What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

TomTomTim

TomTomTim wrote: »

If I go and look at all the people who work at NGOs, I'll likely find many middle class people. If I could somehow find out the status of the many progressive users on this site, they'll likely be middle class. It's simply a middle class ideology, which means that many of the adherents are middle class. If there's working class people on your side, they are a small minority. It's not really a generalization when it's true, is it?

The majority portion of the Irish population are likely to be middle class. It's not like we're a farming economy anymore... While many people might call themselves working class, in terms of education and income potential, they're far closer to being middle class than the traditional working class. Hell, three of the construction workers on my sisters house, had multiple degrees, and lived in decent houses themselves (and earn more than my sister, or me).

rgossip30

Bobtheman wrote: »

I am still waiting for evidence that migrant groups are over represented in welfare claims. I am genuinely curious..I didn't make the claim. So I should not have to substantiate it.
We all know that lots of migration is because you can't get people to do certain jobs ie meat factories because the conditions are ****.
There is no easy way to get long term welfare people into work that's being taken by foreigners. This is an EU wide issue. You can spout pub nonsense all you like but no concrete solutions have I heard here
The work visa has been reformed in Ireland but there is no system in Ireland to track down those who over stay.
We are in the EU - unless we leave eastern Europeans will always be with us.
The refugees system is in need of massive reform world wide.
The muslim religion needs reform and I'd be cautious of taking in large numbers. We are presently at 60k not a huge amount.
The state is well aware that people don't want huge number of immigrant's and whatever they say publicly the private views are different.
I stand by my claim that your typical teenage muslim student is a way better contributor to Ireland than his usual working class Irish friend and that's based on 20 years experience. But only a personal view.

You are in effect saying a Muslim student is more valuable to the country than an Irish working person who is paying taxes towards their education . The student would only become valuable if he/she starts work . Female Muslims do not traditionally work its against the religion if they have children and marry .

Bobtheman

rgossip30 wrote: »

You are in effect saying a Muslim student is more valuable to the country than an Irish working person who is paying taxes towards their education .

No never said that just the children of immigrants I have met want to get on in the education system. Not every Muslim is a non-paying (Tax) refugee

Bobtheman

Its true that you tend to see Immigrants settling-due to Rent and housing issues. in poorer parts of Dublin than quintessentially middle-class areas. But this social mix probably occurs among the Irish themselves for various reasons.
Anyway adieu again

rgossip30

Bobtheman wrote: »

No never said that just the children of immigrants I have met want to get on in the education system. Not every Muslim is a non-paying (Tax) refugee

I never said every Muslim !!

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Nah. I think it's more the case of the "upper" middle class, or those borderline with being wealthy who are likely to believe/behave the way you describe...

Actually yes K, that's a much better narrowing down alright. The class structure in Ireland as you note has changed and quite unlike the one in the UK and Ireland would be mostly a "middle class" nation, essentially the class who pay the most taxes.

Zookey123 wrote: »

Jaysus talk about generalising! Where are you getting this information from? Can you actually tell what a large group of people is thinking? Stick to actual facts and don't put words (or in this case a whole thought process) into the mouths of a large group of people, something I'm sure you would not appreciate if done to you right?

Meh, I'd not particularly care tbh. I'm only likely to be wound up by a generalisation concerning me if I got the scent of recognition. And it's not just a thumbnail generalisation. Look at referenda and you'll find the most progressive majorities in places like South Dublin. Where's a Green party TD going to get more support? Leafy Dublin suburbia or Donegal?

As for some discomfort around the "working class", Ireland had one of the highest numbers of elocution teachers in the world at one time. Even the nuns and brothers were at it. Get rid of your regional/working class tones to move up in the world. It gave rise to the Dort accent, with it's mangled British overtones and now it's the mid atlantic going with Moooom to the Stoooore more popular today. The Irish have long held a self consciousness about their personal, local and "class" origins(even their Irishness itself at times*) and the mass movements from rural to urban in the 50's and 60's solidified that.



