What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Oh.. and for those who are surprised by my posting... I'm SO sorry that I've disappointed you. :rolleyes:

biko

I wrote in another thread that 57% of French Muslims thinks Sharia law supersedes French law.

It's not just France either.
In US, UK, Germany etc it's the same.
https://youtu.be/pHQWezK1ccY

That prompted me to look at Ireland
2006
Top Muslim scholar Ali Selim, Islamic Cultural Centre in Clonskeagh - "Sharia law should rule Ireland in the event of a Muslim majority".
Ali Selim was Secretary-General of the Irish Council of Imams at the time he said this.
Irish Council of Imams represents all imams in the Republic of Ireland and has the authority to speak on behalf of all the country's Muslims.

The Muslim population is as below, Irish converts negligible.
1991 3,873 —
2002 19,147 +394.4%
2011 48,130 +151.4%
2016 63,443 +31.8%
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/most-muslims-want-sharia-law-to-hold-sway-in-their-countries-says-survey-1.1378393

jmreire

biko wrote: »

I wrote in another thread that 57% of French Muslims thinks Sharia law supersedes French law.

It's not just France either.
In US, UK, Germany etc it's the same.
https://youtu.be/pHQWezK1ccY

That prompted me to look at Ireland
2006
Top Muslim scholar Ali Selim, Islamic Cultural Centre in Clonskeagh - "Sharia law should rule Ireland in the event of a Muslim majority".
Ali Selim was Secretary-General of the Irish Council of Imams at the time he said this.
Irish Council of Imams represents all imams in the Republic of Ireland and has the authority to speak on behalf of all the country's Muslims.

The Muslim population is as below, Irish converts negligible.
1991 3,873 —
2002 19,147 +394.4%
2011 48,130 +151.4%
2016 63,443 +31.8%
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/most-muslims-want-sharia-law-to-hold-sway-in-their-countries-says-survey-1.1378393

For the last 1400 odd years, Islam has been in expansion mode...and it has never stopped..never. Sometimes in History. it has receded, but always it try's to expand. And its happening world wide every where its allowed to and especially in Democratic Country's like the EU. Islam does not integrate. by its very nature, it cannot. To fully integrate would mean abandoning at least some of its Islam principles. So yes they will " do in Rome as the Roman's do" when in a non-Islamic Country. But a true Muslim will never give up his Religion. And whenever possible in the their new Country, they will be very vocal in demanding changes to suit their belief's. It's happening here in Ireland.

SchrodingersCat

Kivaro wrote: »

I honestly thought it was a different Klaz that was posting e.g. Klaaz or someone like that, and had to double-check that it was the poster above. A bit surprised alright.

I know, its so surprising that someone doesn't share your view of tarring minorities with the same brush /s.

Gervais08

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Where is the blame? I said that they were foolish. You said that they were foolish. Kivaro is seeking to remove all responsibility from victims and pass it elsewhere. I don't agree with that. We should be encouraging a world where people are responsible for their own behavior/choices, not giving them a free pass. It doesn't mean that the perpetrator is being excused for what they did.

The claim of Victim blaming is dangerous because it's often used to pass responsibility away and to set others up for abuse. We've seen this happen with women who have been assaulted, where the circumstances of the assault have no importance because the women were victims. No lessons to be learned. No suggestion that women take care of themselves, but rather, the focus is entirely placed elsewhere. And the same will happen here with this scam, or other scams that will occur in the future.

How were they foolish?

That’s your judgment and cruel it is too.

They could have dementia, and believe me that is something you would not wish on anyone.

Gervais08

Gervais08 wrote: »

How were they foolish?

That’s your judgment and cruel it is too.

They could have dementia, and believe me that is something you would not wish on anyone.

So, I guess you're not going to back up your earlier statement, then?

As for being cruel, in what way is it cruel? More emotional rubbish. I'm not calling them fools to their faces. I'm on a discussion board talking with people who have no involvement with the case.

They were foolish to give money to someone that they hadn't fully checked out. Simple enough.

Gervais08

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So, I guess you're not going to back up your earlier statement, then?

As for being cruel, in what way is it cruel? More emotional rubbish. I'm not calling them fools to their faces. I'm on a discussion board talking with people who have no involvement with the case.

They were foolish to give money to someodne that they hadn't fully checked out. Simple enough.

