What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Sand

Bobtheman wrote: »

Any evidence?

If you were open to evidence and had an interest in the topic, you'd have already done some digging yourself into over-representation of non-EU migrant groups in social welfare and unemployment costs and realized what that means. But if you were following the evidence then you couldn't hold the views you do. So don't pretend your looking for evidence.

Especially when you make unfounded assertions like "We need migrants" with no evidence whatsoever offered. Back up your own wild claims.

Sand

Bobtheman wrote: »

I will repeat that all the muslim students I teach in a relatively poor area are way harder working than some of the working class passing time kids I have taught . That's my experience but obviously it's not a basis for an immigration policy.

So what? Ireland is not a corporation or a work site. It is a country.

Bobtheman

Bobtheman wrote: »

I will repeat that all the muslim students I teach in a relatively poor area are way harder working than some of the working class passing time kids I have taught . That's my experience but obviously it's not a basis for an immigration policy.

I love the angle. All Muslims <or insert minority group> are hardworking, but the native working class are a mixed bunch. Not that 'some' migrants are hardworking... funny.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I love the angle. All Muslims <or insert minority group> are hardworking, but the native working class are a mixed bunch. Not that 'some' migrants are hardworking... funny.

Fits the narrative being pushed

All minority group/migrants are <insert positive attribute>
But not all minority group/migrants are <insert negative attribute>

Cobblers.

TomTomTim

Deleted User wrote: »

I love the angle. All Muslims <or insert minority group> are hardworking, but the native working class are a mixed bunch. Not that 'some' migrants are hardworking... funny.

This has always been a point of annoyance for me. Us "extremists" actually have a far more balanced view, we know that there's some good and some bad in most groups. Progressives on the other hand love to paint all immigrant groups as angels, a position of delusion, but completely inline with their black and white thinking about almost everything.

Strumms

Eric Cartman wrote: »

And thats exactly what is happening now

It’s starting to seem this way...

When people hit 65 now, how many us will be in perfect health ?

How many of us will be in perfect shape, to walk away from the work environment, not worry about health, hospital visits, medical costs, keeping, getting or loosing a medical card....

How many of us will be able to have our dreams, that we are getting older sure, but are well, healthy, happy.....and ready to attack our retirement and the enjoyment thereof with gusto, vigor, happiness and health..

What we do know for a fact is... with retirement at 67, less of us will be in that position because the toll at that age, to keep going will impact the wellness and wellbeing of people.

The average life expectancy here is give or take around the 75 mark...

So you should now expect to enjoy on average 8 more years possibly as opposed to 10, with family and friends...

In the main because... we have an open door policy to accepting in , financially supporting and socially and medically enabling the safety and security of others from less safe and economically stable places as ourselves...

We are going to have to work years longer and harder to continue supporting and enabling this.

Wibbs

TomTomTim wrote: »

Progressives on the other hand love to paint all immigrant groups as angels,

Again it tends to be only certain groups painted this way. The more different and exotic the better. Not East Asians so much though, as they tend to be well, successful and not in need of help.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Again it tends to be only certain groups painted this way. The more different and exotic the better. Not East Asians so much though, as they tend to be well, successful and not in need of help.

Indians as well soon.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Indians as well soon.

Could happen alright. Successful demographics are largely ignored and in one way that's understandable, but rather than bleat about how one group are oppressed or whatever, surely it makes more sense to ask why some groups do better? Take your example of Indians. They tend to do better are more educated and earn more on average than background populations and certainly better than Pakistanis on average, who are the same "race", so calling racism at every turn is most certainly not the the only problem. A racist skinhead would see them all as "Pakis". African folks who legally migrate do far better than those who just show up. Same "race". Jews have been shat upon for centuries to a scary degree and are they more or less successful than background? Racism is a problem and a largely intractable one and another reason multiculturalism has negatives, but shouting RACISM! as the answer to all questions gets us nowhere and never has. It's simplistic and easy mind you and people love simple answers, egged on by vested interests pimping that simple answer.