*Look at any After Hours thread about Ireland and you're guaranteed to have a few posters on the "sure look at the state of us", references to how bad the church was(which was us) and if accents come up the "skanger" Dublin accent gets the most vitriol. Look at this very thread and you'll find examples of same and quite the number of posters with a bee in their bonnet about "working class Irish" and how immigrants, apparently all of them are better. Hell, it's in the last few pages.

doublejobbing 2

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Its always the classic, the side that usually defends the working and welfare classes to the hilt, but the first given opportunity and they throw them under the bus as lazy/workshy/violent etc... when theres a migrant to be made look better

“Id rather live next to a muslim family than some of our own council tenants” etc...

I've seen signs at protests along the lines of "Swap refugees for racists".

This bizarre notion that all these refugees have more enlightened societal views than Jim the taxi driver is staggering.

doublejobbing 2

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

I've seen signs at protests along the lines of "Swap refugees for racists".

This bizarre notion that all these refugees have more enlightened societal views than Jim the taxi driver is staggering.

Well.. that's the thing. They can't really comprehend what it's like and assume that everyone is the same as them. Oh sure, they can see on TV what a poverty stricken place is like, but they'll forget it two seconds later, and never consider what else is affected by growing up in such places.

I think many people have forgotten just how poor and backward Ireland used to be like, instead, treating it with some fond kind of nostalgia.. just as they view these M.Eastern or African countries with the same kind of distance.. they don't consider the traditional mindsets, the stereotyping, the hostility towards those outside of the local community, etc.

Fact is, in all my travels, Ireland is probably the least racist place. There's plenty of ignorance, but little actual racial hostility.. whereas in other countries they have historical "reasons" for having those views... And while China is pretty damn racist, as is Japan, I actually found the US and UK to be far worse in many ways. The enlightened hold tight to double standards, and justifiable reverse racism... at least in other countries, their racism is more honest and pragmatic.

creeper1

About 70 odd people died trying to get to the Canary Islands a day or so ago. I watched the report and Ghana has a population of over 30 million and get this 57 percent of them are under 25!

https://youtu.be/UHJXRFUukPc

Europe, and by extension Ireland, is going to face a hard choice unless the governments of migrant sending countries are able to offer their young people something.

We are either going to have to watch people die in the sea or allow our continent to become African.

In the long term is there any other choice?

ILoveYourVibes

Originally Posted by TomTomTim View Post
If I go and look at all the people who work at NGOs, I'll likely find many middle class people. If I could somehow find out the status of the many progressive users on this site, they'll likely be middle class. It's simply a middle class ideology, which means that many of the adherents are middle class. If there's working class people on your side, they are a small minority. It's not really a generalization when it's true, is it?

There is no working class really in ireland ...there is poor, rich and middle class.
The working class became the middle class.

That is why peter casey didn't get anywhere here. ....not enough working class to vote for him

Gervais08

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

There is no working class really in ireland ...there is poor, rich and middle class.
The working class became the middle class.

That is why peter casey didn't get anywhere here. ....not enough working class to vote for him

The bar is not set particularly high but that is the most insane post I’ve seen from you.

beggars_bush

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

There is no working class really in ireland ...there is poor, rich and middle class.
The working class became the middle class.

That is why peter casey didn't get anywhere here. ....not enough working class to vote for him

Or most people saw he was/is an idiot

Wibbs

Never mind Casey went from nowhere in the presidential election to second place with nearly a quarter of the votes on the back of a statement about Travellers and mutterings about the welfare class.

