What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

CruelCoin

jmreire wrote: »

Had jackie Chan been there, would it have made a difference???

I have no idea.
I'm responding to the claim that they're martial "experts".

CruelCoin

jmreire wrote: »

No its not unfortunate , while you hide behind a false name, here on board's you are quite safe. However, next time you see a crowd of Irish gathered around , just jump into the middle of them and shout " The Irish around the world are like rats". But in that case, the outcome might be very unfortunate for you and your choice of words ,,,

Semantics.

You know full well that he was referring to the rapid spread of Irish around the world, for various reasons. In many cases in a fashion that might have certain negative labels attached.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Emmigration fine, immigration bad. You don't see the double standard in this line of thinking?

weldoninhio

CruelCoin wrote: »

Semantics.

You know full well that he was referring to the rapid spread of Irish around the world, for various reasons. In many cases in a fashion that might have certain negative labels attached.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Emmigration fine, immigration bad. You don't see the double standard in this line of thinking?

Emigration in the 1850’s fine. Unskilled immigration in the 2010’s not fine. It’s almost as if the world has changed massively in that time.

biko

Kivaro wrote: »

There is a special hatred of Irish people and the Irish Nation as a whole when you have a poster actually writing on a public forum that we spread like "rats".

It's Oikophobia.
The term has been used to refer to political ideologies that repudiate one's own culture and laud others.

WrenBoy

CruelCoin wrote: »

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Emmigration fine, immigration bad. You don't see the double standard in this line of thinking?

To reduce something so massively complex to this .....

ByTheSea2019

It annoys me when I see previous Irish emigration framed as charity to us by other countries. Countries that took Irish emigrants in the past did so because it suited them and they needed them and they do today e.g. visa requirements to be highly skilled or under 45 etc. We need to have the same respect for our own borders.

We need better statistics and analysis of the cost of immigration too in my opinion to know how much to allow. I believe it is causing problems in my local area as we see Irish people avoiding one of the main primary schools and sending their kids to other villages because the lack of English among the children in the class is holding things up too much. These people are doing unskilled work while many local Irish are on benefits and there is an estate where they have been for generations. I suspect the costs outweigh the advantages of this immigration but I'm not aware of any statistics or economic analysis to know.

Give these roles to local benefit claimants and make benefits conditional on it. We are sleep-walking into all the social problems the UK has without learning any lessons from them.

Sand

biko wrote: »

I see this in other countries also. US, Sweden etc. Of course there the numbers are higher, in Sweden 2015 it was around 11000 that have gone into hiding when faced with deportation.

We are getting away from the topic of multiculturalism though.
From 10 years ago

So, the biggest failure of multiculturalism is not that it has failed to create a sense of belonging among minorities but that it has paid too little attention to how to sustain support among parts of the white population, who are sceptical about the ability to retain a minority ethnic or religious identity while being British and who perceive conflict over resources (especially access to social housing) with immigrants and ethnic minorities. If I recall correctly, the

Addressing these concerns is what needs to be done if Roy Jenkins’ ambitions for equal opportunity and cultural diversity to thrive in an atmosphere of mutual tolerance are to become anything like reality

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/multiculturalism-immigration-support-white-population/

I have to say I find the underlined sections really telling. The writer acknowledges the indigenous/white population don't want multiculturalism, but he completely ignores the possibility of listening to them seriously. Multiculturalism is never recognized as the problem by the great and the good. The problem instead is reframed as the rejection of multiculturalism by the indigenous people who are disadvantaged by it. The indigenous/white population do not need to be listened to seriously - they instead need to be managed like a difficult child while the policy they reject is implemented regardless. If I recall correctly a mainstream paper in the UK published an article back in 2015 or similar which accepted that up to a third of British people were alienated from British society but they could be safely ignored/managed because they didn't vote.

Brexit was a rebellion against this sort of top-down mentality that dominates the UK in particular and Europe/US more generally.

Sand

CruelCoin wrote: »

Semantics.

