What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Wibbs

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Sean Moncrief had that Ivanna person on his show earlier. I missed the interview but caught the part where he read out comments sent in. Apparently according to many listeners only racists voted for it and some poll found that 71% of people are now in favour of turning it over.

Like I said earlier, the PR machine is in play here and you will hear more of these "polls", along with sob stories involving doe eyed children coming to a sympathetic media outlet near you. Newstalk being an obvious one. Moncrieff being so right on and right on message he's a given(the utter scutter that eejit has had on his show...). The Journal will be another obvious one. The Irish Times. I suspect RTE not so much as they're the organ of FF and FG depending on whose in power and they're not keen on it, neither are the EU, for obvious reasons, unless you're Ivanna Batsh1t and the other gilded "socialists" in the Labour party.

However, what you will not hear is any suggestion of actually putting this to a democratic vote, because the previous outing returned one of the highest majorities of any referendum in the history of the Irish state and they know damned well that a rerun would almost certainly see their nonsense rejected. Again.

Yellow_Fern

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Sean Moncrief had that Ivanna person on his show earlier. I missed the interview but caught the part where he read out comments sent in. Apparently according to many listeners only racists voted for it and some poll found that 71% of people are now in favour of turning it over.

The moderate majority have to get their voice heard before it is too late.

Kivaro

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The moderate majority have to get their voice heard before it is too late.

Not one of the existing parties in this country will give us that voice.
We need a new party with no civil-war cobwebs to give us a fresh start.

Yellow_Fern

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The moderate majority have to get their voice heard before it is too late.

The question though is how. You're not going to get any support from the media, and you're likely to pushed very quickly into the same camp as white supremacists and fascists. Moderates seem to be the new right. And considering the way the tech companies have gone, you'd be banned from social media or simply prevented from showing up in searches online.

While I'm not one for conspiracy theories, it is interesting how many obstacles have been put in play to prevent people from going against the "approved" messaging.

Strumms

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The moderate majority have to get their voice heard before it is too late.

Agreed.

Unfortunately when the moderate majority DO speak up.... they get called racists by these vile little pig like urchins.

If I get a call tomorrow from the HSE or whatever and told that the property which I own, is to be compulsory purchased, I’m being given 4/5ths of the market value and that my property WILL be used to house asylum seekers, I have until March to get out...

If I threatened my solicitor on them, am I a racist ?

Or do I just want to keep the home which I’ve paid for, worked for, spent weeks of my life working on....

Money that I and WE have worked hard to amass, through taxes, via our hard work, paying vat, income and an array of other taxes... in a democracy, are we of the ability to say how this money should be spent, where it is spent and on who it’s being spent ? Without being labeled racists ?

Zico

100 years since a bloodbath set our destiny to nationhood we've done well for ourselves.

Sent our migrants far and wide but spit on any that fall on our shores.

Strumms

Zico wrote: »

100 years since a bloodbath set our destiny to nationhood we've done well for ourselves.

Sent our migrants far and wide but spit on any that fall on our shores.

We don’t spit, we have accepted, paid for, funded, supported literally thousands... given cash, accommodation, medical treatments advice... we simply want when we need to, to limit the numbers arriving... not exactly by anybody’s definition... spitting, quite the opposite...

We’d still be facilitating those here... not being in a position to accept more equates to spitting? Sorry, can’t agree there.

Gervais08

Zico wrote: »

100 years since a bloodbath set our destiny to nationhood we've done well for ourselves.

Sent our migrants far and wide but spit on any that fall on our shores.

Yeah - except that’s bollocks.

We feed and clothe and look after them; even when they lie their arse off as to why they’re here and how they arrived.

TomTomTim

Zico wrote: »

100 years since a bloodbath set our destiny to nationhood we've done well for ourselves.

Sent our migrants far and wide but spit on any that fall on our shores.

This sounds like a headline for a Journal.ie opinion piece.

Wibbs

Zico wrote: »

100 years since a bloodbath set our destiny to nationhood we've done well for ourselves.

