What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RobbieTheRobber

Kivaro wrote: »

Seems like my post was deleted.
If you search the thread (not too far back) you will find other sources that supports Wibb's position.

Your post deserved to be deleted really low blow crap.
I asked for evidence I was provided that link and it certainly did not support his position and certainly didn't warrant your badgering me for a reply.
Did you read the study wibbs linked?

end of the road

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Nice to see gsoc grow a pair


https://twitter.com/conormlally/status/1353386605554192391?s=19

an organisation or person informing someone or someones who are concerned about something, that the organisation or person is aware of something that they have an obligation to be aware of, is not growing a pair but stating a fact.

Kivaro

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Your post deserved to be deleted really low blow crap.
I asked for evidence I was provided that link and it certainly did not support his position and certainly didn't warrant your badgering me for a reply.
Did you read the study wibbs linked?

?
You quoted my post, so other posters can see the "badgering".

end of the road

weldoninhio wrote: »

Prisoners aren’t people? That’s quite dehumanising.

not what she said, fo-outrage over nothing.

RobbieTheRobber

Kivaro wrote: »

?
You quoted my post, so other posters can see the "badgering".

Yes indeed I did.
I'm going to ask my question again because you are persisting
Did you read the study wibbs linked and for which you badgered me for a response to?
Is there anything on the study you believe supports Wibb's position?

doublejobbing 2

Bambi wrote: »

Danes sound like they've had enough

https://www.thelocal.dk/20210122/danish-prime-minister-wants-country-to-accept-zero-asylum-seekers

And in this country our rotating PM's sold out to a crowd of Green lunatics who as a key demand want to enact a policy that sees asylum seekers given even more preferential treatment than a native could ever get (asylum seekers already receive preferential treatment to returning emigrants. Returning emigrants are not offered state accommodation and a medical card)

Kivaro

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Yes indeed I did.
I'm going to ask my question again because you are persisting
Did you read the study wibbs linked and for which you badgered me for a response to?
Is there anything on the study you believe supports Wibb's position?

Badgering/persisting? Very strange.
You did not respond to Wibbs post even though he took the time to give you an in-depth response.
As I already told you, feel free to find the ESRI report that I posted a number of pages back that substantiates Wibbs' response. I found it on Google, which you couldn't seem to find. I will not be making the same mistake as Wibbs.

RobbieTheRobber

Kivaro wrote: »

Badgering/persisting? Very strange.
You did not respond to Wibbs post even though he took the time to give you an in-depth response.
As I already told you, feel free to find the ESRI report that I posted a number of pages back that substantiates Wibbs' response. I found it on Google, which you couldn't seem to find. I will not be making the same mistake as Wibbs.

Did you read the study you wanted me to respond about?

It's OK to say no it's over 20 pages and really just gives census and Irish refugee council data for 2011. So if you didn't read just say no.

Link your ESRI study and I'll read it next if you think it defends racism in ireland.

Ps: you know I'm under no obligation to respond to anyone and certainly am not under anyones especially your timeframe to respond to anything.

Esho

I was so enthusiastic when so many black Africans started coming to Ireland. Massive generalisation, but the Nigerians, Congolese, Ivorians, Rwandans, Ugandans I met on my travels were the best of people.

Worked with the "new communities" as they were called in the 00s, all over the country.

By and large, the majority of people wanted a safe and better life for their families. Like most everyone.
Many were caught in the poverty trap on being on welfare, and it being a huge drop in wages. Like the locals. There was a Roma guy with 14 kids who had the smile of a lotto winner every time I met him! Exception rather than rule though.

But like most migrants, the others worked harder than the natives, doing the jobs that they wouldn't do. Almost everyone I dealt with I'd be happy to live beside.

If you are growing up and you get (rascist) abuse with any degree of regularity, you are going to feel like you are not a part of the host community, youre.going to feel like an outsider. And behave accordingly. Especially if to there's fug-all going on where you live. This is true of any marginalized group.

Govt depts could see the "ghetto" forming in Balbriggan, for example, but were not set up or sufficiently arsed to do anything back then. Now there's a bunch of black nobheads there who thinks they're living in Peckham or somewhere, by the sound of them on YouTube. Funny hearing Afro-Irish talking like West Indian Londoners.