Might come as a crushing blow to you but Copernicus called and the world doesn’t revolve around you.

You blamed the victims and called them fools. I see nothing to retract and I back up nothing - I used your own words.

Gervais08

Gervais08 wrote: »

Might come as a crushing blow to you but Copernicus called and the world doesn’t revolve around you.

You blamed the victims and called them fools. I see nothing to retract and I back up nothing - I used your own words.

Gervais08 wrote:

One of the most sickening things I have read on here has to be siding with scum who swingle the elderly and vulnerable.

My own words. Then it should be easy for you to quote where I sided with the Romanian. Hell, I'll make it even easier for you, where did I defend the Romanian? Shouldn't be so hard for you to quote me since you supposedly used my own words.

And how exactly did I blame the victims? I called them foolish for what happened. It was Kivaro who made the case for victim blaming, and nowhere in my posts did I "blame" the people involved. They didn't deserve for this to happen to them... but at the same time, they shouldn't have fallen for it. My opinion. Gosh, that's so difficult to tolerate.

Ten of Swords

Gervais08, Klaz and Kivaro take it down a notch please

Sand

In regards to the scamming, its well understood that elderly people are vulnerable. There are campaigns regarding elder abuse, and indeed banks have recently launched campaigns to warn elderly people who may have given some financial power to people posing as good Samaritans during the COVID lockdowns. I actually have some admiration for the man who initially came forward - given the absolute humiliation of being so badly fooled, it would have been easier for him to simply kept silent rather than to have sought help. He would have anticipated the further humiliation of strangers thinking he was an idiot as he explained how he was conned. Having sought help, its clearly not the right reaction to blame the victim and wonder aloud how they could have been so stupid.

It should be understood that not everyone is cynical enough, and they still need protection. If everyone was strong enough, smart enough and rich enough to fend for themselves as rugged individuals then we'd have no need for each other. We aren't, we do.

I don't think the victims in this case got to the age they got to, with the money they had, by being complete fools who gave away money to anyone who asked for it. The criminal was clearly somewhat convincing in his hardluck tales, and given he was foreign he could sidestep much of the common sense prejudices they might have formed. State policy of mass migration put the elderly victims at risk of exploitation from groups they had no experience of, and indeed were encouraged to believe (by the state) were the best type of people.

And lets face it, he was scamming the state by drawing down *at least* 650 euros a week. Over 7 years, that's 236,600 euro. He scammed more from all of us Irish taxpayers than he did from either of these vulnerable people. And he is just one engineer/doctor/astronaut. The Irish state is lining up to welcome in tens of thousands of his ilk every year, with new plans to secure them houses after just 3 months of making landfall. He fooled these kindhearted elderly people that he was homeless and seeking cancer treatment. The mass migration industrial complex is fooling us that this con artist will pay our pensions. Who are the bigger fools? Should anyone be throwing stones at individuals while our government pursues these policies?

Sand

jmreire wrote: »

For the last 1400 odd years, Islam has been in expansion mode...and it has never stopped..never. Sometimes in History. it has receded, but always it try's to expand. And its happening world wide every where its allowed to and especially in Democratic Country's like the EU. Islam does not integrate. by its very nature, it cannot. To fully integrate would mean abandoning at least some of its Islam principles. So yes they will " do in Rome as the Roman's do" when in a non-Islamic Country. But a true Muslim will never give up his Religion. And whenever possible in the their new Country, they will be very vocal in demanding changes to suit their belief's. It's happening here in Ireland.

It never receded. It was forced back. Over the last 70 years, neoliberalism invited Islamic communities into European countries, confident that inside every human being there is a neoliberal trying to get out. They were wrong. Islamic peoples have their own heritage and culture and its hubris to believe they would abandon it for nothing more than McDonalds, Mickey Mouse and superhero movies.

But its a critical mistake to believe this is a problem unique to Islam or Muslims. That Islamic ethnic enclaves are bad, but other ethnic enclaves are okay. Ethnic conflict is inherent to multiculturalism. Islam just happens to be one of the combatants invited to contest European countries, but if it wasn't Islam it would be some other ethnicity.

