What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Arthur Daley

Arthur Daley wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-could-be-minority-ethnic-group-here-by-2050-professor-1.424517

Unpublished research which he doesn't allow us to see? err...

Look. It's simple economics. Western nations have falling birth rates because people can no longer afford to have large families. Due to work commitments (to earn an income), and rising costs in every first world nation, people are having small families. Even then, the rising costs are forcing many to forego having more than one child. [It's also the aspect that women often have no choice but to work outside the home, due to the costs of living... but we're actually seeing a rise in women who want to turn away from feminism, and focus on having a family. Should costs decrease, we'll likely see a rise in birth rates, as that movement continues][ In addition, the push to bring about remote work, will also affect population rates, as parents can spend more time at home, and so, dedicate more time to children]

Westerners themselves, due to a higher standard of health services, and availability of higher quality food, can live longer, and remain fertile for longer periods. The case of women being limited to 30 with the risk of children being born physically or mentally retarded, has been reduced somewhat, so western women are capable of having children into a later age group.

Now. Migrants who come in, will initially be on State supports, but at some point, they will be required to enter the workforce, and become independent. There is a reasonable fear that they will remain on low-skilled low-income groups, and therefore need State supplements to bring up their lifestyles, but even with those supports, it's unlikely that they would reach the standards of a middle class family.

As such, with the high costs of living in Ireland, and further rising costs, migrant families, will be forced to conform, the same as Irish families to the practicalities of living in a first world nation. In that, you can have a large family with a ****ty lifestyle, or you can have a small family, and have a fairly reasonable lifestyle (should they upskill or re-educate to gain better employment).

Ireland has just gone through a relatively prosperous period where the government has been loose with the purse strings, but with both the effects of covid on the economy, and the recession that would have happened anyway, the Government will have far less revenue available to provide in Welfare supports.. and the funds to allocate to minority groups. As such, those migrant groups will be forced by practical considerations to limit their families...

Oh, some will break the general rule, just as it happens with some working class families, or those completely on welfare, but they're going to be an extreme minority, because as the recession continues, the State will clamp down on such behavior. As they did, during the last recession. It's when the coffers are full, that the government gets stupid with money... and national debt can only go so far, with the EU looking over their shoulders.

So... no.. Irish people aren't going to become a minority any time soon. Oh, it could happen in the future, but there is no example throughout Europe where this has happened, and they've had a longer period of immigration, and a greater loss in population growth (again for a longer period).

eleventh

eleventh wrote: »

I don't agree with race-mixing as a policy. It happens and it's fine when it happens, but as a policy which we see being pursued in government advertising etc (I think that was mentioned earlier in thread or could have been another thread...) it's wrong. In multicultural societies, even where cultures stay together away from each other, there is still an amount of race-mixing. If you're in a school/college or area where it's about 50/50 Irish(or European) vs non-European, there's going to be relationships and children coming out of that.

I do agree with "race-mixing" or rather inter-racial relationships... If I ever do marry, or have children with someone, they'll likely be Asian.

Inter-racial long-term relationships are relatively rare in comparison to the standard single racial relationship, and many of them break up within a decade of coming together. They're an extremely difficult relationship to maintain, especially when cultural groups are so different. While such relationships happen more in the UK, they've had a much longer period of time to grow used to multiculturalism.. whereas Ireland will have residual conformist attitudes to stick to other white people, or those who share a common cultural background.

I think you're worried about a very small number of people... And while it may change after a few decades, as people become more comfortable with other groups, I still think it's only going to concern a very small part of the population. In some instances, other cultural groups have taboos or rules against marriage with outsiders... even without dealing with any reluctance to mix from a domestic Irish pov.

eleventh

Deleted User wrote: »

Look. It's simple economics.
......
As such, with the high costs of living in Ireland, and further rising costs, migrant families, will be forced to conform, the same as Irish families to the practicalities of living in a first world nation. In that, you can have a large family with a ****ty lifestyle, or you can have a small family, and have a fairly reasonable lifestyle (should they upskill or re-educate to gain better employment).

