What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

biko

bubblypop wrote: »

No, I never said I was for automatic citizenship.

I'm really not sure what posters here actually want.
No automatic citizenship, but you're only really Irish if you're born on the island.
People born here to foreign parents are their parents nationality but people born to Irish parents overseas are not really irish?

Ok, you should go to the other thread for clarity and stop derailing this one but in short - as long as one parent is Irish the child gets Irish citizenship.

If both parents are Polish (without Irish citizenship) the child does not automatically get Irish citizenship even if he or she is born here.

If you are not for jus soli then you agree with me and the vast majority of the Irish population and all of Europe that jus sanguinis is best.

biko

biko wrote: »

Ok, you should go to the other thread for clarity and stop derailing this one but in short - as long as one parent is Irish the child gets Irish citizenship.

If both parents are Polish (without Irish citizenship) the child does not automatically get Irish citizenship even if he or she is born here.

If you are not for jus soli then you agree with me and the vast majority of the Irish population and all of Europe that jus sanguinis is best.

Oh I understand how it works, but it seems posters here don't seem to know what they want!

Yep, I don't believe in automatic birthright citizenship that's correct.

Acosta

kildare lad wrote: »

And how does this benefit Ireland or any other EU city ? Id love to see all those lgbt , gender confused lefties walk by them holding hands . They wouldn't be long getting ran out of it

Those pics don't look any worse than the Eucharistic Processions I had to go on when I was an alter boy.
The Irish people have had more than enough of religion interfering with how they live their lives and their choices. And we still have some way to go dealing with the damage religion being an overbearing presence in society has done. Religion, whatever the faith will never have that kind of power again in Ireland.

TomTomTim

Acosta wrote: »

Those pics don't look any worse than the Eucharistic Processions I had to go on when I was an alter boy.
The Irish people have had more than enough of religion interfering with how they live their lives and their choices. And we still have some way to go dealing with the damage religion being an overbearing presence in society has done. Religion, whatever the faith will never have that kind of power again in Ireland.

Are you a foreseer or something? The Islamic population is ever growing in the west, yet you see no relationship with your statement and that fact? When Islamic groups eventually gain more political power, do you think that it's secularism they'll be fighting for or against?

biko

Acosta wrote: »

Religion, whatever the faith will never have that kind of power again in Ireland.

We won't know until it's too late.
In Iran 1979 it happened pretty much overnight.

If we look at from which countries people come to Ireland and we look at those countries' views of religion it's both good and bad depending on country.

If you meet people from a country/culture where apostasy means death they probably have a different view than you.
Ask your foreign friends today about their views on apostacy, LGBT and women's rights.

Kraftwerk

Acosta wrote: »

Those pics don't look any worse than the Eucharistic Processions I had to go on when I was an alter boy.
The Irish people have had more than enough of religion interfering with how they live their lives and their choices. And we still have some way to go dealing with the damage religion being an overbearing presence in society has done. Religion, whatever the faith will never have that kind of power again in Ireland.

Religion still has a lot of control and influence. Something like 90% of schools are under the control of the Catholic Church.

Acosta

Acosta wrote: »

Those pics don't look any worse than the Eucharistic Processions I had to go on when I was an alter boy.
The Irish people have had more than enough of religion interfering with how they live their lives and their choices. And we still have some way to go dealing with the damage religion being an overbearing presence in society has done. Religion, whatever the faith will never have that kind of power again in Ireland.

The problem isn't as to what Irish people believe, but when a sizable percentage of our migrant population (or new Irish) believe in it (Islam, for example), it won't matter what Irish people themselves believe.

It will still have a knockon effect because religious rights are protected, but also because they won't (necessarily) accept Irish cultural norms as being acceptable forms of behavior, leading to violence/abuse.

Acosta

Kraftwerk wrote: »

Religion still has a lot of control and influence. Something like 90% of schools are under the control of the Catholic Church.

I'm well aware of that. As I said we still have some way to go.


As for Islam. It has the second biggest following in the world so far as religion goes. And for the vast majority of them, like any other religion, they practice their faith for their own private reasons and have little or no desire to push their beliefs on others.

kildare lad

Kraftwerk wrote: »

Religion still has a lot of control and influence. Something like 90% of schools are under the control of the Catholic Church.

The church has nowhere near the power or control it has here compared to 20 or 30 years ago . My son and all his friends go to the local Catholic school . He doesn't go to mass, either do his friends or their parents . I don't know one person who is my age who goes to mass . They even stopped doing evening mass due to lack of people going to it. The local priest a few years ago was from Africa . That's shows you how few people are joining the priesthood. Them days of the church being able to influence politicians and society are long dead here and rightly so.

statesaver

Kraftwerk wrote: »

Religion still has a lot of control and influence. Something like 90% of schools are under the control of the Catholic Church.

People who went through Catholic education overwhelmingly voted for SSM and abortions. Hardly under control now are they.

Yellow_Fern

Acosta wrote: »

I'm well aware of that. As I said we still have some way to go.


As for Islam. It has the second biggest following in the world so far as religion goes. And for the vast majority of them, like any other religion, they practice their faith for their own private reasons and have little or no desire to push their beliefs on others.

This is certainly true but it is a red herring argument. Look at France. The vast majority of French muslims are tolerant and western culture-oriented and I am sure most strongly embrace the French constitutional principle of secularism Laïcité. But there is still 100,000-800,000 who think sucide bombing is sometimes right. that is a problem.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2006/06/22/the-great-divide-how-westerners-and-muslims-view-each-other/

Kraftwerk

statesaver wrote: »

People who went through Catholic education overwhelmingly voted for SSM and abortions. Hardly under control now are they.

I never said voters were under control I said the schools were. Which they are. Why are you lying about what I said?

As the other poster said there's still a lot of work to do to get out from under the influence of the Catholic Church. Personally I think there's a long way to go. But there's no need to quote partial sentences to lie about what people are saying. That's just rather dumb now isn't it?

Acosta

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

This is certainly true but it is a red herring argument. Look at France. The vast majority of French muslims are tolerant and western culture-oriented and I am sure most strongly embrace the French constitutional principle of secularism Laïcité. But there is still 100,000-800,000 who think sucide bombing is sometimes right. that is a problem.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2006/06/22/the-great-divide-how-westerners-and-muslims-view-each-other/

Not excusing people who decide to go out and blow someone up. These people are sick. However France is different from most other countries with it's colonial past. And these people out in the suburbs in places like Paris have been treated like dirt by the authorities for years.

statesaver

Kraftwerk wrote: »

I never said voters were under control I said the schools were. Which they are. Why are you lying about what I said?

As the other poster said there's still a lot of work to do to get out from under the influence of the Catholic Church. Personally I think there's a long way to go. But there's no need to quote partial sentences to lie about what people are saying. That's just rather dumb now isn't it?

I was replying to your post.

Pupils become voters and they voted for divorce, SSM and abortion. The RCC have fcuk all control of children these days.

I would image most teachers in RCC schools these days are atheist as well as their parents.

Kraftwerk

statesaver wrote: »

I was replying to your post.

Pupils become voters and they voted for divorce, SSM and abortion. The RCC have fcuk all control of children these days.

Where did I say they control voters? I said they control 90% of the schools. Which they do. 90% of schools are operated by the Church.

Can you quote where I said the majority of voters are under the control of the RCC? You can't. Because you made it up.

jmreire

Acosta wrote: »

I'm well aware of that. As I said we still have some way to go.


As for Islam. It has the second biggest following in the world so far as religion goes. And for the vast majority of them, like any other religion, they practice their faith for their own private reasons and have little or no desire to push their beliefs on others.

For a person born in an Islamic Country, privacy does not come into it. The religion will control each and every part of his life. For 1400 years now, Muslims have followed the teachings of Mohammad, and one of these is to convert the whole world to Islam. And throughout history, they have done this either peacefully or militarily. And its ongoing to the present day, so when their nrs increase in a Country , like Ireland say, then they will push more and more for Islam to be incorporated into Irish Society. Meaning that Irish Society will be expected to change to accommodate Islam.
From an article in the Irish Times back in 2014 : Quote
Dr Selim, also of the Islamic Cultural Centre, and a lecturer in Trinity College and the Mater Dei Institute in Dublin, called for “a revolution of inclusivity” in Irish schools and “an upheaval in Irish educational perspectives” to accommodate the needs of a society which is now “home to a variety of Christian denominations, as well as people of other faiths and of none”.
He noted that “Muslim festivals are neither celebrated or marked in the calendar in Irish schools”. He called for separate same-sex PE facilities for Muslim girls and criticised RSE programmes in schools, as well as music and drama classes, where there could be “a clash of values” with Islam.
UnQuote.
This is the thin end of the wedge, as their Nrs increase, so will the demands. Islam does not change ( because it cannot change), but expects other cultures to change to suit Islam. And now in Europe, we are starting to see this in action,,the clash of Cultures, and its not a pretty sight,

statesaver

Kraftwerk wrote: »

Where did I say they control voters? I said they control 90% of the schools. Which they do. 90% of schools are operated by the Church.

Can you quote where I said the majority of voters are under the control of the RCC? You can't. Because you made it up.

Ok, get you now.

Maybe use ethos instead of control.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

For a person born in an Islamic Country, privacy does not come into it. The religion will control each and every part of his life. For 1400 years now, Muslims have followed the teachings of Mohammad, and one of these is to convert the whole world to Islam. And throughout history, they have done this either peacefully or militarily. And its ongoing to the present day, so when their nrs increase in a Country , like Ireland say, then they will push more and more for Islam to be incorporated into Irish Society. Meaning that Irish Society will be expected to change to accommodate Islam.
From an article in the Irish Times back in 2014 : Quote
Dr Selim, also of the Islamic Cultural Centre, and a lecturer in Trinity College and the Mater Dei Institute in Dublin, called for “a revolution of inclusivity” in Irish schools and “an upheaval in Irish educational perspectives” to accommodate the needs of a society which is now “home to a variety of Christian denominations, as well as people of other faiths and of none”.
He noted that “Muslim festivals are neither celebrated or marked in the calendar in Irish schools”. He called for separate same-sex PE facilities for Muslim girls and criticised RSE programmes in schools, as well as music and drama classes, where there could be “a clash of values” with Islam.
UnQuote.
This is the thin end of the wedge, as their Nrs increase, so will the demands. Islam does not change ( because it cannot change), but expects other cultures to change to suit Islam. And now in Europe, we are starting to see this in action,,the clash of Cultures, and its not a pretty sight,

And yet there are countries in the world with Muslim majorities, that are not ruled by islam.
So, not much chance of Islam taking over in ireland.

Kraftwerk

statesaver wrote: »

Ok, get you know.

Maybe use ethos instead of control.

Why? The schools are owned and administrated by the church. Under control is the correct description.

jmreire

bubblypop wrote: »

And yet there are countries in the world with Muslim majorities, that are not ruled by islam.
So, not much chance of Islam taking over in ireland.

You might like to name them?

Always the extreme end of an idea.

Islam doesn't need to take over Ireland. It doesn't even need a majority population to make it presence felt. If we had a couple hundred K Muslims, there would be plenty of grounds for conflict, considering the way Islam is evolving around Europe and the M.East.

Think of the effect of 20k Muslims in a town like Athlone or any of the other towns in Ireland.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

You might like to name them?

Off the top of my head, indonesia, Kosovo, Albania.

Yellow_Fern

bubblypop wrote: »

Off the top of my head, indonesia, Kosovo, Albania.

I am not sure about Kosovo and Albania but Indonesia forbids inter religion marriage, marriage licences are often needed for couples booking rooms, churches are bombed regularly and worse of all, the mayor of their capital city, a christian was imprisoned under blasphemy law for saying his muslims critics misinterpreted the Koran. https://www.economist.com/asia/2016/12/20/the-persecution-of-a-christian-mayor-in-indonesia

CtevenSrowder

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I am not sure about Kosovo and Albania but Indonesia forbids inter religion marriage, marriage licences are often needed for couples booking rooms, churches are bombed regularly and worse of all, the mayor of their capital city, a christian was imprisoned under blasphemy law for saying his muslims critics misinterpreted the Koran. https://www.economist.com/asia/2016/12/20/the-persecution-of-a-christian-mayor-in-indonesia

There is also a region that fully operates under Sharia Law.

Frankie Machine

Kraftwerk wrote: »

Where did I say they control voters? I said they control 90% of the schools. Which they do. 90% of schools are operated by the Church.

Can you quote where I said the majority of voters are under the control of the RCC? You can't. Because you made it up.

I think the issue is that your point wasn't worth raising in the first place, such is the social ineffectuality of the 'control' you were referring to.

Kraftwerk

Frankie Machine wrote: »

I think the issue is that your point wasn't worth raising in the first place, such is the meaninglessness of the 'control' you were referring to.

I think the issue is people on here are so eager to argue that they can't even comprehend basic English. That poster basically invented a point to disagree with and everyone is thanking him. Then he asks me to use the wrong word that will suit his misunderstanding. Now we have you telling me my point wasn't even worth raising.

As I said. Some people just want to argue. If there's nothing they disagree with they'll invent something.

Kraftwerk

Kraftwerk wrote: »

I think the issue is people on here are so eager to argue that they can't even comprehend basic English. .

Kraftwerk wrote:

Religion still has a lot of control and influence. Something like 90% of schools are under the control of the Catholic Church.

I had a catholic upbringing. Catholic primary and secondary schools. Attended a seminary (Jesuits) too during a number of summers. Church choir. etc. Quite a religious family, with priests/nuns throughout on both sides.

And it didn't matter because the effect of Church control was disappearing by the time I entered schooling. The stories of my parents about the power of the parish priest were like fantasy stories in comparison to when I grew up (70s). Neither the schools, nor the priests in my community had much sway with what people believed outside of Mass and holy days.

The other post was "liked" by me because it was true. The Church owning 90% of schools doesn't matter one iota because the indoctrination of people was 'mostly' a thing of the past. People voted for SSM and Abortions, even though they had attended Catholic schooling.

Oh... and my understanding of English is pretty damn good. Perhaps you should consider the logic of what you want to write before writing it.

Frankie Machine

Kraftwerk wrote: »

I think the issue is people on here are so eager to argue that they can't even comprehend basic English. That poster basically invented a point to disagree with and everyone is thanking him. Then he asks me to use the wrong word that will suit his misunderstanding. Now we have you telling me my point wasn't even worth raising.

As I said. Some people just want to argue. If there's nothing they disagree with they'll invent something.

We can all read for ourselves what was said.

You quoted another person who posted as follows -

Those pics don't look any worse than the Eucharistic Processions I had to go on when I was an alter boy.
The Irish people have had more than enough of religion interfering with how they live their lives and their choices. And we still have some way to go dealing with the damage religion being an overbearing presence in society has done. Religion, whatever the faith will never have that kind of power again in Ireland.

There's a very clear picture being painted of the difference between past and present in those words there.

So when you retort with a contrary view that

Religion still has a lot of control and influence. Something like 90% of schools are under the control of the Catholic Church.

... it's perfectly valid for others to assume that you are challenging that picture.

That's why more than one of us did so.

You created the context within which to read your words, by including the quote in the first place.

It's out of order accusing people of lying just because you failed to express yourself as you wished.

In the context of the words you quoted, and other observations about referenda etc, your point about schools is not really impactful.

Frankie Machine

Deleted User wrote: »

I had a catholic upbringing. Catholic primary and secondary schools. Attended a seminary (Jesuits) too during a number of summers. Church choir. etc. Quite a religious family, with priests/nuns throughout on both sides.

And it didn't matter because the effect of Church control was disappearing by the time I entered schooling. The stories of my parents about the power of the parish priest were like fantasy stories in comparison to when I grew up (70s). Neither the schools, nor the priests in my community had much sway with what people believed outside of Mass and holy days.

The other post was "liked" by me because it was true. The Church owning 90% of schools doesn't matter one iota because the indoctrination of people was 'mostly' a thing of the past. People voted for SSM and Abortions, even though they had attended Catholic schooling.

Oh... and my understanding of English is pretty damn good. Perhaps you should consider the logic of what you want to write before writing it.

There is a view, and I can't remember where I heard/read it, that the papal visit in '79 was precisely an attempt to nudge the Irish back onto the straight and narrow of traditional Catholic teaching from which we were by then starting to veer, slowly but surely.

Mindblowing that it was >40 years ago.

Kraftwerk

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I had a catholic upbringing. Catholic primary and secondary schools. Attended a seminary (Jesuits) too during a number of summers. Church choir. etc. Quite a religious family, with priests/nuns throughout on both sides.

And it didn't matter because the effect of Church control was disappearing by the time I entered schooling. The stories of my parents about the power of the parish priest were like fantasy stories in comparison to when I grew up (70s). Neither the schools, nor the priests in my community had much sway with what people believed outside of Mass and holy days.

The other post was "liked" by me because it was true. The Church owning 90% of schools doesn't matter one iota because the indoctrination of people was 'mostly' a thing of the past. People voted for SSM and Abortions, even though they had attended Catholic schooling.

Oh... and my understanding of English is pretty damn good. Perhaps you should consider the logic of what you want to write before writing it.

Another poster desperate to argue. The other post may have been true but it had nothing to do with me or what I wrote because I didn't say what that poster was arguing against. Perhaps you'd all like to go pvt for your little circle jerk given its got nothing to do with me?

There was nothing wrong with the logic of my post. Its a fact that the RCC control 90% of schools. Its logical to conclude that a church in control of 90% of the school and who 80% of the population still consider themselves part of are not without influence. While its not the influence they once had and it seems to be changing more and more that's not to say those days are gone forever when a huge proportion of the population still consider themselves part of that religion.