What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

One eyed Jack

Wibbs wrote: »

Which was the case before the late 90's non EU influx of migrants to Ireland and nothing has changed much since. So again, why import more intractable problems on top of existing intractable problems?

Again it wasn't before. It's not there in the rest of multicultural Europe where the exact same narratives have played out for decades. Again why import more negatives for little in the way of positives? Quite a few people on this thread have said this politic and social experiment is a positive. It's a near given apparently, yet when actually pushed for examples? It appears to be remarkably undefined beyond exoticism and charity. Not just here. If you have an oul google for positives the same exoticism and charity and variations on that theme is all there is. This goes for ex European colonies as well as European states.

More and more this politic looks a belief based on little evidence. A faith, rather than a politic. One that in my humble sprang from those same ex European colonies like America where it became increasingly hard to deny that their belief in a "melting pot" was a nonsense so naturally and with the best of intentions for the most part they tried to push the multicultural narrative as a positive. If we believed it enough things would change. Yet 60 years since Martin Luther King had his dream BLM needed to be heard. And within 20 years of Ireland becoming more "multicultural" we're already seeing the exact same narratives and growing divisions in play.

We’re not importing problems IMO, we’re importing people, and because we’re not investing in people, we’re going to continue to have the same problems exacerbated by the lack of investment in people.

Instead, since the 80’s even, like many other European countries whose politicians have invested in their own National vanity projects, Irish politicians haven’t been any different. We received considerable investment from Europe in the form of grants to improve our infrastructure since joining the EU, and we frittered it away on fur coats instead of investing in improving urban and rural development, so we ended up like every other country in Europe with densely populated urban areas in the capital cities which caused no end of problems with people practically living on top of each other while the rest of the country in terms of rural development received nothing. That’s why we see the problems we do in countries like Germany, Sweden, France and the UK -


Sharia Law Muslim ‘No-Go’ Zones


Immigration isn’t actually the real issue, lack of preparation is the real issue, due to lack of investment in existing infrastructure. We received an €85Bn bailout package from the EU after the 2008 crash and we frittered that away too, and we’re well on course to be back to 80’s levels of taxation, while immigration is only going to increase, meaning even less resources to be able to tackle existing problems. Holing people up in detention centres is only delaying the inevitable first generation immigrants from integrating into and contributing to Irish society. The figure of 40% of immigrants unemployed isn’t actually unusual or unsurprising when they’re not permitted to contribute to the economy but are instead babysat by the State and disincentivised from integrating and providing for themselves and their families.

The issue as far as I see it isn’t multiculturalism, we are already multicultural in the sense that different communities have always existed in any society, and society has always favoured the dominant demographic. It still does, and it still will, no matter how many immigrants come to this country in the future. Trying to stop them is wishful thinking, but what we can do is address the issues we have now, so that we can accommodate more people in the future, regardless of whether they are born here or whether they immigrate from elsewhere. I certainly wouldn’t be holding my breath that we’ll be importing scientists or highly qualified medical professionals any time soon as they’re paid poorly by comparison to other countries in any case. That’s why the brightest minds we produce here already don’t stay here - because there’s nothing here for them. The Government doesn’t value them enough to invest in them. Instead they invest in this decades vanity project that is the Children’s hospital, which by the time it’s completed will have cost the Exchequer five times it’s estimated initial cost.

Kivaro wrote: »

You can imagine the draw that Ireland has now become with these types of changes that are pushed through by progressive politicians and judges. Is there a benefit to Ireland with this type of multiculturalism? I don't see it, but there is a huge financial and social cost.

That’s hardly anything new?


60,000 people claiming social welfare abroad


Over €12.8m in child benefit payments made to kids living outside Ireland


Completely unrelated to multiculturalism btw.

Marcos

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Yes, it won't be the utter nutters in the Freedom or National parties that make serious inroads here.
IMO, it'll be an established party eventually, possibly FF (I can't see any other big party in the frame at all) with a rolback of open doors policy and hopefully taking on some of the excellent suggestions in this thread alone!

Well FF are heading into oblivion at the moment, with Varadkar leading them around by the nose just so Michéal can play at being Taoiseach. They seem to be done in Dublin bar Jack Chambers seat in Castleknock. So they'll have nothing left to lose, but we'll see. I think it'd take a new leader to bring them in a new direction though.

The collection of 'left' parties (SF/Green/SD/Lab/PBP-Sol) will never, ever engage in lucid, logical, rational conversations about this. Never.

You can add all the quangos who currently hoover up all that sweet taxpayers money annually to defeat racism. So, if racism and it's associated problems went away tomorrow where would their money come from?

We can all hope something akin to NP or IFP but with rational 'sounding' leadership and policies and a charasmatic leader doesn't take foothold because that will get a very big foothold with what is coming up.

Well whoever it is will be pilloried on all sides by the entire political establishment, the woke brigade, quango queens etc. Think of how the papers, Newstalk and RTE continually go overboard on slagging Sinn Féin and how that has had the opposite effect.

Wibbs

One eyed Jack wrote: »

We’re not importing problems IMO, we’re importing people, and because we’re not investing in people, we’re going to continue to have the same problems exacerbated by the lack of investment in people.

And as you point out politicians have done bugger all and not just here and all the other issues with different demographics having different outcomes and again throughout the multicultural west we see the same patterns every single time. Which also strongly indicates it's not just investment in people, nor integration particularly that's the entirety of the problems with this politic. East Asians don't particularly integrate nor get any more investment by societies and yet don't have the same problems as other demographics. It's not "race" either as Indians and Pakistani demographics show similar divergences. Same "race", same overarching native culture, same focus of racism where present. That's also assuming people want to integrate, want investment.

