What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Poverty and lack of education go up because of multiculturalism, particularly with some demographics and this is seen wherever the politic is in play and with the same demographics. And we're not just talking about actual asylum seekers and refugees here. In a UCD study it was found: O’Connell and Kenny (2017) show that only about 40% of adult African nationals in Ireland are employed, far less than the average for Irish natives or for other immigrant groups. They also suffer much higher rates of unemployment than the national average. The pattern is similar in other European labour markets. 60% out of work in receipt of social support. Over half. And the majority of them came here not through the asylum process(where today most are refused), but on the back of the birthright citizenship loophole in the early 2000's. We've already imported an underclass. If that loophole hadn't been there we would have many thousands less on the dole. That's a fair chunk of change.

But that avenue is not there any longer, in order for Africans to move to Ireland they must either have a visa allowing them to, or be an asylum seeker or be a refugee.

So your point is moot

biko

bubblypop wrote: »

in order for Africans to move to Ireland they must either have a visa allowing them to, or be an asylum seeker or be a refugee.

Is there another reason for them to be in Ireland? What have you learned from your African friends? What brought them here?

Eric Cartman

bubblypop wrote: »

But that avenue is not there any longer, in order for Africans to move to Ireland they must either have a visa allowing them to, or be an asylum seeker or be a refugee.

So your point is moot

We only closed that loophole 16 years ago, we're only now seeing the fruits of that with the now teenage gang issues that commonly are brought up on this site, Now we're discussing the abuse of the DP system to allow more in without visas through the back door.

The reality of it is, in legal visa based immigration we decline the majority of people from countries like Nigeria , the decline rates are much higher among African countries due to not being able to establish their legality to be here.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/nearly-16000-people-refused-visas-22066540

Last year, there were 7,597 visa applications from Nigeria. However, just 4,126 of those – or 54.3% – were granted.

It was a similar story with applications from Sudan, where only 58% of almost 2,000 applications for a visa were approved.

The approval rate in Sierra Leone was only slightly higher with 70 out of 116 (60.3%) of applications successful according to the records.

Other countries do not present as much of an issue because theyre not trying to access Ireland with ill intentions :

The largest number of applications – just over 37,000 – came from India. The grant rate for people from that country was 96%, the Department of Justice said.

The next highest number of visa requests emanated from China. There were 22,990 in total and 96.5% of them were successful.

The third highest number of applications came from Russia and of the 18,551 visa requests processed from that country, 96.6% were granted.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

But that avenue is not there any longer, in order for Africans to move to Ireland they must either have a visa allowing them to, or be an asylum seeker or be a refugee.

So your point is moot

The point is anything but moot, it illustrates very well the innate problem with the subject of this thread, that is multiculturalism. We've already imported an underclass numbering in the many thousands. We shouldn't be trying to import more. Indeed I'd be looking to incentives to remove the ones already here.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

We only closed that loophole 16 years ago, we're only now seeing the fruits of that with the now teenage gang issues that commonly are brought up on this site, Now we're discussing the abuse of the DP system to allow more in without visas through the back door.

The reality of it is, in legal visa based immigration we decline the majority of people from countries like Nigeria , the decline rates are much higher among African countries due to not being able to establish their legality to be here.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/nearly-16000-people-refused-visas-22066540



Other countries do not present as much of an issue because theyre not trying to access Ireland with ill intentions :

Yes, so now it's closed.
And sorry but 'teenage gangs' have always been around, they are not the big bad mafia, there have been gangs from different areas in Dublin meeting for organised fights as long as I'm in Dublin.

If our system works properly then bogus asylum seekers do not get to stay.

biko

biko wrote: »

Is there another reason for them to be in Ireland? What have you learned from your African friends? What brought them here?

What have I learned from any friends?
I'm not sure what your point is.
This is a discussion board, I'm not here trying to prove a thesis.

I understand that you, in particular, do not seem to support any type of immigration. I don't have an issue with multiculturalism.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

The point is anything but moot, it illustrates very well the innate problem with the subject of this thread, that is multiculturalism. We've already imported an underclass numbering in the many thousands. We shouldn't be trying to import more. Indeed I'd be looking to incentives to remove the ones already here.

I think we should be trying to encourage people to get educated, or get a vocation. If they country actually rewarded workers, things would start to change. I don't care what skin colour, religion or background anyone has, they're all the same.
Reward work, do not reward layabouts.

biko

The politics that invite people that can't get work because they have no marketable skills is directly responsible for the fallout crimes and other problems, as are the voters for said politics.

