What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Wibbs

Acosta wrote: »

Yeah, you can hear a bit of that in her voice. But then so what? A friend of mine has been mistaken for an American on more than one occasion because he has such a soft Cork accent. Also I was in school with lads who sounded very American for some reason. I guess they just loved American things a lot. Each to their own I guess.

A "bit of that"? She sounds 100% American. Americans would certainly assume she was. No American accent gets close to a soft Cork one. Certainly not to another Irish person. Sounding American is an affectation and a recent enough one with it. Previously there was some aping of a middle class English accent mostly contained to the leafier burbs of south County Dublin. The D4 accent came out of that and slowly became more yank with time.

This mid Atlantic trend is far more widespread and countrywide and generally found more with young women. Some are subtle enough, others are like the woman in the video and much more obvious, though she's an extreme example. US media has certainly played a large part in it, though I grew up with Irish and British TV that had a lot of US programming, but none of my peers ended up with a British or American accent(even a couple who actually lived and worked in the States). That said the Irish have long had an insecurity around some of their accents. In the 50's and 60's we had more elocution teachers than anywhere in Europe. To take the rural twang off the newly minted and upwardly mobile urbanites(again more common in girl's schools*). What "class" delineations exist in Ireland can be very accent based.




*women have been seen as more socially mobile compared to men so polishing them up was hoped to have them "marry well".

Wibbs

WrenBoy wrote: »

"survive" ... please

Indeed, and how pray tell does someone "pass in White spaces" in Limerick do so by sounding like she's from the posher areas of New York state? Actually thinking more on it I can see a logic in her thinking. Maybe she copied the American accent to actually mark herself out? To appear more exotic, because she'd be seen as that anyway, but on the other hand familiar at the same time. A Limerick or general Irish accent would mark her out differently, less of a novelty, but not quite "Irish" because she isn't native and she looks different, so might make her more of a target. Novelties fit in more.

Acosta

Acosta wrote: »

Yeah, you can hear a bit of that in her voice. But then so what? A friend of mine has been mistaken for an American on more than one occasion because he has such a soft Cork accent. Also I was in school with lads who sounded very American for some reason. I guess they just loved American things a lot. Each to their own I guess.

Most people believe that my accent is quite American at times, because there is a hint of a twang. A combination of my Midlands accent and an American twang.. because I worked for some American companies, alongside a variety of Americans, along with having some close friends from there.. but it's still only a twang. My Irish accent is still quite noticeable.

While I don't have much issue with her accent... it's an American accent through and through. It's not a twang. It's the accent of someone who either spends substantial amount of time in the US, or has worked hard on acquiring that accent. I see my Chinese students working to get their own American or British accents.. and their accents are rarely as strong as hers (unless they've spent a few years there studying, and even then... not so much)

To have that kind of accent she would need to be actively mimicking what she's hearing on TV/movies.

Acosta

Wibbs wrote: »

A "bit of that"? She sounds 100% American. Americans would certainly assume she was. No American accent gets close to a soft Cork one. Certainly not to another Irish person. [/SIZE]

Yeah, to me her accent sounds fairly neutral most of the time I've heard her speak. Maybe I'm wrong, but so many Irish people speak like that I hardly even notice it anymore. In fairness it was foreigners that thought my buddy was American based on his accent.

Effects

Effects wrote: »

It's a bit callous to say his family are just trying to jump on a gravy train.

I prefer callous to gullible.

Wibbs

Acosta wrote: »

Yeah, to me her accent sounds fairly neutral most of the time I've heard her speak. Maybe I'm wrong, but so many Irish people speak like that I hardly even notice it anymore.

I've never heard any Irish born person who grew up here speak with an American accent that strong, that polished even among those who try to affect that accent. They tend to overdo and exaggerate it for effect. There's nothing neutral about her accent at all in an Irish context. Maybe in an American context alright, because it's a fluent middle class neutral American accent.

In fairness it was foreigners that thought my buddy was American based on his accent.

That I could understand alright.