You know full well that he was referring to the rapid spread of Irish around the world, for various reasons. In many cases in a fashion that might have certain negative labels attached.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Emmigration fine, immigration bad. You don't see the double standard in this line of thinking?

I'd imagine whenever an Islamic terrorist suicide bombs innocent commuters in a European capital you'd be quick out to proclaim that the actions of individuals cant be used to smear an entire ethnic group. Not all Muslims, right?

But here you are assigning a racial guilt and penance to all Irish people, when the Irish people today are almost entirely the descendants of people who did not emigrate anywhere.

Funny how principled views are always flexible enough to be to the disadvantage of Europeans.

Sand

Wibbs wrote: »

This old chestnut. Again? When Irish people "spread like rats" in the vast majority of cases they went to ex colonial New World nations that were built on immigration. Ireland is not an ex colonial New World nation. Those same nations today BTW have far stricter entry requirements

We have to be careful on the 'melting pot' and 'immigration nation' narratives even in the case of nations like the USA. They are largely invented. Europeans did not immigrate to the USA. Europeans settled on the east coast of north America, and they built the USA over the heads of the indigenous peoples - rightly or wrongly.

America simply was not all that attractive to Europeans - the earliest settlers were religious fanatics, dissidents and those otherwise compelled to find somewhere far from authority. There was no social welfare or free housing. The vast majority of US population growth in any given year came from those born in America, not those who immigrated to it.

What is telling is that now the whole 'melting pot' and 'immigration nation' narratives are being copy and pasted from the USA to Ireland where very rapidly demographics have shifted so that up to one in five of Irish residents are foreign born. Far greater than ever occurred in the history of an 'immigration nation' like the USA. One in five foreign born implies the ethnic Irish are certainly less than four in five, perhaps even less than three in four when the children of the foreign born families are considered. That is why I would warn against given the whole 'melting pot' narrative any credence. Give an inch...

Wibbs

CruelCoin wrote: »

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Emmigration fine, immigration bad. You don't see the double standard in this line of thinking?

Me. Earlier. wrote: »

This old chestnut. Again? When Irish people "spread like rats" in the vast majority of cases they went to ex colonial New World nations that were built on immigration. Ireland is not an ex colonial New World nation. Those same nations today BTW have far stricter entry requirements.

The same nations had little or no social welfare it was sink or swim. Ireland has one of the most attractive social welfare systems on the planet.

The same nations needed bodies for settlers and manual labour. Ireland is a knowledge based economy. The numbers required for unskilled labour can't begin to compare to 19th, even up to the middle 20th century America.

An entirely different set of circumstances occurred in the past which don't reflect the current circumstances in Ireland or Europe for that matter, so it's entirely ridiculous to compare them.

Never mind that Irish emigration in the past was almost entirely to the same colonial nations that were made up of a majority of White Europeans(and mostly Christian in culture). Even so the path was hardly smooth for them because of small differences. Yet apparently a significant number of people from different ethnicities and cultures and religions will fit in just fine. Again point us to when and where in history that worked? Again point us to current multicultural nations in Europe(or in her ex colonies for that matter)where the same narratives around the same demographics and the same extra social issues aren't in play?

CruelCoin

Sand wrote: »

I'd imagine whenever an Islamic terrorist suicide bombs innocent commuters in a European capital you'd be quick out to proclaim that the actions of individuals cant be used to smear an entire ethnic group. Not all Muslims, right?

Don't put words in my mouth. An ideaology and a culture that enables negative behaviour reflects on the entire group, not only the individual. That applies for catholic kiddy fliddling, muslim bombers, etc.

Sand wrote: »

But here you are assigning a racial guilt and penance to all Irish people, when the Irish people today are almost entirely the descendants of people who did not emigrate anywhere.

Irish people did flee like rats from the ship. Repeatedly. You can hate that word all you like.

Kivaro

First, the Irish spread like rats, now we "did flee" like rats.
It is a very sad individual who equates Irish people to rats; it is almost like there is a perverse satisfaction in repeating the insult.
Now imagine for one moment if anyone said the same thing about Nigerians fleeing their country like rats. There would be uproar.