Thelonious Monk

You're all gonna love this, lol

https://twitter.com/rte/status/1344023939958321153

Eric Cartman

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You're all gonna love this, lol

https://twitter.com/rte/status/1344023939958321153

Her father is a doctor, came in legally , she identifies as Zimbabwean-Irish and is a talented musician and college educated.

Shes a really good example of the type of migrant that we do welcome to Ireland.

Thelonious Monk

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Her father is a doctor, came in legally , she identifies as Zimbabwean-Irish and is a talented musician and college educated.

Shes a really good example of the type of migrant that we do welcome to Ireland.

I could only bear 10 seconds of it, it's awful. I just love how much it's annoying the commenters on Twitter.
Actually the comments from both sides are just bizarre.

Eric Cartman

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I could only bear 10 seconds of it, it's awful. I just love how much it's annoying the commenters on Twitter.
Actually the comments from both sides are just bizarre.

Her music isn't quite to my taste, but still talented.
Why people seem to think that her and Sharon Shannen can't work together because its 'Irish trad' is beyond me, music cannot be 'appropriated' otherwise the half of Kingston would be bitter about UB40.

Yellow_Fern

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Her music isn't quite to my taste, but still talented.
Why people seem to think that her and Sharon Shannen can't work together because its 'Irish trad' is beyond me, music cannot be 'appropriated' otherwise the half of Kingston would be bitter about UB40.

I saw the two of them perform on the Late Late. Tubridy seemed a bit less sober than usual and referred to the music fusion as "progressive". I suspect for him having Shannan and Denise play together is a political statement but for musicians, this kind of fusions etc is the normal course of things. Music is constantly evolving and it is a myth that traditional Irish music is somehow insular. Look at how bouzouki and the guitar entered trad in the 20th cen. People complaining about that are as bad as yanks telling us sushi is cultural appropriation.

biko

The price of multiculturalism is higher for some.
Samuel Paty, recently murdered for showing non-Muslims cartoons of Mohammad.
Lars Vilks, painted Mohammad in 2007. 13 years later still has police escort everywhere he goes and probably will have for life.
https://www.channel4.com/news/lars-vilks-the-artist-with-the-target-painted-on-his-back

This is the real backside of exotic food and whatnot the left can dream up as justifications for inviting Islam.

One eyed Jack

biko wrote: »

The price of multiculturalism is higher for some.
Samuel Paty, recently murdered for showing non-Muslims cartoons of Mohammad.
Lars Vilks, painted Mohammad in 2007. 13 years later still has police escort everywhere he goes and probably will have for life.
https://www.channel4.com/news/lars-vilks-the-artist-with-the-target-painted-on-his-back

This is the real backside of exotic food and whatnot the left can dream up as justifications for inviting Islam.

That’s a bit of a reach? From the article itself -


July 2007: Lars Vilks, a Swedish conceptual artist, writer, sculptor and professor of art theory, produces a series of caricatures of the prophet Mohammed.

He says his intention is to explore the boundaries of political correctness, noting that artists have tended to shy away from challenging Islam.


I’d suggest he was attempting to troll people myself and couch it as some sort of intellectual endeavour, but either way whatever we might call it, it seems his question was answered - there are extremists in any ideology who will take things to, well, extremes.

Are ordinary people, whichever way they may lean politically, responsible for the behaviour of extremists? I would suggest they’re not, because everyone is personally responsible for their own behaviour towards others, and when it comes to extremists that same standard still applies.

The troll is responsible for their behaviour, the extremists are responsible for theirs. Disproportionate and unnecessary behaviour is rewarded with disproportionate and unnecessary behaviour from the people they’ve chosen to troll. It doesn’t give the troll any legitimacy to portray themselves as a victim IMO.

biko

biko wrote: »

The price of multiculturalism is higher for some.
Samuel Paty, recently murdered for showing non-Muslims cartoons of Mohammad.
Lars Vilks, painted Mohammad in 2007. 13 years later still has police escort everywhere he goes and probably will have for life.
https://www.channel4.com/news/lars-vilks-the-artist-with-the-target-painted-on-his-back

This is the real backside of exotic food and whatnot the left can dream up as justifications for inviting Islam.

Will you stop!
Steve Collins and his family were under protection for years in this country because of threats from Irish crime families.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

Will you stop!
Steve Collins and his family were under protection for years in this country because of threats from Irish crime families.

Indeed and a very simple question yet again; why do we want to import more and different and seemingly intractable social problems on top of the existing ones?

