What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Wibbs

Tired Gardener wrote: »

So you have no issue with migrants who are here legally?

Yet you object to these 17,000 people going from undocumented migrants, to legal migrants.

Eh. You really haven't thought this through have you? Legal migrants are here legally because they are taking up existing employment, or are on temporary visas, or EU citizens. Illegal migrants by definition are not. If they have required skills they could have come here legally. If they were EU citizens they could come here legally. We're not talking about computer engineers here. In the vast majority of cases they are underqualified for the legal employment market. They are two very different groups.

Yes, Ireland does have a homelessness issue... that is a government problem, not building enough affordable housing. Migrants are people fleeing hardship, etc. It is possible to care about both of these things, as one doesn't impact on the other as they have different root causes.

Again along with exoticism and food we have the charity aspect(no doubt the Irish were immigrants too will be along in due course). So we agree Ireland has a homelessness issue? OK, how does adding more people, overwhelmingly lower employment grade and lower paid people help that? They are directly competing for low income housing with native Irish people. Never mind when they become legal they'll be due the "entitlement" of subsidised housing again competing with the locals for same and as a recent thread concerning a migrant who got a very nice subsidised apartment in leafy suburbia after coming back from Canada in the last two years, it seems some jump the queue(and he was bitching about Irish racism because he wasn't allowed use the complex's gym) .

ELM327 wrote: »

Thankfully there would need to be a referendum on that. One I would hope won't pass.

Afraid not. The original bill had a legal get out clause so the muppets calling for this can push it through without going back to the polls.

biko

ELM327 wrote: »

Thankfully there would need to be a referendum on that. One I would hope won't pass.

Thread on it here Labour want to bring back auto-birthright citizenship

Yellow_Fern

Wibbs wrote: »

Afraid not. The original bill had a legal get out clause so the muppets calling for this can push it through without going back to the polls.

Exactly. The Labour press release said they can avoid a referendum.

Wibbs

They want to avoid a referendum. They know hang well the result is one they wouldn't like.

ElJeffe

Marcos wrote: »

I disagree with this last part, the people behind this are not idiots. they know exactly what they're doing.

Very true. It's part of FG's manifesto to drastically increase the population of the country. With Brexit happening and tighter border controls in the UK this will be a catastrophe for us.

It's worth remembering that this doesn't stop with 17k people. They will have partners, possibly children, and other dependents remaining in their home countries, and when they become accepted, there will be pressure to allow all these dependents to have access to Ireland too.

mrslancaster

Deleted User wrote: »

We should be doing both. Tighter controls, and deporting all that are here illegally.

If it's difficult under the current system, then the system needs to be improved whereby such numbers can be deported easily. Allowing them to stay is dangerous, because it weakens the policies to prevent further illegals from entering, and staying.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/brexit-shipping-lines-will-set-up-new-routes-to-europe-to-meet-demand-says-state-agency-1.4404783

It will be interesting to see what might happen after January when the UK finally leave the EU and trade carriers are using the new routes from EU.

Kivaro

There is a lot of mentioning of this 17,000 number. The reality is that Irish authorities have no clue of the actual number, and I would expect the number to be between 35,000 to 50,000 by the time all of undocumented migrants in Ireland obtain legal status under this scheme.

Noticed a report today that among EU nationals granted Irish citizenship through naturalisation, one of the top three nationalities since 2005 is Romania. And topping the most common nationalities among non-EU nationals acquiring Irish citizenship through naturalisation since 2005 is Nigeria. Would really like to see the stats on welfare dependency and/or employment figures with these two groups.

Ireland should really focus on quality and not quantity when it comes to economic migrants.

titan18

Great another few thousand people who'll be able to get a house before me as the government load up on my taxes citing covid.

I wish there was a proper alternative I could vote for who'd actually give a **** about the working/middle class people.

dominatinMC

Find it very telling that even Reddit (which is generally considered to be much more left-leaning than Boards) appears to be strongly against this scheme. The sentiment on there is broadly similar to here, and must be representative of the general population. The questions being raised aren't borne out of "racism" or "bigotry" or whatever term the virtue signallers will assign to opponents, but are borne out of genuine, legitimate concerns for the future of our state. I will be making my feelings felt very clearly to my local representative, and whoever calls to my door when the next election rolls around. That is the only way the powers at be will listen - if there is enough disgruntlement in their voter base.

At the moment, this is scheme is still only being considered. I can only hope that voices of reason won't be drowned out by the NGOs who have a vested interest in this topic, and that the scheme doesn't come to pass. However, I won't hold my breath.

Well, I'd love a few questions answered.

1. Will there be a distinction made between those who entered Ireland on valid visas, but stayed after they expired, versus those who entered illegally.
2. Have we accurate background and criminal checks performed on those who entered illegally, and can we be sure that those migrants who are undocumented haven't been engaged in criminal acts while here? (ie. human trafficking, drugs, etc)
3. Do we know the levels of education & skills represented within the group of migrants, and is there likely to be full-time employment for them, which will completely pay for their lifestyles here without the need for government supplements? (with the coming recession, kept firmly in our minds. Low skilled work is often the first range of jobs that disappear during recessions)
4. Will these migrants provide for their own accommodation? Or is the State currently providing accommodation for any of these undocumented migrants?
5. Will this initiative only extend to those in Ireland now, and not automatically mean the inclusion of family members, or dependents, currently living outside of Ireland?
6. Will their taxes be backdated to their entry into the State with them liable to pay for what has been avoided?

Come on. Let's get a nice little list of questions to be answered.

Didn't we cede the power to do this to the EU with the Lisbon Treaty?

TFEU Article 79

Article 79

(ex Article 63, points 3 and 4, TEC)

1. The Union shall develop a common immigration policy aimed at ensuring, at all stages, the efficient management of migration flows, fair treatment of third-country nationals residing legally in Member States, and the prevention of, and enhanced measures to combat, illegal immigration and trafficking in human beings.

2. For the purposes of paragraph 1, the European Parliament and the Council, acting in accordance with the ordinary legislative procedure, shall adopt measures in the following areas:

(a)


the conditions of entry and residence, and standards on the issue by Member States of long-term visas and residence permits, including those for the purpose of family reunification;

(b)


the definition of the rights of third-country nationals residing legally in a Member State, including the conditions governing freedom of movement and of residence in other Member States;

(c)


illegal immigration and unauthorised residence, including removal and repatriation of persons residing without authorisation;

(d)


combating trafficking in persons, in particular women and children.

3. The Union may conclude agreements with third countries for the readmission to their countries of origin or provenance of third-country nationals who do not or who no longer fulfil the conditions for entry, presence or residence in the territory of one of the Member States.

4. The European Parliament and the Council, acting in accordance with the ordinary legislative procedure, may establish measures to provide incentives and support for the action of Member States with a view to promoting the integration of third-country nationals residing legally in their territories, excluding any harmonisation of the laws and regulations of the Member States.

5. This Article shall not affect the right of Member States to determine volumes of admission of third-country nationals coming from third countries to their territory in order to seek work, whether employed or self-employed.


I would take that to mean that legally we can't naturalise tens of thousands of people who are here illegally. I assume the EU doesn't care if we do a few here or there for humanitarian reasons but I would speculate that the amount of granting status that is being talked about would be contrary to EU law, happy to be corrected if someone else knows more about how this would work legally.

Kivaro

Deleted User wrote: »

I would take that to mean that legally we can't naturalise tens of thousands of people who are here illegally. I assume the EU doesn't care if we do a few here or there for humanitarian reasons but I would speculate that the amount of granting status that is being talked about would be contrary to EU law, happy to be corrected if someone else knows more about how this would work legally.

It was either Helen McEntee or someone from her team boasting today that Ireland would be unique in the EU to legalise tens of thousands of migrants in such a manner. What is with these "progressive" people in government constantly trying to make us "unique" in the EU/World? They must be suffering from some sort of serious inferiority complex.

As someone mentioned previously, it is weird that many of us are now looking to the EU in order to stop our elected representatives from causing the country irreparable damage. Another example is the replacement of Direct Provision with the supply of houses and apartments to those who fly into Dublin and proclaim the new magic word ("asylum") that provides them with everything within 3 months, while the local population who are struggling to survive are once again treated as 2nd class citizens. It is inevitable that Irish people will be skipped over in order to provide housing, social welfare, healthcare, and education to those who arrive under these types of schemes.

Ireland is becoming one weird country.

The_Kew_Tour

Does anyone know what the benefit of this is?

Were we not told before that we have to listen to what EU want us do? Now we are giving them the Fingers.

I’m lost.

Sand

Kivaro wrote: »

Ireland should really focus on quality and not quantity when it comes to economic migrants.

Quantity is what matters. Quantity defines mass migration, and in turn creates ethnic enclaves with the ethnic strife that brings.

Sand

Sand wrote: »

Quantity is what matters. Quantity defines mass migration, and in turn creates ethnic enclaves with the ethnic strife that brings.

In turn, divides people into clear and strong identity groups along racial, ethnic or political lines. Which, makes the population easier to distract, or manipulate because nobody can agree on anything and therefore be unable to resist political power/decisions.

I reckon they're looking to follow the US in this. Our governments tried bringing in the PC/Woke/Diversity rubbish, and people are starting to resist it, and by extension, them. They will likely push for a united Ireland too since that increases the mess in authority, and will generate strife, therefore nobody will be looking too closely at what they're doing. Just different politicians nitpicking over non-important issues, while the more important things get pushed into the background.

Yup. I think we'll be seeing a lot more of this to bring us closer to the anarchy that the US currently is..

Sand

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

How does it qualify as the largest when Alan Shatter (yeah, I know) granted citizenship to 69,000 long-term asylum tourists in a scheme that ran from 2011 to 2014? Maybe they'd like us to forget that.

When people look back and wonder how it happened surely Alan Shatter will have to identified as the turning point. If I recall correctly, hes on record as saying his great regret from public office wasn't getting more migrants. Adding a city the size of Galway wasn't enough.

Wibbs

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Does anyone know what the benefit of this is?

Were we not told before that we have to listen to what EU want us do? Now we are giving them the Fingers.

I’m lost.

I'm at a loss too Kew. Never mind the obvious negatives of so called "multiculturalism" as a politic. We're in the middle of a world pandemic that will have economic ramifications to a degree we've no idea about, we've go a large chunk of our population on emergency grants, another chunk working from home, industries like hospitality that may never recover to previous levels, we've got Brexit coming up and that's not exactly going tickety boo and will also have economic ramifications to a degree we've no idea about, we've got a direct provision set up that's not fit for purpose and has cost us hundreds of millions, a larger proportion of non EU migrants are on social welfare and we're in the middle of a housing and homelessness crisis. That's a fair old list.

And yet our elected representatives are firing up initiatives that will fundamentally change the demographics of Ireland and the Irish people without a clear mandate from the Irish voter. The only time the Irish voter was asked they returned a big fat no. A no that another bunch are hellbent on reversing. I'm beyond lost Kew. I'm angry.

ExMachina1000

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm at a loss too Kew. Never mind the obvious negatives of so called "multiculturalism" as a politic. We're in the middle of a world pandemic that will have economic ramifications to a degree we've no idea about, we've go a large chunk of our population on emergency grants, another chunk working from home, industries like hospitality that may never recover to previous levels, we've got Brexit coming up and that's not exactly going tickety boo and will also have economic ramifications to a degree we've no idea about, we've got a direct provision set up that's not fit for purpose and has cost us hundreds of millions, a larger proportion of non EU migrants are on social welfare and we're in the middle of a housing and homelessness crisis. That's a fair old list.

And yet our elected representatives are firing up initiatives that will fundamentally change the demographics of Ireland and the Irish people without a clear mandate from the Irish voter. The only time the Irish voter was asked they returned a big fat no. A no that another bunch are hellbent on reversing. I'm beyond lost Kew. I'm angry.

At this stage I would have expected at least a few posters who are in favour of this new overall "strategy " of immigration to have found this thread and made their arguments heard. It hasn't really happened. Another poster said he has seen a majority rejection of these proposals and direction on reddit Ireland also.

Nobody or at least a tiny unheard minority seems to be in favour of it. There are zero benefits to Irish people . Economically or culturally.

Yet here we are.

ExMachina1000

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Nobody or at least a tiny unheard minority seems to be in favour of it. There are zero benefits to Irish people . Economically or culturally.

Yet here we are.

Yes, we are.. but to be honest, I'm not terribly surprised. The Banking crash and subsequent scandals have taught me that our political elite don't really care what the population thinks, because beyond the ""risk" of losing in an election, nothing happens.

I can remember the shock, outrage, and pure anger that was there when we heard about the governments ineptitude. Oh, sure, the elected politicians were a big part of it, but our non-elected government organs were up to the hilt in corruption, and negligence. Who saw jail time? In spite of the monies that the taxpayer, and pensioners lost, nobody was punished beyond a slap on the wrist. Instead, we saw expensive tribunals that showed some responsibility, but had no power to punish.. and that's come up, time and time again. No accountability for our politicians, or public servants.

Oh, they might lose an election... but peoples minds are scattered these days. Probably the effect of information overload from TV and social media.. because I could have sworn we would see FF broken up and people would never vote for them again.. Err.. yeah.

We are here because the electorate are essentially paralyzed. The only way to deal with the politics is to enter politics but that's a stacked deck, and TBF, I can't imagine too many people want to enter that cesspit. I know I wouldn't, although I have been tempted a few times.

We are here because the politicians are essentially untouchable. Until that changes, we won't see a government for the Irish people. We'll simply see an extension of politicians playing a game with our lives. It's one of the main reasons why I live in China. I refuse to place my life in the hands of Irish politicians again.. and it says a lot, that I prefer the Chinese government to deal with me, a foreigner, more fairly than Irish politicians, who should be there for me.. but aren't.

Oh.. and economically, I could see benefits to Ireland by taking in all these people... IF we were to see massive investment into our economic infrastructure, with the focus of growing our own manufacturing industry, or regaining our farming presence.

But I've seen zero sign of this (I'm on mailing lists ). The governments money is still firmly focused on providing employees for the multinationals, and Enterprise Ireland regions haven't received any major increases in funding to encourage small/medium business creation throughout Ireland.

So.. where are all these people going to work? oh, sure, some of them are educated. Likely many of them are the Brazilian language students, or other students who stayed past their visa periods, but.. I don't really think they're equipped to work in the major industries in Ireland, without some extra qualifications to add to the pile. It's worth comparing such student qualifications with those Irish people who (many of whom) have been trained towards those positions that are available.

I dunno. I don't see any initiatives to create new businesses beyond what's already there. We're going to see a rake of businesses close from the recession, which means Irish people out of work, and looking for replacement jobs... so where are all the jobs that these migrants will do? I just don't see them. The only other alternative is welfare..

Hamachi

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We are here because the politicians are essentially untouchable. Until that changes, we won't see a government for the Irish people. We'll simply see an extension of politicians playing a game with our lives. It's one of the main reasons why I live in China. I refuse to place my life in the hands of Irish politicians again.. and it says a lot, that I prefer the Chinese government to deal with me, a foreigner, more fairly than Irish politicians, who should be there for me.. but aren't.

This point really resonated with me. This country is being undermined by a treacherous political class who not only do not have the best interests of the Irish people at heart, but are actively conspiring against the indigenous population.

Multiculturalism is a nightmarish policy to pursue, precisely because it is so irrevocable. The country will just disappear further down that rabbit hole. What is even more worrying is that those with their hands on the levers of power are insistent on traveling this path, despite all the data points flagging bright red that this is an inherently flawed decision. In particular, I’m looking at you Simon Coveney, a disciple of the late Peter Sutherland, whose ambition was to destroy the homogeneity of European countries.

I consider myself pretty moderate on most social issues. However, I would vote for a substantially right-leaning politician if s/he made an earnest attempt to shore up our appalling immigration system. I never thought I would vote this way, but I’m so incredibly frustrated by the status quo. My hope is that somebody enters political life soon who can give voice to the large swathes of the Irish people who are effectively disenfranchised by the current shower of treacherous swines.

Mules

To me it seems like many of those in favour of mass immigration believe in it out of ideology. There doesn't seem to be much logic behind it.


What puzzles me is that having seen the trouble it's caused in Europe, the Irish government is still going full stream ahead with the immigration.

If they want to increase the population I don't understand why they don't do it sensibly. They could bring people with skills in who will add to the country. Instead they seem to want to encourage anyone who can make it here to come, irrespective of suitability.

I have family living in Sweden and when their government opened the borders in 2015 the result was not good. They got many people who hadn't gone past a primary school education and consequently couldn't get jobs. Many were from lawless countries and they couldn't fit in to Swedish society. They are almost all on social welfare and some became resentful and turned to crime.

Geuze

Tired Gardener wrote: »

Migrants are people fleeing hardship, etc. It is possible to care about both of these things, as one doesn't impact on the other as they have different root causes.

It is well established that the vast majority of AS are bogus - they are not fleeing persecution.

They may live in hardship, yes, but hardship is not a basis for claiming asylum.

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh.. and economically, I could see benefits to Ireland by taking in all these people... IF we were to see massive investment into our economic infrastructure, with the focus of growing our own manufacturing industry, or regaining our farming presence.

There are 16m unemployed people in the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/10662309/3-02122020-AP-EN.pdf/3b4ec2e2-f14c-2652-80bd-2f5e7c0605c2

There is no need for any non-EU immigration.

None.

goose2005

Mules wrote: »

To me it seems like many of those in favour of mass immigration believe in it out of ideology. There doesn't seem to be much logic behind it.

of course not. If you had a million euro to spend on improving the lives of people in developing nations, it would go so much further if it was spent over there, than if it was spent in ireland on housing, healthcare, training, dole etc. for one person.

The current cause celebre is one Benjamin Akhile, who came here from Sierra Leone in 2006 claiming to have been persecuted as a journalist, and is now to be deported. As far as I can see he hasn't worked in all that time, instead doing a few courses. Total cost of housing, healthcare, training, dole etc. in all that time must be six or seven figures, enough to build a school in Sierra Leone.

Per this article, one journalist has been killed in SL in the last 15 years, which is the same as Ireland. https://ipi.media/journalist-killed-in-sierra-leone/

Gervais08

At the end of the second part of the programme about the Famine tonight, RTE just couldn’t help themselves with their agenda - right after talk of the coffin ships comes film of dozens of fit healthy young men in dinghies who paid thousands to people traffickers.

They even got a commentator to talk of open borders being necessary.

Was nauseating to see.

Gervais08

Gervais08 wrote: »

At the end of the second part of the programme about the Famine tonight, RTE just couldn’t help themselves with their agenda - right after talk of the coffin ships comes film of dozens of fit healthy young men in dinghies who paid thousands to people traffickers.

They even got a commentator to talk of open borders being necessary.

Was nauseating to see.

I thought the show was brilliant up to that point. Then they just had to throw in a bit of open borders politicking. You can only imagine what the Irish getting off on Ellis island looked like back then, penniless, gaunt, sick, heartbroken. Compared to the healthy looking groups of well fed young men in the latest sportswear jumping off boats in the Med with their fists in the air.

ILoveYourVibes

Geuze wrote: »

There are 16m unemployed people in the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/10662309/3-02122020-AP-EN.pdf/3b4ec2e2-f14c-2652-80bd-2f5e7c0605c2

There is no need for any non-EU immigration.

None.

There is for the people who immigrate INTO The eu.

Scoondal

Well, Hungary is the most laughed at country this week.
Hungary should leave EU along with UK. Let's clear the decks and move forward without these countries objecting to everything.
Bye bye Hungary.