What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

ThewhiteJesus

I prefer to deal with people like me, look more or less like me, and sound like me.
It just makes life easier and nothing personal against anyone, don't all cultures and nationalities stick together ?
If i can't no problem, but in answer to the op, i would prefer dealing with our own if possible

Sean.3516

nthclare wrote: »

Immigration suits the middle class so called liberals.
Under the guise of caring, what they're really doing is giving people jobs, with **** wage's therefore undermining the immigrant and undermining the natives because they won't work for **** pay.

So don't believe these vankers and so called woke plebs who are all for immigration etc

They exploit the vulnerable people because the Irish won't allow themselves to be exploited.

If we're going to talk about slave wages it's important to ask the question that any sensible economist asks "compared to what?"

If someone comes here from another country to work for what we would call "slave wages", one can only imagine what conditions were like in the countries they came from. When someone comes from destitution and poverty with no qualifications into Western country, they have to start somewhere. And if the job is a job that the average Irish person is vastly overqualified for but nevertheless a job that needs doing, I fail the see the economic sense in preventing that job from being filled.

Also, people who insist on a living wage aren't doing any favours to people on the bottom of the ladder, often they're just incentivising employers to re-locate to countries where people would be glad of what we call "slave wages".

Dyr

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Free movement of labour is a great thing for any economy. If there are job vacancies that Irish people are either unwilling or unqualified to fill then it's only good sense that people from other countries should be able to come in and fill those jobs.

It's a terrible thing, it allows wages to stagnate or decline by giving capital an endless supply of labour, especially cheap labour that undercuts the poorest citizens.

Clarence Boddiker

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Free movement of labour is a great thing for any economy. If there are job vacancies that Irish people are either unwilling or unqualified to fill then it's only good sense that people from other countries should be able to come in and fill those jobs.

There are 500k people out of work at the moment, that argument is dead in the water post-Covid

Cal4567

Saw a few mixed race couples in England but to honest, not that many. If you watch any UK TV drama of the last few years, more than half of the couples are mixed race which to me looks ridiculously above the average. Or is that 'colour blind casting'? Is it just trying to act progressive by giving parts to black actors?

Sean.3516

Bambi wrote: »

It's a terrible thing, it allows wages to stagnate or decline by giving capital an endless supply of labour, especially cheap labour that undercuts the poorest citizens.

That reasoning assumes that all jobs should be considered equally which they shouldn't be. Not every job that would be filled by an immigrant would otherwise be filled by an Irish person. Certain jobs are undesirable (even for the poor in this country) because Ireland has a highly qualified workforce. These jobs still need to be filled for the good of the whole economy. For example, it's important to the whole economy that fruit companies have people to pick fruit for them, because it's important that Ireland can produce affordable fruit. However very few people in Ireland are willing to pick fruit because most of them are overqualified for it and would make more money doing something else. Is there any good reason why this job should not be filled by an immigrant willing to do the work?

As regards average national wage levels, these may be useful statistics for comparing different countries but it's of no relevance to the individual worker in a particular sector because an influx of foreign fruit pickers is not going to drive down wages for people in Tesco, McDonald's or Google. In fact it may benefit workers at Tesco if Tesco has access to cheaper fruit and therefore has more money to pay its workers.

Stateofyou

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

I prefer to deal with people like me, look more or less like me, and sound like me.
It just makes life easier and nothing personal against anyone, don't all cultures and nationalities stick together ?
If i can't no problem, but in answer to the op, i would prefer dealing with our own if possible

I've actually never seen anyone come straight out and say yep, I am biased towards people different than me - most people try to hide it or at least work on being more open-minded and fair. Yeah, life is "easier" in that way as you're never 'inconvenienced' or pushed to grow beyond the familiarity and comfort of your own little bubble. But comfort is a slow death imo.

I think having diverse colleagues and friends has enriched my life. I have wonderful friends from all corners. It has grown me as a person, and I've gotten to know more of the world and ways of life and it's people which is interesting to me. I think you're missing out. And hopefully you're not in charge of any hiring within your company. Is that how we would want Irish treated whilst abroad, or our own selves, family and friends? People move around for all kinds of reasons, and being shut out of opportunities whether financially or socially because of prejudice is just wrong. Not every Irish person is sound either - get to know the person first.

biko

Cal4567 wrote: »

Saw a few mixed race couples in England but to honest, not that many. If you watch any UK TV drama of the last few years, more than half of the couples are mixed race which to me looks ridiculously above the average. Or is that 'colour blind casting'? Is it just trying to act progressive by giving parts to black actors?

