What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

cgcsb

CruelCoin wrote: »

I'm all in favour of a points based system if that's what you're hinting at.
Something like whats in place in Australia and is (or will be)in the UK.

RTÉ seems to be convinced that direct provision is the Number 1 rights based issue in the country of this generation on everyone's lips, they don't seem to notice that this generation of Irish people are the first since independence in which the middle classes do not have the means to house themselves, and this situation deteriorates by the day. No mention of it at all though, we're all talking about how awful free food, shelter, security and education for the rest of the world is.

CruelCoin

cgcsb wrote: »

they don't seem to notice that this generation of Irish people are the first since independence in which the middle classes do not have the means to house themselves, and this situation deteriorates by the day.

People may not be able to afford a home, where they want to live.
But they certainly can afford a home, just not in premo-beachfront real estate.

In lieu of being able to build up, we have to build out, and that has it's obvious side effects.

Mike Murdock

CruelCoin wrote: »

People may not be able to afford a home, where they want to live.
But they certainly can afford a home, just not in premo-beachfront real estate.

In lieu of being able to build up, we have to build out, and that has it's obvious side effects.

If you mean a badly insulated, badly soundproofed, shoebox apartment then, sure, maybe.

cgcsb

CruelCoin wrote: »

People may not be able to afford a home, where they want to live.
But they certainly can afford a home, just not in premo-beachfront real estate.

Who can afford a home? the pre tax average salary is €49,000 (which few people under 30 earn), which gets you a mortgage of 171,500. Even if you could manage to save €30,000 yourself you'd have less than 200k, which get's you nothing in Ireland. Even outside Dublin where the average salary is lower that would not get you much of anything. Beach front, would you stop.

cgcsb

Mike Murdock wrote: »

If you mean a badly insulated, badly soundproofed, shoebox apartment then, sure, maybe.

He means this kind of thing, a one bedroom, no outside space with a bed that fills the whole bedroom.

https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/apartment-apartment-22-parkview-harolds-cross-dublin-6/2738695

A steal at only €190k.

WrenBoy

cgcsb wrote: »

He means this kind of thing, a one bedroom, no outside space with a bed that fills the whole bedroom.

https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/apartment-apartment-22-parkview-harolds-cross-dublin-6/2738695

A steal at only €190k.

Jesus, thats scandalous.
Im not a big fella but even I wouldn't have much room moving around in that, be whacking the elbows off everything.

Wibbs

CruelCoin wrote: »

I'm all in favour of a points based system if that's what you're hinting at.
Something like whats in place in Australia and is (or will be)in the UK.

Exactly and ditto, but we may hold our collective breath until we turn blue before our government brings one in. They can't even discuss the matter at the moment beyond decrying anyone who brings it up. It's verboten to suggest we are and have imported an underclass that are a set of fiscal and social negatives. No, too many in power are indeed hellbent on doubling down and importing more, because reasons. Reasons they can't expand on, beyond running the misguided charity angle

Scoondal

I like multi-culturialism. I've lost my job. But my Filipina wife is earning good money in the Irish "healthcare system". Some of us like it but some don't like it. Everyone can have an opinion.

Scoondal

Scoondal wrote: »

I like multi-culturialism. I've lost my job. But my Filipina wife is earning good money in the Irish "healthcare system". Some of us like it but some don't like it. Everyone can have an opinion.

You do realise you're simply talking about immigration, not multiculturalism. Your wife working here isn't a sign of multiculturalism. My working in China doesn't make China multicultural.

While we jump between the two terms a lot on the thread for discussion, they're not the same thing.

Scoondal

Scoondal wrote: »

I like multi-culturialism. I've lost my job. But my Filipina wife is earning good money in the Irish "healthcare system". Some of us like it but some don't like it. Everyone can have an opinion.

