What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

ExMachina1000

Hamachi wrote: »

The arrival of skilled migrants, primarily from the old and expanded EU has been a positive for Ireland. Many of these migrants are degree-level educated or skilled trades people. They are economically active almost from day one upon their arrival. Similarly, Asian migrants plug essential gaps in the health care sector. They contribute significantly to the economic development of this country and are almost universally welcomed by the general public. The degree to which they mix with Irish people is limited to date. However, this may change if they put down more permanent roots.

The same cannot be said for other cohorts of migrants. They enter the country in a dubious manner, subvert the asylum process, and over stay visas. Many do not possess the skill set to work in an advanced economy, their English language ability is rudimentary, and rates of welfare dependence are extraordinarily high. Socially, some of these groups are starting to ghettoize, particularly in west Dublin. The issues seen across Western Europe, as the second generation mature to adulthood, are already beginning to manifest in Ireland.

The very last noun I would apply to describe the latter category of migrant is a ‘boon’.

Absolutely spot on the mark.

Quantum Erasure

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

The Irish had a lot of these reflexes of self deprecation because of a long winded exposure to humiliation, and impotence in their own country. I think that the arrival of many ethnicities has been a boon to Ireland, economically and socially. I remember the Italian and Chinese and Eastern European Jewish population were the most prevalent, and numbered below ten thousand each. You cannot tell me the influx of many tens of thousands of immigrants hasn't been stimulating for the Irish Nation. How can it not be? What is bad about mixing ethnicities, and why would it be scary to you from the outset?

I believe the opposite of mixing is actually seriously menacing. Think of the Travelers culture of inbreeding, think of those who because of their poor upbringing never venture past their little pasture whether it be Sheriff Street or Tallaght or East Los Angeles. Something tells them they don't belong, and that they are not meant to attain.

You're against multiculturalism so

Wibbs

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

I think that the arrival of many ethnicities has been a boon to Ireland, economically and socially. I remember the Italian and Chinese and Eastern European Jewish population were the most prevalent, and numbered below ten thousand each. You cannot tell me the influx of many tens of thousands of immigrants hasn't been stimulating for the Irish Nation. How can it not be? What is bad about mixing ethnicities, and why would it be scary to you from the outset?

You make the assumption and accept straight out of the gate that how can it not be good? You don't question it. You choose to ignore the experiences of every single other European nation that has tried to run this multicultural experiment

And again would you hold the exact same position applied to an African or Asian nation? Do you think that tens of thousands of immigrants of different ethnicities would be "stimulating" and of benefit for Chad, or Uganda, or Vietnam, or is it as usual just White nations that need it?

Never mind that economically and socially Ireland was dragging itself out of the "Old Ireland" mindset well before the influx of the late 90's and early noughties. And pretty rapidly with it.

I believe the opposite of mixing is actually seriously menacing. Think of the Travelers culture of inbreeding, think of those who because of their poor upbringing never venture past their little pasture whether it be Sheriff Street or Tallaght or East Los Angeles. Something tells them they don't belong, and that they are not meant to attain.

And here's a good example of the cognitive dissonance around multiculturalism. Because that existing experience of every single European nation that has tried this busted flush ends up doing the "seriously menacing" that you describe. Your description of Travelers and the poor of upbringing is exactly what happens to immigrant cultures and the darker of skin, IE the less like the indigenous population they look, the more this happens. What do the demographics look like in the poorest regions of urban France, Britain, Germany, Sweden look like? European or Asian? That would be a nope. They feel they don't belong and that they are not meant to attain. Or have you completely missed the point of the current BLM protests around Europe? Have you completely missed the point of the culture of ghettoisation among immigrant populations in Europe even many generations in? Have you completely missed the point of the long standing social schisms throughout multicultural Europe along skin colour lines?

Ah but Ireland will be different I suppose? Pity that we're seeing it starting here already. We already have the start of ghettoisation and "white flight" in areas of Dublin. We already have the government try the happy clappy multicultural propaganda to head off the questions and tell us we're all one great melting pot, even though the reality on a few levels is completely different. According to government spin:

Irish women are all White and in interracial relationships and White Irish men don't exist at all. From what I can see so far is that Ireland's only difference is that we're being far more dishonest about the realities far earlier.

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

You make the assumption and accept straight out of the gate that how can it not be good? You don't question it. You choose to ignore the experiences of every single other European nation that has tried to run this multicultural experiment

And again would you hold the exact same position applied to an African or Asian nation? Do you think that tens of thousands of immigrants of different ethnicities would be "stimulating" and of benefit for Chad, or Uganda, or Vietnam, or is it as usual just White nations that need it?