It is really sad, they need a rocket but just the same as the little nobheads whose folks always lived here, causing trouble in other parts. That no-one gives a shyte about either.

Those who lived in the centre of Dublin and in Galway, also smaller towns, became locals themselves and got on with it. No issues.

But integration cuts both ways. The cynicism of some of the do-gooders was sickening, as was the cowardice of other organisations.
And the stupidity if the government in not plugging the anchor child loophole earlier.
The diversity crap of the HSE in removing Xmas trees and cribs was misguided and just wrong.
So partisan mouthpieces like Ali Salim and Ebun get oxygen.

Difficult to express these views at work.
Happy I changed career, couldn't work in that area any more.

Fair play to GSOC. Fair play to Leo and Simon Coveny too, who called bs on the Twitter cultural appropriation crap about the Afro American girl who was a champion Irish dancer.

But I'm also unhappy to see the go-home Johnny Foreigner attitude around now. Its just xenophobia,not going to solve anything now. That horse has bolted.

Still holding out hope for an Irish 2tone though.

Esho

Esho wrote: »

But I'm also unhappy to see the go-home Johnny Foreigner attitude around now. Its just xenophobia,not going to solve anything now. That horse has bolted..

Except that it's not just xenophobia, is it? That's just a lazy way to dismiss the concerns that many have.

- When a larger percentage of migrants end up on the lowest part of the socio-economic pyramid, that's going to affect how people see them.
- When we see a growing number of violent incidents involving migrants or their children, then that's going to affect how people see them.
- When various migrants go public on how racist and ignorant Irish people are (mass generalisations), and then expect welfare/government supports, then that's going to affect how people see them.
-etc.

The point being that Ireland was originally an extremely welcoming country to foreigners, of all backgrounds. But that goodwill has been slowly been diminishing over time, due to the behavior of various groups of foreigners/migrants. Migrant groups are responsible for how they're perceived. It's just the way things are, and it's that way, all around the world. If those who came before you, behave well, then you'll receive a glowing welcome. If those who came before you, didn't behave so well... yeah.. you'll be judged collectively as a group.

"Xenophobia" is just another way to dismiss valid criticisms of migrant/foreign groups.. just like the way that racist, bigot, etc are thrown around. The attempt to silence those who don't want to virtue signal the future of this nation away.

Esho

Deleted User wrote: »

Except that it's not just xenophobia, is it? That's just a lazy way to dismiss the concerns that many have.

- When a larger percentage of migrants end up on the lowest part of the socio-economic pyramid, that's going to affect how people see them.
- When we see a growing number of violent incidents involving migrants or their children, then that's going to affect how people see them.
- When various migrants go public on how racist and ignorant Irish people are (mass generalisations), and then expect welfare/government supports, then that's going to affect how people see them.

- No, xenophobia/ racism is a lazy way to react to small groups of criminals because of their ethnicity.
- Most migrants in Ireland work - are you talking about migrants with African backgrounds?
- if you don't "look Irish" you get a lot of crap from idiots. That said, the people you're talking about should be called out by whoever is giving them airspace.

You are making mass generalisations about "migrants" - there are people here from over 100 countries.

Esho

Esho wrote: »

- No, xenophobia/ racism is a lazy way to react to small groups of criminals because of their ethnicity.

Edit: I understand the reference now. Nope. It's not due to their ethnicity. It's due to what is being done. We expect that we will have to deal with our own trash... dealing with others trash isn't what we expect from migrant groups that are here less than thirty years, and for some, a lot less time than that.

- Most migrants in Ireland work - are you talking about migrants with African backgrounds?

Most legal migrants who have the skills/education to work, do work. Those refugees, and other migrants (allowed in through virtue signalling politicians) are often not working, due to being low skilled/lowly educated, and the nature of low skilled work is that it's often unreliable, temporary, etc, along with the associated low wages. And considering the limited industry that Ireland has for such low skilled employees, I do wonder how they're all gainfully employed, when we already have a native population that is lowly skilled... and with covid shutting down all those industries, they need to be supported. Awesome.

- if you don't "look Irish" you get a lot of crap from idiots. That said, the people you're talking about should be called out by whoever is giving them airspace.