Sand

CruelCoin wrote: »

Don't put words in my mouth. An ideaology and a culture that enables negative behaviour reflects on the entire group, not only the individual. That applies for catholic kiddy fliddling, muslim bombers, etc.

So, just to clarify, your view is that all Muslims are responsible for 9/11? Or the Bataclan massacre? Or the 7/7 bombings?

Sand

Kivaro wrote: »

First, the Irish spread like rats, now we "did flee" like rats.
It is a very sad individual who equates Irish people to rats; it is almost like there is a perverse satisfaction in repeating the insult.
Now imagine for one moment if anyone said the same thing about Nigerians fleeing their country like rats. There would be uproar.

You have to wonder if the mods would tolerate any other people being repeatedly described as rats. Certainly in the context of immigrants.

Wibbs

Sand wrote: »

You have to wonder if the mods would tolerate any other people being repeatedly described as rats. Certainly in the context of immigrants.

It's not the mods, it's the current mainstream culture. You can - outside of some collectively decided upon protected groups - say what you like about those who are White, European and nominally "christian" in background with little or no fear of censure, and you will have plenty of the self hating/Right On/White Guilt types who will cheer it on. Why? Because it's an astoundingly simplistic duality of identity politics and the oppressor narrative and people like simple answers to questions, especially questions they've barely asked in the first place.

The very subject of this thread a good example. Multiculturalism is great and welcome. Yet as we've seen on this thread when pushed for the whys, the answers are thin gruel indeed, boiled down to exoticism and charity with a large side order of the above White Guilt stuff. This hits home more among the Irish psyche as like Jewish culture we made guilt a sacrament. Revisionism too and a distancing ourselves from our past where it suits.

Burkie1203

CruelCoin wrote: »

Semantics.

You know full well that he was referring to the rapid spread of Irish around the world, for various reasons. In many cases in a fashion that might have certain negative labels attached.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Emmigration fine, immigration bad. You don't see the double standard in this line of thinking?

Have Irish people got large immigration groups demanding the country they go to is turned into Ireland for them?

Do Irish people demand their adopted home give them businesses or do they get free houses and living expenses?

Do these Irish people get coached by the NGO type set ups on how to game the system and plead racism at every step along the way?


I think most Irish people are fine with immigration until it reaches a point where immigrants are getting far more from our system having contributed nothing.

Tell me how

Wibbs wrote: »

It's not the mods, it's the current mainstream culture. You can - outside of some collectively decided upon protected groups - say what you like about those who are White, European and nominally "christian" in background with little or no fear of censure, and you will have plenty of the self hating/Right On/White Guilt types who will cheer it on. Why? Because it's an astoundingly simplistic duality of identity politics and the oppressor narrative and people like simple answers to questions, especially questions they've barely asked in the first place.

The very subject of this thread a good example. Multiculturalism is great and welcome. Yet as we've seen on this thread when pushed for the whys, the answers are thin gruel indeed, boiled down to exoticism and charity with a large side order of the above White Guilt stuff. This hits home more among the Irish psyche as like Jewish culture we made guilt a sacrament. Revisionism too and a distancing ourselves from our past where it suits.

Very true. A lot of the arguments against multiculturalism at the present time are very familiar to those levied against early Irish settlers in America but there is a revisionism and distancing from that also.

The Boston Irish by Thomas O'Connor is one book which shows examples of this in some detail iirc.

Wibbs

Tell me how wrote: »

Very true. A lot of the arguments against multiculturalism at the present time are very familiar to those levied against early Irish settlers in America but there is a revisionism and distancing from that also.