Doubt anyone would have an issue with someone working and contributing to the economy and society

MikeOxsgreen

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Doubt anyone would have an issue with someone working and contributing to the economy and society

From the perspective of immigration, I doubt anyone would. A migrant who contributes more than they're receiving or received from the State.. that is. (If they're contributing as a minimum wage, with often dips into welfare, and the need for government help for their family, then, they're not exactly contributing enough to balance their cost to the State)

However, I would point out that the thread is really about multiculturalism, and there are negatives to the lack of integration when it comes to certain national or cultural/religious groups. It's well documented that ethnic groups often can form enclaves, where their own culture become dominant, and the host culture receiving token acceptance. Even when that consists of people who contribute well economically, there are serious drawbacks, many of whom we are only starting to see emerge after a few decades of the multicultural experiment. This can be seen from the attitudes/behavior of either the original migrants themselves, or their children (as teens/young adults). Radicalisation is a serious issue with many of those migrants who came from Islamic backgrounds... even though they, themselves, or their parents could have been productive in their daily lives.

Let's not confuse immigration with multiculturalism. There are overlapping considerations, but the benefits of immigration don't cancel out the negatives of multiculturalism...

Scoondal

Deleted User wrote: »

You do realise you're simply talking about immigration, not multiculturalism. Your wife working here isn't a sign of multiculturalism. My working in China doesn't make China multicultural.

While we jump between the two terms a lot on the thread for discussion, they're not the same thing.

I don't understand your question.

I am Irish (Irish culture) and my wife is Filipina (Philippines culture) and my two children show signs of Irish and Filipino culture. I live in a multi-cultural house. When I engage with my community, I see multiculturalism.

I am not talking about immigration. I am talking about living in a family of two different cultures and seeing Irish society as being multi-cultural by looking at my neighbours.

Can you explain your post and expand and explain your opinion ?

Scoondal

The thread title does not refer to immigrants.

biko

Multiculturalism:
Polish people in Ireland shopping in Polish shops, going to Polish churches and eating at Polish restaurants. Hanging out with other Polish doing Polish things.

Also multiculturalism:
Chechen Muslim man kills and beheads French teacher for showing pictures of Muslim prophet.
French Arabs attacking French Jews.


Multiculturalism is a society that promotes segregation instead of assimilation.

Scoondal

Scoondal wrote: »

I don't understand your question.

I am Irish (Irish culture) and my wife is Filipina (Philippines culture) and my two children show signs of Irish and Filipino culture. I live in a multi-cultural house. When I engage with my community, I see multiculturalism.

Grand. You live in a multicultural environment. That's essentially a self-contained unit though, with relation to how your family interacts with both cultures.

How do you see multiculturalism extending beyond your internal family interactions? How has Filipino culture been added to the local culture for other Irish (and other ethnic/national groups) in your area?

And should your wife be adopting Irish culture, and integrating with the mainstream Irish way of living, then that's a good thing. The problem, though, is Filipinos are often already very westernized due to the influence of the US in their country, and the use of English as a main language (dialect notwithstanding). Most of the considerations that posters here have about multiculturalism relates to peoples who are from very different cultures (M.East and Africa).

I am not talking about immigration. I am talking about living in a family of two different cultures and seeing Irish society as being multi-cultural by looking at my neighbours.

Expand on what multiculturalism you're seeing in your neighbors then. Bear in mind though, this post is the most detail you've given so far about your perspective... your other posts were vague, and simple soundbites suggesting that multiculturalism was a good thing, without really showing what you considered multiculturalism to consist of.

Can you explain your post and expand and explain your opinion ?

Post #5370 pretty much covers it.

Modern multiculturalism encourages enclaves to be created where other cultural groups stick together, retaining their own culture, with limited integration of the host culture. Sure, there will be superficial signs of some integration, but when people retain their original culture, and most importantly, their values, then, that causes a divide to widen between groups, which tends to lead to friction.

CruelCoin

Deleted User wrote: »

You do realise you're simply talking about immigration, not multiculturalism. Your wife working here isn't a sign of multiculturalism. My working in China doesn't make China multicultural.

