What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RobbieTheRobber

weldoninhio wrote: »

1) How much money has Europe pumped into Africa over the past 30/40 years to try to help them develop?? What are the tangible results of the billions we have sent?

2) It is not our job to police Africa, if they are unhappy with China "plundering" it, then it's up to them to put a stop to it. Has any African country made a complaint to the UN or anyone about Chinese input in Africa??

You know Weldoninhio even Bono the charity champion agrees with you that simple aid to africa is not the answer. And I don't dispute that with you or Bono.

There are other methods to help aid the development of the African continents economy though such as improving some of the barriers to trade to allow the african economy to develop. But I'm not going to start enumerating all the possibilities here because I don't know them or the potential negative connotations and I dot want to take this thread on another tangent.
But I am not arguing that financial aid (Most often diverted and misused ) is the answer.

RobbieTheRobber

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Not being funny with you Rob but I’d take those statistics from the MCB with more than just a pinch of salt. They don’t, for example, include the population of Ahmadiyya Muslims in the UK (30,000 of them), because the MCB doesn’t recognise Ahmadiyya Muslims to begin with -


The Muslim Council of Britain is failing Ahmadis like Asad Shah


You also have to ask what they mean exactly by ‘religio-cultural’ factors when on the one hand they appear to be using statistics and stereotypes to bolster their advocacy work when it is to their advantage, and then when they wish to claim discrimination based upon stereotypes against Muslims in UK society, they use the same arguments to suggest that there is no evidence to justify those stereotypes of Muslim women in the UK -


BBC drama Bodyguard was among the shows criticised by the report's authors. They said the programme "pandered to stereotypes of Muslim women who wear the hijab as oppressed or subservient". The BBC has been contacted for a response.


Muslim Council of Great Britain campaigns for 'fairer' media coverage


The left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing.

One eye I am not defending the MCB or holding them up as an honest body. I would like a better study from a more independent body too.
I think you already know my feelings on religion and Islam in particular is not positive so by no means am I championing the MCB.

weldoninhio

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

You know Weldoninhio even Bono the charity champion agrees with you that simple aid to africa is not the answer. And I don't dispute that with you or Bono.

There are other methods to help aid the development of the African continents economy though such as improving some of the barriers to trade to allow the african economy to develop. But I'm not going to start enumerating all the possibilities here because I don't know them or the potential negative connotations and I dot want to take this thread on another tangent.
But I am not arguing that financial aid (Most often diverted and misused ) is the answer.

So how should we aid them?

RobbieTheRobber

weldoninhio wrote: »

So how should we aid them?

Start a thread on African aid and I'll jump in with you and we can discuss. This thread has more than enough meanders and seemingly I'm expected to be the sole spokesperson for the defence and its getting hard for me to keep track of all the different things people want me to defend.

One eyed Jack

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

One eye I am not defending the MCB or holding them up as an honest body. I would like a better study from a more independent body too.
I think you already know my feelings on religion and Islam in particular is not positive so by no means am I championing the MCB.

Oh I know you’re not defending them or championing them, I’m just cautioning against using them as a credible source of evidence to support any particular point of view. They’re an advocacy organisation like many advocacy organisations which claim to represent people, while in reality they seek to further their own interests.

The perception of women being subjugated is often proffered as an explanation for the discrepancy in men and women’s employment rates or unemployment rates or men’s and women’s participation in the labour market, but it’s a position which is predicated upon an assumption which is part of a political ideology in which women are assumed to lack agency, as though women cannot decide for themselves that they do not wish to participate in the labour market and do not prefer the more traditional role of taking care of their families over a ‘career’.

The reasons for it are cultural, no different than other cultures in which traditionally it is women who take care of their families while men are expected to provide for their families. Both men and women fulfil different and complementary roles within the traditional family structure, and this is demonstrated across all cultures globally. It’s again a cohesive factor in multiculturalism, but it is fundamentally an affront to ‘progressive’ ideologues thinking - people who have their own ideas about ‘gender equality’ and so on.

weldoninhio

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Start a thread on African aid and I'll jump in with you and we can discuss. This thread has more than enough meanders and seemingly I'm expected to be the sole spokesperson for the defence and its getting hard for me to keep track of all the different things people want me to defend.

You made a statement, I'm asking for follow up on how to implement that. It's very much to do with multiculturalism as if the African countries were prosperous, the strain of inward migration would be a lot less. There would also be opportunities for Europeans to improve Africa by multi-culturing it.

RobbieTheRobber

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Oh I know you’re not defending them or championing them, I’m just cautioning against using them as a credible source of evidence to support any particular point of view. They’re an advocacy organisation like many advocacy organisations which claim to represent people, while in reality they seek to further their own interests.

