What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

wildeside

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

A lot of areas in the UK are not actually "multicultural" - rather they become separate areas of mono-culture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgXFzauGwog

It's not hard to see why a growing number of English people are concerned about immigration and why voting patterns are what they are becoming today - which is ever more to the right.

Well technically this is a form of multiculturalism, there are two main models i.e. the "melting pot" and "salad bowl" versions. The former one is where every culture converges into more or less one culture, the latter where paralell cultures co-exist.


Britain in many places is very much the salad-bowl model. And it seems to be the model that evolves naturally when the numbers are large enough.

Hamachi

wildeside wrote: »

The world has always been shaped by the elites and their particular world-view (just look at any of Adam Curtis documentaries e.g. Centry of The Self on YouTube for a history of this in the last 100 years for example). This is not conspiratorial clap-trap nonsense, it's just a simple fact of life. I mean somebody has to decide how society is organised and run e.g. freemarket economy vs communism say. Someone has to come up with these ideas and then implement them ... and then we all see what happens.

Thank you for your insightful answer. I’ll be sure to check out that Adam Curtis documentary to learn more here.

It’s very refreshing to have a reasonable discussion about our changing society, without being condemned as a xenophobe or branded with the scarlet ‘R’.

wildeside

Hamachi wrote: »

Thank you for your insightful answer. I’ll be sure to check out that Adam Curtis documentary to learn more here.

It’s very refreshing to have a reasonable discussion about our changing society, without being condemned as a xenophobe or branded with the scarlet ‘R’.

No worries. Yeah real debate and genuine intellectual inquiry on an issue like this is nigh on impossible in the real world. So much for a liberal democracy.

olestoepoke

ELM327 wrote: »

Thats a very interesting point of view.
Is less time wasted learning Irish than in the main schools helping other kids learn english?

The short answer to this is no. Children in a Gaeilscoil don't "learn Irish" so there is zero time wasted learning Irish. They use a system called early immersion. We speak Irish at home and the children went to an Irish speaking pre-school so had a good level before they started primary. Speaking English is forbidden in school grounds as part of the early immerson so children pick the language up extremely quickly. So yeah no time is wasted on education due to leaning Irish because everything is taught in Irish.

threeball

And there is a very definite push to increase immigration in this country with many politicians including Varadkar looking to see our population rise to 7 million over the next decade or so. When this happens you can just delete the Irish as a people. We're already losing our music, our friendliness (not due to immigration, more down to absorbing the cultures of the lands either side of us), but when you add in such a huge volume of people who don't have the same outlook as us then our way of life will be niche. All in the pursuit of continuous economic growth which is a pyramid scheme within itself. If this kind of population increase occurs we'll be no different than England. Living on top of one another in our own little enclaves and nothing bonding the country together.

ArchXStanton

wildeside wrote: »

I think the end-game is actually pretty obvious i.e. the end of nation states as such. And no, I'm not wearing a tin-foil hat .... not today at least.

The world has always been shaped by the elites and their particular world-view (just look at any of Adam Curtis documentaries e.g. Centry of The Self on YouTube for a history of this in the last 100 years for example). This is not conspiratorial clap-trap nonsense, it's just a simple fact of life. I mean somebody has to decide how society is organised and run e.g. freemarket economy vs communism say. Someone has to come up with these ideas and then implement them ... and then we all see what happens.

The European elite in particular are terrified of another world war on the continent, two of them left their mark and we got the EU out of it (which we have a lot to be thankful for). The EU elite theory is that nation states ultimately end up fighting each other, often around the issue of nationalism/identify. So how do we solve that particular problem? Well, if you could erase or at least blur the lines then surely that would lead to a more peaceful world. It's a very plausible theory. It's also one massive social experiment.


Also the free-market globalists want to maximise trade and reduce trade friction. That means opening up countries and borders. Freedom of movement of people, goods and services is paramount to the functioning of this system. Proponents of this ideology argue that this creates a rising tide that lifts all boats and it's kind of hard to argue the point when you see how we live now compared to say 30-40 years ago. Largely agrarian to largely knowledge-based economy in a very short space of time. Very like South Korea in that regard.

So globalisation as a socio-economic ideology can in theory lift and lot of people out of poverty and create a more peaceful (less nationalised) world.