Then again some people have an ear for accents and can spot them more easily than others. I'd be fairly good at placing an accent even with some overlays because of travel. To the point where it can put me off some dramas on the telly where actors "do" another accent. EG when Hugh Laurie played House I found his accent very grating and exaggerated, yet many Americans were apparently shocked when they found out he was English. Andrew Lincoln in the Walking Dead's accent was much better, though every so often drifted into "wut" territory for me. I suppose maybe Americans accept it more because they have so many accents across their nation so so long as someone is in the ballpark they're accepted? Canadians just turn up and avoid saying "oot". If she was in an American drama I'd not bat an eyelid.


People are often oblivious to their own accents and speech patterns. I had a convo with an English lad and we were comparing accents he couldn't hear he was doing that F thing with Th sounds. "I fink my fing" is broken kinda thing. He found it hard to say "drawing" instead of "drawring" too. The Irish can have their Tirty tree and a tird thing too.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

People are often oblivious to their own accents and speech patterns. I had a convo with an English lad and we were comparing accents he couldn't hear he was doing that F thing with Th sounds. "I fink my fing" is broken kinda thing. He found it hard to say "drawing" instead of "drawring" too. The Irish can have their Tirty tree and a tird thing too.

Totally. I have issues saying 'mirror'.. blending the R's, which sends my students into the giggles. I didn't notice it myself until I started teaching English pronunciation, and have found a variety of other... awkward sounds... My parents don't have any similar issues, but I've found that both my older brother/sister have the same problem.

seenitall

I find it maddeningly ear-grating and horribly-sounding when I hear people here in the west say e.g. “Sahurday” instead of Saturday. Ugh
I cheekily pointed it out to someone doing it once, and they couldn’t even hear it for themselves at all.

(This is highly ironic, I know, beacause I myself have a heavy EE accent which will never leave me!)

Sand

I don't mind accents to be honest once you can follow what is being said - a twang is one thing, incomprehensible gibberish is another. As far as the Irish go, 70-80 years ago the anglo-irish imitation of British received pronunciation was all the rage. Now its 'American'. But the logic is the same (collaboration with power) and the criticism of it is the same (discarding your own identity). It is a microcosm of the whole multicultural argument and shows that instinctively people value their own group identity - even on something as trivial as how they speak.


If we truly end up as the Star Trek one world government multi cultists dream of, it will speak with one neutral mid Atlantic accent. Wont that be wonderful.

Sand

Sand wrote: »

If we truly end up as the Star Trek one world government multi cultists dream of, it will speak with one neutral mid Atlantic accent. Wont that be wonderful.

Actually, that (the universal accent) is highly unlikely because people raised speaking particular languages (say Mandarin or traditional Japanese) have serious problems replicating the sounds in, say English. There are many who can do it, but many more who can't. And that's actual language.. accents carry inflections which aren't always covered from formal sources, and shift depending on local conditions.

I have no fear of all accents disappearing.. new ones are created all the time.. the rage might be to create new vocabulary right now, but the most natural progression in any society are accents that reflect a peoples cultural/social identity. Look at Ireland, the relatively low population (compared to other countries) and the sheer amount of accents available.

Biafranlivemat

Acosta wrote: »

Ya because no other Irish person has ever sung with an American accent before.

Big Tom and the Mainliners

stefanovich

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

Big Tom and the Mainliners

What gets me is fake American accents on radio ads. Are we supposed to be in awe of Americans or something?

Effects

weldoninhio wrote: »

By their accounts there were 35 armed Gardai, he was holding a butter knife and was laying on the ground surrendering when he was shot.

You're making most of that up, to be fair.

biko

Yes, only the butter knife is true.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/george-nkencho-shooting-racial-tensions-in-dublin-s-suburbs-1.4452459

Following Nkencho’s death, false information spread across many platforms, inflaming tensions.

These included assertions that he was armed with just a butter knife (it was a sharp kitchen knife),
that he was surrounded by 15 armed gardaí (only two of the gardaí in the front garden carried weapons),
and that he was shot with no provocation.

weldoninhio

Effects wrote: »

You're making most of that up, to be fair.

No I’m not. His brother made all those claims on social media and his speech threatening the Garda who shot the knife wielding thug.

enricoh

weldoninhio wrote: »

No I’m not. His brother made all those claims on social media and his speech threatening the Garda who shot the knife wielding thug.