The perception of women being subjugated is often proffered as an explanation for the discrepancy in men and women’s employment rates or unemployment rates or men’s and women’s participation in the labour market, but it’s a position which is predicated upon an assumption which is part of a political ideology in which women are assumed to lack agency, as though women cannot decide for themselves that they do not wish to participate in the labour market and do not prefer the more traditional role of taking care of their families over a ‘career’.

The reasons for it are cultural, no different than other cultures in which traditionally it is women who take care of their families while men are expected to provide for their families. Both men and women fulfil different and complementary roles within the traditional family structure, and this is demonstrated across all cultures globally. It’s again a cohesive factor in multiculturalism, but it is fundamentally an affront to ‘progressive’ ideologues thinking - people who have their own ideas about ‘gender equality’ and so on.

We are in agreement on this One Eye no argument from me that it is as least partly as a result of Muslim culture. Absolutely none.

But in terms of assessing employment uptake of Muslims in European countries particularly the UK we would have to account for this cultural difference when looking at the raw numbers of muslims employed in their host countries and accept that there is low participation in the labour market by Muslim women and that this will skew Muslim rates of employment in those stats.

Which is what got us to this point talking about low muslim participation in the job market. I think.

RobbieTheRobber

weldoninhio wrote: »

You made a statement, I'm asking for follow up on how to implement that. It's very much to do with multiculturalism as if the African countries were prosperous, the strain of inward migration would be a lot less. There would also be opportunities for Europeans to improve Africa by multi-culturing it.

Are you suggesting helping Africa might help us?

weldoninhio

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Are you suggesting helping Africa might help us?

We've been helping Africa for years, as already said, it didn't work. I'm asking your opinion on what we should be doing differently as you stated "I believe European nations for their own benefit should aid in the reconstruction of Africa after the damage some nations assisted in creating in that continent both socially and economically."

I believe that if Africa was prosperous it would help us, if every country in the world was prosperous, even better. I'm asking you to tell us what you believe Europe should be doing as per your statement above, without impinging on any African country's sovereignty of course.

RobbieTheRobber

weldoninhio wrote: »

We've been helping Africa for years, as already said, it didn't work. I'm asking your opinion on what we should be doing differently as you stated "I believe European nations for their own benefit should aid in the reconstruction of Africa after the damage some nations assisted in creating in that continent both socially and economically."

I believe that if Africa was prosperous it would help us, if every country in the world was prosperous, even better. I'm asking you to tell us what you believe Europe should be doing as per your statement above, without impinging on any African country's sovereignty of course.

Perhaps the EU could look at the possibility of easing some trade barriers to possibly assist the African economy in developing on its own. As an example. Rather than just development aid which I agree has not been very successful in developing the African economy. In fact is often misused by despotic regimes and can make the situation even worse in Africa.

pauly58

It's been a disaster in the UK so why would anyone think it would be any different here.

pauly58

pauly58 wrote: »

It's been a disaster in the UK so why would anyone think it would be any different here.

why do you think it is a disaster in the UK?

Fog Hat

pauly58 wrote: »

It's been a disaster in the UK so why would anyone think it would be any different here.

It's been a disaster in every Western European country:

Pakistani rape gangs in England
Taharrush attacks in Germany
Muslims beheading people in France

What do the native Europeans get in return for all this?

weldoninhio

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Perhaps the EU could look at the possibility of easing some trade barriers to possibly assist the African economy in developing on its own. As an example. Rather than just development aid which I agree has not been very successful in developing the African economy. In fact is often misused by despotic regimes and can make the situation even worse in Africa.

What trade barriers? Most imports from Africa into the EU are duty free.

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2017/november/tradoc_156399.pdf

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

why do you think it is a disaster in the UK?

Ethnic enclaves. There are suburbs in the UK which don't appear English/British anymore. Social friction and friction/violence between groups based on race.

If it was any kind of success, surely by this time in the UK situation, we would be seeing a near complete acceptance by people of other racial groups? Wouldn't we seeing a greater degree of integration and/or assimilation?

RobbieTheRobber

weldoninhio wrote: »

What trade barriers? Most imports from Africa into the EU are duty free.

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2017/november/tradoc_156399.pdf

Indeed these are exactly the trade agreements I am talking about.
But its not all countries and not all goods despite the name.
And I never stated Europe was not doing anything to help I simply stated that Europe should help. I believe the EU project is overall a positive for the world.


https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02012R0978-20200812&from=EN

https://ec.europa.eu/international-partnerships/acp-eu-partnership_en

Another way to assist the development of Africa would be rather than export raw materials (look at your link for how much is exported) for production elsewhere instead continue to increase the Foreign direct investment in manufacturing in Africa.

https://unctad.org/news/foreign-direct-investment-africa-defies-global-slump-rises-11

https://unctad.org/press-material/facts-figures-0

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Ethnic enclaves. There are suburbs in the UK which don't appear English/British anymore. Social friction and friction/violence between groups based on race.

