What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Invidious

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I said a prayer and God told me so.

And you expect people to take you seriously when you come out with nonsense like this?

RobbieTheRobber

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You accused "most recent posters".

Or do you have a special meaning of racism and islamaphobia?

I honestly couldn't tell as the goalposts seem to shift whenever you want them to.

I never said racism or islamaphobia are you accussing the right person?

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

multiculturalism
/ˌmʌltɪˈkʌltʃ(ə)r(ə)lɪz(ə)m/
noun
the presence of, or support for the presence of, several distinct cultural or ethnic groups within a society.

Is race not another word for ethnic groups?
Or do you need me to get another definition that includes the word race?

I think the word you might be looking more is multiethnic.

I was talking about multiculturalism.

So if I said "Irish culture" could I include black and Muslims? Or does culture mean race? Seems a little exclusive.

I would have said culture meant long held traditions in an area or community.

But no, if it means race to you, fire ahead.

RobbieTheRobber

Invidious wrote: »

And you expect people to take you seriously when you come out with nonsense like this?

No I don't need you to take me seriously. I stopped taking most of the comments on this thread serious some time ago. The opinions here do not seem to be the majority opinion of the nation. So think as you will I really don't mind.

RobbieTheRobber

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think the word you might be looking more is multiethnic.

I was talking about multiculturalism.

So if I said "Irish culture" could I include black and Muslims? Or does culture mean race? Seems a little exclusive.

I would have said culture meant long held traditions in an area or community.

But no, if it means race to you, fire ahead.

Please go back and reread that post im not sure what argument you are trying to make. That is the Oxford dictionary definition for multiculturalism. With no embellishment from me.

Or here read the britanica entry for the word multiculturalism

https://www.britannica.com/topic/multiculturalism

Sweetemotion

Invidious wrote: »

And you expect people to take you seriously when you come out with nonsense like this?

The right, love people posting nonsense like that.

It shows moderates how intolerant the modern left have become.

RobbieTheRobber

Sweetemotion wrote: »

The right, love people posting nonsense like that.

It shows moderates how intolerant the modern left have become.

Left right such stupid terms to describe something as nuanced as political beliefs.
Have at your name calling.

Justin Credible Darts

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

It is about race it is very clearly about other races. What is implied by the term multiculturalism?

Then let me put it this way, I have no problem with other cultures coming here,


I have a problem with poor , unskilled workers coming here raping the system dry, taking the housing, living on handouts.
The fact most of these might well be black or darker skin does not make it a racial issue., its about the impact on this country that I pay tax in.


why should our own people who are on housing lists for over a decade be jumped in the que by people coming here to sponge of the state, regardless of whatever color or creed they are.


I dont like our own Irish people sponging, so why should I accept foreign ones doing it.


This whole raping the system hiding under the banner of "multiculturism" is part of the problem.

no one had an issue with foreigners working here for decades, its the sponging that is the problem

Invidious

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No I don't need you to take me seriously.

Okay, that's fine with me...

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

OK what makes these groups different?

Come on, you can't be this blind to the practicalities of immigration, and hosting different groups in a foreign (foreign to them, and so, without the usual supports) nation.

What makes some good and some bad?

I shouldn't need a disclaimer here but I can see I need one with you.

First, my opinions are my own. Nothing to do with Wibbs or other posters. They might like my post, but i know they don't agree with everything I say..
Second, this is not about migrants being good or bad individually. These are generalisations. If you can't accept that.. well.. I wonder why you're discussing such a topic at all.

Now.

Immigration groups:

Genuine Asylum seeker. No problem at all. If they meet the requirements, I'd welcome them with open arms.. although I do think the requirements need to re-evaluated from time to time, and not from the perspective of the UN, but from the perspective of the host nation (that's the one receiving them)

Economic migrants. Temporary. (which is important)
Two distinct groups.
Skilled/educated migrants who are meeting established needs within the economy. Totally welcome. They'll work hard, save money, pay their taxes, and move on eventually.
Unskilled/low educated migrants. I've said it before, and no doubt I'll say it again.. Ireland doesn't have the economy or industry focus to support large numbers of unskilled labor. Other countries such as Germany or France do.. and even they're having issues with employing them consistently.