Wibbs wrote: »

Poverty and lack of education go up because of multiculturalism, particularly with some demographics and this is seen wherever the politic is in play and with the same demographics. And we're not just talking about actual asylum seekers and refugees here. In a UCD study it was found: O’Connell and Kenny (2017) show that only about 40% of adult African nationals in Ireland are employed, far less than the average for Irish natives or for other immigrant groups. They also suffer much higher rates of unemployment than the national average. The pattern is similar in other European labour markets. 60% out of work in receipt of social support. Over half. And the majority of them came here not through the asylum process(where today most are refused), but on the back of the birthright citizenship loophole in the early 2000's. We've already imported an underclass. If that loophole hadn't been there we would have many thousands less on the dole. That's a fair chunk of change.

Wibbs wrote: »

Ghettoisation, the rise in identity politics, rise in racism, the importation of mores and attitudes that are contrary to liberal western thought(that was hard won on the backs of the corpses of millions), increased chances of radicalism on both sides, increased social tensions, increased unemployment, a confusion in education and employment standards, lack of integration among groups, less social cohesion, an addition of another underclass on top of existing ones, increased costs in education and social welfare, competition for housing at the lower end of society, which in turn increases sovereign debt because that has to be paid for. And all of the above gets worse over time and generations.

These are demonstrable consequences of modern European multiculturalism and occur wherever this politic and social experiment plays out. Again pick any European nation operating multiculturalism and show me an outlier. There isn't one. I know it's not a comfortable conclusion to come to and it isn't for me either FWIW, but it's the logical one.

biko

bubblypop wrote: »

Will you stop!
Steve Collins and his family were under protection for years in this country because of threats from Irish crime families.

How are these two even remotely related?

Tell me how

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed and a very simple question yet again; why do we want to import more and different and seemingly intractable social problems on top of the existing ones?

The very simple answer is the benefits outweigh the negatives.

biko

It might surprise some people to learn that according to IMF data, over 20 per cent of Ireland’s working population is comprised of immigrants.

That’s a bigger proportion than in the UK or US where, of course, immigration is causing deep and profound political schisms.

Angela Merkel may have caused uproar by taking in a million and more refugees over the past couple of years but Germany still has a smaller migrant workforce than does Ireland.


There are no downsides with this at all, nope, none.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Her father is a doctor, came in legally , she identifies as Zimbabwean-Irish and is a talented musician and college educated.

Shes a really good example of the type of migrant that we do welcome to Ireland.

That's the point really.. and the one that the pro-multiculturalism crowd can't seem to accept about those concerned with immigration.

We like those who enter legally. We like those who have stable homes. We like those who seek to improve themselves, and actually, try to involve themselves in the culture of their host country. If only we could encourage migration from families similar in background to theirs....

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

The very simple answer is the benefits outweigh the negatives.

And those benefits are? No.. not food, or some vague sense of cultural interexchange which seems so hard to quantify (based on the past posts about such a thing).

What are the proven benefits to European nations? (since they've been doing this for longer, so it should be easy to show the practical obvious benefits versus the costs involved)

biko

Some people believe immigrants are high skilled workers here to fix things.
At the same time highly skilled Irish left because there was no employment for them here.

Irish leave, immigrants come. That is apparently a benefit and the immigrants are not taking local jobs at all.

Remember, some people think that because their office employs an African cleaner they are helping to heal the world somehow.

One eyed Jack

Tell me how wrote: »

The very simple answer is the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Hmm... I’d more accurately have suggested that it’s hoped that in the long term it’s entirely beneficial to a country’s economy to take in immigrants, as opposed to entertaining the idea of assuming that immigrants should be perceived as detracting from a society. If preparation however is poor, then failure is inevitable, and that’s what we’re witnessing in other countries. Unfortunately, successive Irish Governments have failed to adequately prepare for immigrants or provide for them to be able to integrate into Irish society. That’s not immigrants fault, it’s the fault of the Irish Government - their policies inevitably lead to failure and it’s not just immigrants who they fail, but they also fail Irish society as a whole.

biko wrote: »

It might surprise some people to learn that according to IMF data, over 20 per cent of Ireland’s working population is comprised of immigrants.

That’s a bigger proportion than in the UK or US where, of course, immigration is causing deep and profound political schisms.

Angela Merkel may have caused uproar by taking in a million and more refugees over the past couple of years but Germany still has a smaller migrant workforce than does Ireland.


There are no downsides with this at all, nope, none.

Immigration isn’t what’s causing the deep political schism - people who are both for and against the idea, or have their own ideas, are what causes deep political schisms.

I’m not sure what the point is about the comparison between migrants in the workforce, or what downside you’re pointing to?