I think the aims are noble but, like communism, putting the theory into practise may yield wholly unintended results.

Jaysys ... what a rant. But yeah, the end goal is clear enough.

I've no doubt it's the EU pushing this agenda, all of a sudden the last few years we "need" this immigration and its "essential".,right around the time it started to flex its muscles, it tried to play both sides of the road at the height of the migration crisis because it wasn't making them all too popular, the terror incidents the last few years speak for themselves about how its working out.

I'd disagree about preventing another world war on the continent though, weve had a few decades of peace already,largely thanks to NATO, I'd say its more about propping up their ponzi scheme and what's in the interests of big business... The companies will be very pleased with them...

Hamachi

threeball wrote: »

And there is a very definite push to increase immigration in this country with many politicians including Varadkar looking to see our population rise to 7 million over the next decade or so. When this happens you can just delete the Irish as a people. We're already losing our music, our friendliness (not due to immigration, more down to absorbing the cultures of the lands either side of us), but when you add in such a huge volume of people who don't have the same outlook as us then our way of life will be niche. All in the pursuit of continuous economic growth which is a pyramid scheme within itself. If this kind of population increase occurs we'll be no different than England. Living on top of one another in our own little enclaves and nothing bonding the country together.

To be fair, I don’t think that the intent is to grow the population by two million in the next decade. I quickly scanned the Ireland 2040 plan last year.

If I recall correctly, they are projecting a population of 6 million by 2040. We’ve probably hit 5 million today; we’re looking at + 1 million throughout the next two decades.

However, much of this increase will attribute to natural population growth (births - deaths). Ireland still has a fairly healthy fertility rate and a young population structure in a European context. The estimate is that 600-650K of that growth will be achieved naturally. The remainder will come from inward migration.

Both Varadkar and Coveney are despicable individuals. Coveney is a disciple of the late Peter Sutherland, the former chairman of Goldman Sachs, who once declared that the homogeneity of European nation states must be undermined at all costs. Varadkar’s performance on Prime Time last night was atrocious. His smug, self-congratulatory smirking at his ‘Mean Girls’ quote, whilst > 1700 of our fellow country men and women have died due to Covid-19, genuinely made my stomach churn.

The sooner both of them are alienated from wielding real power, the better for Ireland. The problem is that no real alternative exists today.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

olestoepoke wrote: »

My two boys go to an all Irish speaking gaelscoil. We chose this form of education because the alternative educate together is mostly "new Irish". I read that there has been an increase in demand for Irish speaking schools in recent years and many believe it is due to a form of racism or xenephobia but our main motive was fear of stunted learning due to time wasted on foreign kids etc. I'm not doubting there is some racism behind the popularity of irish schools as in our case the pupils are 99% "old irish"

Trust me you made a great decision. My niece goes to one of those educate together schools. She came home one day and told her mother she got to wear a hijab at school today.

She’s eight.

ArchXStanton

threeball wrote: »

And there is a very definite push to increase immigration in this country with many politicians including Varadkar looking to see our population rise to 7 million over the next decade or so. When this happens you can just delete the Irish as a people. We're already losing our music, our friendliness (not due to immigration, more down to absorbing the cultures of the lands either side of us), but when you add in such a huge volume of people who don't have the same outlook as us then our way of life will be niche. All in the pursuit of continuous economic growth which is a pyramid scheme within itself. If this kind of population increase occurs we'll be no different than England. Living on top of one another in our own little enclaves and nothing bonding the country together.

I've lived in multicultural places and one thing that always struck me and was a breath of fresh air on coming home was the friendliness of people, even walking down my hometown getting a hello off people or a salute from someone driving by.

I was giving a builder friend a dig out this morning, we ended up at a builders providers he's a regular at, what struck me was the slagging and banter he was having with lads in the yard driving by on forklifts, I don't think a lot of foreign people get that way of going on

Hamachi

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Trust me you made a great decision. My niece goes to one of those educate together schools. She came home one day and told her mother she got to wear a hijab at school today.

She’s eight.

My cousin lives in London. The same thing happened to his older daughter a couple of years ago. His English wife absolutely hit the roof.

It hasn’t happened again...

BarnardsLoop

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Trust me you made a great decision. My niece goes to one of those educate together schools. She came home one day and told her mother she got to wear a hijab at school today.

