What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Richard Hillman

Phat Cat wrote: »

It's strange alright and there certainly seems to be some sort of agenda going on, even government departments are trotting out ads like this one.

I think they usually outsource them to marketing companies. But they will request them to show some "Diversity"

dwayneshintzy

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

You think its just a weird obsession?

Personally I think there's something more to it.

And what's that then?

olestoepoke

Geuze wrote: »

This is what I don't like.

The media/Irish Times/Civil service in this case, are trying to make us accept it.

Do the Japanese childcare posters have Celtic children in them, or Mexican children?

Irish Times / RTE, St. Patrick's Day - African child in photo - I wonder if I go to the national public holiday in Turkey, will the local media have a photograph of a Bolivian child, or a British child?

These people seem to want an end to the nation-state, they seem to hate nationalism?

If I land into China, am I Chinese? Obviously not.

Yet an African who arrives here, is labelled "new-Irish" by RTE/Irish Times.

Not defending their agenda as theres definitely something going on but there are plenty of Irish people born here of African decent who are just as Irish as anyone. I know a guy who plays GAA hurling, fluent Irish speaker, went to a Gaeilscoil both primary and secondary and has a thick Northside Dublin accent. How can anyone call this guy anything but an Irish man.

Cyclonius

olestoepoke wrote: »

Not defending their agenda as theres definitely something going on but there are plenty of Irish people born here of African decent who are just as Irish as anyone. I know a guy who plays GAA hurling, fluent Irish speaker, went to a Gaeilscoil both primary and secondary and has a thick Northside Dublin accent. How can anyone call this guy anything but an Irish man.

I'd agree with this point. It's not the colour of a person's skin that makes a person "one of us" or not, for want of a better term (not that I think that Geuze was arguing the opposite for a second), it's how integrated they are with the community. Where you have young people of African, Asian, etc. descent that integrated into the community, they're Irish, even in cases where they weren't born here. The issue is where you have social sub-groups, regardless of whether or not they are of native origin, that are have little in common with the rest of society. It breeds resentment and distrust, and is associated with a wide variety of problems, including increased poverty, increased crime, poorer health outcomes, etc., for the smaller groups.

The unfortunate truth is that cultural homogeneity equals a more cohesive society. Heterogeneity equals decreased trust, and the whole range of problems that entails. A large body of work in economic and political science research into ethno-linguistic fractionalization (ELF)/ethnic fractionalisation (EF) demonstrates this quite adeptly. On our own island, we only have to look North to see the problems that can be associated with a culturally heterogeneous state, even one where almost everyone was the same colour/race.

ELM327

Phat Cat wrote: »

It's strange alright and there certainly seems to be some sort of agenda going on, even government departments are trotting out ads like this one.

Sure I don't know, I'm from Donegal.

ExMachina1000

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I think they usually outsource them to marketing companies. But they will request them to show some "Diversity"

White men dont need social welfare maybe?

olestoepoke

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

White men dont need social welfare maybe?

What a strange post. There is a lot more to the opening of child minding facilities and the Budget than social welfare.

US2

How common are interracial relationships in Ireland? I live fairly rural so I dont see much, but these things make it seem like it's the norm ?

It's never a white man either, always black man white wife

ExMachina1000

olestoepoke wrote: »

What a strange post. There is a lot more to the opening of child minding facilities and the Budget than social welfare.

I'm going by the posted government leaflets and images. Very strange not to have white men on any of them considering the countries demographics

olestoepoke

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I'm going by the posted government leaflets and images. Very strange not to have white men on any of them considering the countries demographics

Oh sorry, you were referring to leaflets pertaining to social welfare. I thought we were discussing the two posters in this thread so you mentioning social welfare was bizarre.

Odhinn

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

You think its just a weird obsession?

Personally I think there's something more to it.

What is this "something more"...?

Randy Archer

KungPao wrote: »

It doesn’t work. And I’m sad to see the Ireland I grew up in lose it’s character.

If you come here, integrate.

How has Ireland lost its character , based on foreigners coming in ?