Are the “political schisms” today any more extreme than they have been in the past? I don’t think so, but just to give an example -


When fear and hatred of Irish Catholics set fire to an American city


Only 20% of the population in the US are Catholic, but they have managed to integrate themselves into every facet of American society, in spite of the “deep political schisms” that existed then, and still exist today.

There’s a downside of course if you go looking for them and assuming the worst of immigrants and are determined that they should never be given opportunities to better themselves or to make a life for themselves on an equal footing as anyone else in society, but for all their poor implementation of existing policies, I don’t imagine the Irish Government policy is to intentionally drive our economy into the shìtter. That’s a result of poor policy implementation, not immigration.

Wibbs

Tell me how wrote: »

The very simple answer is the benefits outweigh the negatives.

List them please. The negatives it seems are easy to list and easy to demonstrate with it, the positives not so easy going by this thread.

So benefits beyond charity, exoticism and cheap labour where applicable? The floor is yours.

dominatinMC

Wibbs wrote: »

List them please. The negatives it seems are easy to list and easy to demonstrate with it, the positives not so easy going by this thread.

So benefits beyond charity, exoticism and cheap labour where applicable? The floor is yours.

Looking forward to this list...if it ever materialises

46 Long

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Her father is a doctor, came in legally , she identifies as Zimbabwean-Irish and is a talented musician and college educated.

Shes a really good example of the type of migrant that we do welcome to Ireland.

I could do without her passive-aggressive bullshít to be honest. Wonder how the Zimbabweans would react if a Sinead/Sorcha/Aoife/Caoimhe took up residence in Harare and started rapping at the natives for pronouncing her name wrong.

Eric Cartman

46 Long wrote: »

I could do without her passive-aggressive bullshít to be honest. Wonder how the Zimbabweans would react if a Sinead/Sorcha/Aoife/Caoimhe took up residence in Harare and started rapping at the natives for pronouncing her name wrong.

I understand where youre coming from but at the end of the day music is a mad form of self expression, I mean weve had groups like the shamen writing songs about how good extacy is, the animals singing about heroin etc... music is a strange culture and anyones allowed write about anything. I love hip hop, great to see more artists in Ireland performing, Denise may have written a song about how people pronounce her name but its hardly the most outrageous rap song ever written, while the content might not be to everyones taste, myself included , she is talented and her back story is exactly the type of immigrant Ireland should welcome, she may go off on weird tangents on twitter but she is the product of what successful skills based immigration can bring and that should be celebrated, clearly working with sharon shannon is her attempt to appreciate the traditions of her formative years in Ireland and embrace our culture.

Denise chaila is a perfect example of the few positives of immigration , the right people coming in producing the right results in integration and contribution to society

Mike Murdock

Tell me how wrote: »

The very simple answer is the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Please explain how.

And if you say "to pay for our pensions" then you will lose all credibility.

One eyed Jack

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Denise chaila is a perfect example of the few positives of immigration , the right people coming in producing the right results in integration and contribution to society

Or rather, they’re a good example of the positives of giving people, regardless of their immigration status or other circumstances, the opportunities and support they need to contribute to society. I don’t think determinations can be made at individual level like what you’re doing. For example the same criteria you’re suggesting are required, would equally apply to Ebun Joseph. Do they contribute anything to society? Jury is positively split on their contribution to society :pac:

The point being that rather than focusing on the potential impact of individuals on society (that’s a poor measure or determinant of policy in any case), the focus should be on the policies themselves and implementing them in such a way as to enable everyone, regardless of their circumstances, to contribute to society.

It’s not much use for example having a fantastic education system (we really don’t, but speaking as if we do), if people don’t have the ability and opportunities to access that system, and the same applies to access to housing or enterprise and development. There are systems in place which exist already, but because of other barriers to entry (which are all different depending upon individual circumstances), people for one reason or another are excluded from gaining access to those systems and initiatives to enable them to integrate successfully into society and contribute to society.

The political will just isn’t there to address these issues. Politicians are simply more concerned with feathering their own nests, and I can’t say I blame them, it’s what politicians are bred to do, but whether or not they contribute to society? The jury is split on that one too depending upon one’s political leanings, but IMO Michael contributed more to society as a teacher than he has ever done as a politician, and Leo as a GP contributed more to society than he has ever done as a politician.

Sharon Shannon and starving artists are generally a drain on society’s resources (and there are many, many more starving artists than successful ones), but as you acknowledge yourself, they can contribute to society when they are given the appropriate support they need, and their contributions to society cannot always be measured in purely fiscal terms like the idea of John or Jane Q taxpayers contributions to the public purse (artists in Ireland can apply for an exemption to being liable for income tax).