What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RobbieTheRobber

kildare lad wrote: »

I don't read the indo, I've enough toilet paper in the house .

Eh what.
You replied with your big long rant to a comment where I asked what was wrong with an article in the indo.

So who exactly made the points you were refuting in your rant. It wasn't me and you don't read the indo website(not sure how you use a Web article as toilet paper). So who were you having a rant about?

kildare lad

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Eh what.
You replied with your big long rant to a comment where I asked what was wrong with an article in the indo.

So who exactly made the points you were refuting in your rant. It wasn't me and you don't read the indo website(not sure how you use a Web article as toilet paper). So who were you having a rant about?

Do you think I'm wrong in any points I laid out in that post when I was referring to people riding the system here , if you think I'm wrong please enlighten me ?

Doctor Roast

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Either mass numbers of migrants come into a country and pay no tax, or they come and take all the high tax, and thus high paying jobs. Either way the borders are not respected and the indigenous are screwed v previous generations.

Look at London, and learn.

I can see multiculturalism here being like the Ballymun housing complex... Sounds great and looked good at the start...then problems

TomTomTim

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Can you show me any country in the world where there aren't social issues.
It seems like you are trying to paint all social issues as the fault of immigrants always. So I assume you can show me a country that has no immigrants and no social issues.

Honestly, you're lucky people on this thread are giving you any time of day at all, as you're constantly putting words in peoples mouths. You're unable to counter arguments are they are, so you've to constantly make stuff up. If you were more self-aware you might realize that there's a good reason for that, one that doesn't entail you being right.

enricoh

TomTomTim wrote: »

Wasn't sure where to post this as there isn't a DP thread on the first few pages, so here will have to do.

Residents of Asbourne House are hunger striking because they aren't being served food by Michelin star chefs

https://twitter.com/NeilRedFM/status/1362366016647548928

In my opinion people like this are completely abusing the good will of the Irish. They aren't fleeing persecution, they are abusing a system that allows itself to be abused.

Make enough noise n the gutless Paddy politicians will speed up giving the spoofers leave to remain. Leave to remain = full welfare benefits, n none of that e40 a week in direct provision rubbish.
They were protesting outside mosney saying it was a concentration camp, they can't get them out of the place now when the get leave to remain! Full benefits, all meals, heating , wifi, free buses etc etc. Sod moving out n paying for esb n all that crap!!

Arthur Daley

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Sometimes I do wonder does anybody tell the migrants 'you're here to pay for our pensions'. And are the migrants fully on board with this plan.

Which for most, automatically implies a life as a tax mule with high accomodation costs to boot. All so us elders, and a few fat cats, can be kept in the style to which we are accustomed.

Maintaining the pension at anything close to the present form is a pipedream.

Costs in this country continue to rise, and considering the debt that the State has accrued throughout covid, taxes will rise too. I seriously doubt there will be much of a pension for anyone (except politicians) within 20 years... especially if the population increases further, and people will likely demand that the newcomers gain the same benefits as those here before them.

Basically, Ireland is not wealthy enough to support it. Not in a practical sense anyway.

We're told that migrants will cover our pensions, because politicians just assume that the public are stupid enough to accept the easy answers. Which we have been. On a wide variety of issues, from immigration to justice.

RobbieTheRobber

kildare lad wrote: »

Do you think I'm wrong in any points I laid out in that post when I was referring to people riding the system here , if you think I'm wrong please enlighten me ?

What points did you make?
That you're mates moved away from you?
That you don't read websites because you can't use them as toilet paper.
I'm not really sure what the points of your post were seeing as it was a reply to me asking about what was wrong with an article for the indo.

Arthur Daley

So really people are being sold a pup here and there is no basis for any non EU migration. Bar extremely specialised positions. I.e. a job that literally cannot be filled by the 300m in the common labour market.

Again are the future pensioners aware of this predicament? If not, what will happen when they find out.

enricoh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Maintaining the pension at anything close to the present form is a pipedream.

Costs in this country continue to rise, and considering the debt that the State has accrued throughout covid, taxes will rise too. I seriously doubt there will be much of a pension for anyone (except politicians) within 20 years... especially if the population increases further, and people will likely demand that the newcomers gain the same benefits as those here before them.