Many of us are fierce Americanised lately . We adopt a lot of British culture , which to be fair, many “Brits” in the arts and sports etc are 2nd or 3rd generation Irish

We are getting rid of the authoritarian Catholic Church , hardly a bad thing . Not wanting to bash the church btw , especially since wokeness and political correctness is the new “religion “ . In fact it’s the foreigners from Africa and the Poles who would be keeping the RCC alive -

Yes, those new comers should integrate . No question . Many in fairness have . Most of our foreigners are European

Randy Archer

Phat Cat wrote: »

It's strange alright and there certainly seems to be some sort of agenda going on, even government departments are trotting out ads like this one.

Meh, just like almost every typical pop band from Britain in the 1990s onwards , is it a coincidence ?

You had your slightly older one for the parents to fancy eg Gerry Spice / Keith Duffy . You got your cute and blatantly closet gay one . You always got the black - ethnicity minority one (who funny enough often was the talented one ) -

Cyclical marketing to meet all the potential markets

Safe to say , that that chap integrated (unless , it’s a cynical hire models shoot )

It’s pretty obvious that this is programming people to accept multiculturalism and immigration , that’s its the norm . To make those minorities that are here , feel represented

The big big big big mistake Ireland made was the uncontrolled immigration that came in . Not referring to European . Nor am I saying asylum per se as the law requires us to take in and listen to the cock n bull stories (the state records of asylum proves this and confirmed by the court JR ) The issue was the failure to remove the failed cases immediately because for some reason, the state were too scared of the barks of a tiny minority such as Rosanna Flynn and her mob . This led to hostility

Hamachi

US2 wrote: »

How common are interracial relationships in Ireland? I live fairly rural so I dont see much, but these things make it seem like it's the norm ?

It's never a white man either, always black man white wife

Not very common.

There's nothing wrong with interracial relationships. People are free to love who they choose. The reality on the ground is that the overwhelming majority of people (of all races) are in same-race relationships. This holds true even in the most multicultural parts of Dublin.

Wibbs

US2 wrote: »

It's never a white man either, always black man white wife

Well the White Man is painted as the root of all evil™, the oppressor in right on narratives and women are the oppressed, doubly so for non White women, so White man, Black woman(and to a lesser extent Asian woman) doesn't frame so well for that narrative. Always the colonial rapist, never the groom.

It's like a reversal of the older racist narrative that wouldn't have shown a Black man and White woman in such a setup. Where the Black man was seen as the raper of White women. You see that in old American media. IIRC Star Trek was the first US TV show to have a White guy(Captain Kirk. Naturally) snog a Black woman. Oh it was fine if he was snogging green women, so long as they were White under the makeup. That particular episode wasn't screened in some US states and the scene was cut from the syndicated episodes. That's not that long ago either.

This Black man White woman seems to be a kickback to that. Not unlike the reverse chauvinism only pointed at the male these days.

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

Heres whats on the Govt website in relation to Children and Childcare

Something about this image, I can't quite put my finger on it?

There doesn't seem to be any White man/White Woman couples on it...no agenda I'm sure.

This is more of the multiculturalist happy clappy propaganda and propaganda it is. It certainly doesn't reflect reality. It would be a hard sell in much more multiethnic societies than Ireland, where biracial marriages are still the exception over head of population, but it's plainly daft and more than obvious a propaganda piece in an Irish context.

The 1916 census showed African folks, men women and kids make up just over 1% of the Irish population. Biracial couples would be an even smaller percentage of that again. If that illustration was a reflection of Irish society it would be all White couples. If it were going for inclusivity without spin it would show one Black couple with their kids. Maybe an Asian couple to cover bases. It would not show exclusively biracial couples and not a single White man in the mix. There's not a single non White adult woman either. Hell there are far more Gay couples per head of population, the vast majority of them White as well and where are they in that pic?

I'm not one for conspiracy guff, but that illustration and the photo quoted are most certainly leading and misleading the public and in an all too obvious way. Though what was it that evil prick Goebbels said? "It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion" He also said "if you need to tell a lie, make it a big one, and stick to it" and "the man in the street is more simple than we may suppose, so propaganda must be simple and repeated often". Yep, that fits well enough.