Never mind that economically and socially Ireland was dragging itself out of the "Old Ireland" mindset well before the influx of the late 90's and early noughties. And pretty rapidly with it.

And here's a good example of the cognitive dissonance around multiculturalism. Because that existing experience of every single European nation that has tried this busted flush ends up doing the "seriously menacing" that you describe. Your description of Travelers and the poor of upbringing is exactly what happens to immigrant cultures and the darker of skin, IE the less like the indigenous population they look, the more this happens. What do the demographics look like in the poorest regions of urban France, Britain, Germany, Sweden look like? European or Asian? That would be a nope. They feel they don't belong and that they are not meant to attain. Or have you completely missed the point of the current BLM protests around Europe? Have you completely missed the point of the culture of ghettoisation among immigrant populations in Europe even many generations in? Have you completely missed the point of the long standing social schisms throughout multicultural Europe along skin colour lines?

Ah but Ireland will be different I suppose? Pity that we're seeing it starting here already. We already have the start of ghettoisation and "white flight" in areas of Dublin. We already have the government try the happy clappy multicultural propaganda to head off the questions and tell us we're all one great melting pot, even though the reality on a few levels is completely different. According to government spin:

Irish women are all White and in interracial relationships and White Irish men don't exist at all. From what I can see so far is that Ireland's only difference is that we're being far more dishonest about the realities far earlier.

You seem to be claiming that multiculturalism doesn't work because minorities get marginalised. A fair observation. But instead of arguing we should try and stop the marginalising, your solution is what, to keep cultures separate?

cooperguy

cooperguy wrote: »

This seems like such a bad take. The racial divisions in the US are not white people suddenly pulling themselves apart because of multiculturalism and immigrants. Its a long history from slavery that is bubbling up, again, over there. Not a desire for multiculturalism going wrong. The civil rights act only came in 1964. That stuff has repercussions.

And? What has that got to do with the question asked? Perhaps you would like to answer the question asked, rather than use it as a platform to give
diverging opinions?

Although, I'd suggest that the failing infrastructure of the US economy for the lowest social groups is a rather strong reason why this happened, combined with the activists who promote black people rights while ignoring (or finding excuses) the downsides of black culture. Ever watch the clip on "Seattle is ****"? The garbage piling up, the people sleeping on the streets, the crime wave due to alterations to the justice system? There's been a lot going on in the US.

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Yes, as cooperguy just stated, the wounds are still fresh for Blacks in the US, and the remedial stuff was in many cases a band-aid, and slow to progress.

The wounds are fresh because the African American community has built their whole group identity around being enslaved, mistreated as slaves, and further mistreatment as citizens. Black culture reinforces the belief that they are victims at every instance where their actions bring failure. It's always someone else's fault. They tried once to move on, and essentially stopped a few years after their prophet was shot, and managed to gain some basic improvements.

If you had a decent education as a black, that wasn't a free ticket to a good job or a good neighborgood.

"Our story is not entirely positive. Clearly, the racial gap in success is large, with African American men being about 20 percentage points less likely to reach the upper class today compared to white and Asian men. One reason that’s the case is that black men were more likely to have contact with the criminal justice system. In our analyses, early contact with the criminal justice system hurt black men’s chance of being financially successful many years later. After holding education, work, and marriage constant, black men’s contact with the criminal justice system reduced their chance of making it to the upper class by about 70%."

There is a whole rich history of making it impossible for blacks to be part of the fabric of American Life outside of a very well defined cultural mindset.

No, there is a mindset to suggest that it is impossible for black people to be part of it. The reality is different. It's certainly difficult. There is racism and discrimination in the US, but for millions of Black people who braved those obstacles they have managed to do quite well for themselves.

URL="https://ifstudies.org/blog/2-5-million-black-men-are-in-the-upper-class"]same article[/URL

"However, focusing only on the negative side of the story for black men has its limitations. First, it renders millions of successful black men, and the paths they have taken to the American Dream, invisible. Second, it can lead to a sense of hopelessness for young black men. As Ian Rowe, the CEO of a charter school network in New York City has noted, with so much talk of “black failure” today, black boys may start to feel “why even bother when the odds are stacked against you?”

I agree with you about the demeaning language used by blacks and wannabe blacks and the violence eked out by the black community upon its members. There has been for a long time a culture of self.loathing and auto-destruction, and this needs to change as much as the forces that have done a lot to divide.