Bobtheman

I think there is a working class in Ireland. But it has to do with a mindset vs materialism.
The working class tend to value education less. Traditionally they'd head off to a trade etc. Their parents just don't value it as much.
There is nothing wrong with a trade it's just the authorities won't let a kid leave at 16 instead there is a lot of babysitting the kids until 18 going on.
There is also a tendency to have kids earlier and then look for social housing. The middle class mind set normally does it in reverse.
There has generally been a push towards the bottom. Lower salaries. Higher rents. Highest mortgages in Europe etc means the spectre of poverty is everywhere today .
These are just generalisations. Not concrete opinion.

doublejobbing 2

Bobtheman wrote: »

I think there is a working class in Ireland. But it has to do with a mindset vs materialism.
The working class tend to value education less. Traditionally they'd head off to a trade etc. Their parents just don't value it as much.
There is nothing wrong with a trade .

A third year plumbing apprentice of 20 is on more money than many, probably most, graduates pushing 30. They are also on SEO rates- they know the other lads on the job are on at least X an hour. While John in AIB might be on 24k and the lad who started 3 months after him is on 26k, or 23k, depending on the budget for the particular quarter he started.

Imagine a world where plumbers studied for four years and then either started on 22k or were required to do unpaid internships to get their foot in the door :pac:

Yeah. Eejits the lot of them.

jmreire

Wibbs wrote: »

Never mind Casey went from nowhere in the presidential election to second place with nearly a quarter of the votes on the back of a statement about Travellers and mutterings about the welfare class.

330'000 people voted for Casey, and had the electioneering gone on for longer, would possibly have gotten a lot more. The voters were a cross section of society, but all had one thing in common, bad experiences with travellers. Casey only articulated what they were feeling. Something no one else was doing. And it was nothing to do with working class either.

Bobtheman

Wibbs wrote: »

Never mind Casey went from nowhere in the presidential election to second place with nearly a quarter of the votes on the back of a statement about Travellers and mutterings about the welfare class.

Travellers are an easy target. Mainstream politicians love these attacks as it takes away from their failures in housing . They just love to get on the moral high ground at the drop of a hat

TomTomTim

Bobtheman wrote: »

Travellers are an easy target. Mainstream politicians love these attacks as it takes away from their failures in housing . They just love to get on the moral high ground at the drop of a hat

Fantasy. The fact that Casey got so many votes was at least partly due to the fact that most politicians are too cowardly to saying anything about them.

Wibbs

Bobtheman wrote: »

Travellers are an easy target.

Why?

Mainstream politicians love these attacks as it takes away from their failures in housing .

I have no idea where housing specifically comes into it, but anyway Casey while a gobsh1te was hardly mainstream. Plus If the mainstream parties thought there were more votes in going for Travellers why don't they?

jmreire

TomTomTim wrote: »

Fantasy. The fact that Casey got so many votes was at least partly due to the fact that most politicians are too cowardly to saying anything about them.

Yes, very true, Casey ( whatever else you think about him ) called a spade a spade, and had the electioneering gone on for longer, he would have given Michael D a good run for his money. There is a good undercurrent in Irish Society who are far from happy about lots of things, but they don't have a focal point to channel their angst into... Casey provided one such lightening rod, as did the water protests. And as for the claim that Casey is stupid etc ( insert your own flavour here) 330'000 did not give a damn. Same thing happened in the last GE,,,people voted for anyone , as long as it was not FF/FG.

Bobtheman

There is certainly a large group of people upset about the way the nation is run . Housing and health care. Plus some are sick of the virtue sing-along signaling that goes on.
I don't think multi culturalism is that big a concern. We are in the EU we have to take eastern Europeans.
We are recruiting outside of Europe for other jobs and taking in dubious refugees. But I really don't get the sense that's a big issue out there.
I think the whole immigration process has been changed since the boom. It's not as easy to come from outside europe unless you go the refugee path.

Gervais08

Bobtheman wrote: »

There is certainly a large group of people upset about the way the nation is run . Housing and health care. Plus some are sick of the virtue sing-along signaling that goes on.
I don't think multi culturalism is that big a concern. We are in the EU we have to take eastern Europeans.
We are recruiting outside of Europe for other jobs and taking in dubious refugees. But I really don't get the sense that's a big issue out there.
I think the whole immigration process has been changed since the boom. It's not as easy to come from outside europe unless you go the refugee path.

