What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Wibbs

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m here racking my brain to think of any possible differences... and I really can’t think of any, or why you imagine there might be any differences between Muslims in the UK, and Muslims in Ireland, or what those differences might be. I expect the outcomes will be exactly the same as their UK counterparts - they integrate into any society only as much as they want to, but for the most part keep to themselves among their own communities, which is what a multicultural society actually is in reality.

Actually there can be differences alright OEJ. Generalisation alert of course, but a Muslim professional from say Malaysia will be different in outlook to a less well educated Muslim from say Pakistan. That is not to say Pakistani Muslims are less well educated. I personally know one who has more degrees than a thermometer.

Justin Credible Darts

I am still waiting to hear how immigrant muslims in Ireland would differ from immigrant muslims in the UK and other european countries

I love to laugh my bollocks off at his reasoning to this.

RobbieTheRobber

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I am still waiting to hear how immigrant muslims in Ireland would differ from immigrant muslims in the UK and other european countries

I love to laugh my bollocks off at his reasoning to this.

Hahaha I'm not wasting my time putting any more info up here go fúckin jump.
Where is that quote where I called you racist any way?

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

If I'm lying I am in good company.

Please point out one instance where I lied or repeatedly misrepresented something you have written. Good luck with that, though with your powers of misrepresentation....

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Is this the question you want me to answer?

Its really not an answerable question though is it.

Actually it is.

First answer me this do all Muslims live in these so called enclaves in europe?

If they don't then where do all the Muslim people who don't live in them live?

You want me to find you places in Europe where something doesn't exist.
My Muslim neighbour does not live in an enclave and is not lower socioeconomic well at least not judging by the house prices around here.

You're deflecting again with the enclave stuff. I suggested we ignore that for a moment(though I did get into the subject) and answer:

Can you find me any European multicultural nation where those of African and ME origins(and nomadic peoples) don't tend to cluster at the lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder.

You can't. Statistical facts I'm afraid so you're on a road to nowhere anyway.

Knowing singular or clusters of examples of middle class [insert demographic here] is not reflective of wider demographics. There are plenty of examples of Black African Americans who are highly successful and rich beyond the dreams of avarice. Does this then follow that Black African Americans are not seriously disadvantaged as a group and more likely to be poor, unemployed and in the criminal justice system than White Americans? Of course it doesn't. You may have noticed those BLM marches going on. They aren't doing it for the craic like.

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

Please point out one instance where I lied or repeatedly misrepresented something you have written. Good luck with that, though with your powers of misrepresentation....

Actually it is.
You're deflecting again with the enclave stuff. I suggested we ignore that for a moment(though I did get into the subject) and answer:

Can you find me any European multicultural nation where those of African and ME origins(and nomadic peoples) don't tend to cluster at the lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder.

You can't. Statistical facts I'm afraid so you're on a road to nowhere anyway.

Knowing singular or clusters of examples of middle class [insert demographic here] is not reflective of wider demographics. There are plenty of examples of Black African Americans who are highly successful and rich beyond the dreams of avarice. Does this then follow that Black African Americans are not seriously disadvantaged as a group and more likely to be poor, unemployed and in the criminal justice system than White Americans? Of course it doesn't. You may have noticed those BLM marches going on. They aren't doing it for the craic like.

But aren't you setting me up for a fall with that question wibbs?

Wouldn't we need to split muslim community into different groups to account for one group being resident for a period of time (and perhaps to have benefited form the host countries better economy and jobs in a country) and the other to account for recent immigrants who we would naturally expect to fall into that the lower socio economic group.

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

Please point out one instance where I lied or repeatedly misrepresented something you have written. Good luck with that, though with your powers of misrepresentation....

Actually it is.
You're deflecting again with the enclave stuff.

Wibbs you put the enclave word in the question you asked, not me. You!

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

But aren't you setting me up for a fall with that question wibbs?

You're assuming I'm not arguing in good faith, which is interesting. A provable reality based on statistics is not a fail. It's an acknowledgement of a fact. It's what makes for good questions, which are required if we seek good answers that aren't simplistic feel good optimism. The same facts lay bare the empty promise of "diversity" and multiculturalism for some demographics and how it has failed them and the host countries and over generations with it.

Wouldn't we need to split muslim community into different groups to account for one group being resident for a period of time (and perhaps to have benefited form the host countries better economy and jobs in a country) and the other to account for recent immigrants who we would naturally expect to fall into that the lower socio economic group.