Sure. Call them out. Just don't be surprised if they know more about the immigration situation than you do, and can cite a range of negatives that affects their local communities.

You are making mass generalisations about "migrants" - there are people here from over 100 countries.

Of course I am making mass generalisations. There was a time when that didn't need to be pointed out, and people understood that in a topic such as this, generalisations would be used. Just as you have done with your own response. I haven't seen you seek to be particularly specific...

You do realise that this has been said a hundred times already? Few people have any issue with migrants who have the skills/education to get employment that supports them without needing government support. Which is probably why posters like yourself repeatedly seek to cover all migrants together under one name, while also crying out against generalisations

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I typed a post earlier and deleted it.
But nothing in this article wibbs linked actually supports his position.

The only thing he said supported by this study was his position that Africans and Asians are subject to discrimination in seeking employment. Other than that not a single one of his positions is supported by the study.

And rather than hit submit on a Hasty post I was going to review more recent CSO and Irish refugee council data as used by the author of this study who used 2011 census data. Once I had a better understanding of the more recent data I was going to refute wibbs post on the basis this study did not support his position. And further refute the claims on my hypothesis that note recent data would also fail to support the claims wibbs made.

Did you read the 20 odd pages of this document is there anything in there you think you would like to quote that supports wibbs position?

Well the opening statement does:

O’Connell and Kenny (2017) show that only about 40% of adult African nationals in Ireland are employed, far less than the average for Irish natives or for other immigrant groups. They also suffer much higher rates of unemployment than the national average.

The African disadvantage is evident for both men and women. About 50% of African males are employed, about 10 percentage points lower than the average employment rate. African women are even more disadvantaged: their employment rate, less than 38%, is 17 percentage points below the average female employment rate.

They also note this trend is reflected across Europe.


From one of the doyennes of pointing out our land of inadequate welcomes:

This week the Economic and Social Research Institute warned that African nationals are now “the most disadvantaged” group in the Irish labour market, with far higher joblessness than other immigrant groups.

And:

Sixteen per cent of African nationals living in Ireland were unemployed last year, compared with 7 per cent of Irish and 4 per cent of western Europeans living in the State. Just 45 per cent of African-born nationals have a job.

Though how the rate is both 16% and 45% is puzzling. Regardless according to the stats 55% of African born nationals need state and taxpayer support. That's an insane statistic.

And here more insanity:

More than 63 per cent of Congolese were out of work in 2016, the highest of any group. The unemployment rate among Nigerians was 43 per cent.

Or this ESRI report.(PDF) Which includes data from 2017.

Where one can find this statistical nugget: In 2017 less than 45 per cent of Africans in the 15-64 year age group were employed only 53 per cent of them were economically active and low labour force participation rates among Africans.

That's a huge difference to background native and other non native demographics. And you’ll note I also said: I have zero doubt that discrimination is indeed a very large part of it Let me be very clear on this; I am saying racism and discrimination is very much at play. Of course it is and it's not just Africans facing it, nor is it just Africans who face this throughout Europe and show similar clusters towards the bottom of society. Xenophobia exists, has existed since forever and will always exist and no "race" or ethnicity is innocent in it.

However I look to reality rather than wishful thinking. I admire the optimistic, but these trends are seen across the western "multicultural" world. Please find me any society in Europe, including those with long standing over generations migrant populations where Black people, some Middle Eastern and Roma populations aren't more likely to cluster near the bottom of those societies in employment and education and criminality and social need. I'll save you your time; there aren't any. You'd think at least a couple of European societies would have worked this out over the last 60+ years? But they haven't. If anything there is an increase in social problems and ghettoisation and a feeling of disenfranchisement down the generations.

So how do you think Ireland will magically be different? Given we've only been multicultural for little over two decades, we've already seen it starting here. We've already imported an underclass with a new flavour and new challenges on top of our existing one.

LostinBlanch

Hellokitty1212 wrote: »

Agree with you on both - I give to Focus as they have a drop in centre I used to walk past on my way to work (when that was a thing!) and they do good work.

I'd give a shout out to Brother Kevin in Church Street. They don't have bloated admin costs and spend all their money on feeding whoever comes to their door.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Most legal migrants who have the skills/education to work, do work. Those refugees, and other migrants (allowed in through virtue signalling politicians) are often not working, due to being low skilled/lowly educated

I won't even get into most of your post, but firstly, refugees are legal migrants.
Secondly, what is your issue with refugees? And why do you expect them to be low skilled and lowly educated?