She’s eight.

Oh no, imagine being... exposed to another culture! :eek:

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

BarnardsLoop wrote: »

Oh no, imagine being... exposed to another culture! :eek:

You do know women are being killed in the streets of some Muslim countries for daring to take them off yeah? Now if the school said wear the traditional dress of “x” country that would be perfectly fine but not a bloody hijab.

Do you really think that’s ok?

Assetbacked

Multiculturalism is good, on the understanding that other cultures adapt to each other in harmony. But immigration, not refugees but labour immigration to Ireland and other countries is pushing down wages and eroding the middle classes. There needs to be more done to control working and studying permits issued for entry into Ireland and other countries. Alas, I do not think this is achievable with Ireland's EU membership so I am starting to question whether I would prefer to leave in order to ensure the revitalisation of our middle class. Unfortunately, anti-EU parties are typically subverted by racists so I don't think I will be attaching to any of these parties when expressing my doubts about our EU membership.

tayto lover

BarnardsLoop wrote: »

Oh no, imagine being... exposed to another culture! :eek:

Try making one of them wear a rosary beads around their necks and see what will happen.

snotboogie

Assetbacked wrote: »

Multiculturalism is good, on the understanding that other cultures adapt to each other in harmony. But immigration, not refugees but labour immigration to Ireland and other countries is pushing down wages and eroding the middle classes. There needs to be more done to control working and studying permits issued for entry into Ireland and other countries. Alas, I do not think this is achievable with Ireland's EU membership so I am starting to question whether I would prefer to leave in order to ensure the revitalisation of our middle class. Unfortunately, anti-EU parties are typically subverted by racists so I don't think I will be attaching to any of these parties when expressing my doubts about our EU membership.

Leave the EU to stop students coming into the country?

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I've lived in multicultural places and one thing that always struck me and was a breath of fresh air on coming home was the friendliness of people, even walking down my hometown getting a hello off people or a salute from someone driving by.

I was giving a builder friend a dig out this morning, we ended up at a builders providers he's a regular at, what struck me was the slagging and banter he was having with lads in the yard driving by on forklifts, I don't think a lot of foreign people get that way of going on

I lived in a very “diverse” part of London for years. To describe it as a hell hole would be generous. It’s clear it hasn’t worked over there and I don’t want to see Ireland make the same mistakes. I’m willing to bet most of the people who love the idea of diversity haven’t been anywhere except Lanzarote in their lives.

Experience it first hand and you will 100% reject the idea.

Take a weekend break to Paris and tell me how it’s a better place with “diversity”.

southstar

Hamachi wrote: »

To be fair, I don’t think that the intent is to grow the population by two million in the next decade. I quickly scanned the Ireland 2040 plan last year.

If I recall correctly, they are projecting a population of 6 million by 2040. We’ve probably hit 5 million today; we’re looking at + 1 million throughout the next two decades.

However, much of this increase will attribute to natural population growth (births - deaths). Ireland still has a fairly healthy fertility rate and a young population structure in a European context. The estimate is that 600-650K of that growth will be achieved naturally. The remainder will come from inward migration.

Both Varadkar and Coveney are despicable individuals. Coveney is a disciple of the late Peter Sutherland, the former chairman of Goldman Sachs, who once declared that the homogeneity of European nation states must be undermined at all costs. Varadkar’s performance on Prime Time last night was atrocious. His smug, self-congratulatory smirking at his ‘Mean Girls’ quote, whilst > 1700 of our fellow country men and women have died due to Covid-19, genuinely made my stomach churn.

The sooner both of them are alienated from wielding real power, the better for Ireland. The problem is that no real alternative exists today.

What does 'alienated from wielding real power' actually mean?
Not a huge fan of either but this contrived outrage about the bloody Varadker quote says more about the moaners than anything...real tacky tabloid outrage..all contrived.....that's the real disrespect.
At least Varadker put a shift in...not like many of the goblins, chancers and opportunists suddenly re-emerging when things have calmed a little.

southstar

Hamachi wrote: »

To be fair, I don’t think that the intent is to grow the population by two million in the next decade. I quickly scanned the Ireland 2040 plan last year.

If I recall correctly, they are projecting a population of 6 million by 2040. We’ve probably hit 5 million today; we’re looking at + 1 million throughout the next two decades.