So again why import people and problems that have proven intractable and add to existing problems in existing societies? It makes no sense. We don't need extra people. We certainly don't need tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands and more that some politicians here have suggested we need.

One eyed Jack

Wibbs wrote: »

East Asians don't particularly integrate nor get any more investment by societies and yet don't have the same problems as other demographics. It's not "race" either as Indians and Pakistani demographics show similar divergences. Same "race", same overarching native culture, same focus of racism where present. That's also assuming people want to integrate, want investment.

Ahh they do, they’re just not as visible, and their communities criminal element is far more organised, literally -

Caution: you are about to enter gangland Britain

Wibbs wrote: »

So again why import people and problems that have proven intractable and add to existing problems in existing societies? It makes no sense. We don't need extra people. We certainly don't need tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands and more that some politicians here have suggested we need.

We don’t need them, but we’re getting them whether we like it or not, one way or the other. The question really then becomes how do we prepare for that rather than how do we deal with them when they get here in the hope that they’ll have integrated into society by the time they’re in their second or third generation and there are only a tiny minority of any demographic have any interest in integration. The melting pot idea in the US was pretty much as mythical as the sentiment expressed on the white elephant gifted to them by the French, while Canada appears to have done much better in terms of social integration of its various communities because they were better prepared with a more innovative approach of giving immigrants the benefit of the doubt that they were willing to contribute to society -


The Long-Term Economic Benefits of Welcoming Immigrants and Refugees

Canadian Immigrant Integration Program


That’s not to say Canada is some idealistic Utopia, you couldn’t pay me to live there, but their innovative approach has produced better long-term results than their neighbours to the south. It’s certainly a better approach than the Orange Idiots idea of building a wall to protect their borders. Immigrants would have simply gone around -

The reunification of Germany

McHardcore

McHardcore wrote: »

This is a terrible frame of mind. You need to enter the subject with an open view, look at the evidence, and draw your conclusion then

Strangely enough, I feel that's exactly the opposite of what you did previously. Odd that.

Look back on your post. You gave a blanket dismissal of States and "organisations" reports on migration as there was a "inherent bias in what they report" and "a direct bias to present immigration as being a net benefit, to justify the agendas at play.":

Sure I did... but then, there tends to be the assumption that people won't take such statements as an absolute. And I did provide some links relating to what I said... which you've just flown by.

You go on then to tell us how you pulled these State and "organisations" reports to back up your own statements:

Nope. I went on to say that when queried, I found links to back up what I stated. You've an awful habit of twisting comments.

A case of having your cake and eating it too?
If you feel that your State and "organisations" reports are correct, but everyones elses are wrong, you need to clearly identify why the other persons report is wrong. Vague blanket dismissals of "inherent bias" against everyone else's reports is a weak argument and undermines the reports that you have linked to yourself.

Gibbligook. Now you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

You broadened it yourself: Along with describing State and "organisations" as an unreliable source of information, you said education was only "an example" Again, have a read of your quote:

Read and misunderstood, since you've applied it to situations beyond the original posting.

is irrelevant to the argument.

I get the feeling that you don't know what the argument is, or rather you like to shift the goalposts.

Edit: I'm curious why you sought to engage with me rather than with Biko, since he's prominent on theSweden thread, whereas I just popped up a single piece of research on the subject. Why not deal with the person who knows most about it?

Wibbs

One eyed Jack wrote: »

We don’t need them, but we’re getting them whether we like it or not, one way or the other.

Why? We've enough and enough problems already thanks very much. EU citizens can come here, that's not an issue. Legal immigration through the proper channels is not an issue either.

Unless the government reinstates the birth passport tourism loophole against the wishes of the Irish people that door is closed. Unless the government double down on importing more chancers and economic migrants that door is closed too. And I'll bet if any government does this they'll lose votes over it.

As for the existing problem demographics we're sadly stuck with them and worse it will get for a time as both "White flight" and "Black flight"(those Black folks who want to get on) will concentrate the problems. Just like everywhere else. And just like everywhere else we won't do anything any differently and Ireland will have the same problems of this busted flush of a politic and social experiment just like everywhere else.

while Canada appears to have done much better in terms of social integration of its various communities because they were better prepared with a more innovative approach of giving immigrants the benefit of the doubt that they were willing to contribute to society

Canada is an ex colonial state born and reliant upon migration. They are not the same as Ireland or any other European nation. Their experiences and reasons for importing people are very different.

One eyed Jack

Wibbs wrote: »

Why? We've enough and enough problems already thanks very much. EU citizens can come here, that's not an issue. Legal immigration through the proper channels is not an issue either.

Unless the government reinstates the birth passport tourism loophole against the wishes of the Irish people that door is closed. Unless the government double down on importing more chancers and economic migrants that door is closed too. And I'll bet if any government does this they'll lose votes over it.

As for the existing problem demographics we're sadly stuck with them and worse it will get for a time as both "White flight" and "Black flight"(those Black folks who want to get on) will concentrate the problems. Just like everywhere else. And just like everywhere else we won't do anything any differently and Ireland will have the same problems of this busted flush of a politic and social experiment just like everywhere else.

Because rightly or wrongly, we’re seen as a prosperous economy internationally, and people want a piece of it. I can’t see us implementing the birth passport loophole again (that would require either Labour or Sinn Fein being given the opportunity to get into Government again and I can’t see that happening).

I don’t have an issue with existing demographics, because multiculturalism to me doesn’t mean assimilation, it means a multi-cultural society, acknowledging that the vast majority of people in any given demographic have no interest in integration between separate demographics, but are still entitled to the same rights and held to the same standards as everyone else in society.

