What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Hamachi

Aleece2020 wrote: »

These far-right parties that want to stop or limit immigration could draw in plenty of voters if they didn't run on an anti-abortion platform. They don't seem to grasp that the values of Islam that people do not want here (no access to abortion. etc.) are the same things they themselves are pushing.

I agree. For now, there is no viable right-leaning alternative in Ireland. However, the penny will drop in the coming decade. I’m pretty confident that an articulate, savvy politician will rise, agitating for tight immigration controls.

They’ll quickly figure out that they need to de-couple this approach from an anti-abortion platform or any desire to return this country to a catholic theocracy. There’s a receptive audience out there waiting for a force like this to emerge in Irish politics.

Another point is that many Irish people haven’t yet experienced multiculturalism in their daily lives. Unless you live in places like Ongar, Tyrellstown, or Balbriggan in Dublin or a small number of regional towns like Ballyhaunis, chances are that your home area remains overwhelmingly Irish, with a decent sprinkling of Eastern Europeans.

As diversity grows and spreads across the country, more people will become familiar with the demographic changes that those of us who live in West Dublin experience daily. Resistance to immigration will inevitably grow and find expression in a politician who capitalizes on the growing sense of national unease.

ExMachina1000

Hamachi wrote: »

I agree. For now, there is no viable right-leaning alternative in Ireland. However, the penny will drop in the coming decade. I’m pretty confident that an articulate, savvy politician will rise, agitating for tight immigration controls.

They’ll quickly figure out that they need to de-couple this approach from an anti-abortion platform or any desire to return this country to a catholic theocracy. There’s a receptive audience out there waiting for a force like this to emerge in Irish politics.

Another point is that many Irish people haven’t yet experienced multiculturalism in their daily lives. Unless you live in places like Ongar, Tyrellstown, or Balbriggan in Dublin or a small number of regional towns like Ballyhaunis, chances are that your home area remains overwhelmingly Irish, with a decent sprinkling of Eastern Europeans.

As diversity grows and spreads across the country, more people will become familiar with the demographic changes that those of us who live in West Dublin experience daily. Resistance to immigration will inevitably grow and find expression in a politician who capitalized on the growing sense sense of national unease.

Iv been in Ongar on a few occasions. A kip. Place feels unsafe

Hamachi

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Iv been in Ongar on a few occasions. A kip. Place feels unsafe

To be fair, it’s not particularly unsafe. It just has an extraordinarily high % of non-EU migrants, particularly from the Indian subcontinent.

I live in the area. Regardless of the census / CSO stats, my eyes tell me that 35%-40% of the Ongar population is non-EU. There’s also one primary school that I’m aware of, in which children of white European background are less than 25% of the school population.

Eric Cartman

Hamachi wrote: »

To be fair, it’s not particularly unsafe. It just has an extraordinarily high % of non-EU migrants, particularly from the Indian subcontinent.

I live in the area. Regardless of the census / CSO stats, my eyes tell me that 35%-40% of the Ongar population is non-EU. There’s also one primary school that I’m aware of, in which children of white European background are less than 25% of the school population.

I wouldn't dare allow a female relation to be out alone at night there. Half the town corners have gangs of lads from teens to 30s on any night of the week. It is visibly quite an intimidating place to be in the dark.

Hamachi

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I wouldn't dare allow a female relation to be out alone at night there. Half the town corners have gangs of lads from teens to 30s on any night of the week. It is visibly quite an intimidating place to be in the dark.

I can’t agree. My wife and a friend of hers regularly jog around the area in the evenings without incident.

Having said that, as soon as my kids reach school-going age, my family is out of here.

Eric Cartman

Hamachi wrote: »

I can’t agree. My wife and a friend of hers regularly jog around the area in the evenings without incident.

Having said that, as soon as my kids reach school-going age, my family is out of here.

I know exactly what you mean and why but do indulge the class (pun intended) and explain it for those who will disagree.

Hamachi

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I know exactly what you mean and why but do indulge the class (pun intended) and explain it for those who will disagree.

Education is very important to both my wife and I. There is no way I’ll allow my kids’ education be compromised in local schools, where a disproportionate amount of time is spent on English language acquisition. I’m not gambling with their futures so they can experience ‘diversity’.