Indeed there is and Boston and her environs would be another good example of the social issues and schisms that occur with "multiculturalism" when a large enough population shift comes along, and that's in a colony nation that was still growing and still talking about "huddled masses" being welcome, and of two groups whose differences were actually tiny, and were the same "race" and the same basic creed with it. And what happened? Hostility open and hidden, discrimination open and hidden, ghettoisation, a rise in criminality and so forth. It took quite a while for the Boston Irish to make headway and there are still divisions within and without the various diaspora along ethnic, economic and class lines. That's before we look to Boston's African Americans who once were few in number but now more like a quarter of the population and their own trials and tribulations inside and outside of the melting pot experiment.

doublejobbing 2

Wibbs wrote: »

It's not the mods, it's the current mainstream culture. You can - outside of some collectively decided upon protected groups - say what you like about those who are White, European and nominally "christian" in background with little or no fear of censure, and you will have plenty of the self hating/Right On/White Guilt types who will cheer it on. Why? Because it's an astoundingly simplistic duality of identity politics and the oppressor narrative and people like simple answers to questions, especially questions they've barely asked in the first place.

The very subject of this thread a good example. Multiculturalism is great and welcome. Yet as we've seen on this thread when pushed for the whys, the answers are thin gruel indeed, boiled down to exoticism and charity with a large side order of the above White Guilt stuff. This hits home more among the Irish psyche as like Jewish culture we made guilt a sacrament. Revisionism too and a distancing ourselves from our past where it suits.

There was a discussion on Matt Cooper last night about some study of which accents people find annoying. The participants pointed out to the flaw of "American accents" being judged annoying, seeing as there are so many of these accents.

Matt confessed he finds the Boston accent grating.
One panelist admitted she wasn't hot on Texan accents.

If I was on the panel, I would have opined "I seriously can't tolerate the way most black Americans talk".

I don't actually mind their accent at all. I'd just say it to see the absolute Twitter nuclear holocaust it would have set off :pac:

Kivaro

Watching a doctor on Sky News this morning trying to explain the reasons why BAME people over 80 are less likely than their white counterparts to get the Covid vaccination. He said that many who will not get the jab tie in the vaccinations with the BLM movement. Would BAME people prefer POC to give them the jab? WTF is wrong with them. People will die because of this mindset. More collateral damage from this hideous, racist movement.

If BAME people do not take this vaccination, then they put the whole community at risk. This is another clear example of the failings of multiculturalism.

Mr. Karate

Kivaro wrote: »

Watching a doctor on Sky News this morning trying to explain the reasons why BAME people over 80 are less likely than their white counterparts to get the Covid vaccination. He said that many who will not get the jab tie in the vaccinations with the BLM movement. Would BAME people prefer POC to give them the jab? WTF is wrong with them. People will die because of this mindset. More collateral damage from this hideous, racist movement.

If BAME people do not take this vaccination, then they put the whole community at risk. This is another clear example of the failings of multiculturalism.

Let them have this mindset back in their own Countries. We shouldn't have to tolerate this hateful attitude in our own Countries.

Mr. Karate

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Let them have this mindset back in their own Countries. We shouldn't have to tolerate this hateful attitude in our own Countries.

What will you do with our own loolas who won't take the vaccination?

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

What will you do with our own loolas who won't take the vaccination?

At least with our own "loolas", we will have common ground in culture, and values, giving us a chance to convince them as to what's best.

With others, there is no such common ground. Logic is not applied equally, or in the same manner, around the world.

Sand

bubblypop wrote: »

What will you do with our own loolas who won't take the vaccination?

Our own loolas? Interesting how even you differentiate between us and them.

suicide_circus

biko wrote: »

It's Oikophobia.
The term has been used to refer to political ideologies that repudiate one's own culture and laud others.

It's a kind of exotic fetishism and is, at it's base, racist.

suicide_circus

Wibbs wrote: »

It's not the mods, it's the current mainstream culture. You can - outside of some collectively decided upon protected groups - say what you like about those who are White, European and nominally "christian" in background with little or no fear of censure, and you will have plenty of the self hating/Right On/White Guilt types who will cheer it on. Why? Because it's an astoundingly simplistic duality of identity politics and the oppressor narrative and people like simple answers to questions, especially questions they've barely asked in the first place.