It's a strategy.
Of course East Asians are overlooked. I guess the black lobby is stronger.

East Asian actors are rarely cast in non-race specific roles, and are frequently expected to put on a Chinese accent when acting, and yet many producers consider "Yellowface" - casting white actors as Chinese characters - to be acceptable, she adds.

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-42859476

Sean.3516

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

There are 500k people out of work at the moment, that argument is dead in the water post-Covid

Well, we're in the middle of an unprecedented once in a century "Black Swan" event. Never in history has there been government enforced shutdowns of national economies the world over.

Like any event like this whether of artificial causes or natural economic causes for example: World War II, The Great Depression, the Industrial Revolution, there is going to be a period of adjustment where people are figuring out how to operate in the "New World". But once that adjustment is over, basic rules of economics will still apply as they always have.

Hamachi

Stateofyou wrote: »

I think having diverse colleagues and friends has enriched my life. I have wonderful friends from all corners. It has grown me as a person, and I've gotten to know more of the world and ways of life and it's people which is interesting to me. I think you're missing out. And hopefully you're not in charge of any hiring within your company. Is that how we would want Irish treated whilst abroad, or our own selves, family and friends? People move around for all kinds of reasons, and being shut out of opportunities whether financially or socially because of prejudice is just wrong. Not every Irish person is sound either - get to know the person first.

I’m not disagreeing with you. I think it’s important to remain open to different perspectives, ways of thinking, and friendship with people from diverse backgrounds. However, my experience on the ground is that this is mostly aspirational thinking.

My employer is an extremely diverse, progressive organization. The employee demographics are pretty much split 50:50 between Irish people and internationals. We are required to take annual anti-racism, unconscious bias etc... training. The outcome you would expect is that this fosters many cross-cultural friendships, right?

The reality is that it isn’t happening. The Irish people have gravitated towards one another, plus a couple of Europeans who are long established here. When impromptu nights out happen, these are the folks who tend to be invited and attend. Similarly, when the company organizes structured events, I know for a fact that many Irish people check the sign-up list before making the decision to attend or not.

I’m culpable here too. I invited a group of colleagues to my own wedding. It didn’t even occur to me to invite any of the internationals. Not because I’m inherently xenophobic or racist. I simply have little in common with many of them, outside of sharing the same workplace.

There is merit in what my employer is trying to do. It’s important to be respectful of different backgrounds and behave decently to others. However, fundamental human nature always asserts itself. Most people have a strong preference for being around others, with whom they share a common outlook and heritage. All the corporate training in the world will never override this basic human impulse.

wildeside

Stateofyou wrote: »

I've actually never seen anyone come straight out and say yep, I am biased towards people different than me - most people try to hide it or at least work on being more open-minded and fair. Yeah, life is "easier" in that way as you're never 'inconvenienced' or pushed to grow beyond the familiarity and comfort of your own little bubble. But comfort is a slow death imo.

I think having diverse colleagues and friends has enriched my life. I have wonderful friends from all corners. It has grown me as a person, and I've gotten to know more of the world and ways of life and it's people which is interesting to me. I think you're missing out. And hopefully you're not in charge of any hiring within your company. Is that how we would want Irish treated whilst abroad, or our own selves, family and friends? People move around for all kinds of reasons, and being shut out of opportunities whether financially or socially because of prejudice is just wrong. Not every Irish person is sound either - get to know the person first.

It's now well known and pretty widely accepted that in terms of human psychology some people are more "open" than others [Google "Big 5 personality traits"]. Some people are very conservativ in nature. Others are way out there and crave difference and novelty (such as myself). And this trait is on a spectrum, it's a matter of degrees. But you don't need science to tell you this, we all know this intuitively.


But neither position is morally superior to the other, they're just different manifestations of what it is to be human.



The problem I see is that if you're a more conservative type you don't have much of a choice to live a more conservative, less "diverse" life, even rural Ireland is being transformed. So now you have to either put up or shut up.