Sent our migrants far and wide but spit on any that fall on our shores.

This comparison again? Well since this argument makes a regular appearance(though usually posted and never backed up), here's my previous reply:

The same worn out threadbare "argument" that keeps being peddled as if Irish emigration is a mirror of the current form. Only it isn't and for a few reasons and yet again I'll explain why because this silly argument seems to have legs:

1) In the vast majority of cases Irish immigrants were going to ex colonies of Europe founded upon and utterly reliant upon immigration. When those nations reached a population level that didn't require immigration in such numbers their criteria became significantly more limited and numbers let through dropped off a cliff. Getting into America in the 1890's was mostly a case of having the fare to get there, getting into American today? Well have a go and see.

2) The Irish and other immigrant groups going to such places had almost no social safety net, no social welfare, no social housing. It was sink, swim or charity. And a fair amount of exploitation.

3) European nations today are very different societies that have quite different needs. Cheap low education labour is a contracting market. We are not colonies that required masses of non native people. Ireland in particular has the highest birth rate in the EU so doesn't fit into that usual oh "we need more babies" stuff, though that is still peddled here. Well it's the same multicultural script everywhere, no sense in changing it.

nj27

I wonder will there be songs written in future about how migrants arriving in Ireland worked themselves to death like there are about the Irish in America.

Gervais08

nj27 wrote: »

I wonder will there be songs written in future about how migrants arriving in Ireland worked themselves to death like there are about the Irish in America.

I imagine Gangs of Balbriggan will be a VERY different story to Gangs of New York!!!

Arthur Daley

No doubt Bono was working on a little ditty over lockdown.

Zico

Zico wrote: »

100 years since a bloodbath set our destiny to nationhood we've done well for ourselves.

Sent our migrants far and wide but spit on any that fall on our shores.

Guys/Gals, he's baiting. There's no substance to his post. Even his grasp of Irish history is flawed.

ByTheSea2019

There should be a proper debate about immigration policy. Whenever we have emigrated we have been subjected to the relevant laws and visa systems or taken the consequences where we didn't (undocumented Irish in the US). We are entitled to respect our own borders too.

I spent many years in the UK and I began to understand the resentment towards migrands when I met an Asian immigrant doing an unskilled role, low paid so paying very little in tax, with four adult sisters and his mother not working at home, at the same time planning how to get more distant relatives like uncles from his country over too.

I believe that migrants can contribute enormously but you have to have the laws in place to convince the native population that the system cannot be gamed.

vriesmays

Zico wrote: »

100 years since a bloodbath set our destiny to nationhood we've done well for ourselves.

Sent our migrants far and wide but spit on any that fall on our shores.

How many Irish went to Nigeria, Zimbabwe and Albania or can't you tell this difference.

ByTheSea2019

ByTheSea2019 wrote: »

I believe that migrants can contribute enormously but you have to have the laws in place to convince the native population that the system cannot be gamed.

We also need some realism.

Take the meat packing complaints. RTE ran this on the main news and have since promoted it on a variety of other platforms. Basically, they took the account of an unnamed migrant who stated that she came to Ireland to work and make money. Fine. I can certainly understand that... but everyone knows that packing meat or slaughtering tends to be really low quality work, with low pay. It certainly was when I worked in a fish gutting factory in the west of Ireland almost twenty years ago.

So, this immigrant has come to Ireland to make money, but ends up working in a very low end job, that requires little in the way of skills/education... but is completely unsatisfied with the working conditions and the pay she receives. But she hasn't changed jobs to become a marketing executive, teacher, or any range of professional jobs, where, typically a reasonably decent income exists.

And we're supposed to feel outraged over this, and to damn the meat company for not paying unskilled labor enough.. even though, this is still a capitalist driven economy.. supposedly.

We need to be driving the acknowledgement of realism. I live, and work abroad, because I have decent education/skills/experience to net me the jobs that will provide me with a good income. I could live in Ireland, earn more, pay more in tax, etc, but it doesn't actually make sense, due to the costs in getting set up here, and the cost of living overall. I'd be paying back the cost of moving for a year or two afterwards.

