What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

1800_Ladladlad

Hunky Monster wrote: »

I lived in a very “diverse” part of London for years. To describe it as a hell hole would be generous. It’s clear it hasn’t worked over there and I don’t want to see Ireland make the same mistakes. I’m willing to bet most of the people who love the idea of diversity haven’t been anywhere except Lanzarote in their lives.

Experience it first hand and you will 100% reject the idea.

Take a weekend break to Paris and tell me how it’s a better place with “diversity”.

I lived in Southwark and Croydon, London absolutely hated it. Birmingham was a sh*thole too.

DelaneyIn

ChikiChiki wrote: »

It's fantastic when people from new cultures are integrating into the community and making an effort. Likewise the community needs to make them feel welcome.

However where there is no integration it can only be described as a disaster is waiting. I think Direct Provision is going to build a huge amount of resentment towards Ireland from the people trapped under them living conditions and that will be very harmful 15/20 years down the line.

The vast majority of people in direct provision have been refused asylum and are in the appeals process.

They should be deported immediately. Not eventually given leave to remain, live here on welfare and be resentful. Deport and be done with them.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

I lived in Southwark and Croydon, London absolutely hated it. Birmingham was a sh*thole too.

Streatham. Between Brixton and Tooting.

So diverse.

snotboogie

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Have we? And even if we did its too heavy a price to pay in my opinion

Demonstrably so. Whats your preferred measure of wealth?

If you want to go back to dancing at the crossroads you are going to have to suck up the poverty, lack of opportunity and mass emigration that comes with being an isolated small country.

Arthur Daley

Isn't it sad that whole swathes of Irish and lots of other nationalities it seems only become employable once they move to the other side of the world.

ExMachina1000

snotboogie wrote: »

Demonstrably so. Whats your preferred measure of wealth?

If you want to go back to dancing at the crossroads you are going to have to suck up the poverty, lack of opportunity and mass emigration that comes with being an isolated small country.

Migration quotas. Points based system designed to only allow people in who have skills that are in short supply.

Job done. No need to go "dancing at the crossroads " or any other hysterics.

snotboogie

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Migration quotas. Points based system designed to only allow people in who have skills that are in short supply.

Job done. No need to go "dancing at the crossroads " or any other hysterics.

Leaving the EU is absolutely bananas, especially when the reasoning behind it is migrant quotas. What issues are EU migrants causing in Ireland? All the numbers show that immigration from the EU to Ireland is a massive net positive. Thats all besides the point that Ireland is 100% set up as an exporting nation and an entry point for US companies to the EU. Leaving the EU would obliterate our economy.

ArchXStanton

I favor planned immigration along the lines of skilled/educated workforces, who have a certain amount of financial reserves to support themselves. I do favor multiculturalism that arises from them.. And I'm speaking as an expat who has lived over a decade abroad... I know what it's like to be a minority.

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I've lived in multicultural places and one thing that always struck me and was a breath of fresh air on coming home was the friendliness of people, even walking down my hometown getting a hello off people or a salute from someone driving by.

I've also lived in many areas which were multicultural... and I think it's the sweeping clumping of them all together as if it's always the same, that's part of the problem.

The issue is simple economics. Immigrants who get good work, get paid well, have a nice house, good school for their kids, etc, will lead pretty productive lifestyles and be happy about it. Crime will be generally low, because most of them don't need it, and still remember the hard times before arriving. The next generation though, might (might) be caught between cultures, feeling that they belong to neither, and in spite of their good backgrounds, be drawn to ally with the culture/country left behind, or reject their host country completely, turning antisocial.

The real issue though, is not about those who do well after immigrating, or even those who are from the next generations. Even with typically larger families, the numbers aren't really an issue, since their parents can bail them out of trouble, or are educated/intelligent enough to push their kids a particular direction for life.

The problem is with those who arrive and don't have the education/skills to compete effectively in a first world nation. I've taught in Asia, and other "third world" nations. Even "decent" schools/universities often have very low standards in terms of quality education. Their facilities are often decades behind for technology, severely limiting their ability to integrate with a service or high tech society for employment. And often they arrive in Europe without the language of the host country, which means an extended period to learn it enough to do more than the most basic of jobs.

