What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Wibbs

larva wrote: »

There is even a DOG in the picture too, ohh the HORROR of it all!!? The end is NIGH!! Would spreading the fear and intolerance be a better approach for government to adopt?

So the only options you can see are "totally made up box ticking wincingly obvious nonsense that doesn't reflect reality" or "fear and intolerance"? No wonder the flagwavers for diversity have no workable solutions to offer.

BTW you missed the cat.

larva

Wibbs wrote: »

If legal, C. Or B. A wouldn't be any issue if they're settled Travellers. I've known a few in my time and were sound. Scrapyards out back and caravans everywhere, nope.

How? Other nations have tried and yet still end up with the same problems down the line. Again how are we going to be different? We're already seeing ghettoisation in action and we're only two decades in and with a small non native population compared to others.

Citation needed. How is it a "natural evolution of our species"? The history and evolution of our species has been a long list of conquest, assimilation, even extinction of competing groups. That's "natural". Multiculturalism would actually be the "unnatural" state. You can't reset human nature in a couple of generations. Now I've heard the argument that oh well we went from Catholic Ireland to divorce, choice and Gay marriage so aren't we so progressive and we can handle multiculturalism too.... Slight problem with that. All of those have been present throughout human history across many different cultures already. They have been acceptable before. They wax and wane over time. Thing is tribalism and group affiliation even up to all out racism are even more writ through our species and across damned near every culture and time.

Most successful nations throughout history did just that. Those that were "multicultural" were so through imperial domination. Never mind that just because you don't have large populations of non natives, doesn't make a country isolated and removed. I don't see how nationhood is so denigrated, though it's almost exclusively denigrated among White nations. Few Asians or Africans would hold the same view. The vast majority are very proud of their nationhood and cultures. They certainly don't have the gra to water to down with outsiders for "diversity". It's a recent thing with White thought on the matter. Post world war two really. The thumbnail sketch being nations caused that, therefore nations baaaaad m'kay.



There's a few things going on there. The usual "ah sure the Irish emigrated too" as one example. And a common one. Difference being for the vast majority of that history the same Irish people had to sink or swim in their adoptive, usually colonial nations. There was no social welfare outside the gates of Ellis island.

Then we have the "we're bringing in doctors" angle. Yup and I would bet the farm nobody has an issue with qualified people of any background coming to this country. How many of the influx two decades ago were educated professionals coming here legally? How many of the so called "refugees" crossing the Mediterranean in rubber dinghies today are?

And there's nothing hidden about the different skin colour equals different treatment. It's quite overt. And largely intractable, unless the different skin colour is a novelty as a tiny minority.

As for multiculturalism as a choice. That's the problem, it hasn't been. In Ireland it happened on the back of a "boom" and a legal loophole, one the Irish people latterly rejected by a large majority. I wonder if the same electorate had been asked to vote before we got "diversity" dropped on us, would they have voted no. I'd bet they would. And even if it's a choice, again how do we magically avoid the problems of every other nation that has struggled with it. Please tell us. I hear this a lot, but nobody comes up with actual workable solutions that take into account human nature and history. It's just the usual happy clappy talk of "inclusion" and "good feelings". And that doesn't seem to be working.

Its called free movement of people. Whatever term you want to put on it, or however its comes about, multiculturism, warfare, free choice, it is a right that all people have, the right to move freely. It has to be first embraced or it doesnt have a hope of succeeding. There isnt any MAGIC FORMULA and its is a struggle but having an open conversation about it and highlighting all the issues its brings is the only way forward.

Wibbs

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

In my experience I've found that more white male friends and acquaintances have relationships with other colors/races than white females would!

Funny enough ditto. While I have generally found more Irish women that I know and have known open to the idea of multiculturalism as a notion, I have found more Irish men that I know to be against it, yet more open to relationships with non local women.

larva

Hamachi wrote: »

Can you engage with Wibbs’ argument instead of resorting to hyperbole?

The better approach for the government to adopt is to actually implement a skills-based migration policy that works for this country. This would eliminate fear and intolerance at source.

He does speak a lot of Spanish

joe40

joe40 wrote: »

All these things happen, that is true.
So as a country we can either stop immigration and keep the country as monocultural as possible. That would prevent the things you talk about, and many people would strongly support that view I don't know where you stand yourself.

Why this or the other? Why not a little of both? There is this rush to embrace absolutes. We don't need to stop immigration. We need to reduce it until we have established a working/viable plan capable of avoiding the problems that other nations have encountered.

And we don't need to be monocultural since we have all of Europe to draw upon which shares common characteristics. The dominant culture could be Irish with European influences... it's already going that way, as it is. Just because we might reduce migrants from Africa or the M.East for a time, doesn't mean that we have to protect/promote Irish culture above all others. (although it would be nice if we stopped considering nationalism or national pride as being a bad thing).