Bobtheman

I am still waiting for evidence that migrant groups are over represented in welfare claims. I am genuinely curious..I didn't make the claim. So I should not have to substantiate it.
We all know that lots of migration is because you can't get people to do certain jobs ie meat factories because the conditions are ****.
There is no easy way to get long term welfare people into work that's being taken by foreigners. This is an EU wide issue. You can spout pub nonsense all you like but no concrete solutions have I heard here
The work visa has been reformed in Ireland but there is no system in Ireland to track down those who over stay.
We are in the EU - unless we leave eastern Europeans will always be with us.
The refugees system is in need of massive reform world wide.
The muslim religion needs reform and I'd be cautious of taking in large numbers. We are presently at 60k not a huge amount.
The state is well aware that people don't want huge number of immigrant's and whatever they say publicly the private views are different.
I stand by my claim that your typical teenage muslim student is a way better contributor to Ireland than his usual working class Irish friend and that's based on 20 years experience. But only a personal view.

Sand

Bobtheman wrote: »

I am still waiting for evidence that migrant groups are over represented in welfare claims. I am genuinely curious..I didn't make the claim. So I should not have to substantiate it.

What you're doing is described as sealioning.

The realities about the costs of mass migration have already been well established. It's not controversial or even seriously disputed. Posters like yourself pop up every few weeks and try to drag the discussion back to the beginning as a distraction. If you're genuinely interested - which I doubt - catch up with the discussion by researching the publicly available information.

We all know that lots of migration is because you can't get people to do certain jobs ie meat factories because the conditions are ****.

No, we don't know that. You don't prove an assertion simply by making another assertion.

Bobtheman

Bobtheman wrote: »

We all know that lots of migration is because you can't get people to do certain jobs ie meat factories because the conditions are ****.

There is little effort made to bring in European workers to fill such positions, when there are various countries across Europe (Spain, Italy, etc) with high unemployment. The problem being the focus on welfare to provide people with a standard of living as opposed to focusing on the genuine benefits of the EU. In any case, the overall cost of bringing in workers from 3rd world nations far outweighs any case to fill such jobs. Any economy and business works under supply and demand. If those businesses want workers, they can make the work more attractive. Simple logic.

I have yet to see you make a case to support the idea of bringing in migrants from outside of Europe. You've made various vague statements merging migrant groups under the umbrella term of immigration, but you haven't dealt with any specifics.

There is no easy way to get long term welfare people into work that's being taken by foreigners. This is an EU wide issue. You can spout pub nonsense all you like but no concrete solutions have I heard here

What nonsense? Your claims come out of nowhere with no reference made as to what they're being addressed to.

Re-educate people with the skills in demand, establish small/medium sized businesses under State grants to fill a demand in the marketplace, and you reduce the welfare supports, thereby pushing people back into the workplace.

It's not nice... but it would work.

We are in the EU - unless we leave eastern Europeans will always be with us.

There aren't many problems with Eastern Europeans.. except for those in the Balkan regions. In any case, the numbers concerned are tiny compared to the whole group. Eastern Europe is not an issue. Most of them work very hard, and integrate well into Western society.

The muslim religion needs reform and I'd be cautious of taking in large numbers. We are presently at 60k not a huge amount.

Where are you getting this 60k number from? In any case, people don't need to declare/prove their religion, so the actual number could be anything. It doesn't matter though. Islam is simply an expression about the difficulty in integrating groups which are significantly culturally different than us, and the range of problems that arise within decades of their settlement. This is the case with modern immigration from Islamic countries, and from African countries. It's not solely about Islam. Many Muslims can integrate well, but the question is more about the culture behind the religion that may affect their long term beliefs, and goals while in Europe.

The state is well aware that people don't want huge number of immigrant's and whatever they say publicly the private views are different.

Isn't that a contradiction?

I stand by my claim that your typical teenage muslim student is a way better contributor to Ireland than his usual working class Irish friend and that's based on 20 years experience. But only a personal view.

Ok. What is your experience? I've been a teacher before, and I'm now a lecturer. There is no way you could make such a appraisal based on students being Muslim, unless you're working in an institution dedicated to such a group. How do you know these students are Muslim? And considering the likely numbers of Muslims in Ireland, how are you teaching so many that you would feel comfortable making such a statement?