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

Well the opening statement does:

O’Connell and Kenny (2017) show that only about 40% of adult African nationals in Ireland are employed, far less than the average for Irish natives or for other immigrant groups. They also suffer much higher rates of unemployment than the national average.

The African disadvantage is evident for both men and women. About 50% of African males are employed, about 10 percentage points lower than the average employment rate. African women are even more disadvantaged: their employment rate, less than 38%, is 17 percentage points below the average female employment rate.

They also note this trend is reflected across Europe.


From one of the doyennes of pointing out our land of inadequate welcomes:

This week the Economic and Social Research Institute warned that African nationals are now “the most disadvantaged” group in the Irish labour market, with far higher joblessness than other immigrant groups.

And:

Sixteen per cent of African nationals living in Ireland were unemployed last year, compared with 7 per cent of Irish and 4 per cent of western Europeans living in the State. Just 45 per cent of African-born nationals have a job.

Though how the rate is both 16% and 45% is puzzling. Regardless according to the stats 55% of African born nationals need state and taxpayer support. That's an insane statistic.

And here more insanity:

More than 63 per cent of Congolese were out of work in 2016, the highest of any group. The unemployment rate among Nigerians was 43 per cent.

Or this ESRI report.(PDF) Which includes data from 2017.

Where one can find this statistical nugget: In 2017 less than 45 per cent of Africans in the 15-64 year age group were employed only 53 per cent of them were economically active and low labour force participation rates among Africans.

That's a huge difference to background native and other non native demographics. And you’ll note I also said: I have zero doubt that discrimination is indeed a very large part of it Let me be very clear on this; I am saying racism and discrimination is very much at play. Of course it is and it's not just Africans facing it, nor is it just Africans who face this throughout Europe and show similar clusters towards the bottom of society. Xenophobia exists, has existed since forever and will always exist and no "race" or ethnicity is innocent in it.

However I look to reality rather than wishful thinking. I admire the optimistic, but these trends are seen across the western "multicultural" world. Please find me any society in Europe, including those with long standing over generations migrant populations where Black people, some Middle Eastern and Roma populations aren't more likely to cluster near the bottom of those societies in employment and education and criminality and social need. I'll save you your time; there aren't any. You'd think at least a couple of European societies would have worked this out over the last 60+ years? But they haven't. If anything there is an increase in social problems and ghettoisation and a feeling of disenfranchisement down the generations.

So how do you think Ireland will magically be different? Given we've only been multicultural for little over two decades, we've already seen it starting here. We've already imported an underclass with a new flavour and new challenges on top of our existing one.

You'll note I agreed that you indeed confirm that discrimination is the main difference the study would find between Africans and the other non national groups in terms of difference.

Another key finding of the report you provided was that for Africans and Asians in particular as opposed to other immigrants they were more likely to have spent extended periods of time in direct provision. And during their stay in direct provision they would not be allowed to work.

This refusal by the state to allow them work was deemed unconstitutional (I can't recall the date 2016 I think) so it would be interesting to review more recent data and see if allowing people from direct provision to seek employment has an impact on their post direct provision employment opportunities. Which the report you linked suggested it might.

Additionally I don't accept that just because something hasn't worked before in the past in the different circumstances in different countries that it won't work here if we try different methods. That's just fatalism and I don't accept that.

If humans gave up just because something didn't work in the past when we tried it we would never progress.
So I don't accept that because we have failed in the past we should give up trying new methods or ideas.

RobbieTheRobber

bubblypop wrote: »

I won't even get into most of your post, but firstly, refugees are legal migrants.
Secondly, what is your issue with refugees? And why do you expect them to be low skilled and lowly educated?

It's also not true they are low skilled/ educated according to the study wibbs linked. The authors of that study did not find a significant disparity of education levels across immigrant groups and certainly nothing that could account for the disparity in employment opportunities across the groups particularly Africans and Asians.

enricoh

Someone should email the Danish prime minister n tell her she's been fatalistic! It's all ok anyway - Ireland is getting all the good asylum seekers, denmark got all the duds!