If however if one accepts that immigration is going to happen and there are going to be different cultures, ethnicities and Skin colour living here, then I think it is wise for the government and society in general to promote inclusion and equality to try to prevent the problems that arose through segregation in other countries.

Except they already had that. Equality regardless of gender, race or ethnicity. Legal protections. The problem is that many migrants are not prepared to live in a first world nation, in that they're lacking the education and/or language. And so... they are to receive help that places them above the majority, bypassing equality. Which is another reason why multiculturalism tends to fail so badly. It's not recognising the differences in culture and nationality as genuine factors to be considered, rather than reasons to show inequalities.

The only alternative is no immigration, like Russia or China. I personally wouldn't like our society to be like those countries.

You have little real understanding of what their societies are like. I lived in Moscow for over a year, and a decade in China. Both have immigration. Quite a bit actually.

I think Ireland is going to have immigrants the debate should be how to best manage that now and into the future. How are we going to function as a society with second and third generation immigrants.

I have 2 teenagers and granted I don't live in Dublin but so far the immigration and cultures they have experienced has been very positive. National schools worked very hard to help that process.

It's still early days for Ireland, but it's important to recognize that the world has changed dramatically in the last decade. The composition of migrants has shifted, so relying on the past for projections is rather naive. We really need to look at the situation with the realities foremost in our minds.

Hamachi

larva wrote: »

He does speak a lot of Spanish

As opposed to you, who has nothing of value to offer?

Wibbs

larva wrote: »

Its called free movement of people. Whatever term you want to put on it, or however its comes about, multiculturism, warfare, free choice, it is a right that all people have, the right to move freely. It has to be first embraced or it doesnt have a hope of succeeding. There isnt any MAGIC FORMULA and its is a struggle but having an open conversation about it and highlighting all the issues its brings is the only way forward.

So you got nada, just repeating what you already believe? So what constitutes open conversation? It appears to be; you believe in the right for anyone to go anywhere - which doesn't really exist by the by - and this should be embraced and that's that, or it doesn't succeed. Well OK, how does it get this embrace? How do we stop marginalisation? How do we stop ghettoisation? How do we stop racism? There may be no "MAGIC FORMULA" but you're not even offering up a single solution to any of it, beyond some vague "embrace". I doubt your open conversation includes those who say nope, don't want this diversity stuff thanks very much.


BTW I love that you lump in warfare under free movement of people as a right. You couldn't make this up.

larva

Hamachi wrote: »

As opposed to you, who has nothing of value to offer?

Yeah right, are you discussing the topic or just having a go at me?

Limpy

Limpy wrote: »

I know many Europeans who are not white and practise Islamic religion. They are EU citizens born in EU countries.

How... nice... for you.

What's your point?

Hamachi

Wibbs wrote: »

Funny enough ditto. While I have generally found more Irish women that I know and have known open to the idea of multiculturalism as a notion, I have found more Irish men that I know to be against it, yet more open to relationships with non local women.

Yep; This chimes with my experience too. Nor is it a uniquely Irish phenomenon.

I spent a few weeks in Toronto with work late last year. Toronto is the self-proclaimed multicultural capital of the world. Whilst there are a decent amount of White man / East Asian woman couples, it was very noticeable how few white Canadian women were in interracial relationships.

No idea what’s driving the dynamics behind this, but it’s a pretty consistent pattern in multiethnic societies.

larva

Wibbs wrote: »

So you got nada, just repeating what you already believe? So what constitutes open conversation? It appears to be; you believe in the right for anyone to go anywhere - which doesn't really exist by the by - and this should be embraced and that's that, or it doesn't succeed. Well OK, how does it get this embrace? How do we stop marginalisation? How do we stop ghettoisation? How do we stop racism? There may be no "MAGIC FORMULA" but you're not even offering up a single solution to any of it, beyond some vague "embrace". I doubt your open conversation includes those who say nope, don't want this diversity stuff thanks very much.


BTW I love that you lump in warfare under free movement of people as a right. You couldn't make this up.

So, what? nobody travels to other countries and isnt moving freely right now? And getting on with other, talking about where they are from, their own homes and families, integrating and the like. You yourself are just repeating the same stuff without offering any solution and seem very narrow minded about the future.

larva

larva wrote: »

So, what? nobody travels to other countries and isnt moving freely right now? And getting on with other, talking about where they are from, their own homes and families, integrating and the like. You yourself are just repeating the same stuff without offering any solution and seem very narrow minded about the future.

"People who are educated and come here to integrate and work I have no problem with at all, I have many friends that are not Irish.

We shouldnt be taking in people who are criminals or who will only end up as criminal is my problem, why should we take in other countries problems? Because America took us in during the Famine? please."

Um... are you a wee bit confused? Depending on the thread, your views seem to shift dramatically.

Hamachi

larva wrote: »

So, what? nobody travels to other countries and isnt moving freely right now? And getting on with other, talking about where they are from, their own homes and families, integrating and the like. You yourself are just repeating the same stuff without offering any solution and seem very narrow minded about the future.

To reiterate yet again, the solution is a skills-based immigration policy that operates in the interests of this country. Encourage migration if there is a specific skills gap that needs to be addressed. Labour force participation of people who are genuinely needed, facilitates integration. Conversely, if the local population has the capacity to meet economic demand or those seeking entry do not possess the requisite skills, the migration tap is turned off.

The solution is relatively straightforward. It has absolutely nothing to do with opened mindedness or tolerance. It all comes down to reason and logic, driven by hard data. Do what’s right for Ireland and most of the residual issues around migration disappear.

ArchXStanton

Hamachi wrote: »

Yep; This chimes with my experience too. Nor is it a uniquely Irish phenomenon.

I spent a few weeks in Toronto with work late last year. Toronto is the self-proclaimed multicultural capital of the world. Whilst there are a decent amount of White man / East Asian woman couples, it was very noticeable how few white Canadian women were in interracial relationships.

No idea what’s driving the dynamics behind this, but it’s a pretty consistent pattern in multiethnic societies.

Ans still generations later they have their own neighbourhoods in Toronto, little Italy, little India, little Greece, 2 Chinatowns

Tony EH

Wibbs wrote: »

So the only options you can see are "totally made up box ticking wincingly obvious nonsense that doesn't reflect reality" or "fear and intolerance"? No wonder the flagwavers for diversity have no workable solutions to offer.

BTW you missed the cat.

Seriously though, regarding the picture in question, that has more to do with trying to head off the mouthy types at the pass more than anything else. I don't think there's any great plan to try and influence Irish people into a way of thinking or anything.

In my years, I used to work as a designer and all too often when dealing with the UK and, especially, with the US market, I had to make sure to include some sort of minority images as mandated by the clients in those markets.

It's largely an ass covering exercise to avoid any kind of bad publicity. I'd imagine that anything coming from a gov.ie site would be eager to do that.

olestoepoke

Tony EH wrote: »

Seriously though, regarding the picture in question, that has more to do with trying to head off the mouthy types at the pass more than anything else. I don't think there's any great plan to try and influence Irish people into a way of thinking or anything.

In my years, I used to work as a designer and all too often when dealing with the UK and, especially, with the US market, I had to make sure to include some sort of minority images as mandated by the clients in those markets.

It's largely an ass covering exercise to avoid any kind of bad publicity. I'd imagine that anything coming from a gov.ie site would be eager to do that.

That's fair enough but why aren't white Irish men represented in the poster?

Tony EH

olestoepoke wrote: »

That's fair enough but why aren't white Irish men represented in the poster?

Designer oversight probably.

Images like the one in question are usually ratted off very quickly. They're a small time gig. I don't think anyone is thinking about it too deeply, to be honest.

They (maybe a female) were probably told don't forget to include x and y and they went ahead and knocked up something fast.

ExMachina1000

Tony EH wrote: »

Designer oversight probably.

Images like the one in question are usually ratted off very quickly. They're a small time gig. I don't think anyone is thinking about it too deeply, to be honest.

They (maybe a female) were probably told don't forget to include x and y and they went ahead and knocked up something fast.

Sounds like a mickey mouse company who shouldn't be tasked with government contracts in the future

Tony EH

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Sounds like a mickey mouse company who shouldn't be tasked with government contracts in the future

That's a big assumption to make based on ONE cartoon picture. :pac:

ExMachina1000

Tony EH wrote: »

That's a big assumption to make based on ONE cartoon picture. :pac:

It's a fairly important one all the same. It's for a government website.
They weren't tasked with designing posters for a bake sale.

The eejit in the public service who signed off on the design is as much at fault. Unless of course that was specifically what was asked for. In that case job well done.

The email may have been along the lines of: We need an image for a government website. I know we are in Ireland but if you could send us something with no white men that would be brill
Regards,
Janet minion no 12564

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

Marginalisation happens. It is pretty much inevitable. It's down to human nature and observable throughout our history and while yes optimistic and kind to think we can change this nature it's naive in the extreme.

Take a multicultural nation like Brazil, a major so called "melting pot" of different ethnicities and "races" and after centuries of living together, look at the genetics. People who look African have majority African DNA, those that look European have majority European DNA and so forth. We see similar throughout the world and our history. People don't tend to mix except under duresses like colonisation, invasion and slavery. This notion that some hold that at some time in the future humanity will be mostly tanned brown eyed people all mixed up together is a pipe dream, and actually would be a nightmare and bad for us as a species to lose our genetic diversity. Never mind that again it assumes that what the pale of skin and blue of eye need is more melanin. And again the same people wouldn't dream of suggesting that what the darker of skin need is less melanin.

