What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

weldoninhio

dog_pig wrote: »

I would really like to be able to support this talented young activist but I find her use of racial epithets very troubling.



I thought this is the exact type of thing that we are trying to get away from? It's hard to take articles like the one below at face value when she uses such racist terms.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/young-people-and-activism-you-can-t-stand-by-and-hope-everything-s-going-to-be-okay-1.4461250

Had a look at her Twitter page. Seems to hate white women for some reason. One of her most recent tweets is "I wonder what it is that makes me inspiring?"

WrenBoy

weldoninhio wrote: »

Had a look at her Twitter page. Seems to hate white women for some reason. One of her most recent tweets is "I wonder what it is that makes me inspiring?"

I wonder if there was a fake twitter account of a white Irish woman which just copied her tweets but switched the races, What kind of reaction do you think it would get ?

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

Sorry I should have been pedantically clear. Only speaking their own language and only socialising with their own countrymen. Making no effort to learn English or integrate whatsoever. Turning their enclave into a mini Pakistan/Somalia/Bangladesh, of which there are many in the UK.

Its something that poster does. In responding, he/she will nearly always add an extra point that you didn't make and then run with it, rather than dealing entirely with what you did write, and so make your overall post appear unreasonable/extreme.

I'd take the Asians, SE Asians as being the perfect example of modern integration with regards to a very different culture (Compared to M.East, Africa, etc). They (as original migrants) don't adopt the host culture (except on the surface, such as fashion/appearance), although their children do. They, typically, do very well in terms of educational success and gaining employment, thereby avoiding any welfare or need for government aid. And there's little to no crime, or violence associated with them. While they do often form enclaves, where their language is spoken, and their culture(s) are represented.. beyond the enclaves, they don't expect to extend their culture into other aspects of the host country.

I'd say that's one of the core differences TBH. The expectation that the host country will adapt to make the migrants stay more 'comfortable', and the expectation that they should be given help due to their race. It seems to be very rare to find any Asians who have a similar mentality, instead, expecting themselves to make themselves a success. (or tapping into a network of other Asians to help them gain opportunities, an extension of the favors system most Asian cultures have)

I don't see integration as adopting all the customs/habits of the host nation. That simply doesn't happen, and is more in line with assimilation. However, the values, and cultural norms in the host nation are important, and they should be embraced.

Pixel Eater

I can't be the only one who fines the term 'White Irish' weird? We wouldn't say 'Black Nigerian' or 'Brown Pakistani' as, well, that's the default race of those peoples/nation. It comes across as a quite a loaded and pointed term.

CruelCoin

Pixel Eater wrote: »

I can't be the only one who fines the term 'White Irish' weird? We wouldn't say 'Black Nigerian' or 'Brown Pakistani' as, well, that's the default race of those peoples/nation. It comes across as a quite a loaded and pointed term.

It's no more weird than using "African American" as opposed to just using "American".

Why does the term strike you as weird?

Pixel Eater

Pixel Eater wrote: »

I can't be the only one who fines the term 'White Irish' weird? We wouldn't say 'Black Nigerian' or 'Brown Pakistani' as, well, that's the default race of those peoples/nation. It comes across as a quite a loaded and pointed term.

It's not just that

"This pat came because they had never called someone a derogatory name, so they felt they were excluded from and not accountable for those who had willingly caused such trauma."

We are allowing the double standard of collective responsibility to be applied to us... but any suggestion of the same for Black people or others, is racist. Irish people, all Irish people are responsible for what any minority do. And not expressing support for BLM or protesting against any killing of a Black person (regardless of the circumstances), is a suggestion that we're all racist, and just pretending to be clued in.

We are really setting ourselves up for a world of hurt the longer we tolerate this nonsense.

TomTomTim

Pixel Eater wrote: »

I can't be the only one who fines the term 'White Irish' weird? We wouldn't say 'Black Nigerian' or 'Brown Pakistani' as, well, that's the default race of those peoples/nation. It comes across as a quite a loaded and pointed term.

I've seen someone else where claim that this purely tactical. Making subs groups of "Irish" people is a way of justifying what will likely come in the future, which is multiculturalists telling us that Ireland was always a melting pot, just like America. When your countries always been a melting pot, it's harder to argue against immigration. That's the theory anyway.

CruelCoin

CruelCoin wrote: »

It's no more weird than using "African American" as opposed to just using "American".

Why does the term strike you as weird?

Hardly. They're a minority in the US. He's talking about the clear majority racial group (and also the native racial group) needing to be identified by their race within their nationality.

Sure, I agree. Americans should be called Americans. Irish should be called Irish. Irrespective of race. But haven't you noticed the focus that race activists have on reinforcing the importance of race in everything they say/do?