Economic migrants. Permanent, residency or citizenship.
Skilled/educated migrants who are meeting established needs within the economy. Again, totally welcome.
Unskilled/low educated migrants... cost the state too much to upskill and provide for during the period that they're being upskilled. Results across Europe show a surprisingly low success rate in educating such migrant groups, and while the blame is being directed at the nations involved, simple logic suggests that some must rest with these migrants. A large percentage stay on welfare during their education, and return to it after.

Refugees. That's a tough one because it's been allowed to expand into economic as opposed to purely due to war. I don't believe we should be accepting them, and that they should be heading to neighboring countries, waiting until they can return home to rebuild. Hopefully, leading their country into a new future of enlightenment and peace.

As OEJ said earlier, I do favor the Australian approach to immigration. I don't see the point in importing an underclass of unskilled/lowly educated people into the country, when we already have such groups of our own. Europe has a rather large unemployment rate depending on which countries you examine, and I feel that we would be much better off tapping into that labor market than importing or encouraging groups from countries which are distinctly different than ours culturally.

Which leads into multiculturalism, where I feel Ireland would be better off focusing on improving links to other European countries, rather than bringing in peoples whose values and beliefs are often distinctly different from ours.

The effects of multiculturalism are well documented throughout Europe, which rarely show any friction between European cultural groups, but has shown increasing friction with groups from outside Europe. I'd favor a set limit on immigration from Africa, M.East and S.America. I'm less bothered by Asians, as they tend to avoid any trouble leading to friction, don't demand recognition of their culture, and are usually very successful in finding work.

I'm interested in a pragmatic system being put in place, that provides what migrants need to be a success (education, work placement, etc) but sets a time limit for how long migrants can fail before becoming self-sufficient. I'd favor deportations for any migrant who fails to become self-sufficient within a 10 year period (assuming that education acquisition was part of that). Any children born during that period would leave with the parents should the fail to meet the requirements.

As for multiculturalism and Islam.. Yup.. I have a bone there. Not because I have anything against Islam (or Muslims themselves).. since I've spent time in the M.East and think they're entitled to their cultural choices. However, I do have concerns about Islam in Europe, for example, with what's happening in France, (not just the violence, but the ethnic enclaves, and the colonialism of certain areas by migrant groups).. The issues with Islam and the failure of integration highlight the problems with integration for other racial/cultural groups.

So.. there you go. A decent and detailed answer. We'll see whether you deal with it in good faith, or continue as you have so far.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

Not you

That's helpful. Who?

CtevenSrowder

bubblypop wrote: »

From reading the whole thread, this appears to be the general consensus. There is one poster who Seems to be against any other nationality, but he's honest about it.

Rubbish take. People are generally against multi-culturalism full stop. It just so happens that the benefits of, for example, being in the Eu with the free movement of people broadly speaking outweigh the negatives. Culturally speaking, we are all very very similar. The same cannot be said for those coming from outside the EU. It is ofcourse the case that large numbers of immigrants coming from the Middle East and Africa in particular bring a huge set of problems that we don't need, and the benefits of having these people don't outweigh the negatives.

CtevenSrowder

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

It is about race it is very clearly about other races. What is implied by the term multiculturalism?

A multitude of cultures. It has very little to do with race. It has to do with culture. You can be black and be culturally Irish, unless you think otherwise? Do you?

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

multiculturalism
/ˌmʌltɪˈkʌltʃ(ə)r(ə)lɪz(ə)m/
noun
the presence of, or support for the presence of, several distinct cultural or ethnic groups within a society.

Is race not another word for ethnic groups?
Or do you need me to get another definition that includes the word race?