Tackling the existing problems within the demographics we have already is not a compelling reason enough IMO to prohibit or limit immigration as though it is assumed people are only coming here to add to existing problems rather than contribute to Irish society and make the most of the opportunities that living in Irish society offers.

Wibbs wrote: »

Canada is an ex colonial state born and reliant upon migration. They are not the same as Ireland or any other European nation. Their experiences and reasons for importing people are very different.

For sure yeah, but the point I was making is their preparation strategy they implemented since the 70’s, as opposed to the US or European approach of ring fencing immigrants within their own ghettos or communities and leaving them to fend for themselves. East Asians either aren’t interested in entering Europe in any great numbers, they’re more interested in immigrating to countries like Australia, where the ‘native’ Australians are getting more and more angsty and vocal in their objections to immigration -

Asian immigrants altering Aussie suburbs (article with a positive spin on Chinese immigration)

Why Has Australia Fallen Out of Love With Immigration? (article which is more a reflection of the reality of the ‘natives’ attitudes to immigrants) -


According to the 2016 census, more than one in four Australians were born overseas, compared to 13.7 percent of the population in the United States and 14 percent in Britain. And six out of the top 10 source countries are now in Asia, with immigrants from China (509,558 people) and India (455,385) leading the way.
Many Australians say it is time for these trends to end. In one recent poll, more than two-thirds said their country no longer needed more people. As recently as 2010, a majority of Australians disagreed with that statement.

PearseCork92

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Because rightly or wrongly, we’re seen as a prosperous economy internationally, and people want a piece of it. I can’t see us implementing the birth passport loophole again (that would require either Labour or Sinn Fein being given the opportunity to get into Government again and I can’t see that happening).

This looks like it's being given government support, so it will ultimately FF / FG and Greens carrying the water on this.

One eyed Jack

PearseCork92 wrote: »

This looks like it's being given government support, so it will ultimately FF / FG and Greens carrying the water on this.

****e, I’d forgotten the Greens even existed :pac:

Surprised to hear FF/FG would be supportive of the idea though, I thought it might be a bridge too far even for their virtue signalling.

Biafranlivemat

Tell me how wrote: »

The very simple answer is the benefits outweigh the negatives.

How would you know of the benefits?

Biafranlivemat

Tell me how wrote: »

I wouldn't simply go by this thread or others on boards as to the view of wider society. Peter Casey becoming President didn't actually happen in the real world. Thankfully other threads which..... shall I say, end up with a largely singular view, aren't necessarily evident of the wider societal view on certain topics either.

As for benefits, and before I list some, it is interesting that you want to exclude exoticism and charity. I take it this means you recognize that there are benefits within interactions between cultures. I noted when I dropped in to this thread a few days ago also that someone was pointing out the success of asians in various locations while stating that africans were less successful. More of a tacit acceptance of multiculturalism while still seeking to insist it doesn't work.

Some benefits;
Variety in cuisine, arts, music, religion. (sorry not leaving out just because you want to exclude them)
Availability of many skilled people particularly in medical fields.
Exposure to people from different cultures which encourages people to then travel to those places for short or longer term stays.
Evidence that Ireland is a compassionate society willing to offer support and a home to those in need.
A continuation of our own cultural historic heritage of being an Island of a thousand welcomes.
Interaction between people leading to collaboration facilitating the opening of business and education opportunities for Irish people and businesses.
Interaction between cultures leads to greater understanding of the beliefs, practices, behaviors of people outside of just those who you grew up with.
Diversity within the workplace strengthens a businesses hand in targeting other markets.
Varied participants at a population level can help foster bonds and relationships at a national level leading to less argumentative diplomatic relationships.
It is merely a continuation of the way society has evolved to this point, and while you might say that was actually through violence and destruction, that violence and destruction has lessened as a consequence of the realisation that as people intermingle between cultures, there is more that unites than divides.
The solution to areas of continued conflict, such as in Israel at the moment will not come about through segregation and isolation but through a realisation that these cultures need to find ways to live together.
Exposure and participation in various religious, cultural or arts activities can be enjoyable as well as being informative.
Stronger community ties lead to a safer world.
Variety is the spice of life. Many people take fulfillment and indeed meaning and purpose in their lives through the study or creation of music, art, poetry, literature etc. Being able to select from additional cultures only widens the opportunity to do so.

"The solution to areas of continued conflict, such as in Israel at the moment will not come about through segregation and isolation but through a realisation that these cultures need to find ways to live together"


If Israel had open borders, the country would be destroyed.
What would happen to the millions of Jews living there...probably, something not very nice.

Yellow_Fern

McHardcore wrote: »

To quote D. Boateng et al. who looked at the relationship between crime and immigration in a number of European countries, including Sweden and Ireland:
"The results indicated a null relationship between immigration and crime, suggesting that immigration is unrelated to all the three types of crimes assessed. Based on these results, it is recommended that immigration-related policies will be based on fact and evidence, and not on sentiments and perceptions."

On your point:


Look back on your post. You gave a blanket dismissal of States and "organisations" reports on migration as there was a "inherent bias in what they report" and "a direct bias to present immigration as being a net benefit, to justify the agendas at play.":



You go on then to tell us how you pulled these State and "organisations" reports to back up your own statements:

You can't cite that study for evidence. It refers to people who arrived in Swden in the 1980s. Totally irrelvant to the discussion about recent migration.

McHardcore wrote: »

If anyone else needs more convincing that there is no or mixed link between crime and immigration in Sweden after reading this post, here are some additional research findings:

Beckley et al. criticised previous reports that did not take into account population's employment, education level and age, all of which affect level of crime. In general, research that takes these factors into account does not support the idea that there is a link between immigration and crime (The Routledge Handbook on Crime and International Migration. Routledge. p. 42.).