While we jump between the two terms a lot on the thread for discussion, they're not the same thing.

Don't you think that his filipino wife is applying some of her customs and traditions in the home?
Or do you think she comes home from work and plugs herself into her charging station in the wall, ready for the next shift?
There is more to culture and it's spread than just being in work. Presence is enough.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

However, I would point out that the thread is really about multiculturalism, and there are negatives to the lack of integration when it comes to certain national or cultural/religious groups. It's well documented that ethnic groups often can form enclaves, where their own culture become dominant, and the host culture receiving token acceptance. Even when that consists of people who contribute well economically, there are serious drawbacks, many of whom we are only starting to see emerge after a few decades of the multicultural experiment. This can be seen from the attitudes/behavior of either the original migrants themselves, or their children (as teens/young adults). Radicalisation is a serious issue with many of those migrants who came from Islamic backgrounds... even though they, themselves, or their parents could have been productive in their daily lives.

Let's not confuse immigration with multiculturalism. There are overlapping considerations, but the benefits of immigration don't cancel out the negatives of multiculturalism...

How seriously do you imagine anyone should take the issue of radicalisation given it’s really not common at all, and certainly not as common as the perpetuated negative stereotypes of people from other cultures? Let’s not confuse negative stereotypes of people from other cultures, with multiculturalism.

biko wrote: »

Multiculturalism:
Polish people in Ireland shopping in Polish shops, going to Polish churches and eating at Polish restaurants. Hanging out with other Polish doing Polish things.

Also multiculturalism:
Chechen Muslim man kills and beheads French teacher for showing pictures of Muslim prophet.
French Arabs attacking French Jews.


Multiculturalism is a society that promotes segregation instead of assimilation.

Your second example of multiculturalism isn’t an example of multiculturalism. It’s an example of extremism. That kind of behaviour cannot be associated with any particular culture or religion, unless one wishes to perpetuate negative stereotypes of people from other cultures. It would be like someone from another culture suggesting that Irish people are all spud munching, religious alcoholic wife beaters. In reality that’s just not true, any more than it’s true that Polish people are swan eaters or Chinese people eat dogs, rats and bats.

You were a lot closer with your first example as I’d know Polish, Brazilian, Filipino, Nigerian, Ugandan, people from different cultures basically who would all have one religious denomination in common, and the traditions and values which stem from that shared religion which form part of their values and cultures, particularly when it comes to the education of their children - they’re quite keen to have their children educated according to their religious affiliation. That’s multiculturalism, as opposed to assimilation. I’ve already stated I’m not in favour of assimilation in any case. People from different cultures have every right to maintain their own culture and values in Western society. That’s essentially what it means to live in a liberal democratic society as opposed to the societies from which these people come from.

Discussions about immigration (legal or illegal), mass immigration and all the rest of it are of course intertwined with multiculturalism, as are negative stereotypes, but it’s the negative stereotypes are the greatest contributing factor to an unwillingness for social integration, or discrimination or unemployment or friction in society which when taken to it’s extreme, is just that - extremism.

Mules

One eyed Jack wrote: »

How seriously do you imagine anyone should take the issue of radicalisation given it’s really not common at all, and certainly not as common as the perpetuated negative stereotypes of people from other cultures? Let’s not confuse negative stereotypes of people from other cultures, with multiculturalism.


Your second example of multiculturalism isn’t an example of multiculturalism. It’s an example of extremism. That kind of behaviour cannot be associated with any particular culture or religion, unless one wishes to perpetuate negative stereotypes of people from other cultures. It would be like someone from another culture suggesting that Irish people are all spud munching, religious alcoholic wife beaters. In reality that’s just not true, any more than it’s true that Polish people are swan eaters or Chinese people eat dogs, rats and bats.