Except there is little to no movement for them to change. All of the desire for change is external. It's the American culture at fault. White people are racist, and Black people are victims. Identity politics sought to elevate the problems of different groups over each other, which created further friction rather than dealing with the positives in the system, and expanding on the opportunities available. Excuses are found for their own failings as a community, and as a people, dismissing that it's possible for black people to succeed in gaining a modest lifestyle similar to that of an average white family.

Limpy

We signed up for open borders When we joined the EU.

Many of the EU countries like the UK, France had plundered many non European countries and colonised them. So the people of those countries were brought back for cheap labour and were giving citizenship.

If you dont like people who want to keep the traditions alive then your angry at the wrong people.

I suppose drunk Paddy culture was left in Ireland when any Irish person left the shores.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Wibbs wrote: »

You make the assumption and accept straight out of the gate that how can it not be good? You don't question it. You choose to ignore the experiences of every single other European nation that has tried to run this multicultural experiment

And again would you hold the exact same position applied to an African or Asian nation? Do you think that tens of thousands of immigrants of different ethnicities would be "stimulating" and of benefit for Chad, or Uganda, or Vietnam, or is it as usual just White nations that need it?

Never mind that economically and socially Ireland was dragging itself out of the "Old Ireland" mindset well before the influx of the late 90's and early noughties. And pretty rapidly with it.

And here's a good example of the cognitive dissonance around multiculturalism. Because that existing experience of every single European nation that has tried this busted flush ends up doing the "seriously menacing" that you describe. Your description of Travelers and the poor of upbringing is exactly what happens to immigrant cultures and the darker of skin, IE the less like the indigenous population they look, the more this happens. What do the demographics look like in the poorest regions of urban France, Britain, Germany, Sweden look like? European or Asian? That would be a nope. They feel they don't belong and that they are not meant to attain. Or have you completely missed the point of the current BLM protests around Europe? Have you completely missed the point of the culture of ghettoisation among immigrant populations in Europe even many generations in? Have you completely missed the point of the long standing social schisms throughout multicultural Europe along skin colour lines?

Ah but Ireland will be different I suppose? Pity that we're seeing it starting here already. We already have the start of ghettoisation and "white flight" in areas of Dublin. We already have the government try the happy clappy multicultural propaganda to head off the questions and tell us we're all one great melting pot, even though the reality on a few levels is completely different. According to government spin:

Irish women are all White and in interracial relationships and White Irish men don't exist at all. From what I can see so far is that Ireland's only difference is that we're being far more dishonest about the realities far earlier.

That pic is mind blowing.

Jesus Christ.

The more I look at it the more I see.

Yellow_Fern

cooperguy wrote: »

This seems like such a bad take. The racial divisions in the US are not white people suddenly pulling themselves apart because of multiculturalism and immigrants. Its a long history from slavery that is bubbling up, again, over there. Not a desire for multiculturalism going wrong. The civil rights act only came in 1964. That stuff has repercussions.

Slavery has an impact buts much more than just that. Black Americans are only 15% of the US. A lot of the racism meta narrative there is about Asians and hispanics now. Canada has no history of slavery but its gone down this same race obsessed path.

Rockbeast2

Damn, I've just seen the picture Wibbs posted.

This appears on an actual real government website?! FFS

I will find it harder to criticise Gemma O'Doherty now for her belief in The Kalergi Plan.

There's definitely an orchestrated campaign of some description underway. This erasure of white men is worrying. The optics are not good.

ExMachina1000

Limpy wrote: »

We signed up for open borders When we joined the EU.

Many of the EU countries like the UK, France had plundered many non European countries and colonised them. So the people of those countries were brought back for cheap labour and were giving citizenship.

If you dont like people who want to keep the traditions alive then your angry at the wrong people.

I suppose drunk Paddy culture was left in Ireland when any Irish person left the shores.

Once the UK leaves the EU and enacts its points based Visa system similar to Canada and Australia Ireland will inevitably see many more people coming to these shores instead.

We ain't seen nothing yet

Arthur Daley

The Irish people never signed up for open borders. Ten years ago hordes were flying out of the airport to emigrate. Yet again. Rte turned up to report on sobbing families but sure they always have skype and there is just no work at home.

Did these people, middle Ireland know what was in store for them over the next decade. Was it explained to them. I think we all know the answer to that.

They were conned.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

You seem to be claiming that multiculturalism doesn't work because minorities get marginalised. A fair observation. But instead of arguing we should try and stop the marginalising, your solution is what, to keep cultures separate?