The second reason is more prosaic. We simply want to move to a nicer area, which will have the additional benefit of being infinitely more ‘traditionally Irish’ than Ongar.

statesaver

Do you know what, it's the first time I've heard of Ongar. Never heard of it before.

seenitall

zom wrote: »

So you are literally against their culture and multiculturalism in Ireland?

What’s wrong with being against a culture that literally sees your sex as the less valuable one, there to be managed, used, bartered or disposed of as suits the stronger sex? Ever heard of FGM, “honour” killings, arranged “marriages” (aka arranged rapes), acid attacks, gang rapes or grooming gangs...?

I still can’t believe how so many people remain so willfully blind to the world. I suppose it comes from the privilege of living in places where their wives and daughters don’t have to be extra vigilant walking out, especially at night, not to mention all the other delights of cultural enrichment for us women.

The city in Eastern Europe I come from is one of the safest in the world. As a 15 year old girl, I could walk the length and breadth of it in the middle of the night after a night out, in fact I often did, and nothing ever happened or was going to happen. A million-strong city, mind you. Some areas here, in comparison, may as well be South Central LA. You won’t like this, but IMO the difference is multi-culturalism.

No one wants to go to Eastern Europe, and Eastern Europe is not all that keen on getting culturally enriched, either. And may it long stay that way, as I plan to live out my days there.

Hamachi

Hamachi wrote: »

As diversity grows and spreads across the country, more people will become familiar with the demographic changes that those of us who live in West Dublin experience daily. Resistance to immigration will inevitably grow and find expression in a politician who capitalizes on the growing sense of national unease.

I was with you until this part... I'm guessing you haven't spent much time outside of Dublin or the main population centers. The multicultural aspect of Ireland is very obvious in towns such as Athlone, Mullingar, Longford... You'll also find similar displays throughout the country with greater concentrations of Africans in towns like Tullamore.

People seem to think the cities were the only destination for our wide range of migrants. I've been encountering migrant families in Athlone for over a decade, and there was a sizable population of them in Longford, even before then. You should see the absolute state of Longford, and while a lot of that rests with the locals and Travellers, a lot also rests on the migrants who were placed there. It's a horrible place now. Never was wonderful, but... now? ugh.

I tend to return to Ireland every two-three years, and I've seen the population increases in my hometown to the point where every third face is brown/black... or obviously Eastern European.

The resistance to immigration will grow because the boom times are gone. People could ignore the costs while the economy was doing reasonably well... but with a decade long recession in the offing (and the need to recognise some hard facts about small country economies), we're likely to see a major boost in resentment over migrants and the benefits they receive. It already exists.. I heard it a lot in the pubs before the covid measures took effect... there's just the perception that there's nothing to be done about it, because the politicians in Dublin will do what they want, and not what's in the best interests of the rest of the country.

And that's why a nationalist party with a little bit of cop on will do well... people feel cheated by the mainstream parties, and while SF is seen as an alternative, nobody actually trusts them. So an alternative party with some sense behind them, and calling against immigration? Hell, I'd vote for them, if they'd revitalize a sense of national pride, and seek political reform.

seenitall

seenitall wrote: »

What’s wrong with being against a culture that literally sees your sex as the less valuable one, there to be managed, used, bartered or disposed of as suits the stronger sex? Ever heard of FGM, “honour” killings, arranged “marriages” (aka arranged rapes), acid attacks, gang rapes or grooming gangs...?

I still can’t believe how so many people remain so willfully blind to the world. I suppose it comes from the privilege of living in places where their wives and daughters don’t have to be extra vigilant walking out, especially at night, not to mention all the other delights of cultural enrichment for us women.

Ahh well, most Irish don't travel outside of Europe, except to live in other western countries, and possibly to do a few weeks in an Asian country for an adventure. People are generally focused on themselves and the range of their own experiences, so they're not going to be too interested in the negatives, because we do have a national culture of not borrowing trouble.. so people will continue to ignore the risks until it's in their faces, and even then, seek to avoid acknowledging it.

The city in Eastern Europe I come from is one of the safest in the world. As a 15 year old girl, I could walk the length and breadth of it in the middle of the night after a night out, in fact I often did, and nothing ever happened or was going to happen. A million-strong city, mind you. Some areas here, in comparison, may as well be South Central LA. You won’t like this, but IMO the difference is multi-culturalism.