Most certainly they are factors. People who happen to be Muslim coming here through the usual legal channels to secure a job they are qualified for, are a very different demographic than Muslims coming here often illegally or quasi legally underqualified and without a job. Goes for Africans or any other group too.

One eyed Jack

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Can you find me any European multicultural nation where those of African and ME origins(and nomadic peoples) don't tend to cluster at the lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder and don't tend to set up urban enclaves?

Is this the question you want me to answer?

Its really not an answerable question though is it.
First answer me this do all Muslims live in these so called enclaves in europe?

If they don't then where do all the Muslim people who don't live in them live?

You want me to find you places in Europe where something doesn't exist.
My Muslim neighbour does not live in an enclave and is not lower socioeconomic well at least not judging by the house prices around here.

Ahh Rob come on! It’s an easily answered question, all you have to do is think of any country in the Western world where immigrants don’t tend to live in socioeconomically deprived communities. It’s not a chicken and egg question - immigrants tend to live in areas which are already socioeconomically deprived because they’re among their own people.

There’s no suggestion that ALL immigrants live in areas of socioeconomic deprivation, rather that they tend to live in socioeconomically deprived areas. Can you think of a country in the Western world where this isn’t the case? Your neighbour doesn’t actually demonstrate the opposite of that trend. You were able to cite evidence from the national census earlier in the thread, that would give a fuller picture of a trend in Irish society -

Census figures raise concerns of ethnic segregation in schools

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

You're assuming I'm not arguing in good faith, which is interesting. A provable reality based on statistics is not a fail. It's an acknowledgement of a fact. It's what makes for good questions, which are required if we seek good answers that aren't simplistic feel good optimism. The same facts lay bare the empty promise of "diversity" and multiculturalism for some demographics and how it has failed them and the host countries and over generations with it.

Most certainly they are factors. People who happen to be Muslim coming here through the usual legal channels to secure a job they are qualified for, are a very different demographic than Muslims coming here often illegally or quasi legally underqualified and without a job. Goes for Africans or any other group too.

OK so let's pretend we are discussing this in good faith. And lets just use our closest neighbour the UK.
Do you know of a study on the socio economic status of British born Muslims. That would be a very good place for us to start looking at the question you are asking.
I will be honest apart from a Muslim council report from 2011 I can't find anything like this to begin looking at the data.

Wibbs

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I am still waiting to hear how immigrant muslims in Ireland would differ from immigrant muslims in the UK and other european countries

There are differences and some can be quite large. Bosnian Muslims would be quite different to Saudi Muslims for example. The former are a lot more progressive for a start. It can vary over time too. Go back 60 years to Constantinople and you would see very few veiled women. You'd probably see more Irish women wearing headscarves. In Beirut at the same time you could have seen women in miniskirts. Same with Iran and Iraq and even Afghanistan in the cities.

Justin Credible Darts

Wibbs wrote: »

There are differences and some can be quite large. Bosnian Muslims would be quite different to Saudi Muslims for example. The former are a lot more progressive for a start. It can vary over time too. Go back 60 years to Constantinople and you would see very few veiled women. You'd probably see more Irish women wearing headscarves. In Beirut at the same time you could have seen women in miniskirts. Same with Iran and Iraq and even Afghanistan in the cities.

I get that, there are different type and cultures with a shared religion, my point is Robbie thinks all the poor muslims will somehow act different in Ireland than what they would do in the UK.


There is no evidence to suggest otherwise, all he can offer is an opinion.

RobbieTheRobber

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ahh Rob come on! It’s an easily answered question, all you have to do is think of any country in the Western world where immigrants don’t tend to live in socioeconomically deprived communities. It’s not a chicken and egg question - immigrants tend to live in areas which are already socioeconomically deprived because they’re among their own people.

There’s no suggestion that ALL immigrants live in areas of socioeconomic deprivation, rather that they tend to live in socioeconomically deprived areas. Can you think of a country in the Western world where this isn’t the case? Your neighbour doesn’t actually demonstrate the opposite of that trend. You were able to cite evidence from the national census earlier in the thread, that would give a fuller picture of a trend in Irish society -

Census figures raise concerns of ethnic segregation in schools

OEJ to be fair there were issues around school admissions policies in Ireland. I spoke of this in the thread earlier. The government has acted on this very issue.

The government has removed the baptismal barrier and the school waiting list system. Which has hugely obvious negative connotations for immigrant getting places in local or desirable schools. I mean surely this one isn't even just me trying to argue my side.