Marginalisation happens. It is pretty much inevitable. It's down to human nature and observable throughout our history and while yes optimistic and kind to think we can change this nature it's naive in the extreme.

Take a multicultural nation like Brazil, a major so called "melting pot" of different ethnicities and "races" and after centuries of living together, look at the genetics. People who look African have majority African DNA, those that look European have majority European DNA and so forth. We see similar throughout the world and our history. People don't tend to mix except under duresses like colonisation, invasion and slavery. This notion that some hold that at some time in the future humanity will be mostly tanned brown eyed people all mixed up together is a pipe dream, and actually would be a nightmare and bad for us as a species to lose our genetic diversity. Never mind that again it assumes that what the pale of skin and blue of eye need is more melanin. And again the same people wouldn't dream of suggesting that what the darker of skin need is less melanin.

This marginalisation and separation is already happening in Ireland along skin colour lines and we've only been in the multicultural game for less than two decades and by comparison with other multicultural nations far fewer numbers. The pattern remains the same everywhere. Small numbers of non indigenous people tend to "fit in" and works well enough, but there is a point where the numbers grow and people quite naturally want to cluster together with others like themselves and create largely separate communities. This goes quadruple for demographics that look distinct and/or have very distinct cultural differences from the native populations. So Africans in Ireland are going to separate far more than Poles and this difference gets wider with each generation. The same would happen if 60,000 White Irish people showed up in Nigeria. They would inevitably coalesce into their own separate communities and would establish a White ghetto. In long standing multiethnic colonies like the US etc, you get Italian quarters, Chinatowns etc. Again human nature.

Wibbs

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

I will find it harder to criticise Gemma O'Doherty now for her belief in The Kalergi Plan.

There's definitely an orchestrated campaign of some description underway. This erasure of white men is worrying. The optics are not good.

Nah, Gemma is still a Grade A loon. There's no orchestrated campaign in the sense of the "replacement" notion. Even in the most multicultural nations in Europe that have been running this daftness for decades, those of non native and their descendants are still minorities, usually tiny ones, almost always clustered in urban areas.

What orchestrated campaign there is is to try and convince the Irish people that this multicultural thing is normal and happy clappy and nothing to see here. Likely to at least appear to be doing something, after the same governments dropped the ball in the late 90's. That pic and others like it(Note; nearly always dark skinned man, pale skinned woman for various reasons, much of it ironically racist itself) in government and advertising is daft, because it quite simply doesn't reflect any sort of Irish reality. Hell it wouldn't reflect much reality even in the most multicultural country in Europe, or the world for that matter. Well there are no Black women in it for a start. It seems the idea of a Black woman, White man couple triggers the Right On for some reason. "Jungle fever" only goes one way apparently.

cooperguy

Arthur Daley wrote: »

The Irish people never signed up for open borders. Ten years ago hordes were flying out of the airport to emigrate. Yet again. Rte turned up to report on sobbing families but sure they always have skype and there is just no work at home.

Did these people, middle Ireland know what was in store for them over the next decade. Was it explained to them. I think we all know the answer to that.

They were conned.

What does this even mean... Open borders caused our recession? Irish people left because Europeans flew in to take their jobs during a recession? You're conning yourself

Hamachi

Slowyourrole wrote: »

You seem to be claiming that multiculturalism doesn't work because minorities get marginalised. A fair observation. But instead of arguing we should try and stop the marginalising, your solution is what, to keep cultures separate?

The solution is that migration and multiculturalism should only be entertained if it is in Ireland’s interest. All of these tedious arguments about identity and nomenclature are simply a diversion.

Migrants to Ireland who plug a specific skills gap are welcome and offered a well delineated path to full citizenship. Those with nothing to offer, should not have access to this country. The issue of marginalization is a moot point for those migrants who are economically active. They integrate organically over time and become embedded within their communities.

Rockbeast2

Wibbs wrote: »

Nah, Gemma is still a Grade A loon. There's no orchestrated campaign in the sense of the "replacement" notion. Even in the most multicultural nations in Europe that have been running this daftness for decades, those of non native and their descendants are still minorities, usually tiny ones, almost always clustered in urban areas.