As opposed to minimizing the importance of race, and embracing actual equality.

Wibbs

weldoninhio wrote: »

Had a look at her Twitter page. Seems to hate white women for some reason.

Well it might because from her perspective as a Black woman ,White women are a) held as the beauty ideal and b) White middle class women are about the most protected demographic in Western society and the progressives among that demographic rarely if ever regard non White women's issues beyond tokenism. Black women are quite invisible in many ways.

You may recall the government campaign for early learning graphics posted earlier in the thread, where Ireland was apparently a wonderful imaginary land of interracial couples. What was immediately obvious was there were no White men, but maybe not so immediately obvious to a White audience was that there was another group missing from that ham fisted shangri la; Black women. You see this strong trend in wider advertising too. Interracial couples are almost always Black man/White woman. The reverse very much absent. Now some suggest that White man/Black woman images harken to some racist colonialism stuff going on, because White men are always in power(tm) and that's why they're avoided, or it's simply not seen as "photogenic" enough for advertisers and audiences. And that advertising audience is very much slanted towards women and the majority are White women. That's before we look at the lightening of Black women's skin in advertising, or the straightening of hair. When was the last time you saw a dark skinned Black woman with her natural hair in advertising?

So yeah, if I were a young Black woman I'd imagine I'd be somewhat disgruntled too.

Pixel Eater wrote: »

I can't be the only one who fines the term 'White Irish' weird? We wouldn't say 'Black Nigerian' or 'Brown Pakistani' as, well, that's the default race of those peoples/nation. It comes across as a quite a loaded and pointed term.

Because as we've noted true multiculturalism in the western sense is only welcome when darker skin is added to paler skinned nations. Never the other way around. "White Nigerian" would have a very different connotations and mostly negative ones.

Pixel Eater

CruelCoin wrote: »

It's no more weird than using "African American" as opposed to just using "American".

Why does the term strike you as weird?

The same reason using the terms 'Black Nigerian' or 'Brown Pakistani' would be weird; it's the race of those peoples and seems unnecessary. The native Irish are white by default in the same way and the overwhelming majority are that colour. You use descriptor term to describe the outliers rather than the default, true of anything but also people ie. White South Africans.

And I would say 'American' myself to describe anyone from the US, whether they were white, Asian, black or whatever. And isn't 'African American' a term that black people coined themselves or at least prefer themselves to be called?

Also, seems the term - 'White Irish' - is usually used in a negative sense whenever I came across it.

biko

Africans are quite successful in America.



Like Elon and Charlize for example.

Granadino

Pixel Eater wrote: »

The same reason using the terms 'Black Nigerian' or 'Brown Pakistani' would be weird; it's the race of those peoples and seems unnecessary. The native Irish are white by default in the same way and the overwhelming majority are that colour. You use descriptor term to describe the outliers rather than the default, true of anything but also people ie. White South Africans.

And I would say 'American' myself to describe anyone from the US, whether they were white, Asian, black or whatever. And isn't 'African American' a term that black people coined themselves or at least prefer themselves to be called?

Also, seems the term - 'White Irish' - is usually used in a negative sense whenever I can across it.

I can understand why people would use "Italian American" etc if their parents or grand parents are from Italy, but often the kids of these immigrants are culturally as Italian as myself. Maybe Americans spot easier the small differences in backgrounds.
At this stage though, no matter the colour, I would call them "American".
I remember Conan O'Brien mentioning something about being "Irish", turns out his ancestors moved to the US around the famine time.
Though he does have a big Irish head of hair on him....

Effects

Granadino wrote: »

I remember Conan O'Brien mentioning something about being "Irish", turns out his ancestors moved to the US around the famine time.

93% of Americans call themselves Irish though.

Granadino

Effects wrote: »

93% of Americans call themselves Irish though.

They're not though.

emmalynn19

Saw a black woman born and living in Ireland describe herself as 'half black, half Irish' the other day. The mind boggles.

fantaiscool

Wibbs wrote: »

Well it might because from her perspective as a Black woman ,White women are a) held as the beauty ideal and b) White middle class women are about the most protected demographic in Western society and the progressives among that demographic rarely if ever regard non White women's issues beyond tokenism. Black women are quite invisible in many ways.

You may recall the government campaign for early learning graphics posted earlier in the thread, where Ireland was apparently a wonderful imaginary land of interracial couples. What was immediately obvious was there were no White men, but maybe not so immediately obvious to a White audience was that there was another group missing from that ham fisted shangri la; Black women. You see this strong trend in wider advertising too. Interracial couples are almost always Black man/White woman. The reverse very much absent. Now some suggest that White man/Black woman images harken to some racist colonialism stuff going on, because White men are always in power(tm) and that's why they're avoided, or it's simply not seen as "photogenic" enough for advertisers and audiences. And that advertising audience is very much slanted towards women and the majority are White women. That's before we look at the lightening of Black women's skin in advertising, or the straightening of hair. When was the last time you saw a dark skinned Black woman with her natural hair in advertising?

So yeah, if I were a young Black woman I'd imagine I'd be somewhat disgruntled too.

Because as we've noted true multiculturalism in the western sense is only welcome when darker skin is added to paler skinned nations. Never the other way around. "White Nigerian" would have a very different connotations and mostly negative ones.

I totally get where she's coming from. She doesn't have to use racist language towards white people to get her point across. She's just discrediting herself in the eyes of many and opening herself up to weirdos like that guy using google translate and tweeting in Irish at her. The nature of internet weirdos means that even someone doing something as odd as that will have followers and supporters - other weirdos. He will be sending those tweets to any employment she gets for a start. She completely devalues any point she could possibly make by putting out tweets using that kind of language. I'm here actually agreeing with many of her points too. Does feminism apply to black women? I don't think so. There are plenty of things to tackle, plenty of double standards to point out.

Bobblehats

fantaiscool wrote: »

I totally get where she's coming from.

Yea totes. Hey I’ll have whatever koolay you and bubs are having....

fantaiscool

fantaiscool wrote: »

. Does feminism apply to black women? I don't think so. There are plenty of things to tackle, plenty of double standards to point out.

Of course feminism applies to Black women. It applies to all women.. it's only when you place greater importance on your race over your gender, that you're likely to see some differences.

In the EU, where race doesn't receive much attention (compared to the US/UK), the "advances" by feminism will apply equally for women of any racial group, insofar that their own cultural/religious backgrounds don't interfere.

The problem is invariably when discrimination happens to a Black person, racism is the go-to reason.. when it could be a matter of sexism.

Don't get me wrong. I abhor modern feminism, since I feel in most cases, women have achieved parity with men, and in other instances, have passed them in gaining benefits/protections, thereby invalidating equality as a goal. However, women, in general, irrespective of race, receive these benefits/protections.. I certainly haven't seen any indication in laws or rulings which specify that they only apply to Irish women or White women or whatever. They apply to women.

Scoondal

biko wrote: »

Africans are quite successful in America.



Like Elon and Charlize for example.

Huh ? Who is from Africa ?

Burkie1203

I see that Joseph dope is whinging again about black unemployment in covid times. Black Africans unemployment is 8 times higher then native Irish.

These people are allowed spout some sh1te unchallenged. Its dangerous. Where i work, there is about 250 people and all are Irish AFAIK. All lifers in civil service basically.

Blanch has the highest covid rate now. Shock horror

weldoninhio

Scoondal wrote: »

Huh ? Who is from Africa ?

Elon Musk and Charlize Theron are Africans.

weldoninhio

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I see that Joseph dope is whinging again about black unemployment in covid times. Black Africans unemployment is 8 times higher then native Irish.

These people are allowed spout some sh1te unchallenged. Its dangerous. Where i work, there is about 250 people and all are Irish AFAIK. All lifers in civil service basically.

Blanch has the highest covid rate now. Shock horror

I had this argument with a “woke” Irish person yesterday. Blaming racism on everything is hurting black people more than anything else.

In a domestic abuse situation, the aggressor will normally grind down the victim telling them they are ‘useless, you are lucky I love you because no one else will, you’re worthless and everyone knows it’ etc. It manipulates then and enforces that view their eyes and they believe it.

If you keep telling black people that every bad thing happens to them is racism. Didn’t get the job - racism, white boyfriend dumped me - racism, taxi didn’t stop for me - racism, brought me a glass of Ribena - racism, attacking a Garda with a knife got me shot - racism. Then all they’re gonna see is racism. It becomes their only viewpoint because they are constantly told that’s the issue and eventually they believe it.

And of course, the more minorities screaming racism, the more money NGOs and “charities” get to battle this far-right boogeyman who’s perpetrating all of this racism. It’s a circle perpetuated by those who see an easy buck.

Sir Oxman

TomTomTim wrote: »

Sorcha Pollak pushing race baiting articles again. I'm shocked.

The IT is awful.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-must-ask-obvious-question-over-shooting-of-george-nkencho-1.4469395
Here's an opinion piece yesterday by an assistant professor of advanced European Union law at Dublin City University on the Nkencho incident (the thread on here was shuttered as it 'wasn't ongoing' so nowhere to put this bar here)
The completely disingenuous opening paragraph sets the rest of his agenda.
Of course, anyone following the incident/aftermath will know it was some of our 'great and good' (the Pollacks of the political and media world) that within an hour of it decided the AGS 'systemic racism' was the most pertinent thing to announce and it was all about the skin. Nothing racist in that at all.
Awful stuff.

"Why is it so difficult for people to even consider whether there may have been a racial dimension to the fatal shooting of 27-year-old George Nkencho by gardaí in the front garden of his family home in Clonee, west Dublin, on December 30th? The answer to this question lies in the answer to another: are you a racist?"

Sir Oxman

TomTomTim wrote: »

I've seen someone else where claim that this purely tactical. Making subs groups of "Irish" people is a way of justifying what will likely come in the future, which is multiculturalists telling us that Ireland was always a melting pot, just like America. When your countries always been a melting pot, it's harder to argue against immigration. That's the theory anyway.

ID politics 101
Same with the attempt (somewhat legislatively successful) to make females a subset of their own sex.

fantaiscool

weldoninhio wrote: »

I had this argument with a “woke” Irish person yesterday. Blaming racism on everything is hurting black people more than anything else.

In a domestic abuse situation, the aggressor will normally grind down the victim telling them they are ‘useless, you are lucky I love you because no one else will, you’re worthless and everyone knows it’ etc. It manipulates then and enforces that view their eyes and they believe it.

If you keep telling black people that every bad thing happens to them is racism. Didn’t get the job - racism, white boyfriend dumped me - racism, taxi didn’t stop for me - racism, brought me a glass of Ribena - racism, attacking a Garda with a knife got me shot - racism. Then all they’re gonna see is racism. It becomes their only viewpoint because they are constantly told that’s the issue and eventually they believe it.

And of course, the more minorities screaming racism, the more money NGOs and “charities” get to battle this far-right boogeyman who’s perpetrating all of this racism. It’s a circle perpetuated by those who see an easy buck.

Struggling to understand how you're an expert on the racism black people face despite never experiencing it yourself.

section4

Sir Oxman wrote: »

The IT is awful.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-must-ask-obvious-question-over-shooting-of-george-nkencho-1.4469395
Here's an opinion piece yesterday by an assistant professor of advanced European Union law at Dublin City University on the Nkencho incident (the thread on here was shuttered as it 'wasn't ongoing' so nowhere to put this bar here)
The completely disingenuous opening paragraph sets the rest of his agenda.
Of course, anyone following the incident/aftermath will know it was some of our 'great and good' (the Pollacks of the political and media world) that within an hour of it decided the AGS 'systemic racism' was the most pertinent thing to announce and it was all about the skin. Nothing racist in that at all.
Awful stuff.

"Why is it so difficult for people to even consider whether there may have been a racial dimension to the fatal shooting of 27-year-old George Nkencho by gardaí in the front garden of his family home in Clonee, west Dublin, on December 30th? The answer to this question lies in the answer to another: are you a racist?"

assistant professor, sounds like a guy thats been studying the subject for 30 years, thats what i would imagine a professor to be, alsas

this guy was working in KFC in Letterkenny from 2010-2014, then in the AIB from 2014-2017, and now he is an assistant professor and he talking about racism , these people dont seem to understand this is not the US or the UK we have had a bad time ourselves and many had to emigrate from 2010 but he didnt

daedal

Yea it's totally working, **** sake

section4

fantaiscool wrote: »

Struggling to understand how you're an expert on the racism black people face despite never experiencing it yourself.

some people have been listening to this for 30 years and can see a pattern, the problem with these people is they know nothing about irish history and lump irish people in with english americans and so on, to them if you are white then you are racist,
and it been going on for at least 30 years since i was in london, one wonders why if we are racist why are they here, the african americans were brought to the US as slaves and had no choice but these people have every choice,

fantaiscool

section4 wrote: »

some people have been listening to this for 30 years and can see a pattern, the problem with these people is they know nothing about irish history and lump irish people in with english americans and so on, to them if you are white then you are racist,
and it been going on for at least 30 years since i was in london, one wonders why if we are racist why are they here, the african americans were brought to the US as slaves and had no choice but these people have every choice,

Not really addressing my point. I don't see how a white person can be an expert on the racism black people face when he or she has not got any experience of living as a black person.

If you have a problem with them complaining and pointing out racism and injustice and say they should just get on with it and accept it then i can understand your position. More or less saying get out of the country instead of complain about what you perceive as injustice. I wouldn't agree with that position of course but I'd understand and see the logic - you might just not care about the racism they face and want them to shut up because you're sick of hearing about it. But if you're presenting yourself as an authority on the racism they face despite having no experience at all, then I can't really see the logic there myself.

Yellow_Fern

Can I request that people posting newspaper articles to post the article here or on Imgur etc? With very bad articles we really shouldn't be giving them traffic.