In addition, do the Muslims you teach come from a particular economic group (wealthy and therefore educated), or do they come from traditionally poor socio-economic groups? Are you comparing these Muslims with a comparable group with similar background, preparation, etc? I have the impression you're comparing 'privileged' Muslims with working class Irish... and even then, I'm kinda wondering what kind of place you're teaching if you have such a broad selection (with such numbers).

You keep repeating this belief but don't provide anything to justify that belief.

Bobtheman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is little effort made to bring in European workers to fill such positions, when there are various countries across Europe (Spain, Italy, etc) with high unemployment. The problem being the focus on welfare to provide people with a standard of living as opposed to focusing on the genuine benefits of the EU. In any case, the overall cost of bringing in workers from 3rd world nations far outweighs any case to fill such jobs. Any economy and business works under supply and demand. If those businesses want workers, they can make the work more attractive. Simple logic.

I have yet to see you make a case to support the idea of bringing in migrants from outside of Europe. You've made various vague statements merging migrant groups under the umbrella term of immigration, but you haven't dealt with any specifics.



What nonsense? Your claims come out of nowhere with no reference made as to what they're being addressed to.

Re-educate people with the skills in demand, establish small/medium sized businesses under State grants to fill a demand in the marketplace, and you reduce the welfare supports, thereby pushing people back into the workplace.

It's not nice... but it would work.



There aren't many problems with Eastern Europeans.. except for those in the Balkan regions. In any case, the numbers concerned are tiny compared to the whole group. Eastern Europe is not an issue. Most of them work very hard, and integrate well into Western society.



Where are you getting this 60k number from? In any case, people don't need to declare/prove their religion, so the actual number could be anything. It doesn't matter though. Islam is simply an expression about the difficulty in integrating groups which are significantly culturally different than us, and the range of problems that arise within decades of their settlement. This is the case with modern immigration from Islamic countries, and from African countries. It's not solely about Islam. Many Muslims can integrate well, but the question is more about the culture behind the religion that may affect their long term beliefs, and goals while in Europe.



Isn't that a contradiction?



Ok. What is your experience? I've been a teacher before, and I'm now a lecturer. There is no way you could make such a appraisal based on students being Muslim, unless you're working in an institution dedicated to such a group. How do you know these students are Muslim? And considering the likely numbers of Muslims in Ireland, how are you teaching so many that you would feel comfortable making such a statement?

In addition, do the Muslims you teach come from a particular economic group (wealthy and therefore educated), or do they come from traditionally poor socio-economic groups? Are you comparing these Muslims with a comparable group with similar background, preparation, etc? I have the impression you're comparing 'privileged' Muslims with working class Irish... and even then, I'm kinda wondering what kind of place you're teaching if you have such a broad selection (with such numbers).

You keep repeating this belief but don't provide anything to justify that belief.

There is no real argument for bringing in any workers from outside the EU if you can get Irish or european workers. Often they can't or it's too difficult to retrain Irish people. Or you could believe as you seem to imply there is simply a large scale plan to make us the united colours of benetton . Sure the state should decide on an EU worker policy only but I just don't see that happening
As to doubts about muslims integrating. There is no problem here and I don't see it happening here . Lots of states where they cause no more trouble than any other group or less than that of the natives.
Anyway this could go on and on. We can't fix housing or health. I don't think we will end up with a sensible immigration policy yet but I see no evidence we have major problem here. We do need to avoid the problems of others by pacing the amount and working on integration.
But you can't predict the future.

Bobtheman

The figures for muslins are from the census

Bobtheman

Bobtheman wrote: »

Anyway this could go on and on.

Actually, for my own part, it won't... because you don't actually respond to points made to you, even when laid out with direct quotes as reference. There's a constant shifting of goalposts with your responses... never sticking to a point, and introducing ideas that nobody has referred to, but you seem to think they have.

So.. nope. I don't see much point engaging in discussion with you. Perhaps when you're ready to argue the points you make, but I doubt you will.

Bobtheman

I don't have the skills to cut and paste your quotes.
Give me one point now and I will deal with it as best I can.
I'm not on trial I can introduce new information if I want to !!ðŸ˜႒
I already agreed there is no real argument for bringing in non Europeans. It's just laziness.
I agree totally with retraining etc but having taught some of the welfare class - good luck in making it work in many cases.
I'm not going to go into details of my job because that would breach privacy. However id ecourage you to actually talk to muslims rather than read a few books and then post .
The figures for the muslim population are from the census .
Anyway I'm not on trial . I can introduce what I like and you don't have to reply !