Which means low income, and pretty crap lifestyles. All the while, they're watching the "wealthy" who get to live a much better life, without really appreciating the costs those people have to pay for such a life...... which results in bitterness, and a leaning towards crime, or social instability. Demands for "equality" or benefits as a minority increase, because they're not in a position to gain the lifestyles that the educated/skilled do. The charities, and NGO's don't exactly help there either, since they have a stake in encouraging the belief that the situation is unfair....

Traditional immigration where educated/skilled people were sought, works. It works very well. It helped Australia to boom. This, more, sympathetic form of migration doesn't work well, and won't encourage any degree of social harmony because it fails to recognise, that no nation can afford to support rising numbers of migrants who are not equipped to live/work effectively in a modern nation....

Nesta2018

Deleted User wrote: »

I favor planned immigration along the lines of skilled/educated workforces, who have a certain amount of financial reserves to support themselves. I do favor multiculturalism that arises from them.. And I'm speaking as an expat who has lived over a decade abroad... I know what it's like to be a minority.



I've also lived in many areas which were multicultural... and I think it's the sweeping clumping of them all together as if it's always the same, that's part of the problem.

The issue is simple economics. Immigrants who get good work, get paid well, have a nice house, good school for their kids, etc, will lead pretty productive lifestyles and be happy about it. Crime will be generally low, because most of them don't need it, and still remember the hard times before arriving. The next generation though, might (might) be caught between cultures, feeling that they belong to neither, and in spite of their good backgrounds, be drawn to ally with the culture/country left behind, or reject their host country completely, turning antisocial.

The real issue though, is not about those who do well after immigrating, or even those who are from the next generations. Even with typically larger families, the numbers aren't really an issue, since their parents can bail them out of trouble, or are educated/intelligent enough to push their kids a particular direction for life.

The problem is with those who arrive and don't have the education/skills to compete effectively in a first world nation. I've taught in Asia, and other "third world" nations. Even "decent" schools/universities often have very low standards in terms of quality education. Their facilities are often decades behind for technology, severely limiting their ability to integrate with a service or high tech society for employment. And often they arrive in Europe without the language of the host country, which means an extended period to learn it enough to do more than the most basic of jobs.

Which means low income, and pretty crap lifestyles. All the while, they're watching the "wealthy" who get to live a much better life, without really appreciating the costs those people have to pay for such a life...... which results in bitterness, and a leaning towards crime, or social instability. Demands for "equality" or benefits as a minority increase, because they're not in a position to gain the lifestyles that the educated/skilled do. The charities, and NGO's don't exactly help there either, since they have a stake in encouraging the belief that the situation is unfair....

Traditional immigration where educated/skilled people were sought, works. It works very well. It helped Australia to boom. This, more, sympathetic form of migration doesn't work well, and won't encourage any degree of social harmony because it fails to recognise, that no nation can afford to support rising numbers of migrants who are not equipped to live/work effectively in a modern nation....

That's exactly it and after only 20 years of immigration to Ireland, we have billions spent on DP and its associated costs, ghettos, "white flight" and an entire industry devoted to stoking ethnic and racial tension. What a disaster.

Nesta2018

Nesta2018 wrote: »

That's exactly it and after only 20 years of immigration to Ireland, we have billions spent on DP and its associated costs, ghettos, "white flight" and an entire industry devoted to stoking ethnic and racial tension. What a disaster.

It could be turned around though. Citizenship shouldn't be considered an automatic right without cost.... and I say that as an Irish person living abroad. All the while I've been living abroad, I've been paying a mortgage here, transferring money to various accounts (which are taxed) and also sending money to family members to help them with their lives. Even though, I live outside the country, I continue to contribute... and I get what? The passport, which I'm grateful for.