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

I won't even get into most of your post, but firstly, refugees are legal migrants.
Secondly, what is your issue with refugees? And why do you expect them to be low skilled and lowly educated?

I've no problem with actual refugees, so long as they're processed quickly for all concerned. My problem was the birthright citizenship now closed loophole that had thousands rock up to Ireland, The same thousands where over 90% would be rejected access today. But sadly that horse has bolted. Though there are calls among some of our elected representatives to reverse that overwhelming majority of Irish voters decision to close the loophole and our justice minister looking to hand out thousands of residency permits to the illegals living here, sorry "undocumented". Never mind the drive to bring in literally millions of migrants over the next forty years to "pay our pensions". I also have a problem with how the so called "diversity" is portrayed and pushed. We have over 200,000 thousand White non native Irish people living here, EU and non EU, but of them we see or hear almost nothing. Clearly not "diverse" enough. I have a problem with the idea that we'll be somehow different and work this out when the evidence is quite clear the same xenophobia and social problems on all sides is already in play here. I have a problem with lack of dialogue around this multiculturalism politic and the slamming down of any questioning of this politic in the mainstream. Instead it is left to the loony fringes and that never ends well when frustration builds up.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

I won't even get into most of your post, but firstly, refugees are legal migrants.

Indeed they are. Did I say they weren't?

Secondly, what is your issue with refugees? And why do you expect them to be low skilled and lowly educated?

I've covered this on multiple times previously, so I'm not going to post up the links again.

In terms of educational quality across Africa, and parts of the M.East, the quality is far lower than Europe, due to lack of funding, a shortage of teachers/lecturers, corruption, and the ability to buy qualifications. Standardisation/regulation of educational qualifications is pretty lackluster too. In many countries, access to third level education is restricted, meaning that large numbers of refugees won't have the education to work in jobs above the "unskilled" areas. Those areas have the lowest wages, and therefore, they will need government supplements/welfare to provide for their families.

Which will likely lead to bitterness by migrants because they're not having the lives that the average Irish person has... because those Irish were privileged to be citizens and have access to education that meets European standards.

Those refugees will need extensive educational commitments to bring them up to the level of being competitive with Irish people (including in many cases, language acquisition), and to be able to earn salaries (not wages) which can provide the standard of living that they expect from living in a first world nation.

I have no issue with refugees as such. I have issue with the practicalities involved, the lack of a successful functioning system capable of providing what they need (and they do need more attention than native students by teachers), and more importantly, the lack of any serious drive to create employment for them.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

I've no problem with actual refugees, so long as they're processed quickly for all concerned. My problem was the birthright citizenship now closed loophole that had thousands rock up to Ireland, The same thousands where over 90% would be rejected access today. But sadly that horse has bolted. Though there are calls among some of our elected representatives to reverse that overwhelming majority of Irish voters decision to close the loophole and our justice minister looking to hand out thousands of residency permits to the illegals living here, sorry "undocumented". Never mind the drive to bring in literally millions of migrants over the next forty years to "pay our pensions". I also have a problem with how the so called "diversity" is portrayed and pushed. We have over 200,000 thousand White non native Irish people living here, EU and non EU, but of them we see or hear almost nothing. Clearly not "diverse" enough. I have a problem with the idea that we'll be somehow different and work this out when the evidence is quite clear the same xenophobia and social problems on all sides is already in play here. I have a problem with lack of dialogue around this multiculturalism politic and the slamming down of any questioning of this politic in the mainstream. Instead it is left to the loony fringes and that never ends well when frustration builds up.

You are just trying to confuse an issue where there is no issue.
'actual refugees ' as you put it, are processed before they even come into the country. They are not seeking asylum
You need to get over the birthright 'loophole ' as you put it, it's gone around 16 years, it won't be coming back, time to move on.

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Another key finding of the report you provided was that for Africans and Asians in particular as opposed to other immigrants they were more likely to have spent extended periods of time in direct provision. And during their stay in direct provision they would not be allowed to work.

The majority of those who got residency here when the birthright loophole was in play weren't in direct provision and yet the stats stay their inevitable course.

Additionally I don't accept that just because something hasn't worked before in the past in the different circumstances in different countries that it won't work here if we try different methods. That's just fatalism and I don't accept that.