These migrants that have come to a first world nation, which has no strong industry for low skilled workers.. need to be told the realities of life... if they want to work without the skills/education, then they should have immigrated to a country which had such an industry. Ireland is not one of those countries.... and we shouldn't have to make up the difference because she planned badly.

Immigration services need to start checking whether people can actually get employed here, and not just employed, but be able to earn enough to live a reasonably decent lifestyle. It's completely irresponsible not to check, and deny those who can't...

Bobtheman

Hamachi wrote: »

You have no idea if multiculturalism is a concern or not. That’s your personal opinion, nothing more. The problem is that we no sense of the prevailing sentiment amongst the Irish population.

There’s never been a national debate; all concerns around immigration are ruthlessly suppressed. Ireland is slavishly following the same playbook that was employed in the UK and throughout continental Europe. Immigration is ramped up to unsustainably high levels and any indigenous who have the audacity to express concern, are branded as racist and ostracized socially.

The problem with this strategy is the pot eventually boils over as we have seen with Brexit and the emergence of Marine Le Pen and the AFD. Personally, I foresee a significant right-leaning party evolving in Ireland in the 2030s if the current levels of demographic change persist.

Nobody has an issue with Eastern Europeans migrating here. The overwhelmingly majority are economically active and their children blend almost seamlessly into the background population. They aren’t bringing religious or cultural baggage that adversely impacts Ireland.

There is simply no need for substantial extra-European inward migration, apart from filling a tiny subset of highly specialized roles. It’s utterly farcical to claim that many positions cannot be filled either domestically or from the ~500 million European citizens who can freely migrate to this country.

The student visa fiasco also needs to be investigated and tightened significantly. It’s simply ridiculous that thousands of Latin Americans, primarily Brazilians and Venezuelans, are arriving here to attend dubious English-language schools and overstaying their temporary visas by multiple years. I have nothing against these folks personally. I know some Brazilians pretty well and they are very genial, kind-hearted people.

Nevertheless, the situation whereby student visas are used as a mechanism to access this country, needs to be overhauled. I would also point the finger at the Italian government, who are handing out citizenship like confetti to Latin Americans with very distant Italian ancestry. This is another loophole that’s currently being exploited to remain in Ireland.

We’re facing a decade long Covid-induced recession. The time has come to tighten migration channels to Ireland and ensure that those who come here are high caliber, economically active participants in society, who will ultimately benefit this country. If you don’t meet these criteria, there’s no place for you here.

I agree with you it's hard to have a proper debate on immigration in Ireland. I don't know much about the student visa issue. But there won't be a decade long covid recession. That's total and utter bull****.

Now you've got a minister for state criticising the department of housing for being critical of the Day report.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/department-of-housing-crossed-the-line-in-criticising-asylum-seeker-plans-o-brien-says-1.4421732?mode=amp

"However, Green Party Minister of State for Community Development Joe O’Brien accused the Department of Housing of “not being very collegiate” and warned that its language would pit vulnerable people against each other."

“Of course it’s their job to flag barriers and difficulties with [the Day report], but I think they’ve crossed the line in going further and pushing back against the proposed policy. What they’re doing is very unconstructive,” he said.

Saying he was “surprised and disappointed” by the department’s opposition, Mr O’Brien said the Programme for Government calls for “annualised” spending to pay for changes to asylum seeker housing.

The Department of Rural and Community Development is eager, the Minister of State said, to engage with local communities ahead of going ahead with plans to house asylum seekers."

"While the Government is moving closer to ending direct provision, Minister for Integration Roderic O’Gorman said, accommodation must be ensured for asylum seekers who arrive in the meantime. Full supports will be offered, he added.

Each family will have their own apartment, in line with the National Standards for Accommodation Centres that were adopted in 2019 and which come into effect on January 1st next year.

Saying that Letterkenny is a “welcoming town”, Mr O’Gorman said a “friends of the centre” group will be set up to promote integration between residents and the local community.