So you’re discounting bogus student visas and just sneaking in ???

Cordell

Bobtheman wrote: »

We are recruiting outside of Europe for other jobs and taking in dubious refugees. But I really don't get the sense that's a big issue out there

Will you get the sense with the first beheading? Or with the first bombing?
There is some islamic terrorisms activity already happening here, financing and recruiting, and the first FGM criminal case was a few years ago, so when it's going to be a big issue? When it's too late to do anything about it?

Hamachi

Bobtheman wrote: »

I don't think multi culturalism is that big a concern. We are in the EU we have to take eastern Europeans.
We are recruiting outside of Europe for other jobs and taking in dubious refugees. But I really don't get the sense that's a big issue out there.
I think the whole immigration process has been changed since the boom. It's not as easy to come from outside europe unless you go the refugee path.

You have no idea if multiculturalism is a concern or not. That’s your personal opinion, nothing more. The problem is that we no sense of the prevailing sentiment amongst the Irish population.

There’s never been a national debate; all concerns around immigration are ruthlessly suppressed. Ireland is slavishly following the same playbook that was employed in the UK and throughout continental Europe. Immigration is ramped up to unsustainably high levels and any indigenous who have the audacity to express concern, are branded as racist and ostracized socially.

The problem with this strategy is the pot eventually boils over as we have seen with Brexit and the emergence of Marine Le Pen and the AFD. Personally, I foresee a significant right-leaning party evolving in Ireland in the 2030s if the current levels of demographic change persist.

Nobody has an issue with Eastern Europeans migrating here. The overwhelmingly majority are economically active and their children blend almost seamlessly into the background population. They aren’t bringing religious or cultural baggage that adversely impacts Ireland.

There is simply no need for substantial extra-European inward migration, apart from filling a tiny subset of highly specialized roles. It’s utterly farcical to claim that many positions cannot be filled either domestically or from the ~500 million European citizens who can freely migrate to this country.

The student visa fiasco also needs to be investigated and tightened significantly. It’s simply ridiculous that thousands of Latin Americans, primarily Brazilians and Venezuelans, are arriving here to attend dubious English-language schools and overstaying their temporary visas by multiple years. I have nothing against these folks personally. I know some Brazilians pretty well and they are very genial, kind-hearted people.

Nevertheless, the situation whereby student visas are used as a mechanism to access this country, needs to be overhauled. I would also point the finger at the Italian government, who are handing out citizenship like confetti to Latin Americans with very distant Italian ancestry. This is another loophole that’s currently being exploited to remain in Ireland.

We’re facing a decade long Covid-induced recession. The time has come to tighten migration channels to Ireland and ensure that those who come here are high caliber, economically active participants in society, who will ultimately benefit this country. If you don’t meet these criteria, there’s no place for you here.

Aleece2020

Hamachi wrote: »

Personally, I foresee a significant right-leaning party evolving in Ireland in the 2030s if the current levels of demographic change persist. here.

The main problem I have with immigration is with the negative attitudes towards women that certain groups bring with them. Instead of assimilating to European culture and treating women like equal human beings deserving of the same respect and dignity as a man, they want to change the culture so that women are regarded as property or lesser beings. There are a whole list of other problems that come into play with regards to cultural differences and issues around religious intolerance, but as a woman who was born in Ireland, I resent the idea of foreign men coming in here and forcing us to change the laws to give them authority over Irish women in our own country. I don't know when we're all going to wake up and realize that we have everything to lose from multiculturalism.

However, the problem I have with the parties that are heavily right-wing are the attitudes they have towards women. It took a long time to repeal the 8th amendment and get access to contraception here. While I agree with the platform of anti-immigration that these parties generally run on, I don't agree with their other views on banning/restricting abortions or making contraceptives harder to get. I want to see a party that is anti-immigration, but pro-choice.