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

OK so let's pretend we are discussing this in good faith. And lets just use our closest neighbour the UK.
Do you know of a study on the socio economic status of British born Muslims. That would be a very good place for us to start looking at the question you are asking.
I will be honest apart from a Muslim council report from 2011 I can't find anything like this to begin looking at the data.

Here's one on British born Muslim women.

Muslim women are the most economically disadvantaged group in the UK, according to a report issued by the UK House of Commons.

Another showing Muslims are the most disadvantaged group by faith.

It found Muslims had the highest rate of unemployment, the poorest health, the most disability and fewest educational qualifications. In most respects Muslim women fared worse than Muslim men.

Now the latter is an old report. Here's a more recent one from three years ago. And another from 2016 Unemployment rates among Muslims are more than double that of any other community in the UK Here's a breakdown by faith in London.

And as for integration among these more disadvantaged groups And frankly I'm not surprised. I'd be pissed off too and looking for answers and a semblance of stability in community. Among the younger generations they know they've been sold a pup with "multiculturalism". They know they'll never be quite British, or French, or German enough. No wonder some go radical. As I said I might in their shoes. And much of the same kinda things goes for Black Africans in Europe.

Kivaro

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Anyway the sound of my posts have echoed around the chambers of this thread long enough now.

Good luck in the next election lads, I very much hope whatever anti immigrant political party you decide to support in that election is as successful as the last.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I am a lone voice for one side of an argument when I leave the argument that will leave only a single side of the argument discussing the point with its self if that is not an echo chamber or hollow debate then what is it?


Anyway I'm off to live my multicultural life with my multicultural wife and children where just so you know we are not living in some radicalised enclave in Ireland.

And here's us thinking you were sailing away into the sunset with those departing shots ..... many pages ago.

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

Here's one on British born Muslim women.

Muslim women are the most economically disadvantaged group in the UK, according to a report issued by the UK House of Commons.

Another showing Muslims are the most disadvantaged group by faith.

It found Muslims had the highest rate of unemployment, the poorest health, the most disability and fewest educational qualifications. In most respects Muslim women fared worse than Muslim men.

Now the latter is an old report. Here's a more recent one from three years ago. And another from 2016 Unemployment rates among Muslims are more than double that of any other community in the UK Here's a breakdown by faith in London.

And as for integration among these more disadvantaged groups And frankly I'm not surprised. I'd be pissed off too and looking for answers and a semblance of stability in community. Among the younger generations they know they've been sold a pup with "multiculturalism". They know they'll never be quite British, or French, or German enough. No wonder some go radical. As I said I might in their shoes. And much of the same kinda things goes for Black Africans in Europe.

Look wibbs im not here to defend everything about Muslims I have consistently argued against religious influence. But using an article about Muslim women being more likely to be stay at home mothers than other faiths is hardly surprising. In fact due to the mysoginistic nature of that religion its to be expected.
Another article is about Muslims being disadvantaged in looking for jobs.


I'm reading through the Muslim Council of the UK report now from 2016.

Ideally I'd like a multivariate study by an independent body to try and understand a bit more of the detail around muslims in the UK.

RobbieTheRobber

Kivaro wrote: »

And here's us thinking you were sailing away into the sunset with those departing shots ..... many pages ago.

You love me really Kivaro, you'll probably name your next kid after me.
Roberta if it's a girl.

Kivaro

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

You love me really Kivaro, you'll probably name your next kid after me.
Roberta if it's a girl.

Actually, I thought your last post about religion was quite good. If you stick with that process, then you may well be a good dissenting voice on the thread.

Wibbs

I'm certainly not against Muslims as a group. I know a few and bloody sound they are too and a couple are quite religious with it.

My first position has always been throughout the thread that I quite simply don't believe modern multiculturalism works for quite the number of demographics and the more people that are involved the more problems come along and the positives are extremely vague and limited when we look deeper at it. I believe because we've been told it's a positive time and time again, mainly by nations that have had to deal with it because of historical circumstances and are trying to paper over the cracks, we mostly believe it as an Established Truth(tm) and don't look below the veil(no pun) of that. Established Truths are present in all cultures and need to be constantly questioned because when we stop asking questions we assume the answer and nothing changes. Never mind that a lot of Established Truths of the past turned out to be very wrong, even horrors and only by being questioned did anything change.

As far as host countries go, IMHO they actually suffer less for the most part, save for the lower socioeconomic natives who are usually at the sharp end. The middle classes can avoid the negatives almost entirely, like many social ills. It's actually among the migrant demographics and their descendants who suffer from this politic the most. It's not a majority of White people protesting BLM and the like. And what White people do are usually middle class who go home to the burbs of an evening. They may feel they're doing the right things and being supportive and fair enough, they're doing something, but they're also part of the problem.