Basically, Ireland is not wealthy enough to support it. Not in a practical sense anyway.

I read last week that ireland's pension liability is increasing by 10% a year! I re-read it twice to make sure. Hopefully sinn fein get in with their magic money tree n sort it out, otherwise we're screwed!!

RobbieTheRobber

Doctor Roast wrote: »

I can see multiculturalism here being like the Ballymun housing complex... Sounds great and looked good at the start...then problems

The ballymun complex was as a result of government policy are you trying to say multiculturalism is a government policy?

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

The ballymun complex was as a result of government policy are you trying to say multiculturalism is a government policy?

I'd agree with that statement in bold. Diversity is our strength. Apparently.

Wibbs

You're avoiding/missing my point like the plague. Mainly because you can't point to an example and it raises too many knotty questions. Not least that it's clearly not down to funding, different governments, different approaches, different levels of social support. All vary, some by quite a bit, but the outcomes remain very similar.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Can you show me any country in the world where there aren't social issues.
It seems like you are trying to paint all social issues as the fault of immigrants always. So I assume you can show me a country that has no immigrants and no social issues.

Indeed so. All countries have social issues. Some worse than others. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. Neither is anyone close to suggesting social issues are "the fault of immigrants always", but nice way to try and twist things.

So we have existing social issues. OK, Answer me this then: Why would you then wilfully and deliberately import more social issues on top? Why would you then wilfully and deliberately import social issues that come with very different challenges to existing ones? Challenges that not a single nation in the "multicultural" west has been able to come up with much by way of long term solutions to. Why would you want to import another underclass?

RobbieTheRobber

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd agree with that statement in bold. Diversity is our strength. Apparently.

Not to put words in your mouth but I assume you don't believe that it is just the policy of this sitting government but for multiple governments. Which makes it the policy of Fianna Fáil and Fianna Gael as the government is always either one of those parties.



As an aside diversity applies to more than just race. For example looking to include more females in a traditionally male area would be an example of trying to make that area more diverse. Or trying to include people with disabilities in areas they previously wouldn't have been included would come under the header diversity.

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

The ballymun complex was as a result of government policy are you trying to say multiculturalism is a government policy?

Of course it is, or has had to become one, because of governmental mistakes of the past. We've gone from almost no multiculturalism to where we are today in two decades. That is a massive shift in a short period of time. The government is trying to respond reactively to it and the clear problems that come with it, problems that are perfectly clear in other multicultural nations who've been dealing with for far longer. And even though it's such a relatively short time for Ireland we're already seeing the exact same narratives of elsewhere playing out here. We're already seeing the growth of a marginalised, ghettoised, urban underclass. No "diversity" drives by government or NGO's seems to have had any affect. Funny that.

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

As an aside diversity applies to more than just race. For example looking to include more females in a traditionally male area would be an example of trying to make that area more diverse.

And we can notice the same ironic if it weren't so transparent narrow focuses with "diversity" in that example. It nearly always only calls for this diversity in traditionally male areas concerning decidedly middle class and soft areas. You never see diversity drives for women in sectors like construction, or waste disposal or mining and the like. Neither do you see diversity drives going the other way, for example looking to include more male teachers in schools, where education is overwhelmingly female.

The diversity on "race" is decidedly focused too. Ireland has well over 200,000 non native Irish people living here who are pale of face Europeans. They barely get a mention if ever in governmental and NGO missives. They may as well not exist. Not "diverse" enough it seems. East Asians aren't exactly high on the list either.

Doctor Roast

Wibbs wrote: »

Of course it is, or has had to become one, because of governmental mistakes of the past. We've gone from almost no multiculturalism to where we are today in two decades. That is a massive shift in a short period of time. The government is trying to respond reactively to it and the clear problems that come with it, problems that are perfectly clear in other multicultural nations who've been dealing with for far longer. And even though it's such a relatively short time for Ireland we're already seeing the exact same narratives of elsewhere playing out here. We're already seeing the growth of a marginalised, ghettoised, urban underclass. No "diversity" drives by government or NGO's seems to have had any affect. Funny that.

Funny I don't remember Ireland being such a sought after destination to live in during the 80s

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

You're avoiding/missing my point like the plague. Mainly because you can't point to an example and it raises too many knotty questions. Not least that it's clearly not down to funding, different governments, different approaches, different levels of social support. All vary, some by quite a bit, but the outcomes remain very similar.
Indeed so. All countries have social issues. Some worse than others. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. Neither is anyone close to suggesting social issues are "the fault of immigrants always", but nice way to try and twist things.

So we have existing social issues. OK, Answer me this then: Why would you then wilfully and deliberately import more social issues on top? Why would you then wilfully and deliberately import social issues that come with very different challenges to existing ones? Challenges that not a single nation in the "multicultural" west has been able to come up with much by way of long term solutions to. Why would you want to import another underclass?

Who is importing them? I'm certainly not importing anyone. And I'm not aware of any government policy for multiculturalism or for more asylum seekers.


I'll be honest I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. You can't show me a country with no social issues and I won't be able to show you any country where all "immigrants" are always positive. What does that prove for either of us apart from take any group of people and not all of them will be good and positive to the society they live in.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Not to put words in your mouth but I assume you don't believe that it is just the policy of this sitting government but for multiple governments. Which makes it the policy of Fianna Fáil and Fianna Gael as the government is always either one of those parties.

Why say you're not going to put words in my mouth, and then proceed to do just that?

It's simple enough really. RTE and government adverts on TV/social media/online have risen dramatically over the last few years, suggesting that they've allocated a substantial amount of investment into promoting multiculturalism and diversity. It's more than just the political parties... it's the government departments too who are pushing diversity.

Oh, and I wouldn't exclude the other parties simply because they're not in power. SF have repeatedly shown that they favor immigration, and the supposed benefits of foreigners arriving in Ireland.

As an aside diversity applies to more than just race. For example looking to include more females in a traditionally male area would be an example of trying to make that area more diverse. Or trying to include people with disabilities in areas they previously wouldn't have been included would come under the header diversity.

Context. I shouldn't need to say more than that, really.

Doctor Roast

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd agree with that statement in bold. Diversity is our strength. Apparently.

Until you're outnumbered..

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

The diversity on "race" is decidedly focused too. Ireland has well over 200,000 non native Irish people living here who are pale of face Europeans. They barely get a mention if ever in governmental and NGO missives. They may as well not exist. Not "diverse" enough it seems. East Asians aren't exactly high on the list either.

Isn't the Irish Polish society an NGO that at minimum represents 122000 of those people.

http://irishpolishsociety.ie/about-us/

RobbieTheRobber

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why say you're not going to put words in my mouth, and then proceed to do just that?

It's simple enough really. RTE and government adverts on TV/social media/online have risen dramatically over the last few years, suggesting that they've allocated a substantial amount of investment into promoting multiculturalism and diversity. It's more than just the political parties... it's the government departments too who are pushing diversity.

Oh, and I wouldn't exclude the other parties simply because they're not in power. SF have repeatedly shown that they favor immigration, and the supposed benefits of foreigners arriving in Ireland.



Context. I shouldn't need to say more than that, really.

So does any political party in Ireland represent your views?

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Who is importing them? I'm certainly not importing anyone. And I'm not aware of any government policy for multiculturalism or for more asylum seekers.

We had a very large influx of non EU migrants in the wake of the Good Friday agreement, the birthright loophole until that was closed off and we're still dealing with the after effects of that. The government is talking about handing out residency to the thousands of illegals, sorry "undocumented" here. Why aren't we simply deporting them?

I'll be honest I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. You can't show me a country with no social issues and I won't be able to show you any country where all "immigrants" are always positive. What does that prove for either of us apart from take any group of people and not all of them will be good and positive to the society they live in.

It comes down to the fact that multiculturalism adds more social problems to existing ones and therefore multiculturalism is not nearly the positive we're constantly hearing about.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

So we have existing social issues. OK, Answer me this then: Why would you then wilfully and deliberately import more social issues on top?

We don't import more social issues, we don't actually even 'import' people.
Government policies should address social issues.
It's like that same argument we hear from here anytime a non national is in court
' Why would we import more criminals' ?

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Isn't the Irish Polish society an NGO that at minimum represents 122000 of those people.

http://irishpolishsociety.ie/about-us/

When was the last time you saw a Pole or a Russian, or a German, or an Italian on the national airwaves as an example of "diversity"?

biko

bubblypop wrote: »

We don't import more social issues, we don't actually even 'import' people.

Almost 20 years ago:

The number of foreign nationals in custody in the Republic has reached its highest ever level and the problem is growing, reports Jim Cusack

Only a year or two ago, the profile of prisoners in the recreation yard of Cloverhill Prison was almost entirely Dublin working class.

The home-grown inmate population has now been supplemented by dozens of foreigners including African drug smugglers and more than 30 young Chinese, along with other groups including Nigerians, Albanians, Kosovars, Romanians and a few from other eastern European States.

The number of foreign nationals in custody here has reached its highest levels.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/organised-violent-crime-is-spiralling-among-the-non-national-population-26243687.html

As to importing people, I suppose that is a term of speech.
Is this importing?

IRELAND HAS AGREED to accept more migrants than was originally planned under a new EU quota.
The new measures proposed by the European Commission has seen Ireland agree to accept an extra 300 migrants, it was expected to take 272.

https://www.thejournal.ie/migrants-ireland-quota-eu-2102190-May2015/

Why do you think people from 1000s of miles away choose to escape to this little island in the rain?

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

We don't import more social issues, we don't actually even 'import' people.
Government policies should address social issues.
It's like that same argument we hear from here anytime a non national is in court
' Why would we import more criminals' ?

It's a valid one. And you keep going on about government policies addressing social issues? Great. How? No other multicultural European nation's government seems to have much success. Everywhere you go you find the same trends: those of African origin clustering around the bottom of society, same with some Middle Easter demographics and migratory ethnicities, while others like East Asians , Indians do much better on average, often better than the native population. So of all these different government policies, social supports, cultures why do we see the exact same trends?

And actually you're right we don't import people. We have let thousands in because of now thankfully gone loophole, successive governmental faffing around and the lack of the will to deport illegals from this country.

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

When was the last time you saw a Pole or a Russian, or a German, or an Italian on the national airwaves as an example of "diversity"?

I'm not likely to see someone on the airwaves am I.
But it really depends on the context, if the context is about asylum seekers then no I wouldn't expect to see Polish or British people represented on news programs. But if it was about immigrants in general then I very much would expect to see Polish people represented as one of the largest immigrant groups in the country.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So does any political party in Ireland represent your views?

Nope.... but then, I've always understood there's a difference between what politicians say, and what they do.

biko

biko wrote: »

Almost 20 years ago:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/organised-violent-crime-is-spiralling-among-the-non-national-population-26243687.html

As to importing people, I suppose that is a term of speech.
Is this importing?

https://www.thejournal.ie/migrants-ireland-quota-eu-2102190-May2015/

Why do you think people from 1000s of miles away choose to escape to this little island in the rain?

I'm not sure if the point you're trying to make about prisoners?
Are you saying there are more foreign prisoners now then there was years ago?
I would expect that to be the case. Seems obvious.

Tell me how

Wibbs wrote: »

It's a valid one. And you keep going on about government policies addressing social issues? Great. How? No other multicultural European nation's government seems to have much success. Everywhere you go you find the same trends: those of African origin clustering around the bottom of society, same with some Middle Easter demographics and migratory ethnicities, while others like East Asians , Indians do much better on average, often better than the native population. So of all these different government policies, social supports, cultures why do we see the exact same trends?

And actually you're right we don't import people. We have let thousands in because of now thankfully gone loophole, successive governmental faffing around and the lack of the will to deport illegals from this country.

There have been native women in all these countries also but that doesn't mean that their parliaments have contained an accurate representation of their numbers in their societies.

Change comes slowly, slavery was abolished in the US in 1865, civil rights act wasn't signed until 1964. America only last month inaugurated its first female to the role of Vice President. We have yet to see a female Taoiseach in Ireland but will likely do so within the next 10 years.

Just because something doesn't happen within a couple years or even decades doesn't mean that there isn't organic, evolving integration amongst the sectors of what makes up a society before it is visible in all its official branches.