What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Kivaro

One would have to ask why Africans in Ireland, who make up a small minority in the country, have quickly become very prominent in all our lives; unfortunately for the wrong reasons. The more Africans who arrive in Ireland and receive asylum seem to correlate with an increase in the accusation of racism countrywide. So the Irish are inherently racist or the accusations are baseless and/or exaggerated by those with vested interests.

If the percentage of Africans in Ireland who partake in employment was greater than the staggering low percentage of 40%, then there would be greater integration by them in the country where they were provided refuge. For the majority to linger on welfare with free housing and social services will only result in mistrust and resentment. Looking at the different larger ethnic groups who migrated to Ireland in the last couple of decades and participated fully by working and integrating, there is hardly a bad news story about them. Yet, this is not true for Africans (as a whole), and a similar story can be told in various countries around the world for that same group. So I doubt the blame is on the Irish.

Ireland should take a no-nonsense approach to employment and integration of economic migrants, but that approach may be a good number of years away yet even though the courage to act is absolutely necessary now.

Wibbs

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s not much use for example having a fantastic education system (we really don’t, but speaking as if we do), if people don’t have the ability and opportunities to access that system, and the same applies to access to housing or enterprise and development. There are systems in place which exist already, but because of other barriers to entry (which are all different depending upon individual circumstances), people for one reason or another are excluded from gaining access to those systems and initiatives to enable them to integrate successfully into society and contribute to society.

Which was the case before the late 90's non EU influx of migrants to Ireland and nothing has changed much since. So again, why import more intractable problems on top of existing intractable problems?

The political will just isn’t there to address these issues.

Again it wasn't before. It's not there in the rest of multicultural Europe where the exact same narratives have played out for decades. Again why import more negatives for little in the way of positives? Quite a few people on this thread have said this politic and social experiment is a positive. It's a near given apparently, yet when actually pushed for examples? It appears to be remarkably undefined beyond exoticism and charity. Not just here. If you have an oul google for positives the same exoticism and charity and variations on that theme is all there is. This goes for ex European colonies as well as European states.

More and more this politic looks a belief based on little evidence. A faith, rather than a politic. One that in my humble sprang from those same ex European colonies like America where it became increasingly hard to deny that their belief in a "melting pot" was a nonsense so naturally and with the best of intentions for the most part they tried to push the multicultural narrative as a positive. If we believed it enough things would change. Yet 60 years since Martin Luther King had his dream BLM needed to be heard. And within 20 years of Ireland becoming more "multicultural" we're already seeing the exact same narratives and growing divisions in play.

Thelonious Monk

So apart from giving out on here about how they're not integrating well and that we'll have black ghettos and stuff soon, is there anything you are able to do about it?
Do you think we need a party like UKIP or something here, with immigration point based system from non EU countries, and no more refugees?
The thing is, they'd never get voted in or any legislation passed. So things are going to carry on as is.

TomTomTim

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So apart from giving out on here about how they're not integrating well and that we'll have black ghettos and stuff soon, is there anything you are able to do about it?
Do you think we need a party like UKIP or something here, with immigration point based system from non EU countries, and no more refugees?
The thing is, they'd never get voted in or any legislation passed. So things are going to carry on as is.

I really have never understood the confidence that comes from people like you when you make statements as such. You yourself would agree, I assume, that Brexit, which a majority voted for, was at least somewhat motivated by immigration? Anti mass immigration parties are doing well all throughout Europe too if you haven't noticed, so I'm not sure where you get your bluster. As has been pointed out many times, Ireland is way behind most European countries when it comes to the project of multiculturalism, so the the results of it politically remain to be seen.

biko

I suppose people just want to have their say before this country is also sacrificed because of an impossible dream of world unity.

_Kaiser_

Kivaro wrote: »

One would have to ask why Africans in Ireland, who make up a small minority in the country, have quickly become very prominent in all our lives; unfortunately for the wrong reasons. The more Africans who arrive in Ireland and receive asylum seem to correlate with an increase in the accusation of racism countrywide. So the Irish are inherently racist or the accusations are baseless and/or exaggerated by those with vested interests.