One eyed Jack

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

OEJ to be fair there were issues around school admissions policies in Ireland. I spoke of this in the thread earlier. The government has acted on this very issue.

The government has removed the baptismal barrier and the school waiting list system. Which has hugely obvious negative connotations for immigrant getting places in local or desirable schools. I mean surely this one isn't even just me trying to argue my side.

I know we spoke of it earlier, and I pointed out that those barriers you spoke of were more of an issue for Irish parents than immigrants. I also pointed out that the siblings rule was more of a barrier than either of the first two in schools which were oversubscribed.

It’s not just you that makes the argument about the baptism barrier and waiting lists as the reasons why immigrants living in socioeconomically deprived areas choose to enrol their children in local schools which are categorised as DEIS schools, as opposed to schools which are categorised as desirable schools in other areas among Irish parents living in the same socioeconomically deprived areas as immigrants.

The arguments about ‘barriers’ are predicated upon assuming that immigrants have no agency of their own, because the thought of immigrants wanting nothing to do with them is a foreign concept for some people.

CruelCoin

Wibbs wrote: »

There are differences and some can be quite large. Bosnian Muslims would be quite different to Saudi Muslims for example. The former are a lot more progressive for a start. It can vary over time too. Go back 60 years to Constantinople and you would see very few veiled women. You'd probably see more Irish women wearing headscarves. In Beirut at the same time you could have seen women in miniskirts. Same with Iran and Iraq and even Afghanistan in the cities.

Silly question maybe, but we know that entire countries/regions are dominated by certain sects of islam.

Is there any data showing socio-economic difference between the shia and sunni and wahhabists, etc?

I mean, we can categorically say that mennonites (christians) are seriously less well off than catholics or protestants, for example.

Kivaro

And with these very interesting posts, this is how the topic of multiculturalism evolves .......

One eyed Jack

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Look wibbs im not here to defend everything about Muslims I have consistently argued against religious influence. But using an article about Muslim women being more likely to be stay at home mothers than other faiths is hardly surprising. In fact due to the mysoginistic nature of that religion its to be expected.

I understand that you view religious influence as a negative, and that’s fair enough. I think though it’s also colouring your opinion of Islam as a particularly misogynistic religion, but the article doesn’t say anything about Muslim women being more likely to be stay at home mothers than any other faiths?


12.8 per cent of Muslims are unemployed, compared to 5.4 per cent of the general population.

Within this figure, a significant gender divide emerges, as 65 per cent of unemployed Muslims are women.

It is unknown if this gender disparity is due to Muslim women being more visible due to wearing more overt religious attire such as a hijab, meaning that employers are able to identify their religion more readily and subsequently discriminate against them. Or conversely, if cultural attitudes regarding gender in Muslim communities mean they are more reluctant for female community members to work.


It’s not a religious thing, nor is it based upon misogyny, it’s simply families making choices for themselves to suit their own economic interests, which are reflected in national statistics. Similar trends are observed in Irish society. For example -


Nearly all of the people (94.3%) who were looking after home or family in 2019 were women, although the number of men in this grouping more than doubled in the ten years up to 2019, rising from 7,000 to 19,900.


Women and Men in Ireland 2019


Edit: I knew that figure of 19,000 above looked a bit off, because I distinctly remember the number of men who were looking after home or family in the 2016 census being half that figure. I wasn’t wrong either -

Women & Men in Ireland 2016


According to that infograph, the figure was 9,200 for men, and 445,500 for women (2% were men, 98% women).

RobbieTheRobber

I fully accept that women are more likely to stay at home. In no way am I disputing this. But as I will attempt to show below Muslim women in the UK lag significantly behind other women in employment.

The MCB (Muslim Council of Britain) say

Factors attributable to this lower employment rate include an age demographic of Muslim women with young families and religio-cultural values. Some factors for this lower employment rate affect all women, including accessing affordable childcare or gender discrimination.

So I'm not making this up One Eye the Muslim community in the UK themselves admit its potentially religio-cultural values at play in Muslim women's low employment rate.

And according to the MCB its clearly not an anti asian woman thing because both Sikhs and Hindu females have much higher employment rates in the UK.