This marginalisation and separation is already happening in Ireland along skin colour lines and we've only been in the multicultural game for less than two decades and by comparison with other multicultural nations far fewer numbers. The pattern remains the same everywhere. Small numbers of non indigenous people tend to "fit in" and works well enough, but there is a point where the numbers grow and people quite naturally want to cluster together with others like themselves and create largely separate communities. This goes quadruple for demographics that look distinct and/or have very distinct cultural differences from the native populations. So Africans in Ireland are going to separate far more than Poles and this difference gets wider with each generation. The same would happen if 60,000 White Irish people showed up in Nigeria. They would inevitably coalesce into their own separate communities and would establish a White ghetto. In long standing multiethnic colonies like the US etc, you get Italian quarters, Chinatowns etc. Again human nature.

1 million Irish emigrated to the USA in the famine. Do you believe the USA was negatively affected by it?

Tony EH

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

It's a fairly important one all the same.

It really isn't.

ExMachina1000

Tony EH wrote: »

It really isn't.

Depends on who you ask. Opinions are wide and varied.

Tony EH

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Depends on who you ask. Opinions are wide and varied.

It's a cartoon image on a website that the vast majority of people on the island won't even see.

If something like that is of a level of "importance" to you, then our opinion on the matter is quite wide apart indeed.

ExMachina1000

Tony EH wrote: »

It's a cartoon image on a website that the vast majority of people on the island won't even see.

If something like that is of a level of "importance" to you, then our opinion on the matter is quite wide apart indeed.

I accept your stance and opinion.

olestoepoke

Tony EH wrote: »

Designer oversight probably.

Images like the one in question are usually ratted off very quickly. They're a small time gig. I don't think anyone is thinking about it too deeply, to be honest.

They (maybe a female) were probably told don't forget to include x and y and they went ahead and knocked up something fast.

Ok so lets imagine that it were the other way around and black Irish men were not represented. Do you think anyone would think about the too deeply? I';d wager the social justice warriors would be in uproar. Double standards.

stinkypinky

I don't really care about the image because everything is PC these days nor do I find it off putting really, but imo it is very unlikely to be a design overnight. An artist was most likely given instructions by some diversity officer type.

Clarence Boddiker

If you believe that this type of imagery commissioned and displayed by the Govt has little relevance or importance then all I can say is you're incredibly naive.

Tony EH

olestoepoke wrote: »

Ok so lets imagine that it were the other way around and black Irish meant were not represented. Do you think anyone would think about the too deeply? I';d wager the social justice warriors would be in uproar. Double standards.

There are lots of people that aren't "represented" in the cartoon. There are no old people for example.

As for "imagining", IMO there are too many people imagining things, instead of just getting on with it.

You don't need to see yourself represented in every image you view.

Look, I'll hazard a guess at to what's happened here, because I've seen things like this before. This is, more than likely, a quick image rattled off by a 20 something female designer who, more often than not, doesn't include men or old folk in her design considerations and doesn't get enough of a deadline to give a crap.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

1 million Irish emigrated to the USA in the famine. Do you believe the USA was negatively affected by it?

This old chestnut. Again. A) the US is a former colony that was born and bred on immigration. It quite simply couldn't have existed without it. 2) Even so note today now they have enough people how much harder it is to get into the place and they don't like illegals too much and that attitude is hardening in some quarters. 3) The Irish in America had their fair share of negatives as well as positives attached(like many other groups). 4) America is and certainly was a "White" European nation and culture and the Irish being of that hue found it much easier to assimilate over the generations when compared to Blacks and Hispanics, even Italians to some degree(Asians tended to do their own thing, without generating much in the way of attention for the most part). 5) America is hardly a good example to hold up of social issues along ethnic and race lines. 6) When the Irish and others arrived in America there were no "free lunches" and the only social welfare was charity. Comparing an Irish immigrant to the US in the 1840's and a Nigerian illegal immigrant to Ireland in 2000 who is living in a taxpayer council house today. Well there is little comparison.

olestoepoke wrote: »

Ok so lets imagine that it were the other way around and black Irish meant were not represented. Do you think anyone would think about the too deeply? I';d wager the social justice warriors would be in uproar. Double standards.

As Tony notes it's likely much "more to do with trying to head off the mouthy types at the pass" and the types you reference are more likely to take umbrage and complain than pretty much anyone and the government and government bodies are sensitive to that. Too bloody sensitive in my humble. Then again we have had an African woman living here attached to some NGO or other(it's hard to keep track of them) lecturing the UN and by extension the Irish on "our" culture of multiculturalism so there's that. It's beyond farcical in a lot of ways.