Blanchardstown has the highest covid rate in the country now, I wonder how many can be attributed to the protests over saint george.
We all got to hear the reasons belmullet cavan etc got such high rates, no doubt we'll hear the same in the media about blanch!

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health/covid-worst-hit-revealed-find-the-incidence-rate-in-your-local-area-40087404.html

The Blanchardstown electoral area in northwest Dublin is the worst-hit Covid spot in the country, latest figures reveal.

The 14-day incidence rate from January 26 until February 8 in Blanchardstown-Mulhuddart is 756.2 per 100,000 population

doublejobbing 2

enricoh wrote: »

Blanchardstown has the highest covid rate in the country now, I wonder how many can be attributed to the protests over saint george.
We all got to hear the reasons belmullet cavan etc got such high rates, no doubt we'll hear the same in the media about blanch!

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health/covid-worst-hit-revealed-find-the-incidence-rate-in-your-local-area-40087404.html

The Blanchardstown electoral area in northwest Dublin is the worst-hit Covid spot in the country, latest figures reveal.

The 14-day incidence rate from January 26 until February 8 in Blanchardstown-Mulhuddart is 756.2 per 100,000 population

Well in the UK minority groups having higher rates of Covid are blamed on white society rather than the individuals concerned not having bothered with distancing etc so I would imagine if it is the same here a similar reason will be found.

Howard Beale

weldoninhio wrote: »

No I’m not. His brother made all those claims on social media and his speech threatening the Garda who shot the knife wielding thug.

Thats nothing. There was a video floating around facebook after the shooting that night with women associated to the family saying he was totally unarmed!

Why do you think the family want the video of the shooting taken down offline even saying to independent inquiry the original poster needs to be identified. They want no one seeing or even knowing about that huge knife.

Effects

Howard Beale wrote: »

They want no one seeing or even knowing about that huge knife.

Or maybe they don't want videos circulating of their son/brother, as he is shot dead, being shard on the internet.

It was just a regular kitchen knife. I don't refer to my own kitchen knives as huge.
They are still dangerous outside of their intended setting and use.

Effects

Effects wrote: »

Or maybe they don't want videos circulating of their son/brother, as he is shot dead, being shard on the internet.

It was just a regular kitchen knife. I don't refer to my own kitchen knives as huge.
They are still dangerous outside of their intended setting and use.

kitchen knives can be of all sizes depending on their function.

In any case, folks, we're heading off topic with this.

Bobblehats

Exhibit A is a particular instrument of terror. You can imagine famous monster Micheal Myers, wielding it on one of his killing sprees. Still dangerous....

Effects

Deleted User wrote: »

kitchen knives can be of all sizes depending on their function.

None of those look huge though, just a range from standard size chef's knife to a small paring knife.

Maybe it would make sense to describe what he had as a standard kitchen knife, or just a kitchen knife.

Dyr

Effects wrote: »

Non of those look huge though, just a range from standard size chef's knife to a small paring knife.

Maybe it would make sense to describe what he had as a standard kitchen knife, or just a kitchen knife.

Because being stabbed with a kitchen knife isnt all that bad?

Effects

Bambi wrote: »

Because being stabbed with a kitchen knife isn't all that bad?

Have a read of the earlier posts before you wade in with your opinion that getting stabbed with a kitchen knife isn't that bad.

Effects

Effects wrote: »

Have a read of the earlier posts before you wade in with your opinion that getting stabbed with a kitchen knife isn't that bad.

Don't see why the poster needs to read the earlier posts. I understood the post to mean that getting stabbed by a kitchen knife would be pretty damn bad.

Let me put it this way. When I was a teenager, my hometown went through a period where knives were 'cool'. Butterfly knives, switchblades, etc. They became pretty common, until the fights outside bars (or our two crappy clubs) escalated to the use of knives.. and the subsequent sentencing and/or family feuds.

Now.. all of those knives which became common back then were relatively narrow blades, designed for concealment, but generally quite flimsy. Also designed for stabbing. A kitchen knife is generally quite broader, is designed to swing/chop/cut with some weight behind it... and since it doesn't need to be concealed, there's no need to remove weight, balance etc. And depending on the materials used, and how it was made, it could easily have been razor sharp.

I seriously question the morality of anyone who wants to downplay the danger and use of a kitchen knife by someone who apparently had mental problems, and the intent to cause harm to others.

Now.. I'm finished with this subject. There was another thread about that nutcase.

Effects

Deleted User wrote: »

A kitchen knife is generally quite broader, is designed to swing/chop/cut with some weight behind it... and since it doesn't need to be concealed, there's no need to remove weight, balance etc. And depending on the materials used, and how it was made, it could easily have been razor sharp.

I seriously question the morality of anyone who wants to downplay the danger and use of a kitchen knife by someone who apparently had mental problems, and the intent to cause harm to others.

I wasn't downplaying the the danger of a kitchen knife, which is why I asked him to reread my earlier post. It's the sensationalisation of the incident I don't agree with.

I know exactly how dangerous a kitchen knife can be, I had a friend stabbed and killed with one when I was 18.

AlekSmart

Sand wrote: »

I don't mind accents to be honest once you can follow what is being said - a twang is one thing, incomprehensible gibberish is another. As far as the Irish go, 70-80 years ago the anglo-irish imitation of British received pronunciation was all the rage. Now its 'American'. But the logic is the same (collaboration with power) and the criticism of it is the same (discarding your own identity). It is a microcosm of the whole multicultural argument and shows that instinctively people value their own group identity - even on something as trivial as how they speak.


If we truly end up as the Star Trek one world government multi cultists dream of, it will speak with one neutral mid Atlantic accent. Wont that be wonderful.

Well,Holy God Sandy,just look at what's popped up in the Indo......

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/0215/1197202-immigrant-council-conference/

The Head of Religions and Senior Lecturer in Contemporary Islam and Chair of Race Equality at UCC ( :eek:) said difficult questions needed to be answered in Ireland.

Amanullah De Sondy said it was time for the Irish to outline what it means to be Irish.

He questioned why the diaspora is glorified when they have not "set foot in this country for years".

There y'are now,a backhanded compliment if ever there was one.....delivered in whatever accent you may want to hear it...so much for oul Mary Robinson and her grand notions of the welcoming Candle in de winda.

Anyway,not wanting to dwell on Amanullah's patch too long,we move over to.....

Teresa Buczkowska, who is the Immigrant Council of Ireland's Integration Manager, described a break in coordination and communication from central government to local areas.

She said other local authorities can learn from Fingal County Council when it comes to integration and inclusion.

The representative of those paying the salaries of the other contributors was understandably a wee bit circumspect about the whole thing....

Minister of State Joe O'Brien, who addressed the conference, said the long-standing issue of inequality in Irish society needed to be addressed.

Otherwise, he said migrants will integrate into the different strata of inequalities that are already present.

He noted that migrants make up disproportionately large amounts of people in disadvantaged groups.

Hmmmm,I suspect the other participants were expecting a bit more direct support,rather than some pithy observations on the realpolitik.

Essentially,these folks are looking for MONEY,lots of it to fund their 'studies' and other integrationist pastimes,whilst being very aware of the need to get their stall set out before the vast avalanche of similar "causes" which will soon be trundling along the Post Covid Highway.

For the remainder of us,it's more about whether there will be enough to pay the oul Pínsín to us after our 40 years working at the coalface.

PS : Anybody know offhand what the going rate for a "Head of Religions and Senior Lecturer in Contemporary Islam and Chair of Race Equality" is ?

Kivaro

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well,Holy God Sandy,just look at what's popped up in the Indo......

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/0215/1197202-immigrant-council-conference/



There y'are now,a backhanded compliment if ever there was one.....delivered in whatever accent you may want to hear it...so much for oul Mary Robinson and her grand notions of the welcoming Candle in de winda.

Anyway,not wanting to dwell on Amanullah's patch too long,we move over to.....



The representative of those paying the salaries of the other contributors was understandably a wee bit circumspect about the whole thing....