If Swedish crime is concentrated in certain employment, education and sex groupings what is so wrong with filtering out these demographics before they arrive in Sweden? To be honest I am not so familar with Sweden but I am familar with Germany and the liklihood of recent Afgan and Syrian migrants in Germany commiting crime is massively higher than the broader population. Hardly a surprise they grew up in a warzone.

Kivaro

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

You can't cite that study for evidence. It refers to people who arrived in Swden in the 1980s. Totally irrelvant to the discussion about recent migration.

Some people will post skewed and author-biased reports on how all immigration is great for us in Ireland and in Europe. A certain level of immigration has worked well due to those groups integrating into the local communities and becoming part of the workforce. But we can see with our own eyes that this is not the case for all migrants. Just look at last week's court verdict when a black gang attacked and stabbed a white teen in Cork and racially abused him in the process, and of course the black "protesters" yesterday screaming racist abuse at innocent white people in Dublin who had zero involvement in the shooting of a black criminal.

If that particular group had average or high employment numbers, then we could hope that the situation would improve, but the truth is the majority of them are on welfare and while that continues, the racial attacks on white people in Ireland will only get worse. It will get worse, but seldom accurately reported by Irish media outlets, where any mainstream media follow-up is almost a blame game on the victims i.e. whites are not doing enough for the blacks in the country. It's a shame that we (collectively) have allowed the so-called "progressives" of this country, under the guise of making us more diverse, have put us on a path of perpetual racial strife for the foreseeable future. It is our children and our children's children who will suffer the most from this failed social experiment.

One eyed Jack

Kivaro wrote: »

It's a shame that we (collectively) have allowed the so-called "progressives" of this country, under the guise of making us more diverse, have put us on a path of perpetual racial strife for the foreseeable future. It is our children and our children's children who will suffer the most from this failed social experiment.

“Progressives” haven’t put us on any path, simply because they don’t have that kind of power, they’re a tiny minority of upstarts on social media and nothing more, easily ignored. ‘Racial strife’ me hole, you’re trying desperately to make out that anti-social behaviour is a race issue, and it’s not. Your proclamations are no different to Rory O’ Neill suggesting Ireland is a hotbed of homophobia because he had a milk carton thrown at him. It’s just daft.

I haven’t suffered, my child hasn’t suffered as a result of immigration, because we don’t live in a neighbourhood where anti-social behaviour is common, only a minority of people do, and that’s been the failure of a whole slew of policy decisions over decades, as opposed to any new policies that’ll be dreamed up to address immigration and their integration into Irish society. I can think of far worse people I wouldn’t want to have as neighbours.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

“Progressives” haven’t put us on any path, simply because they don’t have that kind of power, they’re a tiny minority of upstarts on social media and nothing more, easily ignored.

Yup. They're easily ignored if you want to ignore them. On the other hand, others are influenced by their opinions, which leads to influence over policy. Politicians who are pretty much constantly hooked into twitter or other social media, just as many administrators of support organisations will do the same. Many of whom will be encouraged by the articles or one sided arguments that present some kind of multicultural utopia.

I wouldn't downplay the potential influence of "progressives" because we have seen just how effective such ideas (feminism, in particular) have been throughout the last few decades, in many countries. Little support from the public, but the ideas still manage to gain support within political groups or public organisations, who in turn, implement those ideas for the good of everyone.

The truth is that 'the majority' has little direct control over what happens, beyond not voting in a political party next term.

‘Racial strife’ me hole, you’re trying desperately to make out that anti-social behaviour is a race issue, and it’s not. Your proclamations are no different to Rory O’ Neill suggesting Ireland is a hotbed of homophobia because he had a milk carton thrown at him. It’s just daft.

It's not directly a racial issue. It's economics. It's about those "left behind" in one way or another. The aspect of race comes into play with migrants because many enter Ireland on the lower economic grade, and have little momentum to improve their social/economic mobility. And it's impractical/naive to believe that Ireland can provide the services/supports to 'uplift' every migrant to be comparable with the 'average' Irish person.

The issue with anti-social behavior, typically, relates to that general populations standard of living, which is tied to the economics of their particular region. It's also connected to a host of social changes such as the removal of corporal punishment (without being replaced with anything more effective), and the elevation of children/teens to being innocent until they're 18.

So.. I'd agree it's not about race.... but it does factor into things since there is a correlation between certain racial/cultural groups ending up at the bottom, and therefore, more likely, to engage in anti-social behavior. (Oh, I'd include Irish and/or Travellers in that)

Vieira82

I'm an immigrant in this country now for a little more than 9 years and a month...

I got hired by a multinational that went hiring in my homecountry.

With me I was working with Spanish, Brazilians, Portuguese, Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, French, Italians...

Almost immediately after arriving I started hearing about attacks on my colleagues.

Two of them a Brazilian and a Spanish after a night out on their way home got gangued up by 5 youngsters screaming at them to speak English. They tried to defend themselves, a fight ensued, Garda arrived and politely said "they can't do nothing".

Not even a month after arriving in this country one of my Brazilian colleagues was beaten, able to escape and chased into the companies building by 10 youths screaming at him to go back to his country. The fact his kind of brownish and has curly hair didn't factor it at all...

Already said here that the first thing I was told by the relocation agent, the elderly lady driving down Shandon Street in Cork that Shandon was really riddled with crime because of all the blacks.

The lady said this under her breath because she knew she was being racist saying that. I lived nearby for years on years, never I saw one issue with an African person, absolute zero. On the other hand with "native" Irish even a google search you can find cases of it over the last ten years.