What orchestrated campaign there is is to try and convince the Irish people that this multicultural thing is normal and happy clappy and nothing to see here. Likely to at least appear to be doing something, after the same governments dropped the ball in the late 90's. That pic and others like it(Note; nearly always dark skinned man, pale skinned woman for various reasons, much of it ironically racist itself) in government and advertising is daft, because it quite simply doesn't reflect any sort of Irish reality. Hell it wouldn't reflect much reality even in the most multicultural country in Europe, or the world for that matter. Well there are no Black women in it for a start. It seems the idea of a Black woman, White man couple triggers the Right On for some reason. "Jungle fever" only goes one way apparently.

Ah, yeah, for sure G'OD is a bit "touched".

Honestly, I've always believed that the intentions behind these sort of images were good, that the idea of multiculturalism is born from a longing for an everybody holding hands, singing Kumbaya together, utopia.

This of course ignores cultural realities and actual human nature. We all know what the road to hell is paved with.

I am perfectly fine with a realistic number of genuine asylum seekers/refugees being accepted and given a chance at a better life. In fact, I think it is necessary for us as a healthy society to do so.

I'm also happy for anyone of any colour or creed to be given a Visa to work here if they are qualified for a skilled position that cannot be filled by an Irish citizen.

I have no issue at all with mixed-race couples, I've dated black/latino/Asian girls myself. In my experience I've found that more white male friends and acquaintances have relationships with other colors/races than white females would!

That picture above just looks wrong to me. I'd love to get a hold of the artist's brief for its creation.

joe40

Wibbs wrote: »

Marginalisation happens. It is pretty much inevitable. It's down to human nature and observable throughout our history and while yes optimistic and kind to think we can change this nature it's naive in the extreme.

Take a multicultural nation like Brazil, a major so called "melting pot" of different ethnicities and "races" and after centuries of living together, look at the genetics. People who look African have majority African DNA, those that look European have majority European DNA and so forth. We see similar throughout the world and our history. People don't tend to mix except under duresses like colonisation, invasion and slavery. This notion that some hold that at some time in the future humanity will be mostly tanned brown eyed people all mixed up together is a pipe dream, and actually would be a nightmare and bad for us as a species to lose our genetic diversity. Never mind that again it assumes that what the pale of skin and blue of eye need is more melanin. And again the same people wouldn't dream of suggesting that what the darker of skin need is less melanin.

This marginalisation and separation is already happening in Ireland along skin colour lines and we've only been in the multicultural game for less than two decades and by comparison with other multicultural nations far fewer numbers. The pattern remains the same everywhere. Small numbers of non indigenous people tend to "fit in" and works well enough, but there is a point where the numbers grow and people quite naturally want to cluster together with others like themselves and create largely separate communities. This goes quadruple for demographics that look distinct and/or have very distinct cultural differences from the native populations. So Africans in Ireland are going to separate far more than Poles and this difference gets wider with each generation. The same would happen if 60,000 White Irish people showed up in Nigeria. They would inevitably coalesce into their own separate communities and would establish a White ghetto. In long standing multiethnic colonies like the US etc, you get Italian quarters, Chinatowns etc. Again human nature.

All these things happen, that is true.
So as a country we can either stop immigration and keep the country as monocultural as possible. That would prevent the things you talk about, and many people would strongly support that view I don't know where you stand yourself.

If however if one accepts that immigration is going to happen and there are going to be different cultures, ethnicities and Skin colour living here, then I think it is wise for the government and society in general to promote inclusion and equality to try to prevent the problems that arose through segregation in other countries.

The picture you posted earlier is obviously ham fisted nonsense but it is better than the American experience where black people were largely absent from popular culture, despite making up a significant proportion of the country since it's foundation.

I'm not naive enough to think these sorts of gestures on their own will fix things but it's all part of a process.

It is very easy to point out all the problems that exist in other countries, but we can try to learn from that.

The only alternative is no immigration, like Russia or China. I personally wouldn't like our society to be like those countries.

I think Ireland is going to have immigrants the debate should be how to best manage that now and into the future. How are we going to function as a society with second and third generation immigrants.

I have 2 teenagers and granted I don't live in Dublin but so far the immigration and cultures they have experienced has been very positive. National schools worked very hard to help that process.

iebamm2580

TBF that Justin barrett who is a bit of a weirdo and o doherty are outright racists, hazel chu said on the show about the far right gaining traction, 1 of the journalists put it very well when he said if people are going to be labelled racist for questioning immigration they will eventually say to hell with it and vote that way, open discussion is all most people in the middle want. Controlled immigration is ideal and does add to the country when integration is done correctly with manageable numbers.

Limpy

Arthur Daley wrote: »

The Irish people never signed up for open borders. Ten years ago hordes were flying out of the airport to emigrate. Yet again. Rte turned up to report on sobbing families but sure they always have skype and there is just no work at home.

Did these people, middle Ireland know what was in store for them over the next decade. Was it explained to them. I think we all know the answer to that.

They were conned.

They never signed up you say buy used open borders to fly out. The irony.

Arthur Daley

Limpy wrote: »

They never signed up you say buy used open borders to fly out. The irony.

Can we get these 'open borders' of Canada and Australia please. We will sign up to those 'open borders'. No issue at all. If only

Limpy

If anyone on here had a house next door that was to giving to a stereotypical:

A. Irish Traveller family.
B. Irish council estate family
C. Non white immigrant family

Who would you prefer as your neighbor's?

Pkiernan

Multi Culturalism works very smoothly.

Just look at Northern reland.

Two different cultures peacefully coexisting for decades.

larva

I would be against forced multiculturalism but its here and we have to face it otherwise we will repeat the mistakes of other countries and of history. Its wrong to say that it doesnt work entirely or has never produced any benefits, it is in essence, a natural evolution of our species. No one nation has any god given right to exclude another human-being from being allowed to enter their country, that is simply national ghettoism on a global stage, a country that doesnt allow for multiculturalism is a ghetto of its own people, isolated and removed from the rest of the world. Forced multiculturalism, resulting from say a large group of people arriving on a boats fleeing a famine, has many challenges, exploitation, fear of the unknown, slavery and so on. I example the way white Irish immigrants were looked at by English and Americans when we moved into their territory, we were seen as black to them (No Irish and no blacks wanted posters anyone?). and yes we too did form into our own little groups and areas until we eventually were accepted and then we thrived in their culture while expressing our own. Non white people have a much tougher time integrating simple because of the colour of their skin, its a hidden feature in the human psyche that just because someone looks different to your own eyes that you cannot accept them just for who they are, mere humans. If multiculturalism is a choice, done in a way thats for the benefits of both parties it can and does work. We are bringing in educated people, doctors for example, who are replacing those Irish born doctors who have moved to Australia or wherever, its a revolving system we are very much part of ourselves.

Wibbs

joe40 wrote: »

All these things happen, that is true.
So as a country we can either stop immigration and keep the country as monocultural as possible. That would prevent the things you talk about, and many people would strongly support that view I don't know where you stand yourself.

I'd be of the keep the country as "monocultural" as possible. Certainly I'd be majorly against the numbers of illegals that showed up here in the late 90's early noughties, but sadly that ship has sailed and we'll be dealing with the BS from it for generations. I take issue with some attempts to ignore Irish democracy and being back the legislation that encouraged popping out babies for Irish passports. I've no issue with legal migration here. I've also no issue with genuine refugees. Neither groups tend towards ghettoisation and social issues.

If however if one accepts that immigration is going to happen and there are going to be different cultures, ethnicities and Skin colour living here, then I think it is wise for the government and society in general to promote inclusion and equality to try to prevent the problems that arose through segregation in other countries.

The picture you posted earlier is obviously ham fisted nonsense but it is better than the American experience where black people were largely absent from popular culture, despite making up a significant proportion of the country since it's foundation.

I'm not naive enough to think these sorts of gestures on their own will fix things but it's all part of a process.

It is very easy to point out all the problems that exist in other countries, but we can try to learn from that.

The only alternative is no immigration, like Russia or China. I personally wouldn't like our society to be like those countries.

Well China is already "multicultural" with many different ethnicities involved, but as usual one, the Han dominate the culture and narrative. Like every so called multicultural nation.

Like I have always contended multiculturalism and diversity is a laudable and optimistic dream, but that's what it remains; a dream. I really don't see how Ireland will magically avoid the issues of every single other multicultural nation, particularly in Europe. I don't see how we're any different. Indeed Irish culture is actually more clannish than most. We already have an ethnic underclass and attendant social issues which seem to be increasing rather than not and Travellers are White and Irish.

Speaking of hamfisted: I had a look in the Gov.ie page that hosted that above image and found another.



Three White fellas. Bejaysus. And a White Lesbian couple with a Black child. Ticking the boxes folks.

I have 2 teenagers and granted I don't live in Dublin but so far the immigration and cultures they have experienced has been very positive. National schools worked very hard to help that process.