If humans gave up just because something didn't work in the past when we tried it we would never progress.
So I don't accept that because we have failed in the past we should give up trying new methods or ideas.

Id est, wishful thinking. What different methods? What hasn't been tried? How do you stop the quite understandable human nature need to be around people that are more like us, that leads to ghettoisation? Do you set legal limits to where people want to live? That's hardly a positive? More education? Fine, but what if some demographics don't want our kind of education? EG religions that again quite understandably want faith schools for their kids. Schools and education that doesn't want a bar of Liberal European though when it buts up against doctrine. More integration? Sounds great, but East Asians don't particularly integrate beyond the surface and regularly found their own communities(there are Chinatowns and little Hanois all over the place) and yet do far better than other demographics and indeed often better than native.

Never mind recent experience, please point out any state in history that wasn't a hardline imperial power with its own issues where multiculturalism worked? And even then... Now if we look at things like Gay rights, or gender equality and think we're great that we mostly sorted those out, we can point to periods of history where they were in play to various degrees, but of multiculturalism of the current sort? Nada.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

You are just trying to confuse an issue where there is no issue.

There is more than one issue raised in my post.

You need to get over the birthright 'loophole ' as you put it, it's gone around 16 years, it won't be coming back, time to move on.

You better tell the Labour party and a few others that. Never mind the current Justice minister wanting to give out residency to illegals living here.

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

The majority of those who got residency here when the birthright loophole was in play weren't in direct provision and yet the stats stay their inevitable course.

Id est, wishful thinking. What different methods? What hasn't been tried? How do you stop the quite understandable human nature need to be around people that are more like us, that leads to ghettoisation? Do you set legal limits to where people want to live? That's hardly a positive? More education? Fine, but what if some demographics don't want our kind of education? EG religions that again quite understandably want faith schools for their kids. Schools and education that doesn't want a bar of Liberal European though when it buts up against doctrine. More integration? Sounds great, but East Asians don't particularly integrate beyond the surface and regularly found their own communities(there are Chinatowns and little Hanois all over the place) and yet do far better than other demographics and indeed often better than native.

Never mind recent experience, please point out any state in history that wasn't a hardline imperial power with its own issues where multiculturalism worked? And even then... Now if we look at things like Gay rights, or gender equality and think we're great that we mostly sorted those out, we can point to periods of history where they were in play to various degrees, but of multiculturalism of the current sort? Nada.

Religion is a completly different issue and I would be happy to remove all religious influence on education in this country.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

There is more than one issue raised in my post.

You better tell the Labour party and a few others that. Never mind the current Justice minister wanting to give out residency to illegals living here.

It won't be back, they can say it all they want!
Which illegals is it exactly? Who are they? Are they people who entered on student visas, or holidays visas or asylum seekers, or do we know?

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

There is more than one issue raised in my post.

You better tell the Labour party and a few others that. Never mind the current Justice minister wanting to give out residency to illegals living here.

The labour party have 6 seats and will probably have less in the next election. Let's not start using them as the bogeyman to scare children to sleep at night. With claims they will let the foreigners in to take our place. Please

I agree their call for birthright nationality is stupid and certainly not something I support.

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

The majority of those who got residency here when the birthright loophole was in play weren't in direct provision and yet the stats stay their inevitable course.

That was a mistake we can all agree on that. That is why that loophole was plugged but if they didn't go through the proper immigration process should we really use them as an example to beat the current immigration process?

One eyed Jack

Wibbs wrote: »

Though how the rate is both 16% and 45% is puzzling. Regardless according to the stats 55% of African born nationals need state and taxpayer support. That's an insane statistic.

The 45% figure relates to the number of people as a percentage of the total number of people who are eligible to participate in the labour market (they’re including children and adults), and the 16% relates to the number of people as a percentage of that demographic who are actually dependent upon State support, whether it be in the form of unemployment benefit or some other form of assistance payment from the State (provided they qualify for it of course). That’s why the figures for the percentages participating in the labour market are similar among the different groups, and there is a discrepancy in the percentages of people receiving unemployment assistance or some other form of welfare payment. The figures don’t say it and they don’t appear to wish to acknowledge the numbers of women in all demographics who do not wish to participate in the labour market and are ineligible for unemployment assistance, who are raising their children and taking care of their families.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

This refusal by the state to allow them work was deemed unconstitutional (I can't recall the date 2016 I think) so it would be interesting to review more recent data and see if allowing people from direct provision to seek employment has an impact on their post direct provision employment opportunities. Which the report you linked suggested it might.