The very subject of this thread a good example. Multiculturalism is great and welcome. Yet as we've seen on this thread when pushed for the whys, the answers are thin gruel indeed, boiled down to exoticism and charity with a large side order of the above White Guilt stuff. This hits home more among the Irish psyche as like Jewish culture we made guilt a sacrament. Revisionism too and a distancing ourselves from our past where it suits.

Excellent post

Biafranlivemat

Tell me how wrote: »

Very true. A lot of the arguments against multiculturalism at the present time are very familiar to those levied against early Irish settlers in America but there is a revisionism and distancing from that also.

The Boston Irish by Thomas O'Connor is one book which shows examples of this in some detail iirc.

That book is excellent. Great read.


I used to live in Boston, USA, and got the hell out, before our oldest child, had to go to school.
Yes, instead of sending our children to the wonderful Multicultural Boston school system, we decided to move to a boring white suburb with it's safe/sane/97% white schools.


We and the kids, don't regret it.
For thou that disagree.

Please convince me, that we made a mistake.

Marcos

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

That book is excellent. Great read.


I used to live in Boston, USA, and got the hell out, before our oldest child, had to go to school.
Yes, instead of sending our children to the wonderful Multicultural Boston school system, we decided to move to a boring white suburb with it's safe/sane/97% white schools.


We and the kids, don't regret it.
For thou that disagree.

Please convince me, that we made a mistake.

I was curious as I'd never heard anything about the Boston School System, so I googled and came across desegregation and bussing. The only thing I knew about bussing was from old news reports of black schoolkids being escorted by national guardsmen into schools in the south. I didn't realise it was a two way thing with white school kids being bussed into predominantly black schools with unintended consequences. White flight, lawyers being attacked while exiting a courthouse, others being put in a coma in retaliation, pupils being stabbed and schools closed down as a result. I can see that the Boston education authorities had to comply with a court ruling, but in forcibly trying to combat desegregation it exacerbated the problem and led directly to white flight.

In 1987, a federal appeals court ruled that Boston had successfully implemented its desegregation plan and was in compliance with civil rights law.[8] Although 13 public schools were defined as "racially identifiable," with over 80 percent of the student population either white or black, the court ruled "all these schools are in compliance with the district court's desegregation orders" because their make-up "is rooted not in discrimination but in more intractable demographic obstacles."[17]

Before the desegregation plan went into effect, overall enrollment and white enrollment in Boston Public Schools was in decline as the Baby Boom ended, gentrification altered the economic makeup of the city, and Jewish, Irish and Italian immigrant populations moved to the suburbs while black, Hispanic, and Asian populations moved to the city. Although the busing plan, by its very nature, shaped the enrollment at specific schools, it is unclear what effect it had on underlying demographic trends. By the time the court-controlled busing system ended in 1988, the Boston school district had shrunk from 100,000 students to 57,000, only 15% of whom were white.

I wonder about what other unintended consequences may have resulted from this and other similar policies. I realise this isn't anything to do with a specifically Irish context, but to me it's an indication that if things aren't handled correctly they can cause the exact problems they are supposed to solve, or make them worse.

The Nal

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Denise chaila is a perfect example of the few positives of immigration , the right people coming in producing the right results in integration and contribution to society

Agree but what's the craic with her accent?

ELM327

Wibbs wrote: »

It's not the mods, it's the current mainstream culture. You can - outside of some collectively decided upon protected groups - say what you like about those who are White, European and nominally "christian" in background with little or no fear of censure, and you will have plenty of the self hating/Right On/White Guilt types who will cheer it on. Why? Because it's an astoundingly simplistic duality of identity politics and the oppressor narrative and people like simple answers to questions, especially questions they've barely asked in the first place.

The very subject of this thread a good example. Multiculturalism is great and welcome. Yet as we've seen on this thread when pushed for the whys, the answers are thin gruel indeed, boiled down to exoticism and charity with a large side order of the above White Guilt stuff. This hits home more among the Irish psyche as like Jewish culture we made guilt a sacrament. Revisionism too and a distancing ourselves from our past where it suits.

Great post, from a poster that I don't normally agree with.



I think is approaching /thread territory.