You've still got multiculturalism in Eastern Europe, except it's based on Eastern European nations, the Balkans, former USSR, etc. And I'm calling BS on safety, since I've been to many countries in the area, and they're not wonderfully safe places. The difference is that the risks are known, and can, for the most part, be avoided... with a little sense of awareness (of where you are), and who you're with. But few women will be 'perfectly' safe in many EE cities..

And nowhere in Ireland is like LA.. that's pure drama.

No one wants to go to Eastern Europe, and Eastern Europe is not all that keen on getting culturally enriched, either. And may it long stay that way, as I plan to live out my days there.

Few want to go there now... because you're essentially 20 years behind Ireland. Recent entry into Europe, starting to get investment, and as that happens, the influence of the EU (and other western cultures) will grow, increasing the power of the politicians (both local and foreign), expansion of regulatory bodies, links to international bodies such as the NGOs and you'll eventually find that EE is damn similar to Ireland. Once you see salaries rise, along with services, and the push for social welfare to meet the rising quality of life, most EE countries will evolve naturally towards what Ireland is today... (I have serious hope that Poland won't)

Unless, of course, they manage to learn from the mistakes of Europe.. which is definitely possible, but EE has a long history of cultural corruption, and that will factor into how change occurs. I think you're being awfully selective in how you view EE countries, and the problems they currently face, in considering how they might develop in the future.

Cordell

seenitall wrote: »

as I plan to live out my days there.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it looks like you've been here for at least 10 years, but still you don't plan to settle here. If you don't want to really integrate, coming from a similar culture and all that, what hope can there be for non Europeans?
I'm an Eastern European immigrant myself, and I'm more concerned about what is happening here rather than hoping it's not happening there.

statesaver

klaz,

What do you mean by ' cultural corruption ' ? I have never heard of that before.

statesaver

statesaver wrote: »

klaz,

What do you mean by ' cultural corruption ' ? I have never heard of that before.

Most countries have some degree of traditional corruption (Ireland was quite corrupt before joining the EU), but there's the corruption that comes with certain cultures or political systems. With Eastern Europe, there's the corruption that continues to exist from the effects of being under a communist system. Just as Russia and China are still incredibly corrupt, both due to cultural and political influences.

This article is worth a read.

or:

"Bulgaria (43), Romania (44) and Hungary (44), come at the bottom of the Western Europe and European Union region. "Hungary, Poland, and Romania, have taken steps to undermine judicial independence, which weakens their ability to prosecute cases of high-level corruption," the report said."

seenitall

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh well, most Irish don't travel outside of Europe, except to live in other western countries, and possibly to do a few weeks in an Asian country for an adventure. People are generally focused on themselves and the range of their own experiences, so they're not going to be too interested in the negatives, because we do have a national culture of not borrowing trouble.. so people will continue to ignore the risks until it's in their faces, and even then, seek to avoid acknowledging it.



You've still got multiculturalism in Eastern Europe, except it's based on Eastern European nations, the Balkans, former USSR, etc. And I'm calling BS on safety, since I've been to many countries in the area, and they're not wonderfully safe places. The difference is that the risks are known, and can, for the most part, be avoided... with a little sense of awareness (of where you are), and who you're with. But few women will be 'perfectly' safe in many EE cities..

And nowhere in Ireland is like LA.. that's pure drama.



Few want to go there now... because you're essentially 20 years behind Ireland. Recent entry into Europe, starting to get investment, and as that happens, the influence of the EU (and other western cultures) will grow, increasing the power of the politicians (both local and foreign), expansion of regulatory bodies, links to international bodies such as the NGOs and you'll eventually find that EE is damn similar to Ireland. Once you see salaries rise, along with services, and the push for social welfare to meet the rising quality of life, most EE countries will evolve naturally towards what Ireland is today... (I have serious hope that Poland won't)

Unless, of course, they manage to learn from the mistakes of Europe.. which is definitely possible, but EE has a long history of cultural corruption, and that will factor into how change occurs. I think you're being awfully selective in how you view EE countries, and the problems they currently face, in considering how they might develop in the future.