Even in Ireland it's the lower economic groups who tend to have larger families. They don't seem to think, can I afford a child, but have a belief that it will work out. Wealth isn't a deciding factor.
For some, having a large family (even 4 would be large these days) is a measure of success.
So it's going to depend on the values. If they came from a culture where having x amount was normal/expected, they'll probably have the same amount here.
Maybe the culture doesn't allow contraception etc.

..... the Government will have far less revenue available to provide in Welfare supports.. and the funds to allocate to minority groups. As such, those migrant groups will be forced by practical considerations to limit their families...

I don't know about that. It would be interesting to see if birth rates dropped in Ireland say in the 80s in recession, or in times of prosperity (celtic tiger) increased. I think there are lots of variables, obviously, economics is one. You mentioned feminism as well. I can't comment much as to if that's declining or not. It doesn't seem to be.

So... no.. Irish people aren't going to become a minority any time soon.

It will happen sooner or later. Can't pin-point when exactly.
We're going in the wrong direction anyway. If we don't turn it around, we pass it to the next generation when it’s going to be even more difficult to deal with, and it shouldn't be their problem - and they'll resent it. It's not how things should be.
The time to deal with it really was 90s/early 00s. It should have been nipped in the bud then.

Ten of Swords

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eleventh

eleventh wrote: »

Even in Ireland it's the lower economic groups who tend to have larger families. They don't seem to think, can I afford a child, but have a belief that it will work out. Wealth isn't a deciding factor.
For some, having a large family (even 4 would be large these days) is a measure of success.
So it's going to depend on the values. If they came from a culture where having x amount was normal/expected, they'll probably have the same amount here.
Maybe the culture doesn't allow contraception etc.

You say that wealth isn't a factor, and then say that it's usually the lower economic groups who do it. Wealth is always going to be a major factor... and as I said, some will continue regardless, they will be a minority, in doing so.

So this fear of Irish people being outnumbered in their own country based on differing birth rates, is highly unlikely.

I don't know about that. It would be interesting to see if birth rates dropped in Ireland say in the 80s in recession, or in times of prosperity (celtic tiger) increased. I think there are lots of variables, obviously, economics is one. You mentioned feminism as well. I can't comment much as to if that's declining or not. It doesn't seem to be.

I referred to a growing number of women who are turning their back on building a career, and instead, focusing on having a family. It's a trend. Whether it continues, increases or decreases, is anyone's guess.

It will happen sooner or later. Can't pin-point when exactly.
We're going in the wrong direction anyway. If we don't turn it around, we pass it to the next generation when it’s going to be even more difficult to deal with, and it shouldn't be their problem - and they'll resent it. It's not how things should be.
The time to deal with it really was 90s/early 00s. It should have been nipped in the bud then.

Pass what to the next generation? In any case, every generation passes a lot of their crap to the next generation.. all the decisions that nobody is prepared to make, and stand by.

In any case, I'm more concerned with the effects of multiculturalism, and rising numbers of low-skilled migrants on the economy/welfare, than any fear of Irish people becoming a minority in their own country.

CtevenSrowder

eleventh wrote: »

I can't see how it won't happen with current trends. We are below replacement rate and non-Europeans pouring in at an alarming rate considering their much higher reproduction and with extended families having rights to join them. There's a never-ending stream of them and no signs of it slowing, whether in recession or not. We're a tiny island. We'll be overwhelmed within the next couple of decades at current rates, even faster than UK. It's very sad, but that's the direction it's going.

The idea of replacement is in a sense impossible. Unless in the space of a tiny few years we have over 5 million people enter into Ireland, which won't happen. Children of immigrants born in Ireland are Irish.

Yellow_Fern

It is interesting that RTE now promotes Black History month. Is this widespread? I am support celebrating Irish black history but there is so little that this history initiative is more like American History Month. Will we get a Polish history month or a Indian history month too is it just for black people for some reason?

ThunbergsAreGo

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It is interesting that RTE now promotes Black History month. Is this widespread? I am support celebrating Irish black history but there is so little that this history initiative is more like American History Month. Will we get a Polish history month or a Indian history month too is it just for black people for some reason?

There will be an unfortunate backlash to this (the general trend, not this specifically)

Though to be fair to RTE 90 percent of their programming is 3rd rate American Programs, might as well take their "culture".

Really underrepresentation of white non Irish cultures in the media and public life in Ireland

Wibbs

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It is interesting that RTE now promotes Black History month. Is this widespread? I am support celebrating Irish black history but there is so little that this history initiative is more like American History Month. Will we get a Polish history month or a Indian history month too is it just for black people for some reason?

Really? Meh, it's RTE, so it's more about appealing to whatever is currently fashionable and "right on" for the leafy suburban dwellers they think is their audience, because that's where most of their staff hail from. I'm quite sure the number of Black folks living in Ireland that have even noticed this is miniscule. I gave away my TV a few years ago and one reason was because I couldn't justify supporting that out of date, out of touch badly run civil service behemoth and with the passage of time that decision feels more right.

Yellow_Fern

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

The idea of replacement is in a sense impossible. Unless in the space of a tiny few years we have over 5 million people enter into Ireland, which won't happen. Children of immigrants born in Ireland are Irish.

Nationality vs ethnicity. Many of the kids growing up to immigrant parents are ethnically Irish in my book but plenty others aren't. It is a very subjective thing though.

TomTomTim

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Nationality vs ethnicity. Many of the kids growing up to immigrant parents are ethnically Irish in my book but plenty others aren't. It is a very subjective thing though.

I don't agree, simply as a matter of preciseness. I'd struggle to call any 2nd generation immigrants ethnically Irish, because they simply aren't. They can be Irish citizens, and act as Irish as any of us, but they still aren't ethnically Irish. The word ethnicity has a meaning, and I'm not willing to betray that. The bastardization of language has been one of the main tools of "progressives", so I think we'd be wise not to go down that road, or at least not contribute to it. The world as it stands is blurry enough, without making it even worse.

CtevenSrowder

TomTomTim wrote: »

I don't agree, simply as a matter of preciseness. I'd struggle to call any 2nd generation immigrants ethnically Irish, because they simply aren't. They can be Irish citizens, and act as Irish as any of us, but they still aren't ethnically Irish. The word ethnicity has a meaning, and I'm not willing to betray that. The bastardization of language has been one of the main tools of "progressives", so I think we'd be wise not to go down that road, or at least not contribute to it. The world as it stands is blurry enough, without making it even worse.

What defenition of ethnicity are you using. Because I briefly looked up the word and if they act as Irish as any of us then they meet the definition I saw:

'the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition'.

By claiming they are not you, imo, go down the dangerous road like they have in America were people consider themselves 'African' American, 'Irish' American etc. Instead of simply American. I do not want such a scenario in Ireland. It is bad for social cohesian, and results when immigration is too high, which is why I'm in favor of limiting it, particular immigration from outside the EU.

Eric Cartman

TomTomTim wrote: »

I don't agree, simply as a matter of preciseness. I'd struggle to call any 2nd generation immigrants ethnically Irish, because they simply aren't. They can be Irish citizens, and act as Irish as any of us, but they still aren't ethnically Irish. The word ethnicity has a meaning, and I'm not willing to betray that. The bastardization of language has been one of the main tools of "progressives", so I think we'd be wise not to go down that road, or at least not contribute to it. The world as it stands is blurry enough, without making it even worse.

Id agree. I would not consider the child of two ethnically non irish people irish in any way, even if born here. If somebody had one ethnically irish parent that would be the lowest bar for being irish. However if that half irish kid had kids with somebody non irish that child would not be irish in my eyes.

And before anyone starts, yes this applies to the children of our EU immigrant friends too and not just those with darker skin.

TomTomTim

TomTomTim wrote: »

I don't agree, simply as a matter of preciseness. I'd struggle to call any 2nd generation immigrants ethnically Irish, because they simply aren't. They can be Irish citizens, and act as Irish as any of us, but they still aren't ethnically Irish. The word ethnicity has a meaning, and I'm not willing to betray that. The bastardization of language has been one of the main tools of "progressives", so I think we'd be wise not to go down that road, or at least not contribute to it. The world as it stands is blurry enough, without making it even worse.

Agreed. The population of Ireland is predominately White Irish people with clear links to the historical genetic pool. That to be is the ethnically Irish.

2nd Gen (or 1st Gen) who become Irish, are simply Irish from a legal perspective, ie. Citizenship. .. the same way as I could become Chinese, but never actually be ethnically Chinese.

Should the demographic change where there is a much greater degree of interracial mixing to the point where the ethnic dominance of Irish genes is challenged, then I'll re-evaluate my perspective.

And I agree completely on the bastardisation of language.

Sand

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

What defenition of ethnicity are you using. Because I briefly looked up the word and if they act as Irish as any of us then they meet the definition I saw:

'the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition'.

By claiming they are not you, imo, go down the dangerous road like they have in America were people consider themselves 'African' American, 'Irish' American etc. Instead of simply American. I do not want such a scenario in Ireland. It is bad for social cohesian, and results when immigration is too high, which is why I'm in favor of limiting it, particular immigration from outside the EU.

Ethnic descent? I.E. to be of an ethnic group you need to be descended from that group. Ethnicity isnt a costume you can put on and take off.

The US is a multi-ethnic territory/economic zone. Wishful thinking to pretend it isnt wont magic away the ethnic strife that is tearing that place apart. Hasn't worked in USA. Hasn't worked in France. Hasn't worked in the UK. Hasn't worked in Sweden. We shouldn't want that in Ireland, I agree, but how we avoid it is preventing mass migration into Ireland which creates the ethnic enclaves.

CtevenSrowder

Sand wrote: »

Ethnic descent? I.E. to be of an ethnic group you need to be descended from that group. Ethnicity isnt a costume you can put on and take off.

The US is a multi-ethnic territory/economic zone. Wishful thinking to pretend it isnt wont magic away the ethnic strife that is tearing that place apart. Hasn't worked in USA. Hasn't worked in France. Hasn't worked in the UK. Hasn't worked in Sweden. We shouldn't want that in Ireland, I agree, but how we avoid it is preventing mass migration into Ireland which creates the ethnic enclaves.

Give me a definition. This is from wikipedia:

'An ethnic group or ethnicity is a named social category of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups such as a common set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area'.

A person born in Ireland and fully immersed in our culture can absolutely meet that definition, regardless of where their parents are from.

Agree with bolded part btw.

Sand

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Give me a definition. This is from wikipedia:

'An ethnic group or ethnicity is a named social category of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups such as a common set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area'.

A person born in Ireland and fully immersed in our culture can absolutely meet that definition, regardless of where their parents are from.

I've bolded and underlined the important part of the above definition. Ethnic descent is what distinguishes ethnic Irish from non-Irish groups (and in turn those ethnic groups from the Irish). You can imitate a people, but it doesn't make you one of those people.

Even apart from that, the common history of ethnic Irish people (anywhere from 800-10,000 years depending on your definition) is different from non-ethnic Irish groups which only settled in the last 10-20 years. A child raised by ethnic Irish parents is going to have a different background than a child raised by non Irish parents - they will likely have a second (or third) language linked to their ethnic heritage and which may have been the language spoken in the home. Certainly, non-Irish parents will often push these children to not forget their roots in the old country. This is normal, and not to be prevented but the ethnic Irish have their roots in this country. Often these non-Irish groups will not be Christian, but even to the extent they are the Irish are increasingly post-Christian due in no small part to the Irish experience of an overwhelming Catholic Church. My mother can relate stories to me of how friends and relatives of hers were treated under that regime. It's an Irish history passed down through the generations of Irish families. A child raised by non-Irish parents doesn't have that, though they may hear different stories about the old country from their non-Irish parents.

Even despite all that, Irish law and the constitution doesn't agree with you. The ethnic descent of your parents is the key factor in determining if you are Irish or not under Irish law. Where you are born is irrelevant. This isnt America.

Wibbs

Sand wrote: »

This isnt America.

Precisely, it isn't. Unfortunately way too often we see the world through their scratched lens, particularly in Ireland and especially with the politic of multiculturalism that the US has had to deal with in ways European nations haven't, but too many Europeans gung ho for this politic ignore the fundamental differences.

America is a country and culture where by virtue of citizenship you can actually become American. That is the very basis for America itself as a nation, though some demographics were and remain not quite as American as others... Similar can be said for other former colonies, but not to the degree that America operates and believes. In Europe the closest to that would be France where they extended being French to their colonies. With mixed results and mostly as a sop to potential rebellion. For the rest of Europe(and the rest of the world) including Ireland it's quite a different philosophy at play. Why so many continue to ape the Yanks in this is beyond me.

eleventh

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

... By claiming they are not you, imo, go down the dangerous road like they have in America were people consider themselves 'African' American, 'Irish' American etc. Instead of simply American.

People who are of mixed heritage want to acknowledge that heritage. Calling an African, Irish, may be convenient or save paperwork etc, but it's not true and it's not reality. It's similar to the related 'progressive' issue where someone born male expects to be referred to as a woman. People can lie if they want. We live in a culture where lies are promoted now, all the time. It is spun as 'having empathy' or some other ruse.

It's only by destroying our own culture that others can come in and take over.

I do not want such a scenario in Ireland. It is bad for social cohesian, and results when immigration is too high, which is why I'm in favor of limiting it, particular immigration from outside the EU.

I think the opposite is more likely. Africans in Ireland, for example, if surrounded by other Africans calling themselves Irish, will more likely do the same, than if they're a small minority.

twinytwo

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Nationality vs ethnicity. Many of the kids growing up to immigrant parents are ethnically Irish in my book but plenty others aren't. It is a very subjective thing though.

??? If your parents are Brazilian or Nigerian but you are born in Ireland.... You are about as far from ethnic irish as you can get?. Regardless of how you choose to define it

eleventh

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Id agree. I would not consider the child of two ethnically non irish people irish in any way, even if born here. If somebody had one ethnically irish parent that would be the lowest bar for being irish. However if that half irish kid had kids with somebody non irish that child would not be irish in my eyes.


And before anyone starts, yes this applies to the children of our EU immigrant friends too and not just those with darker skin.

I agree with your first point, but on the second - race and skin is an issue.
Europeans and Russians for example blend far more easily in Irish society than others.

CtevenSrowder

Sand wrote: »

I've bolded and underlined the important part of the above definition. Ethnic descent is what distinguishes ethnic Irish from non-Irish groups (and in turn those ethnic groups from the Irish). You can imitate a people, but it doesn't make you one of those people.

You have reduced ethnicity solely down to whose ones parents are. There is more to the definition then this (as per wiki)

An ethnic group or ethnicity is a named social category of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups such as a common set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area.

A person born and raised in Ireland to foreign parents can absolutely meet the above definition, and in fact can meet every part of it bar ancestry.

Sand wrote: »

Even apart from that, the common history of ethnic Irish people (anywhere from 800-10,000 years depending on your definition) is different from non-ethnic Irish groups which only settled in the last 10-20 years.

I am talking of people born in and raised in the country, not someone who has obtained citizenship through naturalisation.

Sand wrote: »

A child raised by ethnic Irish parents is going to have a different background than a child raised by non Irish parents - they will likely have a second (or third) language linked to their ethnic heritage and which may have been the language spoken in the home. Certainly, non-Irish parents will often push these children to not forget their roots in the old country. This is normal, and not to be prevented but the ethnic Irish have their roots in this country. Often these non-Irish groups will not be Christian, but even to the extent they are the Irish are increasingly post-Christian due in no small part to the Irish experience of an overwhelming Catholic Church.

Again, you equate everything to whose ones parents are, and ignore every other aspect that goes into an ethnicity. A person born and raised in Ireland will very likely have all their roots in this country.

Sand wrote: »

My mother can relate stories to me of how friends and relatives of hers were treated under that regime. It's an Irish history passed down through the generations of Irish families. A child raised by non-Irish parents doesn't have that, though they may hear different stories about the old country from their non-Irish parents.

With respect this is a bizarre argument. In 40 years when these people are all dead the stories will be confined to history books. A person born in this country will go through the Irish education system and learn Irish history more or less like everyone else does. Nobody ever regaled stories to me about the Irish famine, I learned about it in school.

Sand wrote: »

Even despite all that, Irish law and the constitution doesn't agree with you. The ethnic descent of your parents is the key factor in determining if you are Irish or not under Irish law. Where you are born is irrelevant. This isn't America.

The Law dictates nationality, not ethnicity. I am actually in favour of the current Law with regards to nationality. And ethnic descent is not necessarily a key factor, as your parents could be British and you would be entitled to an Irish Passport, or resident in Ireland for the preceding 4 years (but not as a student or Asylum seeker). One does not simply have to be born to Irish parents to obtain citizenship.

CtevenSrowder

eleventh wrote: »

I think the opposite is more likely. Africans in Ireland, for example, if surrounded by other Africans calling themselves Irish, will more likely do the same, than if they're a small minority.

Maybe so, but from looking at Britain and America they have the concept of 'BAME' and 'African' American, terms that I have essentially never seen applied to Ireland. I am not sure if such terms are used in France for example, so I could ofcourse be wrong in my belief.

Sand

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

You have reduced ethnicity solely down to whose ones parents are. There is more to the definition then this (as per wiki)

A person born and raised in Ireland to foreign parents can absolutely meet the above definition, and in fact can meet every part of it bar ancestry.

Which is why ancestry is the most important factor for ethnicity, as (going by your definition) it is the factor that distinguishes the ethnic Irish from other groups. And as I outlined already, the other characteristics of Irish ethnicity are passed down to Irish children by Irish parents. Ancestry is key.

I am talking of people born in and raised in the country, not someone who has obtained citizenship through naturalisation.

So am I. We're talking about people who might read about Irish history, but it is not *their* history in the same way I might read about Polish history but it is not my history.

Again, you equate everything to whose ones parents are, and ignore every other aspect that goes into an ethnicity. A person born and raised in Ireland will very likely have all their roots in this country.

This assertion is just wishful thinking on your part.

With respect this is a bizarre argument. In 40 years when these people are all dead the stories will be confined to history books. A person born in this country will go through the Irish education system and learn Irish history more or less like everyone else does. Nobody ever regaled stories to me about the Irish famine, I learned about it in school.

The greatest formative factor on a child is their family, not their school.

The Law dictates nationality, not ethnicity. I am actually in favour of the current Law with regards to nationality. And ethnic descent is not necessarily a key factor, as your parents could be British and you would be entitled to an Irish Passport, or resident in Ireland for the preceding 4 years (but not as a student or Asylum seeker). One does not simply have to be born to Irish parents to obtain citizenship.

I routinely stress that there is a difference between ethnic Irish and holding an Irish passport. You can apply for an Irish passport, but you cant apply to be ethnic Irish.

The key point is that you think its unreasonable to define ethnic groups by descent, whereas the Irish nation-state routinely defines citizenship by descent regardless of your place of birth and regardless of cultural factors. Irish by descent, not by language tests, or multiple choice quizzes that anyone can pass or by drinking Guinness.

Again, Ireland is not America.

McHardcore

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Id agree. I would not consider the child of two ethnically non irish people irish in any way, even if born here. If somebody had one ethnically irish parent that would be the lowest bar for being irish. However if that half irish kid had kids with somebody non irish that child would not be irish in my eyes.

This reminds me of when we excluded those from The Pale as not being ethnically Irish, or if Irish was not their first language.

CtevenSrowder

Sand wrote: »

Which is why ancestry is the most important factor for ethnicity, as (going by your definition) it is the factor that distinguishes the ethnic Irish from other groups. And as I outlined already, the other characteristics of Irish ethnicity are passed down to Irish children by Irish parents. Ancestry is key.

No it isn't. Culture is very important aswell. You seem to attach no importance to it at all and associate ethnicity solely with the nationality of the parents.

Sand wrote: »

So am I. We're talking about people who might read about Irish history, but it is not *their* history in the same way I might read about Polish history but it is not my history.

Who are you say to a person born in Ireland and raised in Ireland that Irish history isn't their history? That is the height of arrogance. Polish history isn't your history because you weren't born and raised there. Nobody owns history regardless.

Sand wrote: »

This assertion is just wishful thinking on your part.

Why? My girlfriend is from South America but raised in Spain from a young age, and feels no affiliation for Ecuador at all. She considers herself Spanish.

Sand wrote: »

I routinely stress that there is a difference between ethnic Irish and holding an Irish passport. You can apply for an Irish passport, but you cant apply to be ethnic Irish.

The key point is that you think its unreasonable to define ethnic groups by descent, whereas the Irish nation-state routinely defines citizenship by descent regardless of your place of birth and regardless of cultural factors. Irish by descent, not by language tests, or multiple choice quizzes that anyone can pass or by drinking Guinness.

Again, Ireland is not America.

I do not think it is unreasonable, I think it is wrong do it solely by that, which is what you are doing, and ignore things like culture. And what the law states is irrelevant. It bears upon someone nationality. The Law around this only changed in 2005. There are moves to rechange this Law. Bringing up the Law doesn't bolster your argument the way you think it does. A person can become Irish through naturalisation, nothing to do with their parent's descent.

And I am aware we are not America, it is, contrary what you may believe, me who is arguing against Americanism. I do not want the nonsense of someone whose great-great-grandfather was from Nigeria, who has never been there, has no ties to the place, doesn't know anything about the culture, going around calling themselves 'African' Irish because according to people like you they aren't truely Irish. They are (though they can call themselves what they like).

seenitall

I’ve lived in this country 20 years, and I could live here 20 more (which I don’t intend to do), and I will never be Irish. I could get an Irish passport (which I don’t intend to do), and still I won’t be Irish. The second an Irish person hears me speak, hearing my accent, they know I am not Irish and direct the conversation accordingly. That’s one way I always knew I’d never be/feel Irish. It is, heh, far from Ireland that I was raised. Besides, the history of my ancestors and my home turf is cleaved deep within me. My geographical and social environment growing up has moulded me for all time. Irish history is not my history, the Irish language not my language.

That’s me.

My daughter on the other hand, was born here and is growing up here, being raised by two non-Irish parents (of different nationalities to each other), she has the Irish citizenship and nationality - when I ask her what she is, she tells me she’s Irish. That’s fine with me, she is being moulded by her childhood and formative years in this country. Is she Irish ethnically? No, going by some definitions here. That’s also fine by me, however I don’t know if she will see it that way, as I don’t think she has an ethnicity otherwise? She is not half and half of whatever my ex and I are, as neither one of us particularly bothered to impart our own nationhood’s stamp on to her. It never seemed that important. I just want her to grow into a well adjusted and well educated person, I don’t truly care about much else. If she feels Irish, dunno, I just think she has sufficient grounds to think herself that.

rgossip30

Easing restrictions on work for asylum seekers and providing own door accommodation at a time of an economic crisis and a housing shortage is bizzare . I wonder how long do they need to work to then claim welfare . I think not long !!

https://www.irishlegal.com/article/restrictions-on-asylum-seekers-access-to-work-to-be-eased?fbclid=IwAR3tBnOx_YtAMgU6x-AltscDvEZoj8abtIQIv81PS4bosIc-5VvtWPL5Q1s

Yellow_Fern

TomTomTim wrote: »

I don't agree, simply as a matter of preciseness. I'd struggle to call any 2nd generation immigrants ethnically Irish, because they simply aren't. They can be Irish citizens, and act as Irish as any of us, but they still aren't ethnically Irish. The word ethnicity has a meaning, and I'm not willing to betray that. The bastardization of language has been one of the main tools of "progressives", so I think we'd be wise not to go down that road, or at least not contribute to it. The world as it stands is blurry enough, without making it even worse.

Perhaps. It is very subjective but either way one does always have to say ethnicity because people get confused about due to passports and legal nationality. It is a problem that anti immigration protestors are so flippant about terms.

doublejobbing 2

rgossip30 wrote: »

. I wonder how long do they need to work to then claim welfare .

40 per week on arrival already IIRC.

When you have free rent, light and heat, food, clothing, travel and GP, and no internet bill, and a mobile costs a tenner a month with Gomo, 40 per week is more than some natives on disability would have left.