With migrants, do an audit for the last ten years they've been in Ireland. If they've engaged in criminal activity of any kind, black mark (in the spirit of PC BS, a rainbow mark). Audit their finances and tax contributions. Check their attempts to educate and upskill themselves. Set a basic standard comparable to an "average"on the lower scale of Irish workers, but not the lowest. We don't need more people who live in that state.. and anyone who fails to meet the standard, expel them. Give them two months to get their affairs in order, and kick them out of the EU (dependents too. A family is responsible for providing for itself). Those who are audited, are productive, etc, and those here longer than ten years, get to stay. We're stuck with anyone unproductive.

I think many Europeans have no experience of what it's like to live outside of western nations. They're pretty strict about their visa procedures and border security. I've never understood why the EU members need to be soft about it all.. when nobody else is.

Galwayguy35

I see some people saying the Irish need to make more of an effort to get to know foreign people who come here, that goes both ways and from what I've seen in various jobs and places I've lived in over the years is the people from other countries don't have much interest in getting to know the Irish either.

People want to live and socialise with others from a similar backround and culture, and this isn't just something we see in Ireland, look at other EU countries and you will find people that came to those places from outside will stick together.

It's human nature to want to stick with your own people and thats why multiculturalism is a failure everywhere.

ELM327

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Trust me you made a great decision. My niece goes to one of those educate together schools. She came home one day and told her mother she got to wear a hijab at school today.

She’s eight.

I would have kicked up a right fuss over that if it happened to my child.

That's as bad as being sent home in a union jack (butchers apron) tshirt.

Galwayguy35

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

I lived in Southwark and Croydon, London absolutely hated it. Birmingham was a sh*thole too.

I think quite a few English are of the same opinion, a few have bought houses here where I live which would be a rural village and they say they will never go back there.

wildeside

Imagine a world where this debate was about whether or not we should allow a total of 200 people a year to migrate here, from Denmark. Of course that wouldn't even be a debate. Now imagine instead of Denmark it was Poland or New Zealand or Canada or Austrailia. Still any debate? What about Japan? What about South Korea? Still no debate? Now for any those countries increase the number to 2000 a year. What about 20,000? What about 50,000? I'm guessing people start shifting around in their chairs a bit more as the number start to get much higher.

Point being, one of the fundamentals here is purely one of scale. Nobody's arguing for no immigration. I think as a nation we've done very well so far and I think we can be pround of how welcoming we've been. But logically there must be some tipping point in the human psyche where push-back starts to manifest itself, which is only human.

Now what if you do the same mental exercise above but the countries in question are Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, India, North Korea, United Arab Emirates, Eritrea, South Sudan, Libya?

Any honest, rational person will start getting more uncomfortable a lot more quickly. Reason? You're a racist bigot obviously. The other reason might be that the first group are all western liberal democracies either in Europe, direct lineage to Europe or have adopted western liberal democratic values and institutions. The latter group of countries are not and instinctively this puts us on edge as we don't know exactly what values and culture we are importing. We don't automatically know the cut of their jib so to speak and can't effortless navigate these cultures, they are unfamiliar to us and so we fear them. And some of those fears may be valid. We don't know for certain that migrants from these countries will adopt our values, values which took many hundreds of years to evolve and refine throughout the west, they were hard-won, often through conflict (we didn't just download these values from an app)

But many of these same migrants will adopt our values and it's precisely because of those values that they want to come here or to any western liberal democracy. But, as the numbers from any particular culture/origin country increase the impetus to assimilate and adopt those values can decrease.

If you look at the most advanced, freeist countries in the world then you won't be surprised to find their foundation is that of a liberal democracy. Values and ideas matter, civilisations are built on them .... or destroyed by them (identity politics anyone?)

I think we've benefitted enormously from immigration, we are one of the richest per-capita countries in the world. I don't think we should forget how far we've come. It's easy to romanticise the past.

But we also shouldn't be naieve about immigration and should learn from the mistakes of others. We should not bury our heads in the sand and cross our fingers hoping people will all just sit around the campfire singing kum-by-yah.

The problem is there is no real forum to have a debate .... and debate is one of the foundational principles of a liberal democracy.

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I see some people saying the Irish need to make more of an effort to get to know foreign people who come here, that goes both ways and from what I've seen in various jobs and places I've lived in over the years is the people from other countries don't have much interest in getting to know the Irish either.