Well, I'm going to stay out of the whole scam aspect of this. I'll be back when we start talking about multiculturalism again.

jmreire

Sand wrote: »

It never receded. It was forced back. Over the last 70 years, neoliberalism invited Islamic communities into European countries, confident that inside every human being there is a neoliberal trying to get out. They were wrong. Islamic peoples have their own heritage and culture and its hubris to believe they would abandon it for nothing more than McDonalds, Mickey Mouse and superhero movies.

But its a critical mistake to believe this is a problem unique to Islam or Muslims. That Islamic ethnic enclaves are bad, but other ethnic enclaves are okay. Ethnic conflict is inherent to multiculturalism. Islam just happens to be one of the combatants invited to contest European countries, but if it wasn't Islam it would be some other ethnicity.

You cannot compare Islam to other groups because they are nothing like. other groups. Islam has been around for the last 1'400 years with out major change. Not many other ethnic groups can say the same thing.But unlike other ethnic groups who over time will integrate, Muslims don't integrate.

Kivaro

Sand wrote: »

And lets face it, he was scamming the state by drawing down *at least* 650 euros a week. Over 7 years, that's 236,600 euro. He scammed more from all of us Irish taxpayers than he did from either of these vulnerable people.

Adding the over €330k that he scammed from the elderly Irish pensioners, plus the money he 'earned' as a professional beggar, the man took advantage of all the loopholes that exist in Ireland for people arriving in the country with nothing and becoming quite wealthy without the need to do an ounce of work here. And if he does the two years in jail, then that's another approx. €160,000 added to our tax bill. And that's just for one man.
One would have to wonder the scale of this type of fraud in the country by other non-nationals who come here with the sole purpose of abusing the system and the people.

On the Pro/Con aspect of it for multiculturalism in Ireland, my view is that it is a con (excuse the pun).

bigpink

Africans commiting crime in Ireland is racist now if you say it

Also the African community need to call out the bad eggs or else they will be the next Travellers

Wibbs

jmreire wrote: »

You cannot compare Islam to other groups because they are nothing like. other groups. Islam has been around for the last 1'400 years with out major change. Not many other ethnic groups can say the same thing.But unlike other ethnic groups who over time will integrate, Muslims don't integrate.

Not quite. Islam has had many differing faces throughout that time and varies quite a bit depending on the background culture. While the fundamentalism present in pretty much every faith has been around throughout its power, influence and attraction has ebbed and flowed by quite the measure. There is quite the difference between say Serbian and Malay and Saudi Muslims.

Even over the last hundred years it has come and gone and come again. Much if not all of it over the last hundred years has come in on the back of politics, most of it because of external politics and the various superpowers fighting over access to oil.

If you took a time machine back to the 1950's and 60's and visited places like Egypt, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, you'd find a very different "Islam" in play. This struck me recently from an odd source... The recent death of Sean Connery reminded me I had a DVD set(old skool.. ) of his James Bond outings. I got it as a gift just about when DVD's were going out of fashion so hadn't watched it. So I thought feck it I'd have a look. Man they were hokey flics. Anyway, one that I didn't remember much about was "From Russia with Love". No cool cars or gadgets, but it was set in Istanbul which would have been fierce exotic for audiences of the time. No headscarves or the like to be seen anywhere in the street shots(you'd probably see more in Ireland back then as a fashion thing). Today there would be much more of that going on, though even today Istanbul wouldn't be close to somewhere like Riyadh.

Fundamentalism tends to come to the boil because of stresses to a culture, often external stresses, where "the old ways" are felt to be safer, more solid and more binding for a community*. Geopolitics is one such stress, as is multiculturalism failing. With many of the Muslim faith they've looked down both of those barrels and over a couple of generations.








*we can see some of that going on with Irish Catholicism. When we were a put upon oppressed colony of London we clung to that faith like a drowning man clings to a lump of wood. And continued to cling to that when we went to immigrant regions of European colonies. When Ireland became more sure of herself and the old who had remembered the oppression died off we dropped it like a shot. We went from one of the most "conservative" faith influenced nations in Europe to one of the most "progressive" in little more than a generation. Irish Americans are now more Catholic than the Irish, because it still has purpose as a community thing.