Just out the door of my home in Blackpool a bunch of kids, calling a pregnant african lady pushing a troley a chimp and making monkey noises... they didn't learn that by themselves...

In March 2011 I lived in White Street, Cork. A Spanish guy was beaten with golf clubs, Garda everywhere, screams from them on the street, not one single shot fired because back then they didn't have the Armed Unit, they got the kids arrested... but surprisingly not one single of them got even a bruise or a punch... nothing... after almost killing a person... oh yeah... the kids where all Irish...

Because I'm blond with blue eyes I don't get any of this crap, only when I open my mouth and they notice I don't have an irish accent. There's certain people that whenever you are if you open your mouth and they notice your accent is not Irish, the very next question will be... "Where are you from?" Some even ask "what are you doing here?" Or keep asking, they need to know what a foreigner is doing in their country...

Vieira82

As for multiculturalism... multiculturalism has been a part of human society since forever. Racism and division between cultures is something born out of colonialism as a way to justify certain cultures taking over others...

Ireland has always... ALWAYS been a melting pot of cultures if you know your history you will know this. There isn't a traditional Irish gene, just a bunch of people that got together in this Island...

Before the Celts there where the Bronze Age movements which genetic studies and even a movie showed that there's a big percentage of genetics from the Basque Country in Ireland which makes perfect sense, again, melting pot of movements of people everywhere.

Then the Celts appeared and mingled with most populations, nothing indicates the Romans where in Ireland besides a few trading posts in the East which means if there where Roman trading in Ireland they also for sure mingled with the locals...

Christianity brought hermits from all over Europe to Ireland, because of it's percieved remoteness of a land outside of the crumbling Roman Empire, the same hapenned in what is now Sudan for example, strangely there's very similar archaeological evidence from the monasteries in Sudan and the ruined ones in Ireland from the same time frame...

The Vikings are known to have again melted into the local populations after an initial barbaric encounter they ended up understanding how much was to gain from trade instead of conquering...

From medieval times, ports like Galway became gigantic trading posts with people from all over the world traveliing and living in Ireland. There's plenty of evidence of various cultures and people from around Europe that settled in Ireland...

There's some evidence even Rabban Bar Sauma procured to travel to Ireland after meeting King Edward I of England but that didn't come into fruiton...

And the rest is known as mainstream Irish History, the Cromwell opression, the Irish Famine and so many episodes that lead to the Independence of the state. And during this time a number of English natives moved to Ireland too...

But no, Ireland is not an immaculate culture of Christians, just like so many other countries in the world your country is a result of a melting pot of cultures...

The funny part is this xenophobic fear of foreigners speaks more of the British values engraved in Irish Society than actual Irish Culture.

It is also a part of the economic decisions taken in Ireland, leading to inequality and a number of social changes in Ireland over the last 15 years amongst

This article dated from yesterday brilliantly sums this up:

https://unherd.com/2020/12/will-ireland-survive-the-woke-wave-2/

Vieira82

Vieira82 wrote: »

Because I'm blond with blue eyes I don't get any of this crap, only when I open my mouth and they notice I don't have an irish accent. There's certain people that whenever you are if you open your mouth and they notice your accent is not Irish, the very next question will be... "Where are you from?" Some even ask "what are you doing here?" Or keep asking, they need to know what a foreigner is doing in their country...

I've lived abroad for almost 14 years now, along with other stints abroad before that. I don't get this expectation that Ireland should be so different from other countries. I've spent time in both Africa and Asia where minor discrimination, and outright racism against white people is common. We know it exists. We expect it to happen. It's a known factor in deciding to live in a foreign country.

There will be locals who think you shouldn't be here. There will be people who think you're taking jobs that should be occupied by natives. There will be people who distrust you because you're culturally different. There will be people who consider you inferior because of your skin color, or some other nonsense.

That's part of living in a foreign country, especially one whose culture is so different. I love living in cultures which are so different than my own. There are so many positives.. but then, there are heaps of negatives too. I've been physically assaulted in both Asia, and Africa based on my skin color. Or assaulted because the association of white people is connected to wealth, even though, I wasn't wealthy at that time. It didn't matter. Because some people think this way... irrespective of the realities involved.

That is not to say that I consider the country or the entire people to be xenophobic. Even with China or Japan, which culturally tends to be historically xenophobic, both could be very welcoming depending on the circumstances.. and individually, people aren't that locked in step with the traditional cultural perspective on foreigners. Still, there is common day discrimination, and racism.. (far more than in Ireland)

You listed a range of assaults or expressions of racism. It happens. It will continue to happen. Some people are just unlucky, or they set themselves up for abuse, all the while knowing how to avoid being placed in that situation. There will always be some people who hate/distrust foreigners... that's pretty much a given, and anyone who thinks that will change is smoking some funny stuff.

It's also worth remembering that as "foreigners", we're judged by the behavior of past foreigners. In Oz, that meant the automatic association many had about Irish people being violent, and heavy drinkers. In China, it meant the range of foreigners who disrespected their cultural norms, and left behind pregnant Chinese women. That behavior leaves an impression, not just on those who are directly involved, but also on those who "hear" about it, which in turn, promotes the stereotypes. Which we are judged by... by association. For some people, that will be cause enough to hate that foreigner, irrespective of who they actually are.

Where are you originally from? I suspect you/we could easily find a range of assaults/problems in your country related to race. The point being that there is no "extra" hatred of foreigners beyond what already exists in other countries. No xenophobia that doesn't already exist in other relatively traditional (or going through the process of shedding it's traditional past) countries. Although, considering the frustrations many people I know have about immigrants in Ireland, I wouldn't be too surprised to see a rise in actual discrimination, and/or contempt towards certain migrant groups. As I said, the behavior of past migrants/foreigners will set the theme for judging the next batch.