There are 56 (ish) ethnic groups in China. They're all Chinese. Some are racially different, although, again, they're all Chinese, but have distinctly different cultures.

Ethnic groups within a society refers more to culture than it does to race. Your own definition says as much, and you skipped past it.

It's seems like you're the one who needs to focus on race.

Justin Credible Darts

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

A multitude of cultures. It has very little to do with race. It has to do with culture. You can be black and be culturally Irish, unless you think otherwise? Do you?

indeed, unless he thinks a black person born and reared in Ireland, born to black parents born and reared here are not irish, then would that make him the racist ?

RobbieTheRobber

[Deleted User] wrote: »

First, my opinions are my own
So.. there you go. A decent and detailed answer. We'll see whether you deal with it in good faith, or continue as you have so far.

Fair pay Klaz for putting your opinion out there honestly like this i do appreciate that.

There is quite a lot in it and it is late so I won't try to reply as I would like to give your post a full and fair reply. I will come back with a reply to this post tomorrow.

CtevenSrowder

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Rubbish take. People are generally against multi-culturalism full stop. .

No they are not, this thread does not reflect real life attitudes that I can see.
And there are huge cultural differences within the EU, you don't need non EU immigrants for that.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Fair pay Klaz for putting your opinion out there honestly like this i do appreciate that.

There is quite a lot in it and it is late so I won't try to reply as I would like to give your post a full and fair reply. I will come back with a reply to this post tomorrow.

Fair enough.. although I would point out something. Many of the posters here are regulars to the thread, and have posted detailed opinions previously.. often repeatedly. I know I have done similar to the above quite a few times now.

The point being, that while I know it's difficult (and somewhat unreasonable) to read through the whole thread, it's possible to scan (we're all internet veterans at this stage) through a dozen or more pages to see where the discussion has come from and led to . It'll also give you some perspective on the type of resistance that is expressed here, which is often very aggressive and insulting (the accusations of racism, bigotry, Islamophobia etc). We've seen it all before and its usually used by people who have no interest in arguing honestly.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

No they are not, this thread does not reflect real life attitudes that I can see.

I would say that there has been little effort to establish what most people feel about multiculturalism.. with an honest foundation and introduction. There are too many organisations with skin in the game (funding, political support, etc) for us to have any real notion of what most people feel.

Although, I suspect the happenings in France have shifted a lot of peoples attitudes. Really depends on how much spin they heard before they got the information.. and that spin is definitely there.

And there are huge cultural differences within the EU, you don't need non EU immigrants for that.

Yes, there are huge differences within the EU in terms of customs and behavioral norms. However, there are also a host of similarities in terms of values, and expectations of "good" behavior. Which is lacking in non-western nations, simply because their situations have been far different from ours.

CtevenSrowder

bubblypop wrote: »

No they are not, this thread does not reflect real life attitudes that I can see.
And there are huge cultural differences within the EU, you don't need non EU immigrants for that.

I meant within the thread, is that not who you were referring to in the post you quoted no?

Justin Credible Darts

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

indeed, unless he thinks a black person born and reared in Ireland, born to black parents born and reared here are not irish, then would that make him the racist ?

Does it make him racist? Or simply elitist? If there's no sense of hatred, superiority, etc.. but simply not believing a Black person to be Irish.. it wouldn't seem like racist would be the most appropriate/accurate term.. no?

I must admit that Racism/racist has "evolved" so far beyond what I was taught, that it might as well be a new word entirely. Seems to become a broader term every few months.

CruelCoin

Wibbs wrote: »

None from Africa or the Middle East for a start. It seems they're biased towards east Asians and Whites.

To be fair, maybe the africans and mid-easterns don't want to swap one desertified barren wasteland for another?

Justin Credible Darts

Deleted User wrote: »

Does it make him racist? Or simply elitist? If there's no sense of hatred, superiority, etc.. but simply not believing a Black person to be Irish.. it wouldn't seem like racist would be the most appropriate/accurate term.. no?