jmreire

Yes, Wibbs, I fully agree that Islam varies from Country to Country, with say Saudi Wahibbism at the centre of "hard" Islam, and Balkan version being the most "Light" version. isis and taliban are in a category all by them selves, nonethe less, they use the Quran to justify their atrocities' , even when challenged by their fellow Muslims. The problem is not the majority of Muslims, but the minority who follow / use hard core Islam, and they can be found anywhere in the World, at any time throughout history. A colleague of mine, a Muslim ( and good friend too ) from Sarajevo was telling me recently that he has moved his family from Sarajevo to Spilt, and all because of hard core Islam being pushed by some fanatical Muslims who stayed on after the war. And he see's trouble ahead. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, when the Muslim world went into a frenzy because of what Macron was saying ( and needed to be said ) some (but not all) Muslim colleagues of mine, people who I had shared good and bad time's with, went into the very same frenzy. The main problem with Islam and Muslims as I see it, is what's written in the Quran. Its peppered with violence and death.And throughout history, thats the way it has always been, it just depends on which version is being pushed. by those in the driving seat. And this is what we have to live with.I've been very lucky to have met some great people over the years, and a lot of them have been Muslims. For the most part they were true Muslims, and were horrified by what they see as hi-jacking of Islam. I've been in Turkey too, and found that it was pretty mixed culture, but not in anyway restrictive for non-muslims, something Erdogan seems hell bent on changing.He wants to be the founder of a new Ottoman age. Kemal Ataturk is spinning in his grave.

McHardcore

Just to add to the benefits of Multiculturalism: BioNTec, the company partnered with Pfizer that created the new Covid vaccine, is run by the son and daughter of Turkish immigrants in Germany.

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-biontech-ceo-newsmake-idUSKBN27P1O5

John Doe1

McHardcore wrote: »

Just to add to the benefits of Multiculturalism: BioNTec, the company partnered with Pfizer that created the new Covid vaccine, is run by the son and daughter of Turkish immigrants in Germany.

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-biontech-ceo-newsmake-idUSKBN27P1O5

Very impressive,

However, seeing as there a grand total of 3 Islamic winners of Nobel prize in Science in 130 years, they have a way to go yet...

John Doe1

Further to my previous comment, a source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_Nobel_laureates#:~:text=Two%20Muslims%20have%20been%20given%20the%20Nobel%20Prize%20in%20Chemistry.&text=The%201999%20Nobel%20Prize%20in,and%20the%20second%20Muslim%20scientist.

Compare that with Ireland which has had 2 nobel prize winners in Science......

Gervais08

John Doe1 wrote: »

Further to my previous comment, a source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_Nobel_laureates#:~:text=Two%20Muslims%20have%20been%20given%20the%20Nobel%20Prize%20in%20Chemistry.&text=The%201999%20Nobel%20Prize%20in,and%20the%20second%20Muslim%20scientist.

Compare that with Ireland which has had 2 nobel prize winners in Science......

And a ****load in Literature while the backwards cult burn books and threaten authors. We’re good.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/09/eu-draft-declaration-sets-out-stricter-rules-on-migrant-integration

"Migrants to Europe must learn the language of their new home countries and encourage their children to integrate in the light of the recent Islamist terror attacks, EU governments plan to say in a declaration drafted by France, Austria and Germany."

"NGOs publishing “content hostile to integration will be excluded from receiving” state support under the terms of the resolution."

"“Along with recognition of European values, what successful integration means above all is learning the language of one’s new country, earning a living for oneself and for one’s family, and supporting the integration of one’s children …"

McHardcore

John Doe1 wrote: »

Very impressive,

However, seeing as there a grand total of 3 Islamic winners of Nobel prize in Science in 130 years, they have a way to go yet...

I find it strange that you would attempt to counter my point with giving a stat on a) Religion and b) The Nobel prize for science, when the original point was in the area of Medicine and didn't mention religion.

But hey, if you want to go the Noble prize route:

Gervais08

McHardcore wrote: »

I find it strange that you would attempt to counter my point with giving a stat on a) Religion and b) The Nobel prize for science, when the original point was in the area of Medicine and didn't mention religion.

But hey, if you want to go the Noble prize route:

How many Nazi scientists are in that list tho ???

McHardcore

Gervais08 wrote: »

How many Nazi scientists are in that list tho ???

I assume you mean immigrants from Germany? These would have helped multiculturalism to America, if that is what you mean. They were badly discriminated at the time too.