Dyr

Vieira82 wrote: »

As for multiculturalism... multiculturalism has been a part of human society since forever. Racism and division between cultures is something born out of colonialism as a way to justify certain cultures taking over others...

It was handy that you started with this doozy so people didnt have to read any further

Vieira82

Bambi wrote: »

It was handy that you started with this doozy so people didnt have to read any further

you're welcome, glad you don't know nothing about History. But judging by the way you express yourself and your views that's not surprising at all

Do yourself a favor and go study history, pretty sure you got the money for it. Or if not just buy a few books on the subject matter. I'll gladly point towards a few. But if you wanna start something on colonialism I'd suggest Conquerors by Roger Crowley.

When you got any type of arguments to back up your points of views I'll be more than happy to debate it with you until then is just ad hominem hocus pocus...

JasonStatham

Vieira82 wrote: »

I'm an immigrant in this country now for a little more than 9 years and a month...

I got hired by a multinational that went hiring in my homecountry.

With me I was working with Spanish, Brazilians, Portuguese, Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, French, Italians...

Almost immediately after arriving I started hearing about attacks on my colleagues.

Two of them a Brazilian and a Spanish after a night out on their way home got gangued up by 5 youngsters screaming at them to speak English. They tried to defend themselves, a fight ensued, Garda arrived and politely said "they can't do nothing".

Not even a month after arriving in this country one of my Brazilian colleagues was beaten, able to escape and chased into the companies building by 10 youths screaming at him to go back to his country. The fact his kind of brownish and has curly hair didn't factor it at all...

Already said here that the first thing I was told by the relocation agent, the elderly lady driving down Shandon Street in Cork that Shandon was really riddled with crime because of all the blacks.

The lady said this under her breath because she knew she was being racist saying that. I lived nearby for years on years, never I saw one issue with an African person, absolute zero. On the other hand with "native" Irish even a google search you can find cases of it over the last ten years.

Just out the door of my home in Blackpool a bunch of kids, calling a pregnant african lady pushing a troley a chimp and making monkey noises... they didn't learn that by themselves...

In March 2011 I lived in White Street, Cork. A Spanish guy was beaten with golf clubs, Garda everywhere, screams from them on the street, not one single shot fired because back then they didn't have the Armed Unit, they got the kids arrested... but surprisingly not one single of them got even a bruise or a punch... nothing... after almost killing a person... oh yeah... the kids where all Irish...

Because I'm blond with blue eyes I don't get any of this crap, only when I open my mouth and they notice I don't have an irish accent. There's certain people that whenever you are if you open your mouth and they notice your accent is not Irish, the very next question will be... "Where are you from?" Some even ask "what are you doing here?" Or keep asking, they need to know what a foreigner is doing in their country...

Well Ireland's racist af. That's why there's a taboo in discussing race. Ireland's no utopia, I really don't understand why foreigners keep wanting to come here. We've terrible weather and a bunch of miserable whingers who would stab their fellow countrymen in the back. Honestly I'm surprised you have stayed so long haha.

Wibbs

Vieira82 wrote: »

As for multiculturalism... multiculturalism has been a part of human society since forever. Racism and division between cultures is something born out of colonialism as a way to justify certain cultures taking over others...

Multiculturalism on the back of colonisation, invasion and empire building has been a part of human society since forever and in damned near every case the natives did badly out of it and in the majority of cases caused division and racism as you note(though for the majority of European history racism was far less in play as the overwhelming majority of Europeans were White, with some Arab in Spain and Greece). Surely not something we should emulate?

Ireland has always... ALWAYS been a melting pot of cultures if you know your history you will know this. There isn't a traditional Irish gene, just a bunch of people that got together in this Island...

Before the Celts there where the Bronze Age movements which genetic studies and even a movie showed that there's a big percentage of genetics from the Basque Country in Ireland which makes perfect sense, again, melting pot of movements of people everywhere.

Actually the Basque link is now seen as old hat and incorrect, though oft repeated. It was based on a rough sketch of the haplogroup R1b which is commonly found at the edges of western Europe. When they look at the subclades Basques have quite a different type to the Irish. Basques are mostly Spanish/French with some isolated gene differences because of their isolation(and they're different to Basques who lived 4000 years ago).

As for knowing our history: The native Irish are almost entirely, well natives, farmers who came in during the Bronze and Iron ages overwhelming the earlier hunter gatherer peoples. We're not "celts". Even the idea of celts owes more to 19th century nationalist thinking than any historical reality. The Romans and the Greeks who knew of them at the time could barely make up their mind what or who or where the Keltoi were. Later mixes came from Vikings and English, both on the back of conquest. As for how much of an impact that mix was?

Professor Gianpiero Cavalleri, who helped to devise the study, told TheJournal.ie: “In terms of the genetic diversity for Irish people, there’s actually very little. And the diversity we do see is very subtle.”



So no, not such a "melting pot" at all.

Christianity brought hermits from all over Europe to Ireland, because of it's percieved remoteness of a land outside of the crumbling Roman Empire,

A) the western empire had already crumbled and the hermit traffic was very much going the other direction, with Irish missionaries to Britain and then Europe, getting as far as Italy, Spain, Kiev and the like. The "Land of Saints and Scholars" was imported culturally, but not by mass migrations of people and was very much an export market on that score. I can give you a long list of Irish missionaries into Europe, the list of Europeans that came here is tiny by comparison(and most would be Welsh, non Saxon English and Scots).