People want to live and socialise with others from a similar backround and culture, and this isn't just something we see in Ireland, look at other EU countries and you will find people that came to those places from outside will stick together.

It's human nature to want to stick with your own people and thats why multiculturalism is a failure everywhere.

The problem is that "the pub" used to be the center of Irish society. With the smoking ban, and rising costs, most pubs outside of the cities are empty. Sure, one or two pubs are jammed on a Saturday night, but the vast majority are empty of life. As with many social changes ("good intentions") implemented, very little thought was given to what would come after to replace what went before. The cafe scenes make some sense in a city with a larger population, but they tend to struggle in smaller areas.

There's no real focusing points anymore for Irish people to congregate. Which extends to the foreigners. The only real connection point is at the schools where kids mingle, but parents don't have that much actual contact with each other, and that also leaves out a large percentage whose kids are too young or don't have kids at all.

I came back to my hometown in January of this year, and I was around before covid landed... and honestly, while people shopped, there was extremely little going on for people to interact. My hometown has a sizable african community, along with fairly large numbers of Asians. In the past, the few migrants did go to the pub to join in with people... often not drinking but making an effort to establish some friendships. After all, pubs used to be a social point for the Pioneers too... all gone now though. The pubs are only filled with young people on the weekends, those in for a dinner, and the long-term drinkers any other day. Bit pointless trying to meet people, since there are so few actual options. The drama society while it encourages everyone to join, tends to limp along without much attention.

There is just so little to do outside of the cities that involves meeting strangers... I know since I haven't lived in my hometown a very long time.. and I've tried to meet new people.

There has to be avenues to encourage people towards integration. Work is usually a prime example of that since it encourages friendships/bonds to grow, but now, we have PC culture which tends to dampen such attempts for fear of being misunderstood. Socially, options are extremely limited. Honestly, I was rather shocked at just how bad things were....

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

ELM327 wrote: »

I would have kicked up a right fuss over that if it happened to my child.

That's as bad as being sent home in a union jack (butchers apron) tshirt.

I did.

But it’s not my call.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

To keep this diversity is good propaganda going they’re going to have to push a Muslim into a high position soon. I would bet my life on there being a Muslim mayor of one of the big cities soon and within 3 years being in the Dail.

I’m saying this so I can quote it in a few weeks/months time. It happens everywhere and don’t be surprised if someone gets a push soon.

Bobblehats

It’s not diversity it’s adversity let’s not mess around here. It’s forces that want to change who you are; what you’re about the real litmus test is how you respond in the face of it.

ExMachina1000

snotboogie wrote: »

Leaving the EU is absolutely bananas, especially when the reasoning behind it is migrant quotas. What issues are EU migrants causing in Ireland? All the numbers show that immigration from the EU to Ireland is a massive net positive. Thats all besides the point that Ireland is 100% set up as an exporting nation and an entry point for US companies to the EU. Leaving the EU would obliterate our economy.

I agree it would destroy Ireland. We have lost control. Our future and our children's futures are in the hands of Brussels.

ExMachina1000

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I agree it would destroy Ireland. We have lost control. Our future and our children's futures are in the hands of Brussels.

It's not the EU... it's our own political parties. The series of Irish governments. Look at Poland. They're managing to retain control and limit what Brussels can push on them.

Irish politicians adore virtue signalling.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's not the EU... it's our own political parties. The series of Irish governments. Look at Poland. They're managing to retain control and limit what Brussels can push on them.

Irish politicians adore virtue signalling.

It’s the lies Brexit was built on. They always had control of their borders. We’re the very same. Those in charge choose to let them in.

Galwayguy35

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not the EU... it's our own political parties. The series of Irish governments. Look at Poland. They're managing to retain control and limit what Brussels can push on them.

Irish politicians adore virtue signalling.

Yep we got saddled with a debt back in 08 that no other country would accept, and when Brussels tells us to take the money from Apple we take a court case against them!

weldoninhio

Hamachi wrote: »

I’m not disagreeing with you. I think it’s important to remain open to different perspectives, ways of thinking, and friendship with people from diverse backgrounds. However, my experience on the ground is that this is mostly aspirational thinking.