John Doe1

McHardcore wrote: »

I find it strange that you would attempt to counter my point with giving a stat on a) Religion and b) The Nobel prize for science, when the original point was in the area of Medicine and didn't mention religion.

But hey, if you want to go the Noble prize route:

What a disingenuous response, you made a point about the benefits of multiculturalism due to the success of 2nd gen turks (who are inevitably of an Islamic cultural background) in medical research which is very much science.

I responded by showing you that those of an Islamic cultural background have been way behind in this field so maybe your example is not representative.

A more representative picture would be the images shared on Twitter recently of Turks in Germany shouting Allah Akhbar and attacking the Armenian Christian community

Not to mention the ghettoisation and high levels of criminality of that community

Gentlemanne

John Doe1 wrote: »

A more representative picture would be the images shared on Twitter recently

Why do so many people on this board assume that everyone elses twitter feed is full of ****e purely meant to stir up xenophobia and race hatred

jmreire

McHardcore wrote: »

Just to add to the benefits of Multiculturalism: BioNTec, the company partnered with Pfizer that created the new Covid vaccine, is run by the son and daughter of Turkish immigrants in Germany.

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-biontech-ceo-newsmake-idUSKBN27P1O5

Sure, and they are welcome, and if all immigrants / asylum seekers were like that ( or even half like that) we would not be having the kind of problems that we are having. Unfortunately, that's not the case though. The "bad news" episodes far outnumber the success stories.

Cordell

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/09/eu-draft-declaration-sets-out-stricter-rules-on-migrant-integration

"Migrants to Europe must learn the language of their new home countries and encourage their children to integrate in the light of the recent Islamist terror attacks, EU governments plan to say in a declaration drafted by France, Austria and Germany."

"NGOs publishing “content hostile to integration will be excluded from receiving” state support under the terms of the resolution."

"“Along with recognition of European values, what successful integration means above all is learning the language of one’s new country, earning a living for oneself and for one’s family, and supporting the integration of one’s children …"

About fukin time.

Wibbs

jmreire wrote: »

Sure, and they are welcome, and if all immigrants / asylum seekers were like that ( or even half like that) we would not be having the kind of problems that we are having. Unfortunately, that's not the case though. The "bad news" episodes far outnumber the success stories.

This. There are many legal immigrants doing very well in their new chosen countries and contributing to society in many fields, ditto for their kids, including in Ireland. Some demographics do better than others though. In the above Nobel graphic you can be 99% sure none of the immigrant base were the illegal and quasi legal lot we were saddled with at the turn of the century. Plus the US is a nation built on immigration and their universities in particular are chock full of same, invited in, often for the cash money they bring with them. They're not crossing the US border by boat.

Oh and those BioNTec folks who are the children of Turkish immigrants? Their parents were almost certainly legal immigrants recruited by the German government from Turkey because the German "economic miracle" was running out of workers in the 1960's and Germany signed a deal with Turkey to recruit there. Merkel's more recent welcome to the newest crop of refugees had a not dissimilar reasoning as Germany is getting older. And that's going well...

And it's been a mixed experience for German Turks ever since. Hell they couldn't even become citizens until what 2000? Germany operated an almost completely opposite law to the one we thankfully got rid of in 2004, that is being born in Germany didn't mean citizenship, you had to be German.

And as for integration into Germany. Have an oul read of this report from 2009 from one of Germany's state broadcasters.

A new study published on Monday shows that Turks are the least integrated group of immigrants in German society and are also less successful than immigrants from other countries in securing a job in Germany.

On a sliding scale of one (poorly integrated) to eight (well integrated), the report by the Berlin Institute for Population and Development shows that Turkish immigrants came last with a score of 2.4 despite being the second most numerous immigrant group in the country.

They finished bottom of the table behind immigrants from the former Yugoslavia and Africa (3.2), the Middle East (4.1), southern Europe (4.4) and the Far East (4.6).

The most integrated group in Germany, according to the Berlin institute, is immigrants from other EU countries who score 5.5 on the institute's index.

Oh look, well I never, pretty much the same narratives of who tends to integrate and be more successful are in play regarding integration like they are across multicultural Europe.

So while those folks are rightfully to be lauded from on high, using Germany and German Turks as a good example of the positives of multiculturalism is more than a little naive, even daft. If anything the more you look into things the more it reinforces many of the negatives of this politic.