Rural areas will be largely free from the side effects of "diversity", historically it's almost always urban areas and urbanites that take the hit.

larva

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd be of the keep the country as "monocultural" as possible. Certainly I'd be majorly against the numbers of illegals that showed up here in the late 90's early noughties, but sadly that ship has sailed and we'll be dealing with the BS from it for generations. I take issue with some attempts to ignore Irish democracy and being back the legislation that encouraged popping out babies for Irish passports. I've no issue with legal migration here. I've also no issue with genuine refugees. Neither groups tend towards ghettoisation and social issues.


Well China is already "multicultural" with many different ethnicities involved, but as usual one, the Han dominate the culture and narrative. Like every so called multicultural nation.

Like I have always contended multiculturalism and diversity is a laudable and optimistic dream, but that's what it remains; a dream. I really don't see how Ireland will magically avoid the issues of every single other multicultural nation, particularly in Europe. I don't see how we're any different. Indeed Irish culture is actually more clannish than most. We already have an ethnic underclass and attendant social issues which seem to be increasing rather than not and Travellers are White and Irish.

Speaking of hamfisted: I had a look in the Gov.ie page that hosted that above image and found another.



Three White fellas. Bejaysus. And a White Lesbian couple with a Black child. Ticking the boxes folks.



Rural areas will be largely free from the side effects of "diversity", historically it's almost always urban areas and urbanites that take the hit.

There is even a DOG in the picture too, ohh the HORROR of it all!!? The end is NIGH!! Would spreading the fear and intolerance be a better approach for government to adopt?

Limpy

Limpy wrote: »

We signed up for open borders When we joined the EU.

We signed up for free movement of Europeans and those with valid visas. We didn't sign up for what has evolved from the original agreement.

Many of the EU countries like the UK, France had plundered many non European countries and colonised them. So the people of those countries were brought back for cheap labour and were giving citizenship.

Except that's not the case. France is pretty much the only colonial nation apart from Belgium who gave citizenship to their colonies and encouraged them to come to Europe. The BE never encouraged their colonials of other racial groups to come to Britain as cheap labor. Most modern racial diversity is the result of Germany importing Turks, which fed into the EU encouraging the importation of cheap labor. A modern phenomenon rather than a result of colonialsim...

When do people stop paying for the behavior of their great grandparents? How many generations before they can't be blamed for behavior long before they were born and capable of affecting events?

If you dont like people who want to keep the traditions alive then your angry at the wrong people.

I suppose drunk Paddy culture was left in Ireland when any Irish person left the shores.

Huh? This part makes no sense to me, considering what you said previously.

Hamachi

iebamm2580 wrote: »

TBF that Justin barrett who is a bit of a weirdo and o doherty are outright racists, hazel chu said on the show about the far right gaining traction, 1 of the journalists put it very well when he said if people are going to be labelled racist for questioning immigration they will eventually say to hell with it and vote that way, open discussion is all most people in the middle want. Controlled immigration is ideal and does add to the country when integration is done correctly with manageable numbers.

Precisely. This is what most reasonable people want. A frank conversation about immigration policy, prioritizing skilled migration and managing the numbers to a sustainable flow. It’s totally disingenuous for no mark politicians like Hazel Chu to link concerns about the current situation with a thoroughly rational desire for a well designed system that works in the interests of Ireland.

This kind of rhetoric will drive people into the hands of the true far right, given that they are the only parties who appear to be listening to the genuine concerns around demographic change. Suppressing this conversation is driving our European neighbors into pretty extreme directions. Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised if we see the AFD and Front National in power in Germany and France respectively, within the next decade. Ireland is unquestioningly following this very same template. All of this could be avoided if the ruling class simply listened to the anxieties of the indigenous population and implemented a sensible response to migration.

Wibbs

Limpy wrote: »

If anyone on here had a house next door that was to giving to a stereotypical:

A. Irish Traveller family.
B. Irish council estate family
C. Non white immigrant family

Who would you prefer as your neighbor's?

If legal, C. Or B. A wouldn't be any issue if they're settled Travellers. I've known a few in my time and were sound. Scrapyards out back and caravans everywhere, nope.

larva wrote: »

I would be against forced multiculturalism but its here and we have to face it otherwise we will repeat the mistakes of other countries and of history.

How? Other nations have tried and yet still end up with the same problems down the line. Again how are we going to be different? We're already seeing ghettoisation in action and we're only two decades in and with a small non native population compared to others.

Its wrong to say that it doesnt work entirely or has never produced any benefits, it is in essence, a natural evolution of our species.