If it was any kind of success, surely by this time in the UK situation, we would be seeing a near complete acceptance by people of other racial groups? Wouldn't we seeing a greater degree of integration and/or assimilation?

I know many many areas where there are huge amounts of non nationals living together ( in the UK) those areas are what they are, there is no issue with them. I don't see why there should be?
If there is friction based on race, then it is a racist minority.

By integration, do you mean giving up their own culture to become more 'British'? why would they have to do that?

as far as I can see there is literally thousands of non nationals living alongside British people who all get along perfectly well.
Are there issues in some places? I have no doubt there are, but there are issues everywhere

fantaiscool

bubblypop wrote: »

I know many many areas where there are huge amounts of non nationals living together ( in the UK) those areas are what they are, there is no issue with them. I don't see why there should be?
If there is friction based on race, then it is a racist minority.

By integration, do you mean giving up their own culture to become more 'British'? why would they have to do that?

It does amaze me when it can be stated as fact that there is racial tension everywhere in the UK and it's so abundant. These people completely ignore the vast amounts of situations where people of different ethnicity are doing fine together.

weldoninhio

bubblypop wrote: »

I know many many areas where there are huge amounts of non nationals living together ( in the UK) those areas are what they are, there is no issue with them. I don't see why there should be?
If there is friction based on race, then it is a racist minority.

By integration, do you mean giving up their own culture to become more 'British'? why would they have to do that?

as far as I can see there is literally thousands of non nationals living alongside British people who all get along perfectly well.
Are there issues in some places? I have no doubt there are, but there are issues everywhere

Because they are living in Britain. That's kind of obvious. If i go to someone else's house I don't put my feet up on their coffee table, because "that's what we do in my house". If I wanna do what I do in my house, I'll head home to my own house to do it. I wouldn't go to someone elses house and demand they follow my rules.

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

Because they are living in Britain. That's kind of obvious. If i go to someone else's house I don't put my feet up on their coffee table, because "that's what we do in my house". If I wanna do what I do in my house, I'll head home to my own house to do it. I wouldn't go to someone elses house and demand they follow my rules.

the poster talked about integration, I wanted to know what he meant by that.
If you visit your English friend in his house do you take up Morris dancing?

Is there some suggestion that they do not follow rules because they stick to their own culture?

ek motor

Fog Hat wrote: »

It's been a disaster in every Western European country:

Pakistani rape gangs in England
Taharrush attacks in Germany
Muslims beheading people in France

What do the native Europeans get in return for all this?

Cultural enrichment ie more expensive housing , lower wages, increased pressure on healthcare systems, oh and new and diverse takeaways .

mynamejeff

weldoninhio wrote: »

Because they are living in Britain. That's kind of obvious. If i go to someone else's house I don't put my feet up on their coffee table, because "that's what we do in my house". If I wanna do what I do in my house, I'll head home to my own house to do it. I wouldn't go to someone elses house and demand they follow my rules.

it a wee bit more complex than that but not much more.

if you go to another county you have to adapt to its laws and customs but you retain our own culture,
Irish and Italians in America for example. of course there is criminality and negative aspects to a culture.

but in African and Islamic culture the differences are so extreme that there is not viable fit with western culture.

Some people who come from such places and want to adapt do well in many western nations and are more or less welcome,

those who don't obviously are a major problem

Gatling

weldoninhio wrote: »

Because they are living in Britain. That's kind of obvious. If i go to someone else's house I don't put my feet up on their coffee table, because "that's what we do in my house". If I wanna do what I do in my house, I'll head home to my own house to do it. I wouldn't go to someone elses house and demand they follow my rules.

Wasn't there a situation in England where Muslims were protesting outside local pub trying to get them shutdown because they considered it offensive to them ,
Trying to dictate what can be or cannot be taught in schools ,

None of it makes sense , why move it a different country and then try to force your beliefs on others who don't follow your beliefs or ideology, and if anyone tries to speak up play the race and islamopobia cards

jmreire

weldoninhio wrote: »

What trade barriers? Most imports from Africa into the EU are duty free.

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2017/november/tradoc_156399.pdf

Just to put it a bit in context regarding Africa. Historically, it has been robbed blind, if not by outsiders, then from within. But despite all of that, its still a very wealthy Continent. Properly managed, it would be a magnet for inward immigration. Yet its not, and while some parts ( Kenya for one) are pulling ahead in the economics league , most are not and this is due in no small measure to corruption. Its its own worst enemy in this regard, and this is one of the reason's why international aid has failed over the years.