Deshawn

2 friends of mine had to fight tooth and nail to prove why they should be permitted to enter the Us and work for multinational finance companies in place of the company hiring Americans for the to roles

(Trumps new rules)

When I got sponsored on Australia many moons ago the company had to provide a large amount of information as to why I should be getting the job instead of an Aussie

(Australian immigration law)


How does it work in Europe or more specifically Ireland? Does anyone know?

Gervais08

Deshawn wrote: »

2 friends of mine had to fight tooth and nail to prove why they should be permitted to enter the Us and work for multinational finance companies in place of the company hiring Americans for the to roles

(Trumps new rules)

When I got sponsored on Australia many moons ago the company had to provide a large amount of information as to why I should be getting the job instead of an Aussie

(Australian immigration law)


How does it work in Europe or more specifically Ireland? Does anyone know?

If coming in legally yeah it’s pretty tough.

If arriving secretly in a van at Rosslare or sneaking in on a holiday or student visa and lying to claim asylum - no.

Deshawn

Gervais08 wrote: »

If coming in legally yeah it’s pretty tough.

If arriving secretly in a van at Rosslare or sneaking in on a holiday or student visa and lying to claim asylum - no.

A Google search of the countries with toughest immigration law puts Nigeria at no 9

"Nigeria

Long-term expats are required to apply for a Combined Expatriate Residence Permit and Aliens Card (CERPAC), which acts as both a work permit and a residence permit. Holding an employment offer or contract is necessary, and a CERPAC is always tied to a specific job. If you leave Nigeria, you must apply for a re-entry visa. Nigeria like most African countries has strong cultural priorities and does not promote immigration"

Read it and weep

Gervais08

Deshawn wrote: »

A Google search of the countries with toughest immigration law puts Nigeria at no 9

"Nigeria

Long-term expats are required to apply for a Combined Expatriate Residence Permit and Aliens Card (CERPAC), which acts as both a work permit and a residence permit. Holding an employment offer or contract is necessary, and a CERPAC is always tied to a specific job. If you leave Nigeria, you must apply for a re-entry visa. Nigeria like most African countries has strong cultural priorities and does not promote immigration"

Read it and weep

Clearly the Nigerians are no fans of irony!

Wibbs

Bobtheman wrote: »

We do need to avoid the problems of others by pacing the amount and working on integration.

Which sounds great B, but how? We can't legislate for human nature. EG areas becoming more one demographic than "local". In every single multicultural nation on the planet you will find the equivalents of a Chinatown, little Italy, the Irish quarter, the Jewish, the African and so forth. Human nature. Quite understandable too. And depending on the demographic this can run along socioeconomic lines too. It's already started in urban Ireland less than twenty years into this social experiment.

But you can't predict the future.

Actually you can. As one example again please point to any multicultural nation in the West where those of African background are at the same socioeconomic, educational and employment level as those of East Asian backgrounds or European backgrounds. And a buzzword like "integration" doesn't seem to have much to do with it as East Asian folks tend to keep to themselves and retain their background culture as much as any group. Racism? Certainly plays a part, but doesn't explain how East Asians do so well and they're hardly immune to racism, or how Indians do better than Pakistanis on average and they're the same "race". Or how Georgians don't do as well as Germans and they're both White. Or religion for that matter. Malay and Jordanian Muslims do better than Pakistani Muslims.

As for Muslims and Islam in general, I would broadly agree with you, if one is comparing like with like. Comparing middle class say Bahraini Muslims with welfare class Irish is not doing so. You could swap out any middle class more educated group and you'd get the same result. Plus I never understand why the "we have our own unemployable bunch, so therefore diversity is better". Never mind the antagonism towards our own involved in that. Never mind wanting to risk importing another group of welfare class with a race/ethnicity factor on top.

As for:

I am still waiting for evidence that migrant groups are over represented in welfare claims. I am genuinely curious..I didn't make the claim. So I should not have to substantiate it.

Here's a link to a paper on the matter. Here's the paper itself in PDF format. The abstract opens with: This paper explores why African immigrants have poor labour market outcomes in Ireland, with very low employment and exceptionally high unemployment rates. There you go. In the author's words. Substantiated.

You also said:

I stand by my claim that your typical teenage muslim student is a way better contributor to Ireland than his usual working class Irish friend

The African stats show that they do even worse than our "usual working class Irish friends". And again comparing a typical teenage student of any kind to a working class non student of any kind is not even close to a good comparison, other than to demonstrate the startlingly obvious that students wanting to learn do better than non students who don't. Never mind they're almost certainly here legally, when students at least.

Deshawn

Gervais08 wrote: »

Clearly the Nigerians are no fans of irony!

Or foreigners!

Bobtheman

Wibbs wrote: »

Which sounds great B, but how? We can't legislate for human nature. EG areas becoming more one demographic than "local". In every single multicultural nation on the planet you will find the equivalents of a Chinatown, little Italy, the Irish quarter, the Jewish, the African and so forth. Human nature. Quite understandable too. And depending on the demographic this can run along socioeconomic lines too. It's already started in urban Ireland less than twenty years into this social experiment.

Actually you can. As one example again please point to any multicultural nation in the West where those of African background are at the same socioeconomic, educational and employment level as those of East Asian backgrounds or European backgrounds. And a buzzword like "integration" doesn't seem to have much to do with it as East Asian folks tend to keep to themselves and retain their background culture as much as any group. Racism? Certainly plays a part, but doesn't explain how East Asians do so well and they're hardly immune to racism, or how Indians do better than Pakistanis on average and they're the same "race". Or how Georgians don't do as well as Germans and they're both White. Or religion for that matter. Malay and Jordanian Muslims do better than Pakistani Muslims.

As for Muslims and Islam in general, I would broadly agree with you, if one is comparing like with like. Comparing middle class say Bahraini Muslims with welfare class Irish is not doing so. You could swap out any middle class more educated group and you'd get the same result. Plus I never understand why the "we have our own unemployable bunch, so therefore diversity is better". Never mind the antagonism towards our own involved in that. Never mind wanting to risk importing another group of welfare class with a race/ethnicity factor on top.

As for:

Here's a link to a paper on the matter. Here's the paper itself in PDF format. The abstract opens with: This paper explores why African immigrants have poor labour market outcomes in Ireland, with very low employment and exceptionally high unemployment rates. There you go. In the author's words. Substantiated.

You also said:



The African stats show that they do even worse than our "usual working class Irish friends". And again comparing a typical teenage student of any kind to a working class non student of any kind is not even close to a good comparison, other than to demonstrate the startlingly obvious that students wanting to learn do better than non students who don't. Never mind they're almost certainly here legally, when students at least.

You seem to be talking about Africans mainly. The muslims I know are not largely from Africa.
I'd will try to read the paper. When I get time.
I have stated clearly the refugee policy is bollix. A guy skips ten nation's and washes up in Ireland? I think direct provision was an attempt to make it less attractive to come here. I don't know enough about the refugees process here to say how easy or difficult it is.
I have come across illegals who came here on holiday visa and are still here almost a decade later despite being relatively easy to locate.
I will read that document when I get time.
I'm not trying to say my interactions with say a hundred muslim teenagers over a decade is the basis of a national policy - not at all just my experience has been largely positive.
Anyway adieu

Sand

Bobtheman wrote: »

I am still waiting for evidence that migrant groups are over represented in welfare claims. I am genuinely curious

Evidence provided->

Bobtheman wrote: »

I will read that document when I get time.

So not that curious after all.

Eric Cartman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I love the angle. All Muslims <or insert minority group> are hardworking, but the native working class are a mixed bunch. Not that 'some' migrants are hardworking... funny.

Its always the classic, the side that usually defends the working and welfare classes to the hilt, but the first given opportunity and they throw them under the bus as lazy/workshy/violent etc... when theres a migrant to be made look better

“Id rather live next to a muslim family than some of our own council tenants” etc...

Wibbs

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Its always the classic, the side that usually defends the working and welfare classes to the hilt, but the first given opportunity and they throw them under the bus as lazy/workshy/violent etc... when theres a migrant to be made look better

“Id rather live next to a muslim family than some of our own council tenants” etc...

Because those on that "side" are almost exclusively middle class themselves(or those trying to milk them) and the middle classes tend to love looking down sniffily upon their "lessers", but love the novelty hit of the exotic, so long as it comes prepackaged, sterile and at a remove from their leafy environs. Preferably confined to a table menu, or a safe quarter they visit from time to time as fodder for polite if vacuous conversation. Telegraphing a charitable bent a bonus.

In Ireland this goes triple as the vast majority of today's middle classes are barely a generation or two removed from the lessers they denigrate today so it's a little too close for comfort, so bumping into Mrs Okonkwo is both exotic and less discomforting.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Because those on that "side" are almost exclusively middle class themselves(or those trying to milk them) and the middle classes tend to love looking down sniffily upon their "lessers", but love the novelty hit of the exotic, so long as it comes prepackaged, sterile and at a remove from their leafy environs. Preferably confined to a table menu, or a safe quarter they visit from time to time as fodder for polite if vacuous conversation. Telegraphing a charitable bent a bonus.

In Ireland this goes triple as the vast majority of today's middle classes are barely a generation or two removed from the lessers they denigrate today so it's a little too close for comfort, so bumping into Mrs Okonkwo is both exotic and less discomforting.

I'm middle class. Would you also be middle class? Most of my friends would be middle class, and none of them are pro-immigration or crazy about embracing multiculturalism. They're all educated to the extent that they see the downsides of such movements, while also considering the financial/economic aspects, because being middle class doesn't have much of a safety net anymore (since they're the goto answer for revenue)

I dunno. The middle class has grown so much over the last few decades, so I "tense up" when I hear this kind of opinion about how the middle class supposedly behaves/believes. Generally speaking, the only "lessers" I hear about are the Travellers, not the working class... or even those on welfare. (although those on welfare sometimes get hit for various reasons).

Nah. I think it's more the case of the "upper" middle class, or those borderline with being wealthy who are likely to believe/behave the way you describe... Most general middle class are living in areas similar to that of working class people... except for those working class who have allowed their areas to turn into warzones/ghettos, but they're hardly representative of the overall group. In my hometown, my parents home would be considered a very good estate, and next door, there's another estate where many 'traditionally' working class live. There's little separation between us.. not anymore anyway.

Zookey123

Wibbs wrote: »

Because those on that "side" are almost exclusively middle class themselves(or those trying to milk them) and the middle classes tend to love looking down sniffily upon their "lessers", but love the novelty hit of the exotic, so long as it comes prepackaged, sterile and at a remove from their leafy environs. Preferably confined to a table menu, or a safe quarter they visit from time to time as fodder for polite if vacuous conversation. Telegraphing a charitable bent a bonus

Jaysus talk about generalising! Where are you getting this information from? Can you actually tell what a large group of people is thinking? Stick to actual facts and don't put words (or in this case a whole thought process) into the mouths of a large group of people, something I'm sure you would not appreciate if done to you right?

TomTomTim

Zookey123 wrote: »

Jaysus talk about generalising! Where are you getting this information from? Can you actually tell what a large group of people is thinking? Stick to actual facts and don't put words (or in this case a whole thought process) into the mouths of a large group of people, something I'm sure you would not appreciate if done to you right?

If I go and look at all the people who work at NGOs, I'll likely find many middle class people. If I could somehow find out the status of the many progressive users on this site, they'll likely be middle class. It's simply a middle class ideology, which means that many of the adherents are middle class. If there's working class people on your side, they are a small minority. It's not really a generalization when it's true, is it?

Zookey123

TomTomTim wrote: »

If I go and look at all the people who work at NGOs, I'll likely find many middle class people. If I could somehow find out the status of the many progressive users on this site, they'll likely be middle class. It's simply a middle class ideology, which means that many of the adherents are middle class. If there's working class people on your side, they are a small minority. It's not really a generalization when it's true, is it?

So that's your rationale? You think certain subset of the population follows an incredibly unflattering thought process because most left leaning users on this site are likely to be middle class? I can't make sense of this so can you please rephrase it in your own words (because I don't want to be accused of putting words in your mouth). And yes that would be generalising (Forming a view on a large group based on limited data/assumptions).