I must admit that Racism/racist has "evolved" so far beyond what I was taught, that it might as well be a new word entirely. Seems to become a broader term every few months.

Too true.


The truth is racism is the same is always was/is.


Its just modern morons like to bandy it around so often, that being accused of being racist these days means nothing. ..since everyone is being accused on a whim without any actual proof.

CruelCoin

CruelCoin wrote: »

To be fair, maybe the africans and mid-easterns don't want to swap one desertified barren wasteland for another?

I spent just over a year in Queensland. Gorgeous countryside, and while there is a lot of arid/desert, Australia doesn't need a large population, and so with the buildup on the coastline, most people are living on that gorgeous countryside. The only real downside were the water restrictions, but you can find that in many countries.

I'd imagine they'd love to go to Oz if they could. Every expat/migrant I know who has spent time there (Asians, and westerners) simply raves about how great a country it is to live in. Which it is. It has its problems.. but then all countries do. Quite honestly, if I wasn't so fixated on Asia, I'd seriously consider going back and living there permanently.

CruelCoin

Deleted User wrote: »

I spent just over a year in Queensland. Gorgeous countryside, and while there is a lot of arid/desert, Australia doesn't need a large population, and so with the buildup on the coastline, most people are living on that gorgeous countryside. The only real downside were the water restrictions, but you can find that in many countries.

I'd imagine they'd love to go to Oz if they could. Every expat/migrant I know who has spent time there (Asians, and westerners) simply raves about how great a country it is to live in. Which it is. It has its problems.. but then all countries do. Quite honestly, if I wasn't so fixated on Asia, I'd seriously consider going back and living there permanently.

Oh i know, i was just joking.

I did that typical hippie road trip (volks beach bus with a matress in the back) and drove from Cairns down to Melbourne, up to Adelaide, over the bight, down through wine country and up again to Perth.
16000km in 6 weeks. Hell of a trip, and i'd do it again tomorrow. Stunning country, especially the blue mountains. Except for Brisbane, now that's a postercard ****hole.

Kivaro

Sky News this morning was interviewing a woman live on television on why 72% of the black community in the UK will unlikely get the Covid vaccine jab. One of the reasons she gave was because "We are delicate". Another reason was religion. How fair is it to the rest of UK society when one small segment of their community puts the majority at risk? Is that multiculturalism?

This could be viewed as a prime example of the breakdown of social cohesion that the Danish Prime Minister spoke about when describing the reasons why she wanted to stop all asylum seekers from coming to their country. Mette Frederiksen is Denmark's youngest ever prime minister at 41 and she is leader of the Social Democrats party. She obviously feels the pulse of the Danish nation and could hardly be described as a racist for the asylum policy she now wants pursued. That aspect of multiculturalism in Denmark has obviously failed.

In Ireland, the nation last spoke at our only chance to have a say in the discussion, when 80% of us voted against the anchor baby debacle that was occurring in the country at the time when thousands of mainly Africans were abusing our jus soli nationality law. I remember being told at the time that the majority of the nation would never support this change, but obviously they were wrong. I would expect a similar rejection of unqualified non-EU migration into Ireland by an overwhelming majority of the people here; irrespective of the protestations of a small noisy minority with their "I don't accept that" response. Given the chance to speak, the majority will reject it.

CruelCoin

CruelCoin wrote: »

Oh i know, i was just joking.

I did that typical hippie road trip (volks beach bus with a matress in the back) and drove from Cairns down to Melbourne, up to Adelaide, over the bight, down through wine country and up again to Perth.
16000km in 6 weeks. Hell of a trip, and i'd do it again tomorrow. Stunning country, especially the blue mountains. Except for Brisbane, now that's a postercard ****hole.

Strangely enough, Brisbane is one of my favorite places in Oz. I didn't do the backpacker gig.. I spent the whole time contracting as a credit controller/accounts...