Citation needed. How is it a "natural evolution of our species"? The history and evolution of our species has been a long list of conquest, assimilation, even extinction of competing groups. That's "natural". Multiculturalism would actually be the "unnatural" state. You can't reset human nature in a couple of generations. Now I've heard the argument that oh well we went from Catholic Ireland to divorce, choice and Gay marriage so aren't we so progressive and we can handle multiculturalism too.... Slight problem with that. All of those have been present throughout human history across many different cultures already. They have been acceptable before. They wax and wane over time. Thing is tribalism and group affiliation even up to all out racism are even more writ through our species and across damned near every culture and time.

No one nation has any god given right to exclude another human-being from being allowed to enter their country, that is simply national ghettoism on a global stage, a country that doesnt allow for multiculturalism is a ghetto of its own people, isolated and removed from the rest of the world.

Most successful nations throughout history did just that. Those that were "multicultural" were so through imperial domination. Never mind that just because you don't have large populations of non natives, doesn't make a country isolated and removed. I don't see how nationhood is so denigrated, though it's almost exclusively denigrated among White nations. Few Asians or Africans would hold the same view. The vast majority are very proud of their nationhood and cultures. They certainly don't have the gra to water to down with outsiders for "diversity". It's a recent thing with White thought on the matter. Post world war two really. The thumbnail sketch being nations caused that, therefore nations baaaaad m'kay.

Forced multiculturalism, resulting from say a large group of people arriving on a boats fleeing a famine, has many challenges, exploitation, fear of the unknown, slavery and so on. I example the way white Irish immigrants were looked at by English and Americans when we moved into their territory, we were seen as black to them (No Irish and no blacks wanted posters anyone?). and yes we too did form into our own little groups and areas until we eventually were accepted and then we thrived in their culture while expressing our own. Non white people have a much tougher time integrating simple because of the colour of their skin, its a hidden feature in the human psyche that just because someone looks different to your own eyes that you cannot accept them just for who they are, mere humans. If multiculturalism is a choice, done in a way thats for the benefits of both parties it can and does work. We are bringing in educated people, doctors for example, who are replacing those Irish born doctors who have moved to Australia or wherever, its a revolving system we are very much part of ourselves.

There's a few things going on there. The usual "ah sure the Irish emigrated too" as one example. And a common one. Difference being for the vast majority of that history the same Irish people had to sink or swim in their adoptive, usually colonial nations. There was no social welfare outside the gates of Ellis island.

Then we have the "we're bringing in doctors" angle. Yup and I would bet the farm nobody has an issue with qualified people of any background coming to this country. How many of the influx two decades ago were educated professionals coming here legally? How many of the so called "refugees" crossing the Mediterranean in rubber dinghies today are?

And there's nothing hidden about the different skin colour equals different treatment. It's quite overt. And largely intractable, unless the different skin colour is a novelty as a tiny minority.

As for multiculturalism as a choice. That's the problem, it hasn't been. In Ireland it happened on the back of a "boom" and a legal loophole, one the Irish people latterly rejected by a large majority. I wonder if the same electorate had been asked to vote before we got "diversity" dropped on us, would they have voted no. I'd bet they would. And even if it's a choice, again how do we magically avoid the problems of every other nation that has struggled with it. Please tell us. I hear this a lot, but nobody comes up with actual workable solutions that take into account human nature and history. It's just the usual happy clappy talk of "inclusion" and "good feelings". And that doesn't seem to be working.

Limpy

Deleted User wrote: »

We signed up for free movement of Europeans and those with valid visas. We didn't sign up for what has evolved from the original agreement.



Except that's not the case. France is pretty much the only colonial nation apart from Belgium who gave citizenship to their colonies and encouraged them to come to Europe. The BE never encouraged their colonials of other racial groups to come to Britain as cheap labor. Most modern racial diversity is the result of Germany importing Turks, which fed into the EU encouraging the importation of cheap labor. A modern phenomenon rather than a result of colonialsim...

When do people stop paying for the behavior of their great grandparents? How many generations before they can't be blamed for behavior long before they were born and capable of affecting events?



Huh? This part makes no sense to me, considering what you said previously.

I know many Europeans who are not white and practise Islamic religion. They are EU citizens born in EU countries.

Hamachi

larva wrote: »

There is even a DOG in the picture too, ohh the HORROR of it all!!? The end is NIGH!! Would spreading the fear and intolerance be a better approach for government to adopt?

Can you engage with Wibbs’ argument instead of resorting to hyperbole?

The better approach for the government to adopt is to actually implement a skills-based migration policy that works for this country. This would eliminate fear and intolerance at source.