And as I said in a earlier post one of the big issues is the rate of change. We sat in caves for 5000 years not too long ago without much ever changing across milenia. Now we've got 200 nationalities and nearly as many genders , the cognitive load being placed on people might just be a little too much for some. I think we should be a little more tolerant of people's experience and concerns.

gibsmedat

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

I prefer to deal with people like me, look more or less like me, and sound like me.
It just makes life easier and nothing personal against anyone, don't all cultures and nationalities stick together ?
If i can't no problem, but in answer to the op, i would prefer dealing with our own if possible

Perfectly natural in group preference.

Stateofyou

Hamachi wrote: »

I’m not disagreeing with you. I think it’s important to remain open to different perspectives, ways of thinking, and friendship with people from diverse backgrounds. However, my experience on the ground is that this is mostly aspirational thinking.

My employer is an extremely diverse, progressive organization. The employee demographics are pretty much split 50:50 between Irish people and internationals. We are required to take annual anti-racism, unconscious bias etc... training. The outcome you would expect is that this fosters many cross-cultural friendships, right?

The reality is that it isn’t happening. The Irish people have gravitated towards one another, plus a couple of Europeans who are long established here. When impromptu nights out happen, these are the folks who tend to be invited and attend. Similarly, when the company organizes structured events, I know for a fact that many Irish people check the sign-up list before making the decision to attend or not.

I’m culpable here too. I invited a group of colleagues to my own wedding. It didn’t even occur to me to invite any of the internationals. Not because I’m inherently xenophobic or racist. I simply have little in common with many of them, outside of sharing the same workplace.

There is merit in what my employer is trying to do. It’s important to be respectful of different backgrounds and behave decently to others. However, fundamental human nature always asserts itself. Most people have a strong preference for being around others, with whom they share a common outlook and heritage. All the corporate training in the world will never override this basic human impulse.

Wondering if you see a theme above there in what you wrote? Foreign nationals not being invited, guest lists being scanned before deciding to attend, etc. You won't actually get to know any of those people either until a real effort is made. Yeah human nature is to be biased, but it doesn't have to get in the way of lovely friendships or colleagues, either. Also as humans, we can learn and grow. It's not about corporate training bridging the gap. It's great for awareness and all, but the only way you will actually make those friendships and share experiences and therefore become closer, is if there are invitations and effort.

Stateofyou

wildeside wrote: »

It's now well known and pretty widely accepted that in terms of human psychology some people are more "open" than others [Google "Big 5 personality traits"]. Some people are very conservativ in nature. Others are way out there and crave difference and novelty (such as myself). And this trait is on a spectrum, it's a matter of degrees. But you don't need science to tell you this, we all know this intuitively.


But neither position is morally superior to the other, they're just different manifestations of what it is to be human.



The problem I see is that if you're a more conservative type you don't have much of a choice to live a more conservative, less "diverse" life, even rural Ireland is being transformed. So now you have to either put up or shut up.


And as I said in a earlier post one of the big issues is the rate of change. We sat in caves for 5000 years not too long ago without much ever changing across milenia. Now we've got 200 nationalities and nearly as many genders , the cognitive load being placed on people might just be a little too much for some. I think we should be a little more tolerant of people's experience and concerns.

So now we're going to justify close-mindedness and bias due to ancient humans thousands of years ago causing a huge mental load strain today? hahaha thanks for the laugh, really enjoyed this comment!
While people may have different personalities and preferences, all I'm saying is that at the end of the day we're all humans. Strip away some of those differences (or nationalities) and deep down we all have the same basic needs. There's something to be said for looking for commonalities as humans and appreciating differences instead of fearing or rejecting them. If you've ever lived abroad, this is probably more obvious. As a stranger and foreigner in another country, you want and need to be accepted and included and given the same opportunities to support yourself and/or your family. I've enjoyed the absolute SH!T out of being a foreigner, because I was accepted (and maybe my skin colour had something to do with it if we're being honest) and I've been so lucky in the amazing friendships I've had along the way and those I met here in Ireland too. I've learned that the teachings in my childhood or country aren't the only way or even the best way in all things.

Stateofyou

gibsmedat wrote: »

Perfectly natural in group preference.

Someone earlier said something along the lines of well, it's illegal here in Ireland to hire discriminately, so what's your point.

This. The poster's opinion which is far too common especially in hiring. This is my point.