Certainly their time in direct provision (for those who were in direct provision at least), would offer some explanation as to their difficulties in finding employment. Other contributing factors are the perception on their part of discrimination, and another contributing factor is that they simply prefer more... ahem, ‘cash in hand’ work, as it were, and are quite content that it would remain on the down low, and do-gooders feck off and don’t interfere with their business

Wibbs wrote: »

How do you stop the quite understandable human nature need to be around people that are more like us, that leads to ghettoisation? Do you set legal limits to where people want to live? That's hardly a positive? More education? Fine, but what if some demographics don't want our kind of education? EG religions that again quite understandably want faith schools for their kids. Schools and education that doesn't want a bar of Liberal European though when it buts up against doctrine. More integration? Sounds great, but East Asians don't particularly integrate beyond the surface and regularly found their own communities(there are Chinatowns and little Hanois all over the place) and yet do far better than other demographics and indeed often better than native.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Religion is a completly different issue and I would be happy to remove all religious influence on education in this country.

That’s not answering the question that was asked though about how you would address the issues Wibbs raises (notwithstanding the fact that there’s more chance of Ebun Joseph becoming Taoiseach than there is religious influence being removed from education in this country, in ANY country). I don’t understand how you can say religion is a completely different issue as if it doesn’t relate to education when it’s a fundamental part of education and a source of much conflict in education. You must surely be aware of how religion influences education not just on the continent, but globally, and you’re suggesting that it’s a completely separate issue?

It’s not, and certainly not in Ireland where religion is one of the cohesive elements in education among both Irish children and their immigrant counterparts (or second and subsequent generation immigrant counterparts). Religion is also a cohesive element in socioeconomic and cultural values among Irish and immigrants for the most part (it hasn’t gone unnoticed), particularly in urban areas where there are concentrations of both extremes - DEIS schools and fee paying schools - both will share the same ethos, but one will have significantly more resources than the other and will have a far better pupil:teacher ratio.

That’s not accounting for ET schools (which are a bit of a mixed bag in terms of the socioeconomic backgrounds of their student population), nor is it accounting for schools which are not recognised by the State and therefore receive no State funding (which are again something of a mixed bag between Steiner schools and religious ethos schools) or home school networks which again would share core values and educational standards which must meet a non-defined minimum standard of education for the children, overseen by TUSLA. There are many different demographics which have no desire to participate in a more secular liberal education, France being one of the more extreme examples, but it’s evidenced in Germany and the UK too, and to a lesser degree here in Ireland, precisely because there is no real desire to remove religious influence from our education system.

Undoubtedly, the influence of religion presents something of a paradox or conundrum for liberal academics, who all too often choose to do as you have done, and pretend that religion is a completely separate issue in terms of multiculturalism. They’re thinking of multiculturalism on their terms (an abstract ideological concept which they can theorise and quantify and predict with statistical data which suits their ideological and political leanings), and not what multiculturalism actually is in reality - it’s like mixing oil and water for the most part. That’s not to suggest a stable and sustainable multicultural society is an impossible achievement, but in order for the process to work, it’s important to acknowledge and understand all contributing factors rather than simply ignore or discard factors which don’t gel with a liberal understanding of multiculturalism, and soap, lots and lots of soap

Esho

Wibbs wrote: »

There is more than one issue raised in my post.

You better tell the Labour party and a few others that. Never mind the current Justice minister wanting to give out residency to illegals living here.

Most of the illegals here have been paying tax and are working. I've no problem with this myself.

I agree with you that there is a problem where diverse = black from all the types who live on planet zog - like social justice warriors, journalists, politicians and others who are too lazy to think or to spineless to address this issue head on.

CruelCoin

One eyed Jack wrote: »

because there is no real desire to remove religious influence from our education system.

I thought we had a new law recently that religion couldn't be used anymore in deciding school places?

I'd like to see them removed entirely from schools, but i wouldn't agree that there is no desire.