ExMachina1000

Aleece2020 wrote: »

The main problem I have with immigration is with the negative attitudes towards women that certain groups bring with them. Instead of assimilating to European culture and treating women like equal human beings deserving of the same respect and dignity as a man, they want to change the culture so that women are regarded as property or lesser beings. There are a whole list of other problems that come into play with regards to cultural differences and issues around religious intolerance, but as a woman who was born in Ireland, I resent the idea of foreign men coming in here and forcing us to change the laws to give them authority over Irish women in our own country. I don't know when we're all going to wake up and realize that we have everything to lose from multiculturalism.

However, the problem I have with the parties that are heavily right-wing are the attitudes they have towards women. It took a long time to repeal the 8th amendment and get access to contraception here. While I agree with the platform of anti-immigration that these parties generally run on, I don't agree with their other views on banning/restricting abortions or making contraceptives harder to get. I want to see a party that is anti-immigration, but pro-choice.

Which party was in government for the abortion and equal marriage referendums?

Cordell

The main problem I have with immigration is with the negative attitudes towards women that certain groups bring with them

That's only the immediate short term problem. There is a long term problem, that is their refusal to appreciate and integrate in the country and culture they choose to move in. Even the genuine refugees, they run from some serious problems back home, but they don't run from their culture that created those problems in the first place - they bring that culture with them hence the problems we see now with home grown muslim radicals and terrorists.

parties that are heavily right-wing are the attitudes they have towards women

The irony is lost to them, as it is lost to the left wing defending the muslim immigrants - islam is a far right ideology.

Aleece2020

Cordell wrote: »

The irony is lost to them, as it is lost to the left wing defending the muslim immigrants - islam is a far right ideology.

Exactly. The irony is totally lost on the left-wing but at the same time it's also lost on the far-right who are screaming about how Islam is going to take away their rights while they simultaneously march to the drums of taking away women's rights to abortion, limiting contraception etc. I can't get behind them for that reason. Islam or the far-right; it's the same outcome of losing rights that took a long time to get.

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Which party was in government for the abortion and equal marriage referendums?

It certainly wasn't the National Party or any party that would call themselves far-right. I'd say FG (and FF) are largely centralist for the most part even if they lean one way or another on occasion.

These far-right parties that want to stop or limit immigration could draw in plenty of voters if they didn't run on an anti-abortion platform. They don't seem to grasp that the values of Islam that people do not want here (no access to abortion. etc.) are the same things they themselves are pushing.

MontgomeryClift

Aleece2020 wrote: »

The main problem I have with immigration is with the negative attitudes towards women that certain groups bring with them. Instead of assimilating to European culture and treating women like equal human beings deserving of the same respect and dignity as a man, they want to change the culture so that women are regarded as property or lesser beings. There are a whole list of other problems that come into play with regards to cultural differences and issues around religious intolerance, but as a woman who was born in Ireland, I resent the idea of foreign men coming in here and forcing us to change the laws to give them authority over Irish women in our own country. I don't know when we're all going to wake up and realize that we have everything to lose from multiculturalism.

However, the problem I have with the parties that are heavily right-wing are the attitudes they have towards women. It took a long time to repeal the 8th amendment and get access to contraception here. While I agree with the platform of anti-immigration that these parties generally run on, I don't agree with their other views on banning/restricting abortions or making contraceptives harder to get. I want to see a party that is anti-immigration, but pro-choice.

You might have come to think that contraception and abortion are of great benefit, but what do they do to the nation? That's the question for nationalist parties. If you get what you want as stated in that last second paragraph you will end up being part of a dying nation in which sub-replacement birth rates are no longer disguised by inward migration.

A great part, maybe even the largest part, of the battle for nationalist parties is the battle against individualism. They don't oppose abortion because they're trying to make life hard for women. They oppose abortion because someone else's abortion isn't just a case of someone else's child being done away with. One of the nation's children is being done away with. Half of all aborted babies are female, by the way.

zom

Aleece2020 wrote: »

The main problem I have with immigration is with the negative attitudes towards women that certain groups bring with them.

So you are literally against their culture and multiculturalism in Ireland?