Claiming that no consultation has taken place on the issue, however, Letterkenny-based Independent councillor Michael McBride said questions had been asked months ago when rumours first spread, but no reply came.

Putting a figure of 350 on the number of people likely to arrive, though this is not confirmed, Cllr McBride questioned whether schools and medical services can cope with such extra numbers."

Kivaro

Deleted User wrote: »

.....
Claiming that no consultation has taken place on the issue, however, Letterkenny-based Independent councillor Michael McBride said questions had been asked months ago when rumours first spread, but no reply came.

Putting a figure of 350 on the number of people likely to arrive, though this is not confirmed, Cllr McBride questioned whether schools and medical services can cope with such extra numbers."

How many times have we heard these same comments when the government embedded Direct Provision centres on unprepared communities all around the country?
So either the government have not learned from previous experiences setting up DP centres or they just don't care what the local communities think. I am most certain that it is the latter.

And it is astounding that a small political party, the Green Party, that only received 7% of the vote in the last general election, can seek to cause the majority of the country so much harm with their unrealistic and unworkable policies.

Hamachi

Bobtheman wrote: »

I agree with you it's hard to have a proper debate on immigration in Ireland. I don't know much about the student visa issue. But there won't be a decade long covid recession. That's total and utter bull****.

The student visa issue isn’t the only thing you don’t know much about.

Listen to any of the economic commentary. The entire world is facing a sustained economic downturn. Ireland, as a small open economy, dependent on international trade is uniquely vulnerable. That’s before we even discuss the impact of Brexit i.e. our largest trading partner leaving the economic union. Bulls**t indeed..

I’ve read your posts throughout this thread. Frankly, you don’t appear to understand very many of the nuances around migration issues. The fact that the entire student visa debacle is opaque to you, pretty much says it all. I suggest you educate yourself a little on the fundamentals and then return to the thread when you have something worthwhile to contribute.

Bobtheman

Bobtheman wrote: »

I agree with you it's hard to have a proper debate on immigration in Ireland. I don't know much about the student visa issue. But there won't be a decade long covid recession. That's total and utter bull****.

The problem is that Western nations were facing a recession before covid appeared. It was expected to happen because of the growth in debt financing among companies (and State funded institutions), combined with issues to do with the international markets.

Covid has managed to overshadow that expected recession, and make the overall experience much worse than it would have been before, but that expected recession would have been bad regardless.

I expect the decade long recession is about the recession itself, and the expected time for recovery, which is actually in line, with experiences of past recessions. For Ireland, the problem is that the recessions have hit immediately after boom periods, so the effects are harsher due to the differences in quality of life, but make no mistake, Ireland (and most western nations) are expected to have some harsh years ahead of them, and there is no reliable research/analysis to suggest when we'll come out of it.

A lot of it depends on China/the US.. because their games affect the global market so much, on so many levels, causing waves of damage (intentionally or unintentionally) to spread outwards. Ireland has a double weakness because so many of their companies are US based, but also growing trade links with China..

TBH, I'm expecting at least a decade of a downturn for Ireland, because it hasn't been preparing for coming out of the boom period, simply expecting it to continue forever. There hasn't been enough focus on modernization, and provision of education to all ages of workers in Ireland, to keep them competitive with the rest of the world. There's far too many reasons for the multinationals to move abroad, and Ireland has invested far too much into big business, rather than creating a backbone of small/medium sized businesses to provide the State with most of it's revenue, and any major company withdrawals would seriously hurt the economy, and employment.

And then, we have immigration of people who aren't better skilled than Irish people, but who will expect to be supported here. That means increased welfare costs, increased burdens on services that are already breaking, and further social issues to contend with such as racism, or extremism (from the Irish or from the migrants).

There are just too many areas that need investment... and Ireland will be facing a shrinking economy. All you have to do is drive through any of the towns in Ireland, you'll find a host of discount shops opening up, to meet the needs of people who can't afford to buy clothes, food, household from the average retailer.. that should be worrying people, but I've seen very little interest in the media, or from the government..