Which is one of the reasons I'm so favorable towards the Australian immigration system. I went through it as a skilled migrant, and I saw the results (and the problems associated with earlier immigration policies).

CruelCoin

Deleted User wrote: »

Which is one of the reasons I'm so favorable towards the Australian immigration system. I went through it as a skilled migrant, and I saw the results (and the problems associated with earlier immigration policies).

I'd absolutely agree with you.

A points based system can be used to tweak skills/demographic immigration far better than any other system we have. It's long overdue.

Marcos

Wibbs wrote: »

None from Africa or the Middle East for a start. It seems they're biased towards east Asians and Whites.

On this, perhaps the issues with Sudanese & Somali street gangs in Melbourne have coloured their view and made them less likely to take in more.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-02/street-gangs-are-a-problem-in-melbourne-police-admit/9297984

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-01/african-gang-crime-out-of-control-in-melbourne-minister-says/9296476

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7823527/South-Sudanese-leader-says-gang-culture-Melbourne-teenager-stabbed-dead.html

Given the fact that authorities generally tend to look the other way when given half a chance, but this was referred to in parliament, it's fair to say that this was/is a serious issue.

Sydney has had a cohort of immigrants from Lebanon since the 1980's or so. But again that hasn't gone all well.

The Skaf gang rapes, where a gang led by Bilal and Mohammed Skaf raped 6 schoolgirls, including 1 attack where 14

raped a schoolgirl in a toilet block and taunted her about whether she liked it Leb style and called her an Aussie pig.

Or here where 2nd generation are caught between two stools, not feeling accepted in their new country and feel they are not Lebanese enough so are easy prey for gangs.
https://world.time.com/2013/10/11/in-sydney-disaffected-lebanese-kids-caught-in-spiraling-gang-violence/

As has been noted before this is a pattern that hits 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants to western countries, and one that we are beginning to see happen here.

So that's definitely a downside to multiculturalism in the form it's currently being pushed across the Western world.

We get some nice food, and some people can feel good about themselves so that's good. :rolleyes:

CtevenSrowder

Marcos wrote: »

On this, perhaps the issues with Sudanese & Somali street gangs in Melbourne have coloured their view and made them less likely to take in more.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-02/street-gangs-are-a-problem-in-melbourne-police-admit/9297984

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-01/african-gang-crime-out-of-control-in-melbourne-minister-says/9296476

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7823527/South-Sudanese-leader-says-gang-culture-Melbourne-teenager-stabbed-dead.html

Given the fact that authorities generally tend to look the other way when given half a chance, but this was referred to in parliament, it's fair to say that this was/is a serious issue.

Sydney has had a cohort of immigrants from Lebanon since the 1980's or so. But again that hasn't gone all well.

The Skaf gang rapes, where a gang led by Bilal and Mohammed Skaf raped 6 schoolgirls, including 1 attack where 14

Or here where 2nd generation are caught between two stools, not feeling accepted in their new country and feel they are not Lebanese enough so are easy prey for gangs.
https://world.time.com/2013/10/11/in-sydney-disaffected-lebanese-kids-caught-in-spiraling-gang-violence/

As has been noted before this is a pattern that hits 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants to western countries, and one that we are beginning to see happen here.

So that's definitely a downside to multiculturalism in the form it's currently being pushed across the Western world.

We get some nice food, and some people can feel good about themselves so that's good. :rolleyes:

"I think it's time he got out," former Crown prosecutor Margaret Cunneen, who put the gang behind bars, said of Mohammed Skaf last year.

"He's done his time."

His lawyer Omar Juweinat agreed.

"There must be a point in a prisoner's life where enough time is enough time. Mr Skaf is well beyond his non-parole period, has undertaken every conceivable course and was diagnosed with a very serious illness," Mr Juweinat told the Herald earlier this year.

They can **** right off. He should never be released. Is he Australian, can he be deported back to Lebanon?