If the percentage of Africans in Ireland who partake in employment was greater than the staggering low percentage of 40%, then there would be greater integration by them in the country where they were provided refuge. For the majority to linger on welfare with free housing and social services will only result in mistrust and resentment. Looking at the different larger ethnic groups who migrated to Ireland in the last couple of decades and participated fully by working and integrating, there is hardly a bad news story about them. Yet, this is not true for Africans (as a whole), and a similar story can be told in various countries around the world for that same group. So I doubt the blame is on the Irish.

Ireland should take a no-nonsense approach to employment and integration of economic migrants, but that approach may be a good number of years away yet even though the courage to act is absolutely necessary now.

You're not wrong, but unfortunately the damage is already done and we're seeing the fallout of that in the last few years particularly.

What needs to happen is a complete hold on accepting any more "refugees" or non-EU migration until we get a handle on the situation we've created, process those already in the system, and define a new strategy that doesn't include giving them all houses 3 months into their stay, and which is built upon the idea that migration should positively and tangibly benefit Ireland and its citizens as well as the new arrivals.

This wouldn't suit the "industry" though and as we have a political system that is increasingly reactive to social media identity politics and hysteria, it's not likely to happen - especially as FG are planning to artificially increase the population of the country by encouraging still more migration.

I said it a few years back on one of these threads, but immigration and its effects will become a key election issue yet and that time is approaching rapidly now.

Why some here expected things to be somehow different to experiences in the UK, Germany, France, or elsewhere is yet again a dramatic example of how ideology and virtue signalling is no substitute for reality and practicality.

Wibbs

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So apart from giving out on here about how they're not integrating well and that we'll have black ghettos and stuff soon, is there anything you are able to do about it?

No, not really TM. The horse has pretty much bolted at this stage. The time to do something about it was in the 90's and remove birthright citizenship, but hindsight is 20/20. When the Irish people were asked to vote on removing that in 04 they voted to remove it with the largest majority of any recent referendum. Now some politicians want to ignore that and reinstate it without going back to the Irish people. That's a current problem that people should bring up the next time the same politicians are looking for re-election.

Do you think we need a party like UKIP or something here, with immigration point based system from non EU countries, and no more refugees?
The thing is, they'd never get voted in or any legislation passed. So things are going to carry on as is.

No, not UKIP, but a point based system would indeed be a start and is kinda in operation already. EG the vast majority of those from places like Nigeria, Georgia and Romania are refused today because they're likely to be chancers. The same places that were largely unfettered in the past, so that's a positive change.

As for a more "right wing" party, or more an existing party that took a more right wing stance on this matter getting votes? I can certainly see that happening. More people than ever are tired of FF/FG which has seen a rise in support for parties like SF as some sort of alternative. A party that isn't some dancing at the crossroads old Ireland joke outfit like the National Party could well get votes and I suspect this will be more in play as time goes on. When you see tweets by the Dublin Mayor and the minister for justice appear to throw the Gardai under the bus over the shooting yesterday the distance between the politicians and the people grows.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You're all gonna love this, lol

https://twitter.com/rte/status/1344023939958321153

Pure scutter. Accordion alone is difficult enough to listen to without the rap which does not mix well.

Thelonious Monk

TomTomTim wrote: »

I really have never understood the confidence that comes from people like you when you make statements as such. You yourself would agree, I assume, that Brexit, which a majority voted for, was at least somewhat motivated by immigration?

I agree it was fuelled by immigration, they used pictures of throngs of Syrian refugees in their pro Brexit ad campaigns. I remember seeing people in North East towns being interviewed and they were complaining everyone was foreign, but they didn't mean Africans and Syrians etc they meant Polish, Lithuanian and the likes who seemed to be doing all the menial jobs in these towns.
I don't think anyone in Ireland has a problem with EU members coming here, no one I know anyway.
So an anti-EU party wont get anywhere, I think we're the most pro-EU country in Europe.
Do you think there's room for a party that wants no refugees, and no immigration from India/Pakistan/Africa? I don't really think they'd get a lot of votes personally, at the moment anyway - most people for now, would be quite weary of such a party.

Thelonious Monk

Also can someone tell me how so many centras etc are now staffed by South Asian people? How do get a visa to work such a menial job?

Del Griffith

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Also can someone tell me how so many centras etc are now staffed by South Asian people? How do get a visa to work such a menial job?