However, much of this increase will attribute to natural population growth (births - deaths). Ireland still has a fairly healthy fertility rate and a young population structure in a European context. The estimate is that 600-650K of that growth will be achieved naturally. The remainder will come from inward migration.

Both Varadkar and Coveney are despicable individuals. Coveney is a disciple of the late Peter Sutherland, the former chairman of Goldman Sachs, who once declared that the homogeneity of European nation states must be undermined at all costs. Varadkar’s performance on Prime Time last night was atrocious. His smug, self-congratulatory smirking at his ‘Mean Girls’ quote, whilst > 1700 of our fellow country men and women have died due to Covid-19, genuinely made my stomach churn.

The sooner both of them are alienated from wielding real power, the better for Ireland. The problem is that no real alternative exists today.

What does 'alienated from wielding real power' actually mean?
Not a huge fan of either but this contrived outrage about the bloody Varadker quote says more about the moaners than anything...real tacky tabloid outrage..all contrived.....that's the real disrespect.
At least Varadker put a shift in...not like many of the goblins, chancers and opportunists suddenly re-emerging when things have calmed a little.

southstar

wildeside wrote: »

I think the end-game is actually pretty obvious i.e. the end of nation states as such. And no, I'm not wearing a tin-foil hat .... not today at least.

The world has always been shaped by the elites and their particular world-view (just look at any of Adam Curtis documentaries e.g. Centry of The Self on YouTube for a history of this in the last 100 years for example). This is not conspiratorial clap-trap nonsense, it's just a simple fact of life. I mean somebody has to decide how society is organised and run e.g. freemarket economy vs communism say. Someone has to come up with these ideas and then implement them ... and then we all see what happens.

The European elite in particular are terrified of another world war on the continent, two of them left their mark and we got the EU out of it (which we have a lot to be thankful for). The EU elite theory is that nation states ultimately end up fighting each other, often around the issue of nationalism/identify. So how do we solve that particular problem? Well, if you could erase or at least blur the lines then surely that would lead to a more peaceful world. It's a very plausible theory. It's also one massive social experiment.


Also the free-market globalists want to maximise trade and reduce trade friction. That means opening up countries and borders. Freedom of movement of people, goods and services is paramount to the functioning of this system. Proponents of this ideology argue that this creates a rising tide that lifts all boats and it's kind of hard to argue the point when you see how we live now compared to say 30-40 years ago. Largely agrarian to largely knowledge-based economy in a very short space of time. Very like South Korea in that regard.

So globalisation as a socio-economic ideology can in theory lift and lot of people out of poverty and create a more peaceful (less nationalised) world.

I think the aims are noble but, like communism, putting the theory into practise may yield wholly unintended results.

Jaysys ... what a rant. But yeah, the end goal is clear enough.

Good mature analysis ...not a rant at all

jmreire

BarnardsLoop wrote: »

Oh no, imagine being... exposed to another culture! :eek:

Being forced to adopt the customs of another culture is not the kind of exposure we need....now assume that the foot was on the other foot, and the "other" culture was "forced" to adopt normal Irish dress standards? I guarantee you, that would generate some reaction......and not in a good way.

BarnardsLoop

Hunky Monster wrote: »

You do know women are being killed in the streets of some Muslim countries for daring to take them off yeah? Now if the school said wear the traditional dress of “x” country that would be perfectly fine but not a bloody hijab.

Do you really think that’s ok?

Yes, I do know that. I don't really see what it has to do with getting upset that your niece was exposed to the dress of another culture. In spite of what some people here think, this isn't a Muslim country.

tayto lover wrote: »

Try making one of them wear a rosary beads around their necks and see what will happen.

Not really the same thing, though, is it? Ireland has been Catholic for hundreds of years so the vast, vast majority of children will, at some point, have been exposed to them.

Also: what do you think would happen, hmm?

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

BarnardsLoop wrote: »

Yes, I do know that. I don't really see what it has to do with getting upset that your niece was exposed to the dress of another culture. In spite of what some people here think, this isn't a Muslim country.

Upset?

How do you think putting rosary beads on muslim children in muslim countries would go down?