Kivaro

Kivaro wrote: »

And it is astounding that a small political party, the Green Party, that only received 7% of the vote in the last general election, can seek to cause the majority of the country so much harm with their unrealistic and unworkable policies.

The problem is that all the opposition parties (with the exception of I presume Aontu) are super pro asylum seekers and ending DP.

I assume the Greens made ending DP a red line issue in them getting into government so I don't expect that huge a push back from FF or FG either at a parliamentary level.

I don't think a lot of SF voters actually realise what their policies are on asylum, immigration etc so its interesting to see somewhere like Letterkenny get a DP centrewhere out of 5 TDs 2 are SF and 1 is an independent former SF who has already spoken out in favour of the DP centre.

UK and France have signed an agreement for the French to double the amount of Police patroling the coastline to prevent boat crossings via the English Channel

"British Home Secretary Priti Patel and her French counterpart Gerald Darmanin said they wanted to make the route used by more than 8,000 people this year unviable.

They agreed to double the number of French police patrolling a 150km stretch of coastline used by crossers.

However, the Home Office did not say how many more officers would be deployed.

The announcement was criticised by a charity as an “extraordinary mark of failure” akin to “rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic”.

Patel and Darmanin also agreed an enhanced package of surveillance technology, with drones, radar equipment, cameras and optronic binoculars.

It is hoped the equipment will help the French deploy officers to the right places to detect migrants and stop them before they start their journey.

The agreement also includes steps to support migrants into accommodation in France, and measures to increase border security at ports in the north and west of the country.

It builds on measures previously agreed which the Home Office said had seen the proportion of crossings intercepted and stopped rise from 41% last year to 60% in recent weeks."

https://www.thejournal.ie/uk-france-agreement-migrant-crossings-5282108-Nov2020/

Strumms

Fair play to them... simply protecting their interests, security, economy and during covid, health.

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem is that Western nations were facing a recession before covid appeared. It was expected to happen because of the growth in debt financing among companies (and State funded institutions), combined with issues to do with the international markets.

Covid has managed to overshadow that expected recession, and make the overall experience much worse than it would have been before, but that expected recession would have been bad regardless.

I expect the decade long recession is about the recession itself, and the expected time for recovery, which is actually in line, with experiences of past recessions. For Ireland, the problem is that the recessions have hit immediately after boom periods, so the effects are harsher due to the differences in quality of life, but make no mistake, Ireland (and most western nations) are expected to have some harsh years ahead of them, and there is no reliable research/analysis to suggest when we'll come out of it.

A lot of it depends on China/the US.. because their games affect the global market so much, on so many levels, causing waves of damage (intentionally or unintentionally) to spread outwards. Ireland has a double weakness because so many of their companies are US based, but also growing trade links with China..

TBH, I'm expecting at least a decade of a downturn for Ireland, because it hasn't been preparing for coming out of the boom period, simply expecting it to continue forever. There hasn't been enough focus on modernization, and provision of education to all ages of workers in Ireland, to keep them competitive with the rest of the world. There's far too many reasons for the multinationals to move abroad, and Ireland has invested far too much into big business, rather than creating a backbone of small/medium sized businesses to provide the State with most of it's revenue, and any major company withdrawals would seriously hurt the economy, and employment.

And then, we have immigration of people who aren't better skilled than Irish people, but who will expect to be supported here. That means increased welfare costs, increased burdens on services that are already breaking, and further social issues to contend with such as racism, or extremism (from the Irish or from the migrants).

There are just too many areas that need investment... and Ireland will be facing a shrinking economy. All you have to do is drive through any of the towns in Ireland, you'll find a host of discount shops opening up, to meet the needs of people who can't afford to buy clothes, food, household from the average retailer.. that should be worrying people, but I've seen very little interest in the media, or from the government..

And when you see every 3rd or 4th shop boarded up, with a "For Sale or Rent" sign on them, and even the Euro Shop had departed,,,even before Covid hit the headline's, you know for sure that there is financial trouble ahead.

Geuze

Hamachi wrote: »

There is simply no need for substantial extra-European inward migration, apart from filling a tiny subset of highly specialized roles. It’s utterly farcical to claim that many positions cannot be filled either domestically or from the ~500 million European citizens who can freely migrate to this country.

The student visa fiasco also needs to be investigated and tightened significantly. It’s simply ridiculous that thousands of Latin Americans, primarily Brazilians and Venezuelans, are arriving here to attend dubious English-language schools and overstaying their temporary visas by multiple years. I have nothing against these folks personally. I know some Brazilians pretty well and they are very genial, kind-hearted people.

Correct.

There is no need for any non-EU immigration into Ireland

Unless an employer can prove a very specific need for non-EU workers.

Outside of medicine, I see very little need for any non-EU workers.

There are tens of millions of unemployed across the EU.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

cORRECT.

There is no need for any non-EU immigration into Ireland

Unless an employer can prove a very specific need for non-EU workers.

Outside of medicine, I see very little need for any non-EU workers.

There are tens of millions of unemployed across the EU.

Along with an existing population of migrants living within the EU from outside. There are heaps of people who haven't managed to integrate..

It doesn't really make sense to continue bringing in more people from outside the EU borders, when we already have unemployed (or working bare minimum salaries) migrants spread across Europe. Let's deal with the population that currently exists...

biko

Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten have published a investigation by Unitos.
https://jyllands-posten.dk/indland/ECE11949593/stor-andel-af-indvandrerunge-har-faaet-en-dom/

The investigation was of men born 1985, 1986 and 1987 - what percentage of them that was convicted of a crime between they were 15 and 30.

Crime here were defined as fine or imprisonment for vandalism, theft, burglary, violence or robbery.
The Traffic Act is not included in the figures.

For men originating in Somalia this corresponds to 62 per cent.
For Lebanon, it was 60 percent.
For Morocco it was 54 per cent, while Iraq, Iran and Yugoslavia were above 40 per cent.
For Vietnam it was 22 per cent, and for Denmark 18 per cent.

"The figures show that a very large proportion of young men from some of the major immigrant countries have been convicted of violating the penal code," says Lasse Birk Olesen, co-founder of Unitos, and emphasizes the nuances that emerge:

"There are some countries of origin that show major crime problems, and others - mainly in Europe and Southeast Asia - that are almost down to the level of Danes."


Now, the reason many immigrants in Denmark have been convicted of a crime could be legio, but whatever that reason is the fact remains - the investigations shows a heavy slant towards immigrants for the defined crimes.

TomTomTim

biko wrote: »

Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten have published a investigation by Unitos.
https://jyllands-posten.dk/indland/ECE11949593/stor-andel-af-indvandrerunge-har-faaet-en-dom/

The investigation was of men born 1985, 1986 and 1987 - what percentage of them that was convicted of a crime between they were 15 and 30.

Crime here were defined as fine or imprisonment for vandalism, theft, burglary, violence or robbery.
The Traffic Act is not included in the figures.

For men originating in Somalia this corresponds to 62 per cent.
For Lebanon, it was 60 percent.
For Morocco it was 54 per cent, while Iraq, Iran and Yugoslavia were above 40 per cent.
For Vietnam it was 22 per cent, and for Denmark 18 per cent.

"The figures show that a very large proportion of young men from some of the major immigrant countries have been convicted of violating the penal code," says Lasse Birk Olesen, co-founder of Unitos, and emphasizes the nuances that emerge:

"There are some countries of origin that show major crime problems, and others - mainly in Europe and Southeast Asia - that are almost down to the level of Danes."


Now, the reason many immigrants in Denmark have been convicted of a crime could be legio, but whatever that reason is the fact remains - the investigations shows a heavy slant towards immigrants for the defined crimes.

The problem with stuff like this is that it matters little to the people who promote this stuff. They'll likely blame it on socio-economic reasons, which shifts the blame to the natives: "they can't get good jobs because of racism", "they feel isolated so they lash out and commit crime". They've an endless well of excuses with zero regard for the people affected by said crimes.