Students maybe

Thelonious Monk

Wibbs wrote: »

and Romania are refused today because they're likely to be chancers

That's not really fair, they're in the EU and any Romanian I've met has been because I've worked with them.

Wibbs

True. I shoud have made the distinction of Roma not Romanian. Very different things.

biko

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Also can someone tell me how so many centras etc are now staffed by South Asian people? How do get a visa to work such a menial job?

These are jobs that Irish don't want if you believe the wokes.
This is where the left is leading us.
I recently stayed in a Cork hotel where the entire staff was Filipino. That means 10/15 or so local youngsters didn't get local jobs.

titan18

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I agree it was fuelled by immigration, they used pictures of throngs of Syrian refugees in their pro Brexit ad campaigns. I remember seeing people in North East towns being interviewed and they were complaining everyone was foreign, but they didn't mean Africans and Syrians etc they meant Polish, Lithuanian and the likes who seemed to be doing all the menial jobs in these towns.
I don't think anyone in Ireland has a problem with EU members coming here, no one I know anyway.
So an anti-EU party wont get anywhere, I think we're the most pro-EU country in Europe.
Do you think there's room for a party that wants no refugees, and no immigration from India/Pakistan/Africa? I don't really think they'd get a lot of votes personally, at the moment anyway - most people for now, would be quite weary of such a party.

I honestly could see a sane anti mass immigration party who targeted the right areas get a fair few votes on elections. Might not get into general elections right away but could do well at local levels if they put the groundwork in.

Issue is the ones there ATM have their fair share of nutters who drag the lot down. Likes of the Irish Freedom Party being anti covid restrictions doesn't help them at all and Renua still have the anti abortion/religious party stain on them so anyone who might be liberal on those issues but anti mass immigration isn't voting for them.

A party/independents who were anti mass immigration and stuck with the status quo on other issues I could see doing well enough to maybe help change the discourse a bit.

Need someone brave enough to do it really as whoever puts themselves out there like that will be torn apart by the media.

Sir Oxman

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Also can someone tell me how so many centras etc are now staffed by South Asian people? How do get a visa to work such a menial job?

Most hold franchises including two of my local shops.

Sir Oxman

titan18 wrote: »

I honestly could see a sane anti mass immigration party who targeted the right areas get a fair few votes on elections. Might not get into general elections right away but could do well at local levels if they put the groundwork in.

Issue is the ones there ATM have their fair share of nutters who drag the lot down. Likes of the Irish Freedom Party being anti covid restrictions doesn't help them at all and Renua still have the anti abortion/religious party stain on them so anyone who might be liberal on those issues but anti mass immigration isn't voting for them.

A party/independents who were anti mass immigration and stuck with the status quo on other issues I could see doing well enough to maybe help change the discourse a bit.

Need someone brave enough to do it really as whoever puts themselves out there like that will be torn apart by the media.

Yes, it won't be the utter nutters in the Freedom or National parties that make serious inroads here.
IMO, it'll be an established party eventually, possibly FF (I can't see any other big party in the frame at all) with a rolback of open doors policy and hopefully taking on some of the excellent suggestions in this thread alone!
The collection of 'left' parties (SF/Green/SD/Lab/PBP-Sol) will never, ever engage in lucid, logical, rational conversations about this. Never.

We can all hope something akin to NP or IFP but with rational 'sounding' leadership and policies and a charasmatic leader doesn't take foothold because that will get a very big foothold with what is coming up.

Thelonious Monk

biko wrote: »

These are jobs that Irish don't want if you believe the wokes.
This is where the left is leading us.
I recently stayed in a Cork hotel where the entire staff was Filipino. That means 10/15 or so local youngsters didn't get local jobs.

Yeah but they wouldn't take the jobs, that's the thing. Maybe if they paid them more, but they're not going to do that. This is what happens when countries get rich.

titan18

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Yes, it won't be the utter nutters in the Freedom or National parties that make serious inroads here.
IMO, it'll be an established party eventually, possibly FF (I can't see any other big party in the frame at all) with a rolback of open doors policy and hopefully taking on some of the excellent suggestions in this thread alone!
The collection of 'left' parties (SF/Green/SD/Lab/PBP-Sol) will never, ever engage in lucid, logical, rational conversations about this. Never.

We can all hope something akin to NP or IFP but with rational 'sounding' leadership and policies and a charasmatic leader doesn't take foothold because that will get a very big foothold with what is coming up.

Ya, I do think if FF or FG swung more towards the anti mass immigration stance on this, they'd end up as the sure no 1 party. Imo, there is a sizable cohort who are anti it but they're silent on it. Even for myself, some of the views I have I avoid saying to people in friends with in real life just incase.

Id like if we get a similar sized party to Greens on the conservative side, just to help balance stuff out. If that happened with one of the main two seining more conservative too, it'd be nice

biko

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yeah but they wouldn't take the jobs, that's the thing. Maybe if they paid them more, but they're not going to do that. This is what happens when countries get rich.

Sounds like you are guessing. There are plenty other hotels and restaurants in the area with Irish people working.
However, it could be the owner of the place that decided it was better and cheaper to have foreign staff rather than local.

It's interesting that your first instinct is to blame the local Irish though.

Thelonious Monk

biko wrote: »

Sounds like you are guessing. There are plenty other hotels and restaurants in the area with Irish people working.
However, it could be the owner of the place that decided it was better and cheaper to have foreign staff rather than local.

It's interesting that your first instinct is to blame the local Irish though.

Well do you really think it's easy to find hotel room cleaners, that will stay for years and are hard workers? Who in Ireland wants to do that?
I'm not blaming anyone, I couldn't care less who lives here so I try and take an objective view on these things. For Irish people and these jobs, I think it mostly boils down to money and expectations in life. As our standards of living improve, it's going to be harder and harder to get Irish people doing these jobs. At best you'll get young people for a while, who'll eventually move on. The business operators are always going to take the cheapest easiest option too. This is all part of capitalism. We could probably have a fairer society for all workers with better benefits for the lower paid etc, which might attract more Irish employees, but it would probably mean everyone paying more tax, and not many would want that either.

biko

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well do you really think it's easy to find hotel room cleaners, that will stay for years and are hard workers? Who in Ireland wants to do that?

Not sure where you're going but let me guess and speculate too.

No-one wants to be a cleaner many years..
But for college kids between 17-22 it's a good gig and they do a good job, sure I did it myself for a summer.

I think you may be confusing what you yourself want with what kids want. There's plenty of youngsters around here that needs money and are willing to work.

Pulling the rug from under them by hiring foreign staff and then have the audacity to say it's because they don't want the work is doubly insulting.


Above is all guesswork and speculation of course. You should ask around and see for yourself if local youngsters would work as cleaners for a while for a decent wage.

Kivaro

Wibbs wrote: »

True. I shoud have made the distinction of Roma not Romanian. Very different things.

There is most definitely a distinction between the 2 groups from my experience; a night and day difference.

There was a High Court case recently where the judge ruled in favour of a Roma woman that allowed her to receive social welfare payments after living in Ireland for more than three months even though she never worked here. She had applied for disability allowance and was initially refused. This judgement now makes it possible for several thousand dependents of non-Irish EU nationals living in the Ireland to claim social welfare benefits, including disability allowance. Will there be an abnormal number of Roma going on disability in Ireland now, similar to what we see with the Irish Traveller community? Both groups are represented by the same NGO.

You can imagine the draw that Ireland has now become with these types of changes that are pushed through by progressive politicians and judges. Is there a benefit to Ireland with this type of multiculturalism? I don't see it, but there is a huge financial and social cost.

Thelonious Monk

Well look at it from a business owners point of view, they're always going to get the cheapest best option.
You did it for a summer, exactly, only a summer. A Filipino will probably commit to a couple of years. I used to wash dishes when I was in school, I doubt there are any Irish dish washers nowadays because they probably think it's beneath them. Maybe I'm wrong on this, or it might be just a Dublin thing as opportunities are limited elsewhere so it's easier to get local staff.
In the restaurant industry, they can't get chefs to save their lives at the moment, massive shortages. My friend is a head chef at a top restaurant in town. So they have to hire from abroad. The hotel/service industry is so big in Ireland (usually) that they're never going to be able to fill all these positions with locals, no way. When our main national policy seems to be economic growth, this kind of immigration is always going to be necessary.

Tell me how

biko wrote: »

It might surprise some people to learn that according to IMF data, over 20 per cent of Ireland’s working population is comprised of immigrants.

That’s a bigger proportion than in the UK or US where, of course, immigration is causing deep and profound political schisms.

Angela Merkel may have caused uproar by taking in a million and more refugees over the past couple of years but Germany still has a smaller migrant workforce than does Ireland.


There are no downsides with this at all, nope, none.

It doesn't surprise anyone.
That is why some of us can point to the evidence of multiculturalism working while more close their eyes and say there is no evidence of it.

Sounds like you weren't even aware of it until recently so what downsides are you talking about? I presume some that haven't even come to the surface.

You might also, or might not, know that a similar percentage of people who are Irish live in other countries. Including me at the moment, and if I am not mistaking, yourself also.

Tell me how

Wibbs wrote: »

List them please. The negatives it seems are easy to list and easy to demonstrate with it, the positives not so easy going by this thread.

So benefits beyond charity, exoticism and cheap labour where applicable? The floor is yours.

I wouldn't simply go by this thread or others on boards as to the view of wider society. Peter Casey becoming President didn't actually happen in the real world. Thankfully other threads which..... shall I say, end up with a largely singular view, aren't necessarily evident of the wider societal view on certain topics either.

As for benefits, and before I list some, it is interesting that you want to exclude exoticism and charity. I take it this means you recognize that there are benefits within interactions between cultures. I noted when I dropped in to this thread a few days ago also that someone was pointing out the success of asians in various locations while stating that africans were less successful. More of a tacit acceptance of multiculturalism while still seeking to insist it doesn't work.

Some benefits;
Variety in cuisine, arts, music, religion. (sorry not leaving out just because you want to exclude them)
Availability of many skilled people particularly in medical fields.
Exposure to people from different cultures which encourages people to then travel to those places for short or longer term stays.
Evidence that Ireland is a compassionate society willing to offer support and a home to those in need.
A continuation of our own cultural historic heritage of being an Island of a thousand welcomes.
Interaction between people leading to collaboration facilitating the opening of business and education opportunities for Irish people and businesses.
Interaction between cultures leads to greater understanding of the beliefs, practices, behaviors of people outside of just those who you grew up with.
Diversity within the workplace strengthens a businesses hand in targeting other markets.
Varied participants at a population level can help foster bonds and relationships at a national level leading to less argumentative diplomatic relationships.
It is merely a continuation of the way society has evolved to this point, and while you might say that was actually through violence and destruction, that violence and destruction has lessened as a consequence of the realisation that as people intermingle between cultures, there is more that unites than divides.
The solution to areas of continued conflict, such as in Israel at the moment will not come about through segregation and isolation but through a realisation that these cultures need to find ways to live together.
Exposure and participation in various religious, cultural or arts activities can be enjoyable as well as being informative.
Stronger community ties lead to a safer world.
Variety is the spice of life. Many people take fulfillment and indeed meaning and purpose in their lives through the study or creation of music, art, poetry, literature etc. Being able to select from additional cultures only widens the opportunity to do so.

McHardcore

Deleted User wrote: »

honestly, I've learned from this thread that people will believe what they want to believe, and you will likely dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your pov. Why? Because you'll be able to find research that supports your pov, just as others would find research that counters your pov. All in all, you'll choose what to accept if it supports your beliefs.

This is a terrible frame of mind. You need to enter the subject with an open view, look at the evidence, and draw your conclusion then. The same should be said for immigration policies. To quote D. Boateng et al. who looked at the relationship between crime and immigration in a number of European countries, including Sweden and Ireland:
"The results indicated a null relationship between immigration and crime, suggesting that immigration is unrelated to all the three types of crimes assessed. Based on these results, it is recommended that immigration-related policies will be based on fact and evidence, and not on sentiments and perceptions."

On your point:

Deleted User wrote: »

haha... You've just proven that people see what they want to see, rather than what was written.