My employer is an extremely diverse, progressive organization. The employee demographics are pretty much split 50:50 between Irish people and internationals. We are required to take annual anti-racism, unconscious bias etc... training. The outcome you would expect is that this fosters many cross-cultural friendships, right?

The reality is that it isn’t happening. The Irish people have gravitated towards one another, plus a couple of Europeans who are long established here. When impromptu nights out happen, these are the folks who tend to be invited and attend. Similarly, when the company organizes structured events, I know for a fact that many Irish people check the sign-up list before making the decision to attend or not.

I’m culpable here too. I invited a group of colleagues to my own wedding. It didn’t even occur to me to invite any of the internationals. Not because I’m inherently xenophobic or racist. I simply have little in common with many of them, outside of sharing the same workplace.

There is merit in what my employer is trying to do. It’s important to be respectful of different backgrounds and behave decently to others. However, fundamental human nature always asserts itself. Most people have a strong preference for being around others, with whom they share a common outlook and heritage. All the corporate training in the world will never override this basic human impulse.

People are inherently tribal. It's what helped us survive for millennia. "Multiculturism" is a man made concept that goes against all our animalistic instincts.

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not the EU... it's our own political parties. The series of Irish governments. Look at Poland. They're managing to retain control and limit what Brussels can push on them.

Irish politicians adore virtue signalling.

Poles still hav their own currency

The reality is that european national governments have had their agency radically curtailed by both the EU and the globalisation of capital.

snotboogie

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I agree it would destroy Ireland. We have lost control. Our future and our children's futures are in the hands of Brussels.

What does that even mean?

Do you have any actual arguments against an integrated Europe other than platitudes about our "children's future" What actual geopolitical gains would there be for Ireland leaving an immensely powerful trading block in the current climate?

Dyr

snotboogie wrote: »

What does that even mean?

Do you have any actual arguments against an integrated Europe other than platitudes about our "children's future" What actual geopolitical gains would there be for Ireland leaving an immensely powerful trading block in the current climate?

Mercosur is a trading bloc

The EU is a lot more than just a trading bloc

ArchXStanton

snotboogie wrote: »

What does that even mean?

Do you have any actual arguments against an integrated Europe other than platitudes about our "children's future" What actual geopolitical gains would there be for Ireland leaving an immensely powerful trading block in the current climate?

It's not just a trading bloc anymore, it's heading for a fully fledged EU superstate, regardless of what the people think, I think the big push for migrants and particularly migrant quotas is in a way part of achieving that

KiKi III

ArchXStanton wrote: »

It's not just a trading bloc anymore, it's heading for a fully fledged EU superstate, regardless of what the people think

Let’s say that’s true.

As a small, peripheral island nation, would we benefit more from being inside that or outside of it?

ArchXStanton

KiKi III wrote: »

Let’s say that’s true.

As a small, peripheral island nation, would we benefit more from being inside that or outside of it?

I don't know any countries people that would want to commit national and cultural suicide, the bureaucrats are well aware of that too. It's too heavy a price to pay for me, but then again some people sell their soul cheap...

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

Poles still hav their own currency

The reality is that european national governments have had their agency radically curtailed by both the EU and the globalisation of capital.

Ireland didn't sell it's soul when it joined the EU. We could have left, and still can leave, at any time. It would have been and still is, a remarkably stupid thing to do, but we could... Or we could have negotiated and demanded aspects that our sovereignty was entitled to retain.

Getting the Euro was solid, as was the opening of the borders. Economic reasons. Good reasons. But giving up control regarding our security, immigration and worse yet, our culture was just plain retarded. "Brussels" the Cultural hub and decider of what should be "protected"...

The EU is ****ed because countries didn't stand up and retain their independence in a manner that contributed to the development of the Union. We're as much to blame as anyone else for how the EU has turned out. We have always had a voice, and a surprising large number of people willing to listen... but our political representatives chose to play agendas. The Irish political landscape pushed into Europe.. bungling along, whispering "ahh, it'll be grand".

I remember the EEC and what it could have become if handled right. An economic powerhouse. Not a federal government. Meh.