Hmmmm,I suspect the other participants were expecting a bit more direct support,rather than some pithy observations on the realpolitik.

Essentially,these folks are looking for MONEY,lots of it to fund their 'studies' and other integrationist pastimes,whilst being very aware of the need to get their stall set out before the vast avalanche of similar "causes" which will soon be trundling along the Post Covid Highway.

For the remainder of us,it's more about whether there will be enough to pay the oul Pínsín to us after our 40 years working at the coalface.

PS : Anybody know offhand what the going rate for a "Head of Religions and Senior Lecturer in Contemporary Islam and Chair of Race Equality" is ?

It's always about the money Alek. Always.
From the dawn of history, with the man-made creation of religion, it was always about money (wealth creation) and control.
In Ireland we seem to have boatloads of tax payer money to fund these studies and research. The "Head of Religions and Senior Lecturer in Contemporary Islam and Chair of Race Equality" at UCC is possibly eyeing up the extremely lucrative NGO business in Ireland, and I'm sure in the meantime Amanullah will outline to Irish people what it means to be Irish. Looking at his bio: He has studied Arabic and Islam in France, Jordan, and Syria and has particular interest in Urdu and Punjabi poetry, or ghazals. So no better man than Amanullah to tell us all here in Ireland what it means to be Irish.

It's a bit of a wacky world in Ireland these days, isn't it?

Wibbs

Money is a part of it certainly, particularly for the mouthpieces at the top and NGO's looking for funding. However much of it is also based on an understandable and human optimistic hope that somehow this time it'll be different, that Ireland will be different, most particularly for those on the coalface usually volunteering and of course those looking in hoping it'll be different.

The problem as I see it and have seen it since the start of this thread and western "multiculturalism" coming to this country is that my belief is it won't be any different. We'll get the success stories beaming down from newspaper hoardings, we'll be chastised for being racist from same, we'll have anti racist legislation and we'll have quangos and mouthpieces getting attention and cash, but the exact same trajectories will be in play going forward and the same demographics will trend down the social ladder and the same inter cultural divides will spring up here. Like every single other western "multicultural" nation before us. Never mind going forward, The minister for state in the linked article admits it's already in play here: Otherwise, he said migrants will integrate into the different strata of inequalities that are already present.

It is my view that while some improvements wil happen and they are welcome, the very politic and social experiment that is western "multiculturalism" is a busted flush. It doesn't work too well, especially for many of the non native populations and this is repeated everywhere we care to look in Western Europe and beyond. Now some do better than others and hopefully we'l go down that road(though I have my doubts) and if it wasn't a busted flush we could point to at least one nation where it has, where the same narratives don't play out. But we can't. It's difficult enough to point to another politic and social experiment that is as failed a premise and promise.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Money is a part of it certainly, particularly for the mouthpieces at the top and NGO's looking for funding.

There's also the 'virtue' to be shown, and perhaps more importantly, belonging to a group of like-minded people, who will stroke each others egos over doing good. I suspect the money for most people, except those who have established this as their primary career, is secondary. That's not to say there aren't people who see this industry as an opportunity to get rich.. After all, we saw people join the Church, and many other organisations, to accrue power, influence, and wealth. There will always be some people who see an opportunity, and will take it.

There's a feel good factor involved. I saw it when I did volunteer work, and it meshes extremely well with the American culture of 'Go team, whatever'. People support each other with motivational speeches, and refer constantly to the good that has been done, no matter how small it might be.

Considering how 'alone'/'lonely' people feel in modern society, and that social media reinforces that loneliness rather than counters it, those volunteering or engaged in this activity, will need that contact with others, combined with the adrenaline rush of being complimented on their virtue.

However much of it is also based on an understandable and human optimistic hope that somehow this time it'll be different, that Ireland will be different, most particularly for those on the coalface usually volunteering and of course those looking in hoping it'll be different.

Big time yes. Few people really want to consider that doing something the same way will generate the same results. People crave the belief that their own individual involvement will be that special catalyst to change results of the process. We're special, aren't we? Therefore when I apply these techniques, it will be better... and if it isn't, it's because others resisted and sabotaged my efforts.