Look back on your post. You gave a blanket dismissal of States and "organisations" reports on migration as there was a "inherent bias in what they report" and "a direct bias to present immigration as being a net benefit, to justify the agendas at play.":

Deleted User wrote: »

The majority of organisations who dedicate themselves to making reports are directly involved in immigration, or activism, and have an inherent bias in what they report, and how they present it.

State reporting, typically, is more reliable, however, due to the focus on promoting immigration over the last two decades (as part of State/EU policy), they've allowed other organisations to take over the primary active role in doing so. Why? Because there was a direct bias to present immigration as being a net benefit, to justify the agendas at play.

You go on then to tell us how you pulled these State and "organisations" reports to back up your own statements:

Deleted User wrote: »

Throughout this thread, I have provided various links to back up my statements. .... I've invariably pulled a report or two to do that.

A case of having your cake and eating it too?
If you feel that your State and "organisations" reports are correct, but everyones elses are wrong, you need to clearly identify why the other persons report is wrong. Vague blanket dismissals of "inherent bias" against everyone else's reports is a weak argument and undermines the reports that you have linked to yourself.

Deleted User wrote: »

I struggled to find reliable information regarding education, but don't let that stop you from broadening my point beyond what I actually said. :rolleyes:

You broadened it yourself: Along with describing State and "organisations" as an unreliable source of information, you said education was only "an example" Again, have a read of your quote:

Deleted User wrote: »

"Let me give you an example. I wanted to find out the education level of migrants entering Ireland over the last two decades. I looked online. Nothing. I emailed and phoned the CSO, nothing. I checked the EU commission database, nothing.

This point:

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh. Just to add something that should be obvious. Any post that doesn't provide links/evidence to support it, is just an opinion. It is unreliable. Yours, mine, every post. They're opinions.. Just as they're often opinions backed up by evidence, but remain opinions, because none of us are accredited/identifiable experts. Amazing that this needed to be said.

is irrelevant to the argument.

McHardcore

Deleted User wrote: »

Regarding Sweden.

"The investigation (from 2002 to 2017) covers seven distinct categories of crime, and distinguishes between seven regions of origin. Based on 33 per cent of the population (2017), 58 per cent of those suspect for total crime on reasonable grounds are migrants. Regarding murder, manslaughter and attempted murder, the figures are 73 per cent, while the proportion of robbery is 70 per cent. Non-registered migrants are linked to about 13 per cent of total crime. Given the fact that this group is small, crime propensity among non-registered migrants is significant"

" Due to migration, murder rate in Sweden has quadrupled"

And yes, many migrants don't engage in crime, but the fact remains that Sweden, the poster child for rapid change of a mostly homogeneous population, has experienced a huge increase in crime, and one that can be directly connected to it's immigration policies.

The full report is definitely worth a read. After reading it, perhaps ask the question, why would Ireland be different?

If anyone else needs more convincing that there is no or mixed link between crime and immigration in Sweden after reading this post, here are some additional research findings:

Beckley et al. criticised previous reports that did not take into account population's employment, education level and age, all of which affect level of crime. In general, research that takes these factors into account does not support the idea that there is a link between immigration and crime (The Routledge Handbook on Crime and International Migration. Routledge. p. 42.).

If we look at Sweden's National Council for Crime Prevention, Stina Holmberg said that "there is no basis for drawing the conclusion that crime rates are soaring in Sweden and that that is related to immigration"

Swedish police published data that showed from October 2015 to January 2016, 5,000 police calls out of 537,466 involved asylum seekers and refugees.
The professor of criminology at Stockholm University, Felipe Estrada, has said this shows how the media gives disproportionate attention to and exaggerates the alleged criminal involvement of asylum seekers and refugees.

Wibbs

Tell me how wrote: »

As for benefits, and before I list some, it is interesting that you want to exclude exoticism and charity. I take it this means you recognize that there are benefits within interactions between cultures.

Nope. I recognise they're extremely nebulous "positives".

I noted when I dropped in to this thread a few days ago also that someone was pointing out the success of asians in various locations while stating that africans were less successful. More of a tacit acceptance of multiculturalism while still seeking to insist it doesn't work.

Or that some multiculturalism works with some demographics but clearly fails with others. Would a multiculturalism with only East and South Asians and White Europeans be OK with you then? That seems to work.