You were a lot closer with your first example as I’d know Polish, Brazilian, Filipino, Nigerian, Ugandan, people from different cultures basically who would all have one religious denomination in common, and the traditions and values which stem from that shared religion which form part of their values and cultures, particularly when it comes to the education of their children - they’re quite keen to have their children educated according to their religious affiliation. That’s multiculturalism, as opposed to assimilation. I’ve already stated I’m not in favour of assimilation in any case. People from different cultures have every right to maintain their own culture and values in Western society. That’s essentially what it means to live in a liberal democratic society as opposed to the societies from which these people come from.

Discussions about immigration (legal or illegal), mass immigration and all the rest of it are of course intertwined with multiculturalism, as are negative stereotypes, but it’s the negative stereotypes are the greatest contributing factor to an unwillingness for social integration, or discrimination or unemployment or friction in society which when taken to it’s extreme, is just that - extremism.

France is a liberal democracy but has a policy of integration rather than multiculturalism. That hasn't worked out for them either though, at least in some cases

One eyed Jack

Mules wrote: »

France is a liberal democracy but has a policy of integration rather than multiculturalism. That hasn't worked out for them either though, at least in some cases

Ideas of a liberal democracy are all well and good until they are actually tested by introducing different ideas from those which are considered mainstream. That’s when the flaws in shìtty or half arsed attempts at integration policies really begin to show up, and yes, France is a good example of it, as is Sweden, Germany, the UK and indeed Ireland. It’s really not working out very well at all for anyone, because like the US - the vast majority of people want nothing to do with people from other cultures which are different from their own. It’s still multiculturalism, just not as some people would like it - the idea that migrants should have to forego their own culture and values and assimilate into society in the way some people would prefer according to those people’s own culture and values.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

How seriously do you imagine anyone should take the issue of radicalisation given it’s really not common at all, and certainly not as common as the perpetuated negative stereotypes of people from other cultures? Let’s not confuse negative stereotypes of people from other cultures, with multiculturalism.

Except.. it's increasing. It's happening more often, and considering the support given by the rich Saudis or others to indoctrinate towards the more radical path, it's likely to increase at a greater pace as time goes by.

And it is something that happens ten times a year resulting in deaths, then it should be taken seriously... in combination with the other problems that come from the same cultural/religious groups.

The majority of Muslims are not crazy loons. Yet.

CruelCoin

CruelCoin wrote: »

Don't you think that his filipino wife is applying some of her customs and traditions in the home?
Or do you think she comes home from work and plugs herself into her charging station in the wall, ready for the next shift?
There is more to culture and it's spread than just being in work. Presence is enough.

Well thanks for deflecting and not answering/responding to any of my questions.

"There is more to culture and it's spread than just being in work" - Not even remotely similar to what I wrote or referred to.

CruelCoin

Deleted User wrote: »

Well thanks for deflecting and not answering/responding to any of my questions.

"There is more to culture and it's spread than just being in work" - Not even remotely similar to what I wrote or referred to.

You said this didn't you?

"Your wife working here isn't a sign of multiculturalism. My working in China doesn't make China multicultural."

What are you talking about if not work.

WrenBoy

CruelCoin wrote: »

"Integration" to me just sounds like a multirace homogenous blob.

All the colours of the rainbow, but it all tastes like vanilla.

Ironically enough multicultural societies to me sound like grey homogenous blobs. If every culture is just a mix of all the cultures then there is no real difference between the cultures of the world as they are all just a mix of every culture. Work that one out :pac:

CruelCoin

biko wrote: »

Multiculturalism:
Polish people in Ireland shopping in Polish shops, going to Polish churches and eating at Polish restaurants. Hanging out with other Polish doing Polish things.

Also multiculturalism:
Chechen Muslim man kills and beheads French teacher for showing pictures of Muslim prophet.
French Arabs attacking French Jews.


Multiculturalism is a society that promotes segregation instead of assimilation.

Assimilation and integration to me just sounds like a multirace homogenous blob. All the colours of the rainbow, but it all tastes like vanilla.

I'm not sure why people talk like that's the desired outcome, or as if it's unexpected that people group together by identity.