Jim2007

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

There are other methods to help aid the development of the African continents economy though such as improving some of the barriers to trade to allow the african economy to develop.

They already have tariff free trade, in fact better than the UK has......




https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2017/november/tradoc_156399.pdf

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

I know many many areas where there are huge amounts of non nationals living together ( in the UK) those areas are what they are, there is no issue with them. I don't see why there should be?
If there is friction based on race, then it is a racist minority.

By integration, do you mean giving up their own culture to become more 'British'? why would they have to do that?

as far as I can see there is literally thousands of non nationals living alongside British people who all get along perfectly well.
Are there issues in some places? I have no doubt there are, but there are issues everywhere

Female genital mutilation. Honour killings. Grooming gangs.

There are some serious problems in the UK. People might have to share buses, tubes etc but that doesn't mean they like each other or particularly enjoy living next to each other.

It's like Ireland with the traveller community. They are the same as everyone else, and yet, they are not the same as everyone else. Problems come about from enclaves of people who view themselves as different.

RobbieTheRobber

Late to the party Jim See below.

Jim2007 wrote: »

They already have tariff free trade, in fact better than the UK has......

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2017/november/tradoc_156399.pdf

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Indeed these are exactly the trade agreements I am talking about.
But its not all countries and not all goods despite the name.
And I never stated Europe was not doing anything to help I simply stated that Europe should help. I believe the EU project is overall a positive for the world.


https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02012R0978-20200812&from=EN

https://ec.europa.eu/international-partnerships/acp-eu-partnership_en

Another way to assist the development of Africa would be rather than export raw materials (look at your link for how much is exported) for production elsewhere instead continue to increase the Foreign direct investment in manufacturing in Africa.

https://unctad.org/news/foreign-direct-investment-africa-defies-global-slump-rises-11

https://unctad.org/press-material/facts-figures-0

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

as far as I can see there is literally thousands of non nationals living alongside British people who all get along perfectly well.
Are there issues in some places? I have no doubt there are, but there are issues everywhere

fantaiscool wrote:

It does amaze me when it can be stated as fact that there is racial tension everywhere in the UK and it's so abundant. These people completely ignore the vast amounts of situations where people of different ethnicity are doing fine together.

haha... you're both deflecting away from the main point. If multiculturalism was a success in the UK would we be seeing the racism and racial violence that occurs over there?

"The same Home Office bulletin shows the number of hate crimes recorded by police rose by 8% in England and Wales in the year to 2020. There were 105,090 in 2019-20, compared with 97,446 in 2018-19.

Race hate crimes accounted for about 72% of offences and had risen by 6% since 2018-19, the figures reveal.

Religious hate crime fell by 5% to 6,822 offences, down from a peak of 7,203 the previous year, representing the first drop in religious hate crime since 2012-13."

Now... if you're saying that everywhere experiences hate crimes, and racial violence... then sure.. I can accept that.. but doesn't that indicate that multiculturalism has failed?

the poster talked about integration, I wanted to know what he meant by that.

Well.. having English and using it as their primary language would be a fair indication. Still.. I would say that the failure of British integration is in large part the failure of the British government not to have a national strategy to encourage it to happen.

As for the meaning of Integration it's pretty obvious.. (and no, learning Morris dancing isn't part of it) you've been on this thread long enough to know what's meant by it. Jeez.. does everything need to be repeated endlessly.

weldoninhio

bubblypop wrote: »

the poster talked about integration, I wanted to know what he meant by that.
If you visit your English friend in his house do you take up Morris dancing?

Is there some suggestion that they do not follow rules because they stick to their own culture?

You integrate into the culture of the country that has allowed you leave your own and move there. I wouldn't rock up in Saudi demanding sausage and rashers as a "Full Irish" is part of my culture.

Moving to another country and speaking your native tongue, socialising only with natives of your own country, and importing "cultural" norms such as women only allowed in a separate room to men and insulting women for wearing makeup etc is not integrating.

fantaiscool

fantaiscool wrote: »

It does amaze me when it can be stated as fact that there is racial tension everywhere in the UK and it's so abundant. These people completely ignore the vast amounts of situations where people of different ethnicity are doing fine together.

Now you're reaching, since it wasn't stated that this was so widespread. Is there a crisis going on? nope. Should it be considered a problem worth managing? definitely yes.

And no, people aren't ignoring the vast amount of situations where people of different ethnicity are doing fine together. People are simply paying attention to the fact that in many cases, they're not doing fine together. And rather than pretend that they are.. they ask the questions about why everyone isn't doing fine together.

It amazes me the desire by people to shut down discussions.