I Am Nobody

People would be amazed at how much they have in common with others from far off places.My best mate is from Pakistan with a wicked sense of humour much like my own.Now to his credit,he came here on a work authorization and did try to fit in with us,but we both knew everyone else kept him at arms length when it came to parties,gatherings,etc.

So when genuine immigrants come to our shores,they don't know what to expect from the natives.It is all foreign to them as well,but like the old saying goes,a little kindness goes along way.

Now I also know there are those who are more radical and aggressive,and expect everyone to bow down to them.Those are the types no host country needs and they should be fcuked off back to their own countries,IMO.

Wibbs

Stateofyou wrote: »

I've enjoyed the absolute SH!T out of being a foreigner, because I was accepted (and maybe my skin colour had something to do with it if we're being honest)

I would say your skin colour made a huge difference. As a White person I'm generally going to find it easier to navigate through say White France than a Black French person whose family has been there for generations. You could say the same for any skin colour grouping you like. Beyond the novelty factor I'm going to generally find it harder to navigate say Black Ugandan society than the same Black French guy will. He'll simply "fit in" and be less "visible" than Me. Now of course you get crisis points up to all out belligerence within "race" groups. Our own history shows that and recent history in the North of our Ireland a good illustration, but add in skin tone differences and those lines tend to be drawn much more starkly.

ArchXStanton

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

I prefer to deal with people like me, look more or less like me, and sound like me.
It just makes life easier and nothing personal against anyone, don't all cultures and nationalities stick together ?
If i can't no problem, but in answer to the op, i would prefer dealing with our own if possible

They do as evident by numerous Facebook groups, Ukrainians in Ireland, Brazilians in Ireland, Russians, Croats etc etc

Hamachi

Stateofyou wrote: »

Wondering if you see a theme above there in what you wrote? Foreign nationals not being invited, guest lists being scanned before deciding to attend, etc. You won't actually get to know any of those people either until a real effort is made. Yeah human nature is to be biased, but it doesn't have to get in the way of lovely friendships or colleagues, either. Also as humans, we can learn and grow. It's not about corporate training bridging the gap. It's great for awareness and all, but the only way you will actually make those friendships and share experiences and therefore become closer, is if there are invitations and effort.

My post was intentionally written that way to highlight this theme. My point is that very many people simply are not interested in bridging the cultural divide or forging lovely friendships with international colleagues or acquaintances. The willingness isn’t there.

As another poster pointed out, there’s a continuum here. You clearly fall on one extreme of the spectrum. However, a large % of people hold a diametrically opposite world view to you. They revel in the familiar and naturally gravitate to what’s known and comfortable.

Neither perspective is right nor wrong. It just is. People have different priorities and world views; any attempt to re-educate or moralize will just cause them to become more entrenched. Whilst shared experiences and lovely friendships are aspirational, I’m afraid a large cohort of people simply aren’t interested and will always default to the familiar.

ThewhiteJesus

Stateofyou wrote: »

I've actually never seen anyone come straight out and say yep, I am biased towards people different than me - most people try to hide it or at least work on being more open-minded and fair. Yeah, life is "easier" in that way as you're never 'inconvenienced' or pushed to grow beyond the familiarity and comfort of your own little bubble. But comfort is a slow death imo.

I think having diverse colleagues and friends has enriched my life. I have wonderful friends from all corners. It has grown me as a person, and I've gotten to know more of the world and ways of life and it's people which is interesting to me. I think you're missing out. And hopefully you're not in charge of any hiring within your company. Is that how we would want Irish treated whilst abroad, or our own selves, family and friends? People move around for all kinds of reasons, and being shut out of opportunities whether financially or socially because of prejudice is just wrong. Not every Irish person is sound either - get to know the person first.

It's just called honesty, we are all entitled to our opinion.
I won't however, try and force my opinion on you.

wildeside

Stateofyou wrote: »

So now we're going to justify close-mindedness and bias due to ancient humans thousands of years ago causing a huge mental load strain today? hahaha thanks for the laugh, really enjoyed this comment!
While people may have different personalities and preferences, all I'm saying is that at the end of the day we're all humans. Strip away some of those differences (or nationalities) and deep down we all have the same basic needs. There's something to be said for looking for commonalities as humans and appreciating differences instead of fearing or rejecting them. If you've ever lived abroad, this is probably more obvious. As a stranger and foreigner in another country, you want and need to be accepted and included and given the same opportunities to support yourself and/or your family. I've enjoyed the absolute SH!T out of being a foreigner, because I was accepted (and maybe my skin colour had something to do with it if we're being honest) and I've been so lucky in the amazing friendships I've had along the way and those I met here in Ireland too. I've learned that the teachings in my childhood or country aren't the only way or even the best way in all things.

I'm not justifying closed-mindedness. I'm simply laying out the fact that some people are more "conservative" as opposed to "open" than others (I'm very much on the "open" end) and that the current rate of change might not be optimal for a successful outcome (just look at what is happening in Europe with the rise of the far-right, we should look at this phenomena seriously). The demographic changes we are seeing are unprecedented in modern memory, the effects of which are complex.



I've been incredibly lucky to have travelled the world from the west coast of America to as far as the Far East and many, many places in-between. I've lived in several big international cities all of my adult life, I don't come from a rural background.


I really do know that people are just people at the end of the day. But I also know that's an over-simplification. Humans are tribal and in order to form a cohesive functioning unit, that does not tear itself apart, needs a certain amount of shared identity & culture (e.g. language, values, history[?] etc).


The shared identity that was once taken as a given is now being challenged and questioned through the forces of globalisation.


That will prompt people to question things they might never have had to think much (or as much) about before. And it's fair enough to ask those questions.

olestoepoke

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

I prefer to deal with people like me, look more or less like me, and sound like me.
It just makes life easier and nothing personal against anyone, don't all cultures and nationalities stick together ?
If i can't no problem, but in answer to the op, i would prefer dealing with our own if possible

I lived in NY city for many years which is regarded as a cultural melting pot. I enjoyed meeting people from every part of the world. I worked with black guys from Antigua for many years who were among the nicest people I've ever met. I think meeting people from other countries broadens your mind and makes you a better person so yeah I'm all for immigration if it is controlled and we aren't just letting uneducated and unskilled people in to sponge the system. There is a mosque just off the Main Street in our town and every week I see an arabic guy in his 60s who is blind being helped up the street. Now no offence to the guy personally I wish him the best but who thought it would be a good idea to let this fella in and give him residency?

Stateofyou

wildeside wrote: »

I'm not justifying closed-mindedness. I'm simply laying out the fact that some people are more "conservative" as opposed to "open" than others (I'm very much on the "open" end) and that the current rate of change might not be optimal for a successful outcome (just look at what is happening in Europe with the rise of the far-right, we should look at this phenomena seriously). The demographic changes we are seeing are unprecedented in modern memory, the effects of which are complex.



I've been incredibly lucky to have travelled the world from the west coast of America to as far as the Far East and many, many places in-between. I've lived in several big international cities all of my adult life, I don't come from a rural background.


I really do know that people are just people at the end of the day. But I also know that's an over-simplification. Humans are tribal and in order to form a cohesive functioning unit, that does not tear itself apart, needs a certain amount of shared identity & culture (e.g. language, values, history[?] etc).


The shared identity that was once taken as a given is now being challenged and questioned through the forces of globalisation.


That will prompt people to question things they might never have had to think much (or as much) about before. And it's fair enough to ask those questions.

It sounds like you've had some amazing experiences alright.

What does "conservative" mean, in your context?

Do you think it's possible that people, wherever they're from, can share (and/or appreciate) a language, values and history even if that's not where they're from originally? If I were to answer that and as someone who has spent many years abroad, I would say yes.

Stateofyou

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

It's just called honesty, we are all entitled to our opinion.
I won't however, try and force my opinion on you.

Okay. Could you just answer whether or not you are in a position to hire people?

Tony EH

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Free movement of labour is a great thing for any economy.

A country is not just an economy.

Sean.3516 wrote: »

If there are job vacancies that Irish people are either unwilling or unqualified to fill then it's only good sense that people from other countries should be able to come in and fill those jobs.

Always find it amazing how this has become the go-to for a lot of people.

Who do you think did all these jobs that the Irish were so "unwilling" to do before they became staffed by cheap foreign labour? It's not like our pizza joints were devoid of staff. The local Spar wasn't completely empty of Paddy and Mary's behind the till. Petrol stations weren't closing down because the owners couldn't get someone with an Irish accent to work there. The building trade never had a dearth of youngfellas willing to do work on them as well.

Always funny when I hear of indigenous populations are "unwilling" to do certain jobs, when those jobs were always done by the same indigenous populations in the first place.