From medieval times, ports like Galway became gigantic trading posts with people from all over the world traveliing and living in Ireland. There's plenty of evidence of various cultures and people from around Europe that settled in Ireland...

Actually there isn't and outside of the plantations(hardly a recipe for peace and harmony) what movements did occur were absolutely tiny in number. French Huguenots were one of the largest and that was under 5000 people. There are Jews here from the late Medieval, but again in tiny numbers(they seemed to have fitted right in with the locals, with a Jewish major being elected to the office of Mayor in Cork in the 1600's IIRC. Something that would have been vanishingly rare in the rest of Europe).

But no, Ireland is not an immaculate culture of Christians, just like so many other countries in the world your country is a result of a melting pot of cultures...

Whatever about an "immaculate culture of Christians" Ireland is one of most "native" nations in Europe and when it hasn't been in the case of English interference it didn't do the locals any good, nor many of the migrants and the Scots demographic are very close to us genetically, the same "race".

It is also a part of the economic decisions taken in Ireland, leading to inequality and a number of social changes in Ireland over the last 15 years amongst

This article dated from yesterday brilliantly sums this up:

https://unherd.com/2020/12/will-ireland-survive-the-woke-wave-2/

There's certainly much foof for thought in that and I would include as part and parcel of that "Californication" the importation of the busted flush of modern multiculturalism as a credo that must be believed.

Mike Murdock

Wibbs wrote: »

There's certainly much foof for thought in that and I would include as part and parcel of that "Californication" the importation of the busted flush of modern multiculturalism as a credo that must be believed.

Multiculturalism is not the problem.

Neo-Liberal Globalisation is.

Dyr

Vieira82 wrote: »

you're welcome, glad you don't know nothing about History. But judging by the way you express yourself and your views that's not surprising at all

Do yourself a favor and go study history, pretty sure you got the money for it. Or if not just buy a few books on the subject matter. I'll gladly point towards a few. But if you wanna start something on colonialism I'd suggest Conquerors by Roger Crowley.

When you got any type of arguments to back up your points of views I'll be more than happy to debate it with you until then is just ad hominem hocus pocus...

I don't you worry I have enough of a grasp of history to see through your nonsense. Human groups did not voluntarily embrace interculturalism, succesful groups took resources from less succesful groups wherever they could do so. Celts, Vikings, Romans, Normans, French, British, German. What you call colonialism was simply the norm for humans across the globe for most of history Vae Victis.

We moved away from the concept of the right to resources by conquest with the Geneva Convetion and now we live in the era of woe to the victorious rather than the conquered because success as a society means being expected to accept an influx from unsuccesful societies

I'll let Wibbs and the rest deal with the detail, they have the patience for nonsense

Wibbs

Mike Murdock wrote: »

Multiculturalism is not the problem.

Neo-Liberal Globalisation is.

The latter is certainly a problem, but long before globalisation multiculturalism of the modern type barely existed before. While there were a few Asian and Africans in Europe before the 20th century contrary to Hollywood casting directors of late their numbers were absolutely tiny for most of European history. We were all the same "race" and still bating seven shades of poo out of each other when we got the chance. And when something like multiculturalism existed it worked because the native culture was imperial in nature and ironically far more right wing in attitude where deviations from the cultural norms was usually stamped on hard and citizenship for newcomers had to be earned. EG Rome and the Caliphate.

Dyr

Mike Murdock wrote: »

Multiculturalism is not the problem.

Neo-Liberal Globalisation is.

I know the left still tries to reassure itself otherwise but they're two sides of the same pancake.

Wibbs

Bambi wrote: »

I don't you worry I have enough of a grasp of history to see through your nonsense.

Well I'd not go so far as to say nonsense, more like oft repeated and believed historical half truths. Celts being a classic example. The Irish aren't nor were ever celts. Certainly not as a population. Even culturally an expert in the field can look at a "celtic" object found in a dig and be able to narrow down where in Europe it originally came from. Saying the Irish are/were celts is akin to saying the Irish are Italians just because they were Christian. The Basque/Irish connection another example. It was jumped upon a few years ago on the back of rough interpretations of genetic clades and repeated until it became a bar stool truth. Latterly the idea that Ireland was a genetic melting pot of peoples long before the Celtic Tiger* has gained some favour, but again the evidence shows this to be at best a half truth at most utterly wrong. A small bunch of islands like Orkney with a tiny population has more genetic diversity and evidence of migration than the whole country of Ireland.






*we're not Celts and we never had Tigers outside of zoos, which should have given us some food for thought about that daftness.

Vieira82

Vieira82 wrote: »

you're welcome, glad you don't know nothing about History. But judging by the way you express yourself and your views that's not surprising at all

Do yourself a favor and go study history, pretty sure you got the money for it. Or if not just buy a few books on the subject matter. I'll gladly point towards a few. But if you wanna start something on colonialism I'd suggest Conquerors by Roger Crowley.

When you got any type of arguments to back up your points of views I'll be more than happy to debate it with you until then is just ad hominem hocus pocus...

The funny thing is that, in spite, of your claims of extensive knowledge about history, you missed something vitally important. You assign modern (or rather successive) values, on eras that happened before those values became accepted.

Multiculturalism, as a modern concept, didn't exist in most of the eras you mentioned. Population density and the desire to retain ethnic/cultural strongholds ensured that there was very little inter-exchange of culture beyond the most superficial of exposure (or when conquered/enslaved whereupon exposure was brutally forced). The waves of cultural conquest throughout history had very little of tolerance for those of different cultures, seeking to dominate or replace those that existed after arrival. And when those cultures managed to coexist, they did so, hidden away, kept out of sight. Just look at what remains of Gaelic traditions after British rule.. or look at the evolution of ethnic enclaves throughout Europe as a result of modern migration (nope. No need to show the historical enclaves.. or how those enclaves managed to survive)

Honestly, your snide post to Bambi was pretty clueless. You listed a variety of examples of historical multiculturalism, but it's a view very much projected through rose tinted glasses, devoid of the balanced view a historian should have.

