Wibbs, and that just isn't going to fly. But it is pretty fly (and typical) for a male white guy, lol.

I’m glad you crack yourself up. It’s about as funny as your ‘cliff notes’ gag. Chris Rock has nothing to fear...

You’ve lost all credibility when your first port of call is to dismiss the opinions of others because they’re ‘white males’. That might fly in whatever sociology department you’re affiliated with. Fortunately, it’s not a tactic that has any credibility in the real world.

newhouse87

irishblessing wrote: »

Overly verbose, word salad, verbal diarrhoea; take your pick. In effort to try and overwhelm the person on the other side of the debate with sheer content.

I rest my case.

Oh and you mention skills? Pray tell how you acquired those skills and were able to enter a workforce at all- the support and infrastructure was there so you are privileged and then compare that to others' plight when in fact you were born on third base thinking you hit a homerun.

I bet you didn't read the article I posted. It's pretty clear you still do not understand the power structures of racism and why reverse racism is not a real thing. It's not an American thing or experience (very odd point to try and make), it's a western world thing and also, my article was from the UK.

if a black person beats up a white person because they are white, is this a racist attack as would be labeled correctly if a white person attacked a black person beacause of their skin colour.

irishblessing

Hamachi wrote: »

I’m glad you crack yourself up. It’s about as funny as your ‘cliff notes’ gag. Chris Rock has nothing to fear...

You’ve lost all credibility when your first port of call is to dismiss the opinions of others because they’re ‘white males’. That might fly in whatever sociology department you’re affiliated with. Fortunately, it’s not a tactic that has any credibility in the real world.

Oh no, I lost credibility with Hamachi! What shall I do! :pac:

Lot of angry, scared people on this thread.

TomTomTim

irishblessing wrote: »

Overly verbose, word salad, verbal diarrhoea; take your pick. In effort to try and overwhelm the person on the other side of the debate with sheer content.

I rest my case.

Oh and you mention skills? Pray tell how you acquired those skills and were able to enter a workforce at all- the support and infrastructure was there so you are privileged and then compare that to others' plight when in fact you were born on third base thinking you hit a homerun.

I bet you didn't read the article I posted. It's pretty clear you still do not understand the power structures of racism and why reverse racism is not a real thing. It's not an American thing or experience (very odd point to try and make), it's a western world thing and also, my article was from the UK.

If you think racism is a one way street, then you simply have no credibility. It's outright ridiculous that such an absurdity has been normalized in the progressive mind. It does though show the lengths you types are willing to go to, to ignore racism from minorities.

irishblessing

irishblessing wrote: »

Overly verbose, word salad, verbal diarrhoea; take your pick. In effort to try and overwhelm the person on the other side of the debate with sheer content.

I rest my case.

Actually, I assumed (wrongly) that you were inclined to engage in a debate, and to treat others with a modicum of respect. :rolleyes:

And my English is damn good. Oh, it's not perfect since I'm typing informally, but it's organised and formatted to present my points in a logical manner.

Oh and you mention skills? Pray tell how you acquired those skills and were able to enter a workforce at all- the support and infrastructure was there so you are privileged and then compare that to others' plight when in fact you were born on third base thinking you hit a homerun.

I get the feeling that you completely skipped over my original post about the factors that drive Black people to the bottom of economic systems. Of course, I have an education that is superior to theirs. Probably, you do too.

I bet you didn't read the article I posted. It's pretty clear you still do not understand the power structures of racism and why reverse racism is not a real thing. It's not an American thing or experience (very odd point to try and make), it's a western world thing and also, my article was from the UK.

I did read it. You keep making bets/assumptions based on thin air.

Now... rather than dismiss and deflect.. perhaps you might actually defend and debate your points? Cause so far, all you've done is throw out your opinions, expect them to be accepted, and get annoyed when others disagree with them. Just as you've failed to actually counter any of the points I've made, except to tell me that I'm "wrong".

irishblessing

newhouse87 wrote: »

if a black person beats up a white person because they are white, is this a racist attack as would be labeled correctly if a white person attacked a black person beacause of their skin colour.

That sounds like assault first of all, because of racial prejudice.
If the white person beats up the black person because they hate the colour of there skin, then in the euro centric western world, that is racism. There are far more consequences in those society's for a black person in that scenario than the white person.

How about read the article I posted and then see if you can answer your own question! It actually explains this. Give it a go...

Hamachi

irishblessing wrote: »

Oh no, I lost credibility with Hamachi! What shall I do! :pac:

Lot of angry, scared people on this thread.

Comedy isn’t your forte sweetheart.

Maybe try argue your point without branding people as right wing or accusing others of being ‘triggered’ or having ‘a lack of empathy’.

Any chance of that irishblessing?

enricoh

TomTomTim wrote: »

As always, self awareness level: zero

More fluff, zero facts- basically we are all gods children n take everyone in. Pass the spliff there man!

irishblessing

irishblessing wrote: »

Was that you in the far right protests here? I am getting that vibe.

/sigh.

newhouse87

irishblessing wrote: »

That sounds like assault first of all, because of racial prejudice.
If the white person beats up the black person because they hate the colour of there skin, then in the euro centric western world, that is racism. There are far more consequences in those society's for a black person in that scenario than the white person.

How about read the article I posted and then see if you can answer your own question! It actually explains this. Give it a go...

ha brilliant response, hope you kept a straight face typing that. If it happened in nigeria that the white person was beat up by a black person is that racism?

irishblessing

Deleted User wrote: »

I get the feeling that you completely skipped over my original post about the factors that drive Black people to the bottom of economic systems. Of course, I have an education that is superior to theirs. Probably, you do too.

Nice. You're the one who mentioned all your education, skills and travels without any self awareness of the fact that you were able to do all that because essentially you were supported to do so.

And yes, I may have an education that is "superior" but I am aware of how privileged I am to have been able to do so. My life hasn't always been easy, but I can admit to the privileges I have had and not look down my nose at others for not being able to achieve the same when they're not even able to play the game let alone be born on 3rd base.

Can you post a succinct list of your factors that drive black people down to the bottom of economic systems and also can you please relate that to the discussion of your views on multiculturalism here in Ireland.

irishblessing

newhouse87 wrote: »

ha brilliant response, hope you kept a straight face typing that. If it happened in nigeria that the white person was beat up by a black person is that racism?

Ooh, another question without informing or educating your own self! Well let's see here, is Nigeria a euro centric, white dominant western country?

Wibbs

irishblessing wrote: »

You're trying to reduce the real experience of people here to a narrative, Wibbs, and that just isn't going to fly. But it is pretty fly (and typical) for a male white guy, lol.

Well the "male white guy" is the top of the tree for the oppressor role so... I'm not reducing anybody's experience, I am pointing out the narratives that are usually wheeled out and the difference is I can demonstrate them.

You and klaz make up for a lack of truth by being overly and unnecessarily verbose.

At the end of the day you want an all white Ireland because anything else scares you. Identity politics = yourself. It's also handy as a way to frame, dismiss and silence questions, especially clear in the tactic to be overly verbose with word salad so that what, it's overwhelming for the person on the other side of the debate and will maybe just give up? It's a pattern here going back 248 pages.

And you're avoiding directly responding to the points like the plague. That's the problem. If a position is so demonstrably obvious, correct, advantageous and the Truth(tm), no amount of "word salad" from an opposing side can hope to deny it.

So you admit to being combative and dismissive yourself... yeah, it's obvious.

Point missed entirely.

Out of interest, could you list the things that could have been handled better that would change your mind on multiculturalism? And who's failings is it down to, government, the Irish or refugees/immigrants?

While we could go back and forth on the failings of one group or other, I would say the problem is the concept of modern multiculturalism is itself fatally flawed. If it weren't then we could point to such a society somewhere where it works, where the usual patterns aren't repeated and the fact is we can't. Why? Because the fundamental(and understandable from a genuine charitable point of view) thing that the believers in multiculturalism fail to take into account is human nature and how little that has changed throughout human history.

You talk about lists of positives. I think this is a very detached and may I say inhumane way of looking at human crisis and poverty and lack of resources.

Being subjective rarely gets us very far when dealing with large and complex problems, especially when we keep repeating the same mistakes. What was it Einstein said about that?

We all have more in common than not; we all want to live our one best, safest, happiest life.

And those definitions can vary widely between cultures. Many if not most women in Saudi Arabia may feel they're living their best, safest, happiest life. Would an Irish woman agree?

People have always moved around to follow resources and long before there were political borders.

In the case of large scale movements throughout history it was almost entirely on the back of invasion, slavery, war and colonisation.

Now, often times powerful countries interfere in and exploit other countries to the detriment of their people and then shun their human need to try and find a better life.

And post colonial White guilt raises its head. Again.

Lot of angry, scared people on this thread.

And we're back to argument goes nowhere, resort to attack. Again. Just once, I'd love to see it go differently...

Actually that's not fair. There were two posters I can think of who put their points across without the usual dismissal and attack and actually engaged even though there was disagreement.

newhouse87

irishblessing wrote: »

Ooh, another question without informing or educating your own self! Well let's see here, is Nigeria a euro centric, white dominant western country?

Is it racist if a black person attacks a white person in Nigeria due to skin colour?

irishblessing

enricoh wrote: »

More fluff, zero facts- basically we are all gods children n take everyone in. Pass the spliff there man!

Maybe if more people passed the peace pipe we'd all get along better.

irishblessing

newhouse87 wrote: »

Is it racist if a black person attacks a white person in Nigeria due to skin colour?

Is Nigeria a white, euro centric western world country? Who holds the power in Nigeria?

enricoh

Haha there's no such thing as reverse racism, that's what you're debating with lads! God bless yer patience!

newhouse87

irishblessing wrote: »

Is Nigeria a white, euro centric western world country? Who holds the power in Nigeria?

No its not, so are you agreeing it would be racist if a black person attacked a white person in Nigeria due to skin colour?

irishblessing

irishblessing wrote: »

Nice. You're the one who mentioned all your education, skills and travels without any self awareness of the fact that you were able to do all that because essentially you were supported to do so.

So.. you're now making a case for white privilege then? Are you sure you're on the right thread? the BLM thread is ----> that way.

As for self-awareness, remember what I said about equality? You should consider applying the standards you're throwing at others to yourself.

And yes, I may have an education that is "superior" but I am aware of how privileged I am to have been able to do so. My life hasn't always been easy, but I can admit to the privileges I have had.

Why do you have to admit that?

As I said in the original piece, education in non-western countries tends to be below the standard of European education for all manner of reasons. You don't need to show that your education is better... because most people will assume it is.

Ahh I understand now. This is about virtue signalling. Nah. I have no interest in engaging in such behavior.

Can you post a succinct list of your factors that drive black people down to the bottom of economic systems and also can you please relate that to the discussion of your views on multiculturalism here in Ireland.

I listed four/five main areas, with paragraphs explaining the reasoning behind those areas... and you found yourself incapable of reading it.

"I'd say that culture (theirs and the host nation), lack of education/skills, language acquisition and the desire to come together as ethnic group (community focus). And seriously poor planning on the behalf of the migrants themselves."

First line of that post... haha.. you didn't even "attempt" to read it, and just posted up an immediate deflection. Good lord.

You've shown that you're unwilling to argue in good faith.

Wibbs

irishblessing wrote: »

Ooh, another question without informing or educating your own self! Well let's see here, is Nigeria a euro centric, white dominant western country?

Well one can argue that Nigeria is an Afrocentric, Black dominant African country, so where does that leave the racism question? Take it from a different angle: China is a sinocentric Yellow dominant imperial Asian country of significant power and influence throughout history. If a White guy was attacked by local Chinese because of his skin colour would that be racism? If a Black guy was beaten up by local Chinese would that be? Actually don't answer, but maybe consider that and what you feel is the hierarchy of victimhood.

As I pointed out that's the problem with any of the oppressed/oppressor narratives.

[insert oppressed group here] are always agentless victims and [insert oppressor group here] are always to blame.

No matter where they are to be found. Therefore a White guy will always be somewhat to "blame" regardless. It also frames the Black guy, or [insert oppressed group here] as agentless victims and prey to the curse of low expectations. And lord knows that's a problem.

irishblessing

Wibbs wrote: »

Well the "male white guy" is the top of the tree for the oppressor role so... I'm not reducing anybody's experience, I am pointing out the narratives that are usually wheeled out and the difference is I can demonstrate them.

Well that's true, and yes you did reduce it.

And you're avoiding directly responding to the points like the plague. That's the problem. If a position is so demonstrably obvious, correct, advantageous and the Truth(tm), no amount of "word salad" from an opposing side can hope to deny it.

Point missed entirely.

Disagreeing is not the same as avoiding or denying. Sorry.

While we could go back and forth on the failings of one group or other, I would say the problem is the concept of modern multiculturalism is itself fatally flawed. If it weren't then we could point to such a society somewhere where it works, where the usual patterns aren't repeated and the fact is we can't.
Why?

What is validating this truth for you? Have you studied societies all around the world and been able to conclude that this is actually true? Can you please explain how you have reached this conclusion?

And those definitions can vary widely between cultures. Many if not most women in Saudi Arabia may feel they're living their best, safest, happiest life. Would an Irish woman agree?

I actually have a close friend I met at work during my years in Uni and she is half Saudi. Her father and that side of the family are Saudi. From personal friendship with her, I am under the impression that most women in Saudi Arabia do not feel like they are living their best, safest, happiest life. [/QUOTE]

In the case of large scale movements throughout history it was almost entirely on the back of invasion, slavery, war and colonisation. And post colonial White guilt raises its head. Again.

Go back again even further, too though. Think why North America is populated at all and the Siberian land bridge that once existed, and the most likely explanation of following animal herds. But also as you mention, the post colonial effects are real and should not be dismissed just because you (the proverbial you, anyone) are uncomfortable with that reality and the feelings that may come from that.
[/QUOTE]

Wibbs

irishblessing wrote: »

Maybe if more people passed the peace pipe we'd all get along better.

Nah we're screwed there IB, the peace pipes were filled with tobacco so health and safety would show up with a host of tiresome men wearing clipboards and shut it down.



Never mind it didn't work out to well for Native Americans...

newhouse87

irish blessingwont respond beacuse it makes **** of their argument, essentially according to them, a white person can go to nigeria beat up a black person beacuse thery are black and it not be racist but if it happened in ireland it is racist, so there you have folks it racism is based on geography.

irishblessing

Wibbs wrote: »

Well one can argue that Nigeria is an Afrocentric, Black dominant African country, so where does that leave the racism question?

Exactly. It's good to look at it in this way to start.

Take it from a different angle: China is a sinocentric Yellow dominant imperial Asian country of significant power and influence throughout history. If a White guy was attacked by local Chinese because of his skin colour would that be racism?

Yes.

If a Black guy was beaten up by local Chinese would that be?

Yes. Interesting you didn't want me to answer that.

I pointed out that's the problem with any of the oppressed/oppressor narratives.

[insert oppressed group here] are always agentless victims and [insert oppressor group here] are always to blame.

I don't see a problem here. Any perpetrator of racism or prejudice to the victim is always to blame.

No matter where they are to be found. Therefore a White guy will always be somewhat to "blame" regardless. It also frames the Black guy, or [insert oppressed group here] as agentless victims and prey to the curse of low expectations. And lord knows that's a problem.

I think we've established the faulty logic here. You definitely made a good effort to try and steer the narrative that way though. I wonder if you even realise it.

irishblessing

newhouse87 wrote: »

irish blessingwont respond beacuse it makes **** of their argument, essentially according to them, a white person can go to nigeria beat up a black person beacuse thery are black and it not be racist but if it happened in ireland it is racist, so there you have folks it racism is based on geography.

Uh oh, guess you will have to eat your words. I didn't see your post until now, because I was too busy responding. :pac:

Surprised you got it right there in the end though. Nice work!!

utterly oblivious.

Hilarious. Even in responding to Wibbs, he misses the point in comparison to his earlier statements.

newhouse87

irishblessing wrote: »

Uh oh, guess you will have to eat your words. I didn't see your post until now, because I was too busy responding. :pac:

its ok i answered for you beacuse you had hit a deadend and had no way out.

irishblessing

Deleted User wrote: »

utterly oblivious.

Hilarious. Even in responding to Wibbs, he misses the point in comparison to his earlier statements.

You keep telling yourself that. It obviously makes things easier for you.