ELM327

US2 wrote: »

How common are interracial relationships in Ireland? I live fairly rural so I dont see much, but these things make it seem like it's the norm ?

It's never a white man either, always black man white wife

Not very, imo.
People generally associate themselves with similar types of people (ie you don't have a CEO dating someone on the dole, for instance).
Generally people in relationships would be in similar life stages, similar career development, similar socio economic group etc. It's unlikely that there are many biracial couples in Ireland. But there are some of course.

Hamachi

ELM327 wrote: »

Not very, imo.
People generally associate themselves with similar types of people (ie you don't have a CEO dating someone on the dole, for instance).
Generally people in relationships would be in similar life stages, similar career development, similar socio economic group etc. It's unlikely that there are many biracial couples in Ireland. But there are some of course.

Very true.

Anecdotally, the small number of interracial couples that I've met, have mostly been two non-Irish people. I have no idea why. Perhaps common experiences forged from adapting to a new society?

Tony EH

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm not one for conspiracy guff, but that illustration and the photo quoted are most certainly leading and misleading the public and in an all too obvious way. Though what was it that evil prick Goebbels said? "It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion" He also said "if you need to tell a lie, make it a big one, and stick to it" and "the man in the street is more simple than we may suppose, so propaganda must be simple and repeated often". Yep, that fits well enough.

Goebbels may have said something to that effect, but who he said it about is important. In this instance he was talking about the British and wasn't actually condoning "the big lie", which is often attributed to Hitler and the Nazis as something they approved of. This wasn't the case (the real lies of the Nazs notwithstanding of course).

"The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous."

https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/goeb29.htm

I've lost track of the amount of times that I've read, seen and heard "the big lie" idea tacked onto the Nazis during the Second World War. But I have never seen evidence of a reliable source and when it's used as a quotation, especially for Hitler, the caveat of who he was talking about is always left out and he wasn't speaking about them in a fond or admiring manner.




*Not having a go. It's just always interesting to me when I see it.

olestoepoke

Hamachi wrote: »

Not very common.

There's nothing wrong with interracial relationships. People are free to love who they choose. The reality on the ground is that the overwhelming majority of people (of all races) are in same-race relationships. This holds true even in the most multicultural parts of Dublin.

I know ill probably get slaughtered for saying this, and I know this is not representative of the entire country but any interracial relationships (black and white) I have seen or heard of are almost exclusively a black man with a white woman with the white woman not being very attractive (overweight etc)

James Brown

DrGreenThumb82 wrote: »

Which multicultural society are we trying to emulate?

Because if it is the U.S., France, Sweden or the UK then thanks but no thanks.

True the natives in the U.S. were treated very badly by the European immigrants.

ELM327

olestoepoke wrote: »

I know ill probably get slaughtered for saying this, and I know this is not representative of the entire country but any interracial relationships (black and white) I have seen or heard of are almost exclusively a black man with a white woman with the white woman not being very attractive (overweight etc)

Not very attractive... to you!
Different strokes. I know the point you're getting at but I don't think it's accurate IMO

olestoepoke

ELM327 wrote: »

Not very attractive... to you!
Different strokes. I know the point you're getting at but I don't think it's accurate IMO

I won't get into a "beauty is only skin deep" debate and yeah you're right it is different strokes. Maybe a better way to phrase it would be Irish girls that most Irish guys would not find attractive. Regarding accuracy, I did say it was in my experience and was not saying it was representative of the entire country. I based my comment on the couples I've seen when out and about shopping etc.

Phat Cat

olestoepoke wrote: »

I know ill probably get slaughtered for saying this, and I know this is not representative of the entire country but any interracial relationships (black and white) I have seen or heard of are almost exclusively a black man with a white woman with the white woman not being very attractive (overweight etc)

Overweight women are considered attractive in some parts of Africa.

In regards to mixed race advertisements, it's nothing new in Ireland. I remember seeing a TV ad for the National Lottery around 10 years ago, it had boats shooting water over the Liffey to create a rainbow and it feature a few shots of mixed race couples (black guy w/ white girl) admiring the spectacle. I haven't seen it in ages but it stuck in my mind at how forced it came across even back then.