Kivaro

From my experiences living in multi-ethnic countries, you do not want the additional burden of racial strife along with the normal challenges in life. I have lived in cities and regional areas when, at times, racial tension permeated almost every aspect of day to day living. This tension begets mistrust, which further fuels the racial discord. Let me tell you it is a horrible tense situation when it happens, and I would not wish it on any country.

Unfortunately I see the beginnings of a similar situation in Ireland, a situation that was unnecessarily created in the rush to diversify us. This contrived mechanism to dramatically increase our population at all costs will indeed have a substantial cost; both culturally and financially. Will it be worth it is the big question that has to be answered at some stage?

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yup. They're easily ignored if you want to ignore them. On the other hand, others are influenced by their opinions, which leads to influence over policy. Politicians who are pretty much constantly hooked into twitter or other social media, just as many administrators of support organisations will do the same. Many of whom will be encouraged by the articles or one sided arguments that present some kind of multicultural utopia.

I wouldn't downplay the potential influence of "progressives" because we have seen just how effective such ideas (feminism, in particular) have been throughout the last few decades, in many countries. Little support from the public, but the ideas still manage to gain support within political groups or public organisations, who in turn, implement those ideas for the good of everyone.

The truth is that 'the majority' has little direct control over what happens, beyond not voting in a political party next term.

It’s not that I’m downplaying their influence, I just don’t see them as being as influential as some people imagine they are. For example it’s not politicians who make policy decisions, they’re often just the public face that takes all the credit for the reports produced by public servants who are influenced and involved with all sorts of forums and ‘stakeholders’, ie the lobby groups and organisations you mention.

I think that’s a fair and balanced view to say the majority of people have no direct control over what happens at national level at least, but people do have far more control over what happens in their own local communities. It’s also true to say that the vast majority of people have no interest in what happens either at local or national level as long as it doesn’t have any impact on their lives. Some of the greatest wastes of public funding have been (in no particular order, just off the top of my head) -

Direct provision
Regeneration
Government department decentralisation
Housing projects
Ghost estates

In terms of economics, neither feminists, progressives nor immigrants, are actually any threat to the public at large, nor for all the Government funding the various organisations receive to produce reports for Government departments, are feminists the worst offenders in terms of waste when it comes to the State getting value for money. It’s something that often occurs to me that the same people whom we’re speaking of don’t actually want a multicultural Utopia because bringing that about would kill the Golden goose that just keeps on giving! What they’re doing on social media like Twitter is the very definition of virtue signalling - signalling their virtues in the public domain, and politicians respond accordingly in the same arena. Both actors playing their part to perfection in putting on a facade of caring what the public think. It gives people a sense of ownership - the idea that they actually do have an influence on anything.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's not directly a racial issue. It's economics. It's about those "left behind" in one way or another. The aspect of race comes into play with migrants because many enter Ireland on the lower economic grade, and have little momentum to improve their social/economic mobility. And it's impractical/naive to believe that Ireland can provide the services/supports to 'uplift' every migrant to be comparable with the 'average' Irish person.

The issue with anti-social behavior, typically, relates to that general populations standard of living, which is tied to the economics of their particular region. It's also connected to a host of social changes such as the removal of corporal punishment (without being replaced with anything more effective), and the elevation of children/teens to being innocent until they're 18.

So.. I'd agree it's not about race.... but it does factor into things since there is a correlation between certain racial/cultural groups ending up at the bottom, and therefore, more likely, to engage in anti-social behavior. (Oh, I'd include Irish and/or Travellers in that)

There’s a correlation between race and social status if someone wants there to be one. There are many correlations can be made such as any particular demographics attitudes to education, attitudes to their place within society in terms of their perception of class, their attitudes towards their own people, their attitudes towards other people, and all these are contributing factors which influence social mobility so much as to say there are ‘certain’ racial/cultural groups who are at the bottom, and some who are at the top. You’ll be familiar I suppose with how Chinese children fare in Irish education, I suppose I’d include Eastern European children in that too - genuinely excel far and above Irish children when it comes to mathematics, but far below Irish children when it comes to the main language used in Irish schools. No amount of replacements for corporal punishment can address that discrepancy.

Migrants are already at average Irish levels because the vast majority of migrants are as well educated as Irish people, with the main barrier apart from their qualifications not being recognised in this country is the language barrier. The more well educated migrant population will gain employment in multinational organisations which are for the most part located in major urban areas, and then those migrants who aren’t able to secure employment with multinationals will typically be found working in lower class employment (and very few working in middle class employment like public services).

Then there are those migrants, and I get what Wibbs means by “importing an underclass”, with all the associated problems of their associating themselves with an underclass of Irish society which already exists here (their common understanding being opportunities for anti-social and criminal behaviour), and it’s only those people really, or that class of people, which need to be targeted as a whole, rather than assuming by default that migrants are entering the country to take advantage of our generous social welfare system, when the criminal element don’t need it, and the employable element don’t want it. I prefer to focus on the potential of the employable element than get bogged down in trying to change some people’s habits of a lifetime. I’ve no interest in breaking my balls at that craic, and in my experience the people who pretend they do care about those people whom they claim can’t fend for themselves (or those who are left behind as you say), are as much a drain on society as the criminal element, only for the fact that they’re legitimately funded by the various Government departments and the HSE, and they don’t actually want any kind of social progress or policy to interfere with their income.