Some benefits;
Variety in cuisine, arts, music, religion. (sorry not leaving out just because you want to exclude them)/Exposure and participation in various religious, cultural or arts activities can be enjoyable as well as being informative./Variety is the spice of life. Many people take fulfillment and indeed meaning and purpose in their lives through the study or creation of music, art, poetry, literature etc. Being able to select from additional cultures only widens the opportunity to do so.

Yep exoticism. Oh and you don't need to import people to import cultures. Rural Ireland has a gra for country and western music going back decades. How many folks actually from Nashville live in Clare?

Exposure to people from different cultures which encourages people to then travel to those places for short or longer term stays.

Eh... what?

Evidence that Ireland is a compassionate society willing to offer support and a home to those in need.

Better to sort our own out first. Especially when our own are in need of homes.

A continuation of our own cultural historic heritage of being an Island of a thousand welcomes.

Which is mostly nonsense as our history quite clearly demonstrates. Maybe have a look at other refugees coming here in the 20th century. The vast majority were moved on very quickly and in the case of the Vietnamese "boat people" the UN had to apply pressure to Ireland to take any and in the end we took less than 500.

Interaction between people leading to collaboration facilitating the opening of business and education opportunities for Irish people and businesses.

What nonsense is that? How does multiculturalism increase that? This goes triple for migrants with lower educational standards. They add to the social welfare bill and our sovereign debt and that is already the case in Ireland after 20 years of it.

Interaction between cultures leads to greater understanding of the beliefs, practices, behaviors of people outside of just those who you grew up with.

And yet to take the Nigerian diaspora here, a survey into attitudes by the Immigrant Council of Ireland no less showed they are strongly likely to feel that they do not have many values in common with Irish people. That's clearly working then. That's before we look to wider Europe and the growth of serious divisions and ghettoisation with Muslim communities. Or have you missed that too?

Diversity within the workplace strengthens a businesses hand in targeting other markets.

Our biggest market is the EU. How does having someone from Chad increase value in that market? The only studies that show any positive in workplace diversity is in nations like the US where multiculturalism is already in play. It can help sell to minorities.

Varied participants at a population level can help foster bonds and relationships at a national level leading to less argumentative diplomatic relationships.

More word salad that means nada and nada concrete. And you may have missed the race riots and fault lines in every single western multicultural nation. Have you missed what's currently going on in Dublin today and how that apes the experiences of every single multicultural nation in Europe and beyond? Things become more argumentative and more divisive in multicultural societies. Point me to one where it hasn't.

It is merely a continuation of the way society has evolved to this point, and while you might say that was actually through violence and destruction, that violence and destruction has lessened as a consequence of the realisation that as people intermingle between cultures, there is more that unites than divides.

Apparently not and again show me one European nation where it's not the case.

The solution to areas of continued conflict, such as in Israel at the moment will not come about through segregation and isolation but through a realisation that these cultures need to find ways to live together.

Israel? :pac: The only way peace will come to Israel is when the original Arab population is nigh on gone by being ever more squeezed out. That's what the Israelis have been doing since the plantation of Palestine and the formation of the state of Israel. Horrific that it has been and uncomfortable it is to acknowledge on many levels, but the more they did it the safer Israel has become. You're actually arguing in favour of monoculturalism with that example.

Stronger community ties lead to a safer world.

And yet multicultural nations in the West tend to fewer social community ties than monocultural nations. Again this is demonstrable.

Availability of many skilled people particularly in medical fields.

Man I never thought I'd see the "doctors and engineers" gambit. There's a huge difference between controlled and legal migration and importation of another underclass on top of the existing ones. 60% of Nigerians are in receipt of social welfare. 60%. With demographics like the Roma it's higher again. Where's the availability of "many skilled people" there?

Wibbs

McHardcore wrote: »

Beckley et al. criticised previous reports that did not take into account population's employment, education level and age, all of which affect level of crime.

Indeed so and I would agree and which demographics are more likely to be unemployed, have lower educational standards and a younger demographic? Legal migrants, natives, or illegal and quasi legal migrants? Asians, White Europeans, Africans? In Ireland as of today more than half of Sub Saharan Africans are unemployed. Again why are we hellbent on importing another underclass with even more problems and it seems intractable ones going on the experiences of our multicultural European neighbours?