Wibbs

Geuze wrote: »

This is what I don't like.

The media/Irish Times/Civil service in this case, are trying to make us accept it.

Do the Japanese childcare posters have Celtic children in them, or Mexican children?

Irish Times / RTE, St. Patrick's Day - African child in photo - I wonder if I go to the national public holiday in Turkey, will the local media have a photograph of a Bolivian child, or a British child?

These people seem to want an end to the nation-state, they seem to hate nationalism?

If I land into China, am I Chinese? Obviously not.

Yet an African who arrives here, is labelled "new-Irish" by RTE/Irish Times.

Because and like I've noted before; only White culture seems to require "diversity" according to the multiculturalist credo. The same multiculturalists would have a fit if any of their rank were to suggest that what an African or Asian nation truly needs to be better as a society is more White people. Never gonna happen. And they'd be right to think it an idiocy, but Europeans, yep they need it.

I don't know where this idiocy springs from. Maybe a holdover from orientalism where the "foreign" was seen as quaint and novel? Maybe - and more likely - this White guilt idiocy and a feeling of reparations are in order towards the darker of skin because of how awful White people were in the past. And again it's always just White people. Everyone else, no matter how awful they acted, and no "race" is immune to this, they get a free pass. Which in many ways is condescending racism. The hint that that only White people have the moral authority and understanding to know when they're being awful so when they are awful it's somehow worse. When non White oppression is observed it's either ignored, suggested that it's a local cultural thing, so none of your business really, or again Whitey was/is to blame somewhere in the mix.

There's even a hierarchy to this too, just like in overt racism of the usual stripe. So Asians being awful is generally judged more harshly than Africans being so. The former are assumed to know better, to be more "civilised", so it's somehow worse.

wildeside

Some of the the problems with multiculturalism I see are: 1) It's perceived as an elitist ideology (which it is by definition) as it's not an organic social movement of the people. Therefore if often fails to gain legitimacy amongst large sections of the populace 2) It's quite utopian as evidenced by real attempts to suppress dissenting voices largely through self-cencorship e.g. by using admonishments such 'racist', 'xenophobe' etc 3) It ignores context i.e. people, place, time, culture. e.g. American (new world) multi-culturalism is not the same as Irish(old world) multi-culturalism, what's good for the goose is not neccessarily good for the gander 5) It's not clear that it's even worked in the new world, there are very definite and volatile lines of stratification around issues of race and political belief 4) By definition there will always be an in-group (host nation/culture) and multiple out-groups. There are always in-group preferences/biases amongst all groups, human nature. Out-groups then variously feel aggreived at sometimes real and sometimes perceived discriminatory acts or attitudes. There is often no real way to discern the real vs the imaginary discrimination (e.g. interview selection). Greivance mindset and/or polictics can then ensue and before long there are '*ists' and '*phobes' under every bed 5) It's not self-evident and beyond all reasonable doubt that multiculturalism is somehow "better" than monoculturalism. The theory has not been "proven" in any meaningful sense. It is therefore closer to a religion than a (social/political/economic) science and its adovcates can often bare the hallmarks of religious zealouts (shouts of heretic!) 6) Frigging around with the engine on a aeroplane is complicated. Frigging around with massively complex people and then societies even more so and may yield unexpected results. Some acceptance of this fact and humility wouldn't go astray but is largely absent in utopian style thinking 7) It's intentions appear to be good and often are but you know what they say about the road to hell. 8) Some would argue the intentions behind it are not always good, that it is a philosophy based in hatred, of the west specifically. Any ideology rooted in hatred, even partially, is dangerous when expressed fully. 9) It injects extra complexity into an already extremely complex world which many people struggle to adapt to 10) The change per-se is not the real issue, it's the rate of change people are experiencing. e.g. if you left Ireland 20 years ago and returned home now it would appear to be a very different place. 20 years is nothing in human evolutionary terms and if the rate of change were lower more people would adapt more easily. Not everyone wants this rate of change and it can be argued that it's unnatural in evolutionary terms 11) It's not clear that international travel can't give you the majority of benefits of multi-culturalism 12) It's not clear to most people what the benefits are or what they are supposed to be. 13) When times are bad the cracks start to appear

mouldybiscuits

I have no problem with immigration. I think it's a great thing to have a mix of different cultures here. People are just trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. I don't believe that convicted criminals from other countries should be allowed to enter Ireland though. And also if someone hasn't worked here then they shouldn't be entitled to social welfare here, that's ridiculous.