Did people think we'd be part of a body like the EU, grant people free movement, and that what? They'd just drop their culture?
People want the benefits of free travel while being surprised at the obvious consequences. shocked pikachu face

CruelCoin

WrenBoy wrote: »

Ironically enough multicultural societies to me sound like grey homogenous blobs. If every culture is just a mix of all the cultures then there is no real difference between the cultures of the world as they are all just a mix of every culture. Work that one out :pac:

South Park reckons we'll all be brown eventually, and speaking some English/Spanish/Chinese hybrid language.
They're not wrong either I think. Have a habit of being a bit clairvoyant, like the Simpsons lads.

mcsean2163

I think it's worked out really well for Ireland. It was an awful ****hole in nineties, now people like Ireland again.

Cordell

Do you think Ireland is better today because of multiculturalism, or that it has multiculturalism because its better today?

Arthur Daley

WrenBoy wrote: »

Ironically enough multicultural societies to me sound like grey homogenous blobs. If every culture is just a mix of all the cultures then there is no real difference between the cultures of the world as they are all just a mix of every culture. Work that one out :pac:

Triggers broom. Trigger is blissfully happy his broom has had 7 handles and 10 heads over the years but to him it's the same faithful trusty broom. This is the thinking in the offices of RTE and the Irish Times.

CruelCoin

Cordell wrote: »

Do you think Ireland is better today because of multiculturalism, or that it has multiculturalism because its better today?

I don't think it makes any country better or worse in any real sense.
****e people abound in every race and culture.

We have it because papa EU told us to have it.
I don't think we'd have anything like what we have right now if we hadn't been told to allow it.

Wibbs

CruelCoin wrote: »

South Park reckons we'll all be brown eventually, and speaking some English/Spanish/Chinese hybrid language.
They're not wrong either I think. Have a habit of being a bit clairvoyant, like the Simpsons lads.

Highly unlikely as people overwhelmingly tend to have kids with those from a similar background including ethnicity. We see this in colonial nations like Brazil where there are centuries of different ethnicities living together and yet those who look "White" are genetically mostly European, those who look "Black" are genetically mostly African and so on. Same goes for the rest of the world throughout human history. There is mixing within broad populations like European, Asian, African and some mixing on the fringes, but the basic populations remain, even in geographic and cultural crossroads and heavily trafficked routes like the Silk Road and the Middle East. Plus going Brown eventually would be a complete disaster for genetic and cultural diversity.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ideas of a liberal democracy are all well and good until they are actually tested by introducing different ideas from those which are considered mainstream. That’s when the flaws in shìtty or half arsed attempts at integration policies really begin to show up, and yes, France is a good example of it, as is Sweden, Germany, the UK and indeed Ireland. It’s really not working out very well at all for anyone, because like the US - the vast majority of people want nothing to do with people from other cultures which are different from their own. It’s still multiculturalism, just not as some people would like it - the idea that migrants should have to forego their own culture and values and assimilate into society in the way some people would prefer according to those people’s own culture and values.

So you're admitting it doesn't work? That there are no examples where it does? That human nature drives people to want to be around "their own" when numbers allow? Fair enough.

And yes I am very much a culturalist. Some cultures are demonstrably better than others on a few metrics and western European liberal democracies are right at the top of the tree. I don't want inferior cultures and cultural practices coming here and screwing that up. It was hard won.

Cordell wrote: »

Do you think Ireland is better today because of multiculturalism, or that it has multiculturalism because its better today?

Indeed. Ireland was progressing very quickly between the mid 80's and 90's. There was a sea change in attitudes on many fronts, the economy was coming out of the doldrums and was growing like mad(literally in some ways) by the mid 90's. It had feck all to do with "multiculturalism" either. When we were dirt poor, you had feck all coming here and those that did, actual asylum seekers and the like were coming because even doldrums Ireland was a safer bet than where they had come from(I personally knew two such families). The economic migrant chancers came after bolstered by the birthright citizenship loophole.