To pull some of the numbers from the underlying sheet
Muslim women in employment 28%
Overall women in employment 51%

Hindu women in employment 50%+
Sikh women in employment 50%+

That's a statistically significant difference we need to account for in employment rates and especially accounting for the difference between other mainly ethnic Asian religious groups and even I have to admit its not as simple as plain old racism because of the high employment rates for other mainly Asian religious groups.
So its either anti muslim discrimination, religio\social issues or some other variable (And obviously a combination of these).

http://www.mcb.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/BMINBriefing5_Oct2015.pdf

Cordell

I can't touch pork, I can't shake hands with men, I can't touch alcohol, I need to pray 5 times a day, my man speaks for me everywhere, please don't discriminate me and invent some jobs that fit all these constrains.

RobbieTheRobber

Cordell wrote: »

I can't touch pork, I can't shake hands with men, I can't touch alcohol, I need to pray 5 times a day, my man speaks for me everywhere, please don't discriminate me and invent some jobs that fit all these constrains.

Are you arguing that the reason is due at least in some part to misogyny on the part of people of Muslim faith Cordell?

Cordell

I'm arguing the same that you said, "potentially religio-cultural values at play in Muslim women's low employment rate"
In other words, their values impedes them to properly function and contribute in a western society. I would also argue that they need to change their values to fit the western society they chose to live in rather than the other way around, but that may not be acceptable in some circles

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

But using an article about Muslim women being more likely to be stay at home mothers than other faiths is hardly surprising. In fact due to the mysoginistic nature of that religion its to be expected.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I understand that you view religious influence as a negative, and that’s fair enough. I think though it’s also colouring your opinion of Islam as a particularly misogynistic religion, but the article doesn’t say anything about Muslim women being more likely to be stay at home mothers than any other faiths?

Cordell wrote: »

I'm arguing the same that you said, "potentially religio-cultural values at play in Muslim women's low employment rate"
In other words, their values impedes them to properly function and contribute in a western society. I would also argue that they need to change their values to fit the western society they chose to live in rather than the other way around, but that may not be acceptable in some circles

Indeed Cordell which was kind of my original point about Islam and women in employment. It was One Eye who seemed to be disputing this was due to Islamic faith.

weldoninhio

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Those are your words wibbs I never expressed that sentiment. But I believe European nations for their own benefit should aid in the reconstruction of Africa after the damage some nations assisted in creating in that continent both socially and economically.

Or we can leave it to behemoth of far east asia (China) to steal in and further plunder the continent of its natural resources.

1) How much money has Europe pumped into Africa over the past 30/40 years to try to help them develop?? What are the tangible results of the billions we have sent?

2) It is not our job to police Africa, if they are unhappy with China "plundering" it, then it's up to them to put a stop to it. Has any African country made a complaint to the UN or anyone about Chinese input in Africa??

Gatling

weldoninhio wrote: »

1) How much money has Europe pumped into Africa over the past 30/40 years to try to help them develop?? What are the tangible results of the billions we have sent?

Hundreds of billions and nothing changes , population are still starving ,no economic growth or real education improvements ,but armies are growing and buying more and more equipment , but yet EU states and future afield are sending billions in foreign Aid .
We've soldiers families reliant on welfare to feed their families here ,
India is another example Huge economic developments and growth ,space programs, military development ,yet they have a begging cap out to help feed their street children.

One eyed Jack

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I fully accept that women are more likely to stay at home. In no way am I disputing this. But as I will attempt to show below Muslim women in the UK lag significantly behind other women in employment.

The MCB (Muslim Council of Britain) say


So I'm not making this up One Eye the Muslim community in the UK themselves admit its potentially religio-cultural values at play in Muslim women's low employment rate.

And according to the MCB its clearly not an anti asian woman thing because both Sikhs and Hindu females have much higher employment rates in the UK.

Not being funny with you Rob but I’d take those statistics from the MCB with more than just a pinch of salt. They don’t, for example, include the population of Ahmadiyya Muslims in the UK (30,000 of them), because the MCB doesn’t recognise Ahmadiyya Muslims to begin with -


The Muslim Council of Britain is failing Ahmadis like Asad Shah


You also have to ask what they mean exactly by ‘religio-cultural’ factors when on the one hand they appear to be using statistics and stereotypes to bolster their advocacy work when it is to their advantage, and then when they wish to claim discrimination based upon stereotypes against Muslims in UK society, they use the same arguments to suggest that there is no evidence to justify those stereotypes of Muslim women in the UK -


BBC drama Bodyguard was among the shows criticised by the report's authors. They said the programme "pandered to stereotypes of Muslim women who wear the hijab as oppressed or subservient". The BBC has been contacted for a response.


Muslim Council of Great Britain campaigns for 'fairer' media coverage


The left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing.