What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Stateofyou

Hamachi wrote: »

I’m sorry, but you are simply refusing to listen. The tiny sample size of you and your family isn’t representative. Whilst it’s great that you have embraced diversity, married internationally etc.. that’s you executing upon your specific set of values. Like I said, your family aligns to one end of the spectrum, the omega so to speak.

However, there’s an alpha, the other end of the spectrum, on which many people fall. I’ve explained to you the social dynamics in my place of employment. Whilst I accept that this is also anecdotal, I believe a workplace of > 700 employees is more representative of the reality than your family.

Many people choose to live differently to you, hold different values to you. I don’t think it’s fair to castigate them for their ‘failing’. People think and live differently to you. Surely that’s a manifestation of true, organic diversity?

No, not just my family, as I thought was quite clear. My friends and colleagues as well. There are also several foreign nationals in the rural community I live in and who our kids are friends with, who have also introduced us to their own friend groups here - also quite diverse. I wouldn't say that's tiny.

A diversity of opinion, not the context of diversity we are talking about here, so not sure where you're going with that "organic diversity" comment.
If the opposite value of being open-minding and not judging people by their 'cover' or nationality or race is not a failing in your opinion then while I wouldn't say castigate, we have a difference in values for sure.

Clarence Boddiker

The New York example is interesting, because thats what a lot of people aspire to, the Newyorkification of the world.
Even in the face of the racial atomisation and breakdown which is occurring right now today in the likes of New York and London. It never occurs to them that the model they hold up as something Ireland should aspire to is already fracturing and coming apart elsewhere.
Why should it be any different here?

It also never occurs to them that they have been conditioned to view Nationalism and ethnic cohesion as some kind of evil, a societal aberration. They don't realise that the Multicultural idea has nothing to do with high minded ideals or humanitarianism, rather its about raw Capitalism, Consumerism and financialism.

DelaneyIn

What do the Native Americans make of the diversity and multiculturalism in New York City?

Hamachi

Stateofyou wrote: »

A diversity of opinion, not the context of diversity we are talking about here, so not sure where you're going with that "organic diversity" comment.
If the opposite value of being open-minding and not judging people by their 'cover' or nationality or race is not a failing in your opinion then while I wouldn't say castigate, we have a difference in values for sure.

Hang on a second. You know nothing about my values. Just so we’re clear, I’ve lived abroad for quite a few years and speak a major European language well enough to work in a professional environment. I’ve already that stated that immigration is a positive, on the proviso that it’s of decent caliber and that the flow is regulated.

The point that’s been made repeatedly to you is that very many people are ambivalent at best about diversity and aren’t particularly interested in lovely friendships with people of different backgrounds. They don’t actively discriminate against others, nor do they necessarily prejudge others by their background or ethnicity. They simply like their lives and their society the way it currently is and do not desire or seek out change.

Frankly, they are entitled to live that way if they choose to do so without being branded for their ‘failings’ or for not being sufficiently ‘open minded’ in your view. Furthermore, if people have concerns about changing demographics and the pace of migration, they are entitled to articulate those views in a democracy. We can see the consequences of dismissing and ignoring the views of other people all over Europe.

Do you really want to see somebody like Marine Le Pen with her hands on the levers of power? This is inevitable if people like you can’t accept that large swathes of the population live and think differently to you and aren’t willing to engage in a dialogue to discuss their sometimes legitimate concerns.

Tony EH

Using New York as a example of racial harmony and "multiculturalism" is way off the mark, when for much of its existence it was anything but. And the only reason why there is more intermingling of races and cultures today in the boroughs is largely down to the cost of rent and buying. But that certainly doesn't point to a successful experiment in multiculturalism.

ExMachina1000

Hamachi wrote: »

Hang on a second. You know nothing about my values. Just so we’re clear, I’ve lived abroad for quite a few years and speak a major European language well enough to work in a professional environment. I’ve already that stated that immigration is a positive, on the proviso that it’s of decent caliber and that the flow is regulated.

The point that’s been made repeatedly to you is that very many people are ambivalent at best about diversity and aren’t particularly interested in lovely friendships with people of different backgrounds. They don’t actively discriminate against others, nor do they necessarily prejudge others by their background or ethnicity. They simply like their lives and their society the way it currently is and do not desire or seek out change.

Frankly, they are entitled to live that way if they choose to do so without being branded for their ‘failings’ or for not being sufficiently ‘open minded’ in your view. Furthermore, if people have concerns about changing demographics and the pace of migration, they are entitled to articulate those views in a democracy. We can see the consequences of dismissing and ignoring the views of other people all over Europe.

Do you really want to see somebody like Marine Le Pen with her hands on the levers of power? This is inevitable if people like you can’t accept that large swathes of the population live and think differently to you and aren’t willing to engage in a dialogue to discuss their sometimes legitimate concerns.

It is inevitable that as immigration into Europe increases the support for the right and further right will grow.

Austria and Denmark now have governments considered to be far right.
Immigration is one way traffic. All into the western world.

It is not sustainable

Nesta2018

Hamachi wrote: »

Hang on a second. You know nothing about my values. Just so we’re clear, I’ve lived abroad for quite a few years and speak a major European language well enough to work in a professional environment. I’ve already that stated that immigration is a positive, on the proviso that it’s of decent caliber and that the flow is regulated.

The point that’s been made repeatedly to you is that very many people are ambivalent at best about diversity and aren’t particularly interested in lovely friendships with people of different backgrounds. They don’t actively discriminate against others, nor do they necessarily prejudge others by their background or ethnicity. They simply like their lives and their society the way it currently is and do not desire or seek out change.

Frankly, they are entitled to live that way if they choose to do so without being branded for their ‘failings’ or for not being sufficiently ‘open minded’ in your view. Furthermore, if people have concerns about changing demographics and the pace of migration, they are entitled to articulate those views in a democracy. We can see the consequences of dismissing and ignoring the views of other people all over Europe.

Do you really want to see somebody like Marine Le Pen with her hands on the levers of power? This is inevitable if people like you can’t accept that large swathes of the population live and think differently to you and aren’t willing to engage in a dialogue to discuss their sometimes legitimate concerns.

Good post. I wonder also about the influence ageing and life stage has on your attitude to multicultural societies. Many people travel and live abroad when they are young, meeting people of different cultures, learning languages etc - then come back home to have their families. It's a different stage in your life. Not that you have to become unfriendly and insular but you want to bring your kids up in a friendly high trust cohesive society where you have a rough idea of where your neighbours are in terms of values and culture. You also have far, far less time for even your existing friendships what with working, running a house and bringing up kids. So while it's nice to think that you could cultivate enlightening lovely friendships with people from every corner of the earth, the bald truth of it is that you couldn't be arsed. You just don't have the time to navigate differences and build trust. It's much easier to mix with people with whom you have a lot of cultural shorthand, it's just less effort.

I have noticed that the people I know with the "Refugees Welcome" and "End Direct Provision" signs tend to live in overwhelmingly white Irish neighbourhoods and their kids will - certainly by secondary level, where the fee paying schools kick in - rarely know anyone outside that group.

Odhinn

DelaneyIn wrote: »

What do the Native Americans make of the diversity and multiculturalism in New York City?

You're conflating colonialism with immigration.

Hamachi

Nesta2018 wrote: »

Good post. I wonder also about the influence ageing and life stage has on your attitude to multicultural societies. Many people travel and live abroad when they are young, meeting people of different cultures, learning languages etc - then come back home to have their families. It's a different stage in your life. Not that you have to become unfriendly and insular but you want to bring your kids up in a friendly high trust cohesive society where you have a rough idea of where your neighbours are in terms of values and culture. You also have far, far less time for even your existing friendships what with working, running a house and bringing up kids. So while it's nice to think that you could cultivate enlightening lovely friendships with people from every corner of the earth, the bald truth of it is that you couldn't be arsed. You just don't have the time to navigate differences and build trust. It's much easier to mix with people with whom you have a lot of cultural shorthand, it's just less effort.

100% agree.

We’ve just had our first child and are pretty busy running around. The last thing on either of our minds is cultivating friendships with people, with whom we have a tenuous link at best. This is also the case for very many of my work colleagues and friends.

Your point about high trust, cohesive societies is also very pertinent. It chimes with Robert Putnam’s research that there are closer bonds and a higher rate of community engagement in less diverse settings. I guess it simply boils down to birds of a feather flocking together.

Nesta2018

Yes, I read "Bowling Alone" a few years ago. Putnam himself said his findings made him feel uncomfortable but he couldn't get away from them. Diverse societies are unfriendlier, less cohesive and just don't work as well.

Sean.3516

Tony EH wrote: »

A country is not just an economy.

I don't disagree.

Tony EH wrote: »

Who do you think did all these jobs that the Irish were so "unwilling" to do before they became staffed by cheap foreign labour? It's not like our pizza joints were devoid of staff. The local Spar wasn't completely empty of Paddy and Mary's behind the till. Petrol stations weren't closing down because the owners couldn't get someone with an Irish accent to work there. The building trade never had a dearth of youngfellas willing to do work on them as well.

Always funny when I hear of indigenous populations are "unwilling" to do certain jobs, when those jobs were always done by the same indigenous populations in the first place.

Yes, Irish people did most of these low level jobs before because Ireland was a much poorer country with a less qualified workforce that was happy to deliver pizzas for the wages being offered by the pizza companies. Over time this changed, Ireland became wealthier, our workforce became more educated to the point where there were simply not as many people willing to deliver pizzas at the wages offered.

It's ridiculous to expect that companies should overpay their employees for the sake of keeping them Irish. The cost will simply be passed onto the consumer in higher prices. We enjoy an incredibly high standard of living in this consumer economy. There will always be a cost to that. The only question is how we pay that cost. High prices or low wages? Pick one.

By the way if you really want to make it possible for any young unqualified Irish person to get a job instantly, get rid of the minimum wage. Wages kept artificially high are the number one cause of youth unemployment.

DelaneyIn

Odhinn wrote: »

You're conflating colonialism with immigration.

I’m asking for an insight into their views on multiculturalism and diversity.

Is it working out well for them?

cannotlogin

I've no issue with multiculturalism in theory, when it works well, it can be positive.

That said, I think we you decide you go live in another country, you should be committed to abiding by the rules in that country, be a contributing member of that society etc.

I can't head off to Abu Dubai or Syria and decide I want to decide I was to prance around in very little clothing. Like it or not, it's not tolerated. If you go some place, you have to integrate in the manner accepted.

The way I see it is positive contributors welcome, negative contributors unwelcome. I would have the same view with Irish people too, I think they should have to contribute positively too.

snotboogie

Nesta2018 wrote: »

Good post. I wonder also about the influence ageing and life stage has on your attitude to multicultural societies. Many people travel and live abroad when they are young, meeting people of different cultures, learning languages etc - then come back home to have their families. It's a different stage in your life. Not that you have to become unfriendly and insular but you want to bring your kids up in a friendly high trust cohesive society where you have a rough idea of where your neighbours are in terms of values and culture. You also have far, far less time for even your existing friendships what with working, running a house and bringing up kids. So while it's nice to think that you could cultivate enlightening lovely friendships with people from every corner of the earth, the bald truth of it is that you couldn't be arsed. You just don't have the time to navigate differences and build trust. It's much easier to mix with people with whom you have a lot of cultural shorthand, it's just less effort.

I have noticed that the people I know with the "Refugees Welcome" and "End Direct Provision" signs tend to live in overwhelmingly white Irish neighbourhoods and their kids will - certainly by secondary level, where the fee paying schools kick in - rarely know anyone outside that group.

That's kind of a bizarre conclusion. I can certainly understand less time to travel and higher barriers to moving abroad if one has kids but if a new guy from a different country starts in the office or moves next door, I'm not going to be less friendly to him because of a perceived difficulty building trust due to a lack of cultural shorthand. There are less opportunities to meet people of all backgrounds as you get older but if people are in a convient proximity, whether through work or something else, I haven't seen any barriers due to background. Two of the most popular guys in my office over the last few years have been from Canada and Singapore, the Singaporean is in his late 30s with a wife and kids and had no issues meeting similar people here

Tony EH

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Yes, Irish people did most of these low level jobs before because Ireland was a much poorer country with a less qualified workforce that was happy to deliver pizzas for the wages being offered by the pizza companies. Over time this changed, Ireland became wealthier, our workforce became more educated to the point where there were simply not as many people willing to deliver pizzas at the wages offered.

It's ridiculous to expect that companies should overpay their employees for the sake of keeping them Irish. The cost will simply be passed onto the consumer in higher prices. We enjoy an incredibly high standard of living in this consumer economy. There will always be a cost to that. The only question is how we pay that cost. High prices or low wages? Pick one.

By the way if you really want to make it possible for any young unqualified Irish person to get a job instantly, get rid of the minimum wage. Wages kept artificially high are the number one cause of youth unemployment.

All of the above sounds like a Libertarian wet dream.

threeball

I can't think of a single country where its worked well and hasn't led to heightened racial tensions. If you're not willing to embrace the culture of the country you're moving to, then don't go there. Building mini enclaves within cities and countries breeds distrust and hatred. Its human nature to distrust other tribes. In Ireland we can hate the parish next door, extend that with language and culture and you reach a different level. All for immigration but have the decency to respect the locals and embrace their way of life.

Odhinn

DelaneyIn wrote: »

I’m asking for an insight into their views on multiculturalism and diversity.

Is it working out well for them?

Again, you're conflating colonialism with immigration.

Sean.3516

Tony EH wrote: »

All of the above sounds like a Libertarian wet dream.

And studies have shown that libertarians have the best wet dreams.

In all seriousness, mockery is the refuge of those who have no argument.

Tony EH

Sean.3516 wrote: »

And studies have shown that libertarians have the best wet dreams.

In all seriousness, mockery is the refuge of those who have no argument.

There really isn't much sense in arguing with someone who thinks the minimum wage is a bad thing and that wages in Ireland are "kept artificially high".

Sean.3516

Tony EH wrote: »

There really isn't much sense in arguing with someone who thinks the minimum wage is a bad thing and that wages in Ireland are "kept artificially high".

But they are kept artificially high. That’s literally what a minimum wage does.

As for the minimum wage being a bad thing I’ll ask you this: What business is it of anybody’s if somebody is poor and unqualified and is being priced out of the job market because their labour is not worth a minimum wage of €12 an hour? Those are the people who are screwed by the minimum wage. Not the unionised workers (most of whom don’t work minimum wage jobs) who push for a higher minimum wage in order to protect their own jobs from being replaced by those low level workers.

Switzerland has never had a minimum wage and they’ve maintained full employment for the last 40 years even throughout the last recession.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda%C3%AD-identify-126-members-of-a-crime-gang-in-the-republic-1.4286787

So Gardai have identified 126 members of a single crime gang dotted around Ireland.

All of them are from Romania.

All of them.

Gas, isn't it?

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

All of them.

Don't think all of the Romanian thieves guild being Romanian is that shocking.

Nesta2018

snotboogie wrote: »

That's kind of a bizarre conclusion. I can certainly understand less time to travel and higher barriers to moving abroad if one has kids but if a new guy from a different country starts in the office or moves next door, I'm not going to be less friendly to him because of a perceived difficulty building trust due to a lack of cultural shorthand. There are less opportunities to meet people of all backgrounds as you get older but if people are in a convient proximity, whether through work or something else, I haven't seen any barriers due to background. Two of the most popular guys in my office over the last few years have been from Canada and Singapore, the Singaporean is in his late 30s with a wife and kids and had no issues meeting similar people here

There is not such a cultural chasm there - for a start Canada is English-speaking and it's one of the official languages of Singapore (most people are educated through English).

Bobblehats

threeball wrote: »

I can't think of a single country where its worked well and hasn't led to heightened racial tensions. If you're not willing to embrace the culture of the country you're moving to, then don't go there. Building mini enclaves within cities and countries breeds distrust and hatred. Its human nature to distrust other tribes. In Ireland we can hate the parish next door, extend that with language and culture and you reach a different level. All for immigration but have the decency to respect the locals and embrace their way of life.

We don’t have the pull to absorb in that regard. Small, niche left of field culture they are attracted to the pull of the cultural hubs either side at best.. close to integration as yer gona get the only thing really luring most of these people is the only reason they can pin us on the map; blindfolded in fact. That’s right we’re that donkey.

threeball

Bobblehats wrote: »

We don’t have the pull to absorb in that regard. Small, niche left of field culture they are attracted to the pull of the cultural hubs either side at best.. close to integration as yer gona get the only thing really luring most of these people is the only reason they can pin us on the map; blindfolded in fact. That’s right we’re that donkey.

I can't agree with you there, even in a small town like the one i live in there is an estate that is at least 90% Polish. Everyone speaks polish, everyone tries to carry on life as if they were in poland, they're not shy about telling you how sh1t ireland is and how we should be more like them. Thats replicated across many towns and many nationalities that come here. Its not right to come to a country and try to impose your will on the place. Do it in the opposite direction and you wouldnt last 5 mins.

Hamachi

threeball wrote: »

I can't agree with you there, even in a small town like the one i live in there is an estate that is at least 90% Polish. Everyone speaks polish, everyone tries to carry on life as if they were in poland, they're not shy about telling you how sh1t ireland is and how we should be more like them. Thats replicated across many towns and many nationalities that come here. Its not right to come to a country and try to impose your will on the place. Do it in the opposite direction and you wouldnt last 5 mins.

Is this genuine? I have met and worked with quite a few immigrants who have minimal interest in Ireland, but I’ve never known a scenario where there is such open hostility displayed to the local community. If this is legitimate, it’s pretty concerning.

Your scenario also ties in with one of the points I made in my previous posts; many people have no intention of bridging cross-cultural divides and are quite happy to remain ensconced within their own communities.

According to one commentator here, this is a failing of Irish people not to reach out. Of course, the point that s/he repeatedly chooses to ignore is that many people, regardless of their origins, simply prefer being around those with whom they share common values and outlooks.

This underpins the development of parallel societies all across Western Europe. If your example is genuine, it looks like Ireland is further down that track than I had believed it to be.

ELM327

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda%C3%AD-identify-126-members-of-a-crime-gang-in-the-republic-1.4286787

So Gardai have identified 126 members of a single crime gang dotted around Ireland.

All of them are from Romania.

All of them.

Gas, isn't it?

Careful now, that's racist
*SCCREEECH*

Eric Cartman

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda%C3%AD-identify-126-members-of-a-crime-gang-in-the-republic-1.4286787

So Gardai have identified 126 members of a single crime gang dotted around Ireland.

All of them are from Romania.

All of them.

Gas, isn't it?

well Roma gypsies. Romanians themselves are fine people and have a lot of issues with people lumping them in with the gypsies.

I decided to go to the twitter page of the body that extended their reach to dealing with issues relating to Roma gypsy rights to see if there was information or hopefully condemnation of this, but no.... they're just busy re-tweeting sexist tweets from the NWCI about how women are the primary victims of the entire covid crisis. Not a peep about this.

wildeside

The fundamental problem here is it's a complex issue and we don't get to have a national debate on it, we're left to slug it out on internet forums.

And no matter how progressive your society is if demographic change is large and relatively quick the rise of the right is inevitable

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-9477.12147

So we'll continue to bury our heads in the sand, too terrified to have an adult conversation for fear of being called a racist or xenophobe.

You know maybe the Brexit-eers were pushing back against large societal transformations like this?

https://youtu.be/vn-TeN05qlg

Is this the end goal of multiculturalism? Is this wha our leaders want? Is this what people want? Is this kind of transformation a good thing or a bad thing for a society? What can we learn from this experiment? These are serious questions with serious consequences.

You know when I go to my doctor I hope his/her reasoning is evidence-based. If multiculturalism is intended to address a societal ill (or maybe not even an 'ill' but to perhaps just to strengthen a society) then it should also be evidence-based. The problem is some of the evidence is inconvenient and not very politically correct.

Eric Cartman

wildeside wrote: »

The fundamental problem here is it's a complex issue and we don't get to have a national debate on it, we're left to slug it out on internet forums.

And no matter how progressive your society is if demographic change is large and relatively quick the rise of the right is inevitable

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-9477.12147

So we'll continue to bury our heads in the sand, too terrified to have an adult conversation for fear of being called a racist or xenophobe.

You know maybe the Brexit-eers were pushing back against large societal transformations like this?

https://youtu.be/vn-TeN05qlg

Is this the end goal of multiculturalism? Is this wha our leaders want? Is this what people want? Is this kind of transformation a good thing or a bad thing for a society? What can we learn from this experiment? These are serious questions with serious consequences.

You know when I go to my doctor I hope his/her reasoning is evidence-based. If multiculturalism is intended to address a societal ill (or maybe not even an 'ill' but to perhaps just to strengthen a society) then it should also be evidence-based. The problem is some of the evidence is inconvenient and not very politically correct.

I love documentaries like that, even the into re-enforces the agenda

right : I'm not sure about all these people coming from another culture
left : ohh come on, they have nice food and lovely festivals
right : yeah but theres inbreeding, trafficking of women and grooming gangs
left : FOOD AND FESTIVALS
right : but how can a new culture assimilate and integrate to our own in that dense proximity to each other and with the self segregation
left : FOOD AND FESTIVALS BIGOT !