So... you’re calling BS meaning calling me a liar on my experience of growing up in EE? That’s not very nice of you! Anyways I know where and how I grew up, I still say it was one of the safest places to grow up in general, and walk the city streets at night as a teenager, and I’ve no reason to lie on this platform as I am only joining in for a bit of banter and discussion, no skin of my nose if you don’t believe me. As far as SC LA, fair enough, if you say so. I suppose nowhere in Ireland is quite Marseille, either (where as a woman I didn’t feel quite safe to walk the main thoroughfare in broad daylight, let alone anything else).

We will see about Eastern Europe. Your argument makes sense, and Time will tell, as they say. EE is corrupt, yes. But it is also generally a rather racist area of the world, certainly going by western standards. I don’t mean the politicians’ patter here, but rather the rough and ready mentality of the man in the street. I am talking about where I come from specifically, I won’t name it though as I am obviously not being very complimentary in relation to it with saying this, but I would think it is the case for most of EE. I don’t think that kind of environment is where multi-kulti will thrive easily on the ground, especially in certain areas which have seen ethnic conflict in recent past and some of them are still seeing it or its remnants, politically. Not very attractive to your average Afghani fortune-seeker, or at least it will be a no go for him long enough for me to live out my days without worrying about being culturally enriched in my city’s Christmas market or in its Ariana Grande concert.

biko

Cordell wrote: »

when it's going to be a big issue? When it's too late to do anything about it?

In my experience, it's always when it's too late to fix things.
Leftist governments have a really really bad track record when it comes to protecting their citizens. Unfortunately this is also true for right wing governments.

zom

biko wrote: »

Leftist governments have a really really bad track record when it comes to protecting their citizens.

Leftism is not about protecting citizens. Leftism is about protecting an idea.

seenitall wrote: »

What’s wrong with being against a culture that ...

Sorry @seenitall but you got me wrong. I am not writing about someone else culture or trying to advocate it.
I am writing about liking "Multiculturalism" while being selective about it. "I like their kebab but I don't like their religion" - for example.

Actually this is popular social construct in modern Ireland when you see great number of people bashing catholic church at the same time enjoying St Patrick or Christmas celebration. But this is not a "culture" anymore in my opinion...

seenitall

Cordell wrote: »

Don't take this the wrong way, but it looks like you've been here for at least 10 years, but still you don't plan to settle here. If you don't want to really integrate, coming from a similar culture and all that, what hope can there be for non Europeans?
I'm an Eastern European immigrant myself, and I'm more concerned about what is happening here rather than hoping it's not happening there.

You and I may both be Eastern Europeans, but our objectives in relation to this country differ. I came to Ireland when I was at a loss and a very low point in my life, less of an economic immigrant than a kind of an exile from my country of birth (personal reasons). That’s how it still feels, however life goes on, I have built a life here, I work and hopefully contribute to my community well, my daughter is Irish and, being Irish, she will probably make her life here.

It isn’t about me not wanting to integrate. I love Ireland, it’s my second home, I know Ireland well by now, the thought of it is always familiar and comforting. I’ll never forget Ireland. However, it’s true, I’ve never truly settled, I don’t feel settled because my exiled, wanderer soul is looking to move on. It is perhaps because of this innate restlessness that I have never properly clicked with the Irish mentality. I find the Irish to be a very conformist nation in the main (perhaps not unlike any other Northern European nation). Which is great for them, an ordered life is a good one, an ordered country good to live in. Coupled up, a semi-D
in the suburbs, 2.3 kids, a dog, and two vehicles in the drive.

But the pervasive embrace of the conformity grates on me, and once again I’ve found I don’t belong.

Luckily, my profession is one that is well suited to international mobility. So my plan is to set out on foreign adventures again, as soon as my daughter starts telling me I’m a nuisance and to butt out of her business.
There is no Property or anything else really keeping me here. So who knows what awaits. Life is short and we have to follow our hearts, don’t you think? I just have a vague feeling that I will come full Circle somewhere in the future and end up in my home city again. Or maybe not, but it is a very good option to have. I now know that it is a place with a nice quality of life and I have more respect for it as such than back when I was growing up, taking it for granted, of course.
So if and when I leave Ireland, it will be from a position of empowerment and choice, and I am very grateful to Ireland for giving me all that it has!

seenitall

seenitall wrote: »

So... you’re calling BS meaning calling me a liar on my experience of growing up in EE? That’s not very nice of you! Anyways I know where and how I grew up, I still say it was one of the safest places to grow up in general, and walk the city streets at night as a teenager, and I’ve no reason to lie on this platform as I am only joining in for a bit of banter and discussion, no skin of my nose if you don’t believe me.

Well, I don't know where you grew up or when... but sure, if we're talking about twenty/thirty years ago, then yeah, probably it was a much safer place. Hell, my own hometown was generally very safe 30 years ago. Now? Very few people (male or female) would risk walking around past midnight, due to the perceived risk (as opposed to actual crime).

The world has changed considerably in the last 30 years. Some of that is multiculturalism.. a lot more are the changes within our own societies. I generally live in a city of 9 million people in China. I feel it to be completely safe, and have walked around at all hours... but I know, in reality, it's not safe. Not for Chinese people, and not for the stupid/unaware. It's not LA but depending on the district, It could be very risky for non-fatal muggings, or such.

And.. you've been on these forums long enough to know that people will disagree with you. Argue your points.. don't expect them to be automatically accepted.

As far as SC LA, fair enough, if you say so. I suppose nowhere in Ireland is quite Marseille, either (where as a woman I didn’t feel quite safe to walk the main thoroughfare in broad daylight, let alone anything else).

Marseille? That's quite a leap... considering you're talking about a large port, with a large population of migrants from throughout the Mediterranean (even before mass migration), and more importantly, serious crime with real violence from criminal gangs. I spent time growing up in Provence, so I'm quite aware of the trouble that city went through in the past.. so, noooo... Ireland has nothing similar to Marseille in terms of the sheer brutality of the crime involved.

We will see about Eastern Europe. Your argument makes sense, and Time will tell, as they say. EE is corrupt, yes. But it is also generally a rather racist area of the world, certainly going by western standards.

In reality, everywhere is more racist by western standards. The standards/expectations on racism are completely unrealistic. It's a vain gesture of moral superiority... and while we have laws in place to prevent discrimination, I suspect that actual racism is growing due to these absurd standards.. You see, I rather love the various cultures in EE... just as I love many aspects of the Asian cultures. Often very pragmatic and realistic (other times not, but generally there's less posturing)

Personally, individually, I have no issues with Black people... I couldn't care less what colour, gender, whatever you are. But when I encounter a group of black guys, I'll cross the street. Hell, I'll do the same with white people. What I said above could easily be considered racist.. although I see it as being careful. But I do have "racist" ideas. I don't like modern black culture. I've been to their bars, clubs, etc (in Asia, Africa, and the US), and I've seen how they treat each other publicly, and.. I don't want any part of it. It just doesn't suit me. That's apparently racist too. As I said, the standard is too high, because avoidance or the desire not to completely accept them, is racist. Yay.

I don’t mean the politicians’ patter here, but rather the rough and ready mentality of the man in the street. I am talking about where I come from specifically, I won’t name it though as I am obviously not being very complimentary in relation to it with saying this, but I would think it is the case for most of EE. I don’t think that kind of environment is where multi-kulti will thrive easily on the ground, especially in certain areas which have seen ethnic conflict in recent past and some of them are still seeing it or its remnants, politically. Not very attractive to your average Afghani fortune-seeker, or at least it will be a no go for him long enough for me to live out my days without worrying about being culturally enriched in my city’s Christmas market or in its Ariana Grande concert.

Oh, I'm aware of the general perception towards, say, Black people or Africans. The same distrust/dislike is often directed towards Asians, although that's more of a Russian thing than EE.

And oddly enough, I can remember a similar attitude in Ireland. Not necessarily racism, the meaning has shifted so much in recent years, but more to do with ignorance, and unintentional negative reactions. With exposure came acceptance (or genuine dislike).

The funny thing for me is that I've found a lot of similarities between the Ireland I grew up in (30-40 years ago) with Poland, China, etc Ireland now? Not so much, but that's what happens when you get the illusion of being wealthy... which will likely happen to EE and is already happening in China. Immigration rises. Attitudes shift over time. etc. (although considering the way the world is heading with economics, recessions, and politics, we could end up going the opposite way too... the easy times of the last 20 years are probably finished)

3DataModem

Is some people's perception of their quality of life impacted by MCism? Yes
Is that sometimes based on fact? Yes
Should that affect our willingness to embrace MCism and cultural diversity? No

3DataModem

3DataModem wrote: »

Is some people's perception of their quality of life impacted by MCism? Yes
Is that sometimes based on fact? Yes
Should that affect our willingness to embrace MCism and cultural diversity? No

why not?

3DataModem

3DataModem wrote: »

Should that affect our willingness to embrace MCism and cultural diversity? No

Despite your experience, you cant not be willing to embrace cultural diversity. Think of all the advantages:

•different food options
•
•

Jesus, lads, I'm struggling here.
What have I missed?

Wibbs

Hamachi wrote: »

I
As diversity grows and spreads across the country, more people will become familiar with the demographic changes that those of us who live in West Dublin experience daily. Resistance to immigration will inevitably grow and find expression in a politician who capitalizes on the growing sense of national unease.

Maybe, but going on other multicultural nations it's almost entirely an urban problem and usually specific areas. And as you noted it's already started here. The usual trajectory is areas attract one demographic or the other, with some there are few enough issues, with others more. With the more problematic, the locals start to move away when they get the chance(White flight) and the areas become more and more one demographic and more distant from the host culture. For most of the native population they can essentially ignore it from some distance, doubly so for rural populations.

3DataModem wrote: »

Is some people's perception of their quality of life impacted by MCism? Yes
Is that sometimes based on fact? Yes
Should that affect our willingness to embrace MCism and cultural diversity? No

And again why? Why is this multiculturalism - and it's always of a remarkably narrow kind when being discussed - such a positive when the positives as we've seen on this thread are extremely hard to pin down and the negatives so obvious?

I would bought into the diversity stuff years ago, before I looked too deeply at it. It was a handed down belief mostly born of those nations trying to deal with it. The more I look, the more of an empty marketing term it seems to be. Even in the space of this thread. I have been genuinely surprised at how poor the pro diversity argument has turned out to be. It basically boils down to exoticism with a hint of charity. I really thought there would be much better arguments for the politic itself. A holdover from the vague belief I had in it myself.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe, but going on other multicultural nations it's almost entirely an urban problem and usually specific areas. And as you noted it's already started here. The usual trajectory is areas attract one demographic or the other, with some there are few enough issues, with others more. With the more problematic, the locals start to move away when they get the chance(White flight) and the areas become more and more one demographic and more distant from the host culture. For most of the native population they can essentially ignore it from some distance, doubly so for rural populations.

I think the size of a country, and whether it has connected land borders with other countries plays into this. Ireland is small.. really small in comparison to other countries (and the density of towns/villages), who might have a land border, which allows populations to spread outwards (thereby creating more cities). In Ireland, there's little actual distance between our cities (and TBF Dublin is the only really city comparable in size/pop to other countries).

So, we'll see a greater degree of migrants being spread into the rest of the country, simply because to many, Athlone could be considered a suburb of Dublin. I know that most Irish don't really appreciate/recognise the commute time that's common with many foreign cities, instead with their perceptions focused on Ireland (ie. an hour commute being something terrible).. but people coming from abroad, will be less sensitive to commuting an hour or two. Besides, the government has done a lot to push migrants into the countryside towns.

Whereas in somewhere like France where cities are much larger, and migrant populations will mostly center around them, or their recognised suburbs. I think a lot depends on whether the government has a plan to settle migrants in certain areas, and whether these migrants stay put after their initial settlement is finished.

And again why? Why is this multiculturalism - and it's always of a remarkably narrow kind when being discussed - such a positive when the positives as we've seen on this thread are extremely hard to pin down and the negatives so obvious?

I would bought into the diversity stuff years ago, before I looked too deeply at it. It was a handed down belief mostly born of those nations trying to deal with it. The more I look, the more of an empty marketing term it seems to be. Even in the space of this thread. I have been genuinely surprised at how poor the pro diversity argument has turned out to be. It basically boils down to exoticism with a hint of charity. I really thought there would be much better arguments for the politic itself. A holdover from the vague belief I had in it myself.

Ditto. I've been kinda shocked at how poor the arguments have turned out about multiculturalism, and yet, it's pushed so hard in the media and politics. Surely, we would see some great arguments to show the positives with clear evidence to reinforce the benefits, but I've seen very very little of that.. and only of the most superficial of benefits (with more serious negatives hidden and ignored)

MikeOxsgreen

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Despite your experience, you cant not be willing to embrace cultural diversity. Think of all the advantages:

•different food options
•
•

Jesus, lads, I'm struggling here.
What have I missed?

An injection of DNA to stop our inbreeding...

a range of skills which Irish people don't have, but people from a poor 3rd world nation do have. Add in innovation and creativity there. Supposedly.

Um..

seenitall

You misunderstood me about Marseille there, klaz. I wasn’t being sarcastic, Ireland is nowhere near that level of multi-culturalism yet. Marseille just popped into my head as an example of a city that certainly doesn’t feel French or European in any way, shape or form. It was a scary experience for me, and this was 20 years ago. I suppose it was my first encounter with the, er, touchy-feely (trying to be polite here) in-your-faceness of the Arabic world.

The time element might have something to do with the safety aspect, ok; not all of the safety aspect is covered by it IMV, but certainly in relation to that subject I could talk about the difference in living under a weakening communist on-its-last-legs system versus living in an ‘in transition’, free economy, free-for-all one. I’ve experienced both, and then something different yet again by living in Ireland. Most things have their benefits and drawbacks, even those dichotomies. But that is really straying far off topic of the thread and is a very complex discussion, so for some other thread.

ETA: In conveying my experience, I was arguing my point. What I don’t expect to be is challenged as a liar just because my experience of living in a certain area of EE doesn’t tally with your one.

seenitall

seenitall wrote: »

You misunderstood me about Marseille there, klaz. I wasn’t being sarcastic, Ireland is nowhere near that level of multi-culturalism yet. Marseille just popped into my head as an example of a city that certainly doesn’t feel French or European in any way, shape or form. It was a scary experience for me, and this was 20 years ago. I suppose it was my first encounter with the, er, touchy-feely (trying to be polite here) in-your-faceness of the Arabic world.

Um, I didn't think you were being sarcastic. I assumed that you were making an actual comparison, suggesting that some places in Ireland would be similar to Marseille or LA. I'll admit my ability to detect sarcasm has disappeared over the last year on boards, so I tend to assume that people are being direct.

As for first experiences, I visited Egypt when I was a teen, and I seriously didn't enjoy the experience. Since then, as an adult, I've traveled extensively throughout the M.East, staying just over two months in Iran, and while I've found aspects to the various cultures that I appreciate, I wouldn't be very comfortable with the pervasive aspect of Islam... There's too much of a two-faces to everyone.. with people being open minded until their religious persona kicks in. I've seen similar in China, where people will suddenly switch to a political mindset, and all the years of indoctrination just kick in.. it's creepy.

The time element might have something to do with the safety aspect, ok; not all of the safety aspect is covered by it IMV, but certainly in relation to that subject I could talk about the difference in living under a weakening communist on-its-last-legs system versus living in an ‘in transition’, free economy, free-for-all one. I’ve experienced both, and then something different yet again by living in Ireland. Most things have their benefits and drawbacks, even those dichotomies. But that is really straying far off topic of the thread and is a very complex discussion, so for some other thread.

What is IMV? In my view? Well, I spent 6 months living between Moscow and St. Petersburg over a decade ago, and I first went to Russia, almost two decades ago, so I have some understanding of what you're talking about. With China, you can still see the effects of a communist system on the people and society. With EE I've been visiting various countries repeatedly for two decades, as I have friends there (both native and expats)

ETA: In conveying my experience, I was arguing my point. What I don’t expect to be is challenged as a liar just because my experience of living in a certain area of EE doesn’t tally with your one.

I didn't call you a liar. I called BS on your statement. Simply stating your opinion is not making an argument. When called upon statements, provide links to establish your POV.. you could have asked me to back up my statements... rather than relying on an emotional response of being offended. (being called a liar). You're simply expecting people to accept your POV.. and in many cases, they will... but you made a comparison between places in Ireland with LA. Come on.. seriously?

Gervais08

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Despite your experience, you cant not be willing to embrace cultural diversity. Think of all the advantages:

•different food options
•
•

Jesus, lads, I'm struggling here.
What have I missed?

According to a mate’s deluded girlfriend “der babbies are sooooooo cute”’

seenitall

Deleted User wrote: »

Um, I didn't think you were being sarcastic. I assumed that you were making an actual comparison, suggesting that some places in Ireland would be similar to Marseille or LA. I'll admit my ability to detect sarcasm has disappeared over the last year on boards, so I tend to assume that people are being direct.

As for first experiences, I visited Egypt when I was a teen, and I seriously didn't enjoy the experience. Since then, as an adult, I've traveled extensively throughout the M.East, staying just over two months in Iran, and while I've found aspects to the various cultures that I appreciate, I wouldn't be very comfortable with the pervasive aspect of Islam... There's too much of a two-faces to everyone.. with people being open minded until their religious persona kicks in. I've seen similar in China, where people will suddenly switch to a political mindset, and all the years of indoctrination just kick in.. it's creepy.



What is IMV? In my view? Well, I spent 6 months living between Moscow and St. Petersburg over a decade ago, and I first went to Russia, almost two decades ago, so I have some understanding of what you're talking about. With China, you can still see the effects of a communist system on the people and society.



I didn't call you a liar. I called BS on your statement. Simply stating your opinion is not making an argument. When called upon statements, provide links to establish your POV.. you could have asked me to back up my statements... rather than relying on an emotional response of being offended. (being called a liar). You're simply expecting people to accept your POV.. and in many cases, they will... but you made a comparison between places in Ireland with LA. Come on.. seriously?

IMV (yes, in my view!) “calling BS on someone’s statement” is calling them a liar, you obviously have a different definition, fine; now that you’ve explained it, I accept it’s a misunderstanding.
I did accept your point on LA, it wasn’t a good call to mention it anywhere in relation to IRE; however I am still not very likely to provide links to my lived experience, as there very well may not even exist a link to my lived experience; the same way I wouldn’t think to ask you to provide links to your anecdotes of life in China - to me that would seem a weird, OTT and not a very realistic thing to expect, but again, each to their own manner of discussion.

It’s interesting what different people get out of their experiences. For you, it’s the two-facedness that sticks out with Islam. For me, it is the disrespect directed at my sex which takes precedence in any considerations. (No two-facedness there.) Everyone itches where they’ve been bitten I suppose. Although I have to say there is much more than religion at play, it is a cultural thing that grates, I find. Some of the most disrespectful men I’ve met in Ireland, in terms of treatment of women, have been Hindi.

seenitall

seenitall wrote: »

IMV (yes, in my view!) “calling BS on someone’s statement” is calling them a liar, you obviously have a different definition, fine; now that you’ve explained it, I accept it’s a misunderstanding.
I did accept your point on LA, it wasn’t a good call to mention it anywhere in relation to IRE; however I am still not very likely to provide links to my lived experience, as there very well may not even exist a link to my lived experience; the same way I wouldn’t think to ask you to provide links to your anecdotes of life in China - to me that would seem a weird, OTT and not a very realistic thing to expect, but again, each to their own manner of discussion.

If you disagree with anything I've said.. raise the point, and I'll defend my statement(s). Either with logic, or with links, but ultimately I'll end up finding articles or stats to support myself. If opposed. I expect the same from any other poster.

It’s interesting what different people get out of their experiences. For you, it’s the two-facedness that sticks out with Islam. For me, it is the disrespect directed at my sex which takes precedence in any considerations. (No two-facedness there.) Everyone itches where they’ve been bitten I suppose. Although I have to say there is much more than religion at play, it is a cultural thing that grates, I find. Some of the most disrespectful men I’ve met in Ireland, in terms of treatment of women, have been Hindi.

Where religion has retained greater influence, society and religion tend to be intertwined closely. Europe has seen a decline of religion in the affairs of mainstream society, and EE, due to communism, has seen similar (although it's made something of a comeback in Poland). Still, Eastern cultures tend to have stronger connections between religion and society. So there's greater interplay between customs, taboos, etc