Wibbs

mouldybiscuits wrote: »

I think it's a great thing to have a mix of different cultures here.

Why? Genuine question. People will say it's a great thing but tend not to dig much deeper than that surface. Indeed for many it's a nebulous positive that doesn't go much beyond new foodstuffs in Tesco. What are the benefits? What are the negatives? If people fully integrate then what has changed in the culture? If they don't then how is that a positive for the culture? Does more cultures in a nation increase or decrease social issues and fault lines along those different cultures? Would you say the same thing about say Tanzania and suggest it would be better with many more Europeans and Asians in the population? Indeed Tanzania is already multicultural with more languages spoken than most places on Earth and does alright in this regard, but 99% of the population are Black African. Things were less great when the White Germans and then the British were running the place.

Hamachi

wildeside wrote: »

10) The change per-se is not the real issue, it's the rate of change people are experiencing. e.g. if you left Ireland 20 years ago and returned home now it would appear to be a very different place. 20 years is nothing in human evolutionary terms and it the rate of change were lower more people would adapt more easily. Not everyone wants this rate of change and it can be argued that it's unnatural in evolutionary terms 11) It's not clear that international travel can't give you the majority of benefits of multi-culturalism 12) It's not clear to most people what the benefits are or what they are supposed to be. 13) When times are bad the cracks start to appear

All great points. However #10 resonates particularly with me. The pace of demographic change in Ireland is disorienting. We’ve gone from a scenario where ~5% of the population was of immigrant background in the late ‘90s to 16-17% today. That’s an incredible increase in just two decades.

Immigration as a phenomenon is mostly a good thing. It brings new skills, fresh outlooks, and can prevent a society from stagnating. The proviso here is that Ireland needs to be receiving the right caliber of immigrant and the rate of increase needs to be strictly controlled to ensure social cohesion.

Personally, I find the media narrative that Ireland has always been multiracial, to be particularly tiresome. This is total revisionism and simply isn’t true. I’m still in my 30s and grew up in a mid-sized town in the west. I never actually saw an African or South Asian person until a school trip to Dublin in my mid-teens. It’s a blatant attempt to suppress legitimate concerns about the breakneck pace of change.

Sean.3516

RyanthePirate wrote: »

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Free movement of labour is a great thing for any economy. If there are job vacancies that Irish people are either unwilling or unqualified to fill then it's only good sense that people from other countries should be able to come in and fill those jobs.

The main issue with immigration is that in countries with generous and liberal welfare states, the incentive structure becomes perverted such that immigrants may come in for the purpose of taking advantage of that system. These immigrants assimilate at much lower levels than other immigrants because they have no incentive to. Why should someone perfect their english, get a job, improve their skills, engage with the community and encourage their children to do the same if they are capable of subsisting on a government guaranteed check? This is why communities of immigrants will become "ghettoised". These 'ghettos' breed resentment both internally and externally and its at this point that social cohesion suffers and multiculturalism becomes a big problem.

This is why immigrants to the US in the late 19th century had higher levels of assimilation than any immigrants in history. Because there was no welfare state. When you arrived, you had to learn English and get a job or you starved. Turns out that's one hell of an incentive to assimilate.

Hamachi

mouldybiscuits wrote: »

I have no problem with immigration. I think it's a great thing to have a mix of different cultures here.

It’s far more nuanced than that. The only true tangible benefit is when highly qualified immigrants arrive to plug skills gaps in the economy.

However, on a societal level, immigrants either integrate or they don’t. If they integrate, essentially they become Irish. Otherwise, they tend to retreat into their own communities, the entrenched, parallel societies evident in Germany and other EU countries.

Apart from the economic benefits of a specific cohort of immigration, I don’t see any objective reason why immigration is a ‘great’ thing in and of itself.