The hijab is a form of oppression, it's terrible for women in many countries across the world and you think it's O.K. to put one on an eight year old? For example women are jailed in Iran for 10-20 years and in some cases killed for daring to take it off. It's not the "cultural" sybmol you think it is, it's a way of subjugating women. I will say this loud and clear, I do not want the children of Ireland to wear them at all, ever.

If you think all "cultures" are equal I've some shocking news for you... We are all human beings but some cultures are not as good as other cultures.

Assetbacked

snotboogie wrote: »

Leave the EU to stop students coming into the country?

To take control of your own immigration policy. The issue is the part time work international students can do which has pushed down the salaries of jobs typically taken by students.

ArchXStanton

Hunky Monster wrote: »

I lived in a very “diverse” part of London for years. To describe it as a hell hole would be generous. It’s clear it hasn’t worked over there and I don’t want to see Ireland make the same mistakes. I’m willing to bet most of the people who love the idea of diversity haven’t been anywhere except Lanzarote in their lives.

Experience it first hand and you will 100% reject the idea.

Take a weekend break to Paris and tell me how it’s a better place with “diversity”.

I lived in Toronto for a bit, while it supposedly works over there, it works in the way there's a Little India, little Italy, little Greece, little Portugal, 2 China towns and a cabbagetown(the old Irish neighbourhood but long since blended in)

I'm reminded of a quote from a book from a visitor to Ireland..

"I notice, watching the different nationalities on the mountain, the fluidity of interaction the Irish people have with the visitors, and with each other. It's a skill that's less developed in other nationalities, and it's so instinctive it doesn't even look like a skill"

ArchXStanton

Assetbacked wrote: »

To take control of your own immigration policy. The issue is the part time work international students can do which has pushed down the salaries of jobs typically taken by students.

Too bad we handed an awful lot of power to Brussels, but sure then again when we voted against this we had to vote again, of course we wanted more EU...

jmreire

BarnardsLoop wrote: »

Yes, I do know that. I don't really see what it has to do with getting upset that your niece was exposed to the dress of another culture. In spite of what some people here think, this isn't a Muslim country.



Not really the same thing, though, is it? Ireland has been Catholic for hundreds of years so the vast, vast majority of children will, at some point, have been exposed to them.

Also: what do you think would happen, hmm?

If the two girls did a trade,( in the interests of cultural exchange's ) swopped a Rosary for a hijab, what would happen? Here in Ireland,not too much. But I'd imagine that the when the Muslim girls parents got wind of it there would be a meeting in the school, and the teachers would be told in no uncertain terms that it was not to happen again,,,ever. Go further afield, to an Islamic country, and repeat the experiment. For sure there will be a meeting, between the girls parent's and you...and you would be told in even stronger terms that your Daughter was not to even display, never mind swap a Rosary or a Crucifix with one of her Muslim school friends. And if it were to happen again.....( you really don't want to know what the outcome would be ) And that is the difference ( or one of them at any rate ) between the two cultures and Countries.

ChikiChiki

It's fantastic when people from new cultures are integrating into the community and making an effort. Likewise the community needs to make them feel welcome.

However where there is no integration it can only be described as a disaster is waiting. I think Direct Provision is going to build a huge amount of resentment towards Ireland from the people trapped under them living conditions and that will be very harmful 15/20 years down the line.

snotboogie

Assetbacked wrote: »

To take control of your own immigration policy. The issue is the part time work international students can do which has pushed down the salaries of jobs typically taken by students.

We have become imensely richer as a country since joining the EU. We have an export driven economy. What you are proposing is madness

ArchXStanton

snotboogie wrote: »

We have become imensely richer as a country since joining the EU. We have an export driven economy. What you are proposing is madness

Have we? And even if we did its too heavy a price to pay in my opinion

Chris_Heilong

ChikiChiki wrote: »

It's fantastic when people from new cultures are integrating into the community and making an effort. Likewise the community needs to make them feel welcome.

However where there is no integration it can only be described as a disaster is waiting. I think Direct Provision is going to build a huge amount of resentment towards Ireland from the people trapped under them living conditions and that will be very harmful 15/20 years down the line.

They are sold a false view of western countries before they decide to come over, human traffickers tell them everyone id given a house and a car and the governments gives you money for free so when they arrive and are put into processing they feel cheated by the human traffickers and the Irish Government. But there are few alternatives as a high percentage dont qualify for asylum, best the government can do is speed the process up.