Stateofyou

Hamachi wrote: »

My post was intentionally written that way to highlight this theme. My point is that very many people simply are not interested in bridging the cultural divide or forging lovely friendships with international colleagues or acquaintances. The willingness isn’t there.

As another poster pointed out, there’s a continuum here. You clearly fall on one extreme of the spectrum. However, a large % of people hold a diametrically opposite world view to you. They revel in the familiar and naturally gravitate to what’s known and comfortable.

Neither perspective is right nor wrong. It just is. People have different priorities and world views; any attempt to re-educate or moralize will just cause them to become more entrenched. Whilst shared experiences and lovely friendships are aspirational, I’m afraid a large cohort of people simply aren’t interested and will always default to the familiar.

And don't we know it. It's not extreme. Not from where I sit. In my family alone which is fairly large including extended there are no less than 3 marriages to foreigners and many of our work lives and therefore social lives are fairly diverse. Many of my close friends and family are or have lived abroad or traveled extensively. We Irish love to take the p!ss out of Americans for (and perhaps not fair) stereotype of never traveling and remaining close-minded but I think that view is more than alive right here. If people want to become more entrenched in their own bias despite the opportunities of experience or education then that's their failing.

Hamachi

Stateofyou wrote: »

And don't we know it. It's not extreme. Not from where I sit. In my family alone which is fairly large including extended there are no less than 3 marriages to foreigners and many of our work lives and therefore social lives are fairly diverse. Many of my close friends and family are or have lived abroad or traveled extensively. We Irish love to take the p!ss out of Americans for (and perhaps not fair) stereotype of never traveling and remaining close-minded but I think that view is more than alive right here. If people want to become more entrenched in their own bias despite the opportunities of experience or education then that's their failing.

I’m sorry, but you are simply refusing to listen. The tiny sample size of you and your family isn’t representative. Whilst it’s great that you have embraced diversity, married internationally etc.. that’s you executing upon your specific set of values. Like I said, your family aligns to one end of the spectrum, the omega so to speak.

However, there’s an alpha, the other end of the spectrum, on which many people fall. I’ve explained to you the social dynamics in my place of employment. Whilst I accept that this is also anecdotal, I believe a workplace of > 700 employees is more representative of the reality than your family.

Many people choose to live differently to you, hold different values to you. I don’t think it’s fair to castigate them for their ‘failing’. People think and live differently to you. Surely that’s a manifestation of true, organic diversity?

Arthur Daley

olestoepoke wrote: »

I lived in NY city for many years which is regarded as a cultural melting pot. I enjoyed meeting people from every part of the world.

New York city is amazing, and an enjoyable place to be, for the most part.

A lot of people seem to have formed the view that we can replicate New York city, or Manhattan specifically everywhere, brotherhood of man and all that.

You might say they are dreamers.

But another group of people are sceptical that this melting pot can be rolled out worldwide, especially as we have seen limited evidence of real world application of this philosophy throughout history. The same system that champions a Soho, Greenwich village or a Notting Hill depends on the Harlems and Tower Hamlets to keep the whole machine ticking over.

A globalist utopia might be aspirational in a John Lennon song, but the system will always need the ghettos, the enclaves and the slums if they were truly being honest about it.

wildeside

Stateofyou wrote: »

It sounds like you've had some amazing experiences alright.

What does "conservative" mean, in your context?

Do you think it's possible that people, wherever they're from, can share (and/or appreciate) a language, values and history even if that's not where they're from originally? If I were to answer that and as someone who has spent many years abroad, I would say yes.

Sorry, I should have been more specific, by "conservative" I mean the opposite to "open" psychologically speaking. Such people are a reality and part of the overall human experience. I don't know how such people can be successfully catered for in an increasingly globalised multi-cultural world. The current strategy seems to be to tell them they're all bigots and to shut up and move on, as far as I can tell. Then when those same people get a chance to actually speak (Brexit, German AFD) people wonder "well how in the world did that happen?"


And in answer to your question I would give a resounding "yes".

Odhinn

Arthur Daley wrote: »

New York city is amazing, and an enjoyable place to be, for the most part.

A lot of people seem to have formed the view that we can replicate New York city, or Manhattan specifically everywhere, brotherhood of man and all that.

.......................t.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIlJ8ZCs4jY