What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Actually, I've stayed consistent on the same points.. you're the one that tends to drift considerably.



Generally no, because there are no barriers to them adjusting to western culture and values... as would normally occur over time, nor is there the expectation based on their own cultural norms for westerners to conform.

But yeah.. I won't be responding to your posts from now on. So, we're both saved the frustration.

So when I point out different cultures that treat women like second class citizens, that's because they are not western.
But yet you don't have an issue with those people moving here, but you do have a problem with Muslims moving here.
But you know all Muslims are not the same. And you know there are moderate Muslims.

So you just don't make sense.

WrenBoy

bubblypop wrote: »

I think that's a teenage thing more than anything, sounding American, because of the programs they watch, music they listen to. But that's always been the case. It was when I was a teenager.
Many countries have been influenced by American culture, they still retain their same values and cultures.

Your right in a way that its a surface gloss of Pop culture that young people emulate and is harmless enough but its this vague sense of racial self loathing that white people are encouraged to take part in that worries me. Its seen as nonsense by many but who's to know what effect it will have going forward, hopefully it runs out of steam before it becomes too mainstream.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

So you just don't make sense.

Okay... I'll spell it out for you because you just don't want to see it.

You are simply incapable of dealing with the points made by posters. I posted a video showing how French women are being intimidated by the presence of Muslim men, and the manner in which these Muslim communities are imposing their way of living on others... even while French laws continue to operate. [in response to your claim that laws, or the statute books would prevent such from happening]

You decided to go off talking about how women are treated in such a manner in many countries, whereupon, I asked where in the western world does it happen.. and you gave me Serbia (which is not, and has never been a very westernised country) and vietnam (an Asian Communist government).

You don't see the sense, because you constantly seek to shift the goalposts, never actually addressing the points made, and instead pushing for other topics to be talked about.

I originally posted about France, provided the video as reference material, and you decided you wanted to talk about the UK instead. All the while dancing away from the points that I made repeatedly, in the hopes you would actually address any of them directly. Which you haven't.

So when I point out different cultures that treat women like second class citizens, that's because they are not western.

Nope. Not even close to what I said.

But yet you don't have an issue with those people moving here, but you do have a problem with Muslims moving here.

Again, nope. Not what I said.

But you know all Muslims are not the same. And you know there are moderate Muslims.

And.... back again to points that have been addressed a dozen times already.

(I never said that Muslims were all the same, nor did I deny that there were moderate Muslims.)

You brought in the video of France, presumably to show what 'could' happen here?
I addressed the video.
You state that Muslim attitudes to women are based in their religion.
I showed two different cultures who have similar attitudes to women. There are many more. That's just two I experienced.

I won't even get into the attitudes towards them that are regularly felt by all women, even here in Ireland, because we know you seem to believe there are no issues for women.

You don't believe Islam is compatible with western society, I think extremes of any religion are not compatible with western society. But I wouldn't stop someone entering a country because of their religion alone.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

You brought in the video of France, presumably to show what 'could' happen here?
I addressed the video.
You state that Muslim attitudes to women are based in their religion.
I showed two different cultures who have similar attitudes to women. There are many more. That's just two I experienced.

I won't even get into the attitudes towards them that are regularly felt by all women, even here in Ireland, because we know you seem to believe there are no issues for women.

You don't believe Islam is compatible with western society, I think extremes of any religion are not compatible with western society. But I wouldn't stop someone entering a country because of their religion alone.

Anyone who adheres to old testament in Christianity or is an orthodox Jew would be just as difficult to integrate in to a modern secular society. The difference is that if you are moderate as a Jew or a Christian you aren't accused of apostasy which is punishable by death in Sharia law.

WrenBoy

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone who adheres to old testament in Christianity or is an orthodox Jew would be just as difficult to integrate in to a modern secular society. The difference is that if you are moderate as a Jew or a Christian you aren't accused of apostasy which is punishable by death in Sharia law.

Added to that the muslim community in the West tends to be quite insular and people from those communities would typically not have many points of contact outside of the ummah unless its through work or possibly college. Apostates would be made to feel that leaving the fold of islam would lead to them being shunned or even persecuted by their own community and not cared for by the secular community.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34357047

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

You brought in the video of France, presumably to show what 'could' happen here?
I addressed the video.

Actually, you haven't. You sought to dismiss it as being the normal state of affairs in other countries, seeking to downplay the effects it has on women. You might want to scroll back and check how many times I had to ask before you even acknowledged the video at all....

You state that Muslim attitudes to women are based in their religion.

Actually, again, I didn't. Although I would say it now, that it is a combination of both culture and religion, and since Islam has such strong influence over the culture...

I showed two different cultures who have similar attitudes to women. There are many more. That's just two I experienced.

Well, for one thing.. Your example of Vietnam is completely wrong then, since Vietnamese women aren't shunned in public, and kept behind closed doors. And the other thing, is that it's still unrelated to the questions I asked previously.

I won't even get into the attitudes towards them that are regularly felt by all women, even here in Ireland, because we know you seem to believe there are no issues for women.

You don't know anything of the sort.. because I didn't state anything of the sort.

You keep expanding far beyond what was actually said.

You don't believe Islam is compatible with western society,

Again.. not what I said.

I think extremes of any religion are not compatible with western society. But I wouldn't stop someone entering a country because of their religion alone.

Nor would I. Care to point to where I did suggest anything like that?

This post of yours is a perfect example of your posting style. How many statements have you assigned to me, which I didn't make? You have reinterpreted my points, and then sought to run with those interpretations of yours, rather than actually address the real points as written.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

I think that's a teenage thing more than anything, sounding American, because of the programs they watch, music they listen to. But that's always been the case. It was when I was a teenager.

Clearly I"m older than you BP, as it certainly wasn't the case when I was a teen and we consumed a shed load of UK and American produced TV programmes, films, literature, music and fashions, but I didn't know a single person who spoke with a mid Atlantic accent, never mind one that was pretty indistinguishable from an actual American's accent, or a British accent for that matter. That has most certainly accelerated and become far more widespread since the 1990's, along with the importation of much of the politics, faux intellectualism and culture too. Nobody went to the "stooore" with their "mooom" and ideas of political "left" and "right" were vastly different and far more rooted in European and Irish realities.

jmreire

WrenBoy wrote: »

Added to that the muslim community in the West tends to be quite insular and people from those communities would typically not have many points of contact outside of the ummah unless its through work or possibly college. Apostates would be made to feel that leaving the fold of islam would lead to them being shunned or even persecuted by their own community and not cared for by the secular community.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34357047

There is something fundamentally wrong with any philosophy in which any family member is killed by his / her own parents or siblings...It goes against the very basics of humanity.

flazio

jmreire wrote: »

There is something fundamentally wrong with any philosophy in which any family member is killed by his / her own parents or siblings...It goes against the very basics of humanity.

It's been known to have happened in Irish travelling communities.
Not often, and not reported in the mainstream. Definitely not a Muslim exclusive.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This post of yours is a perfect example of your posting style. How many statements have you assigned to me, which I didn't make? You have reinterpreted my points, and then sought to run with those interpretations of yours, rather than actually address the real points as written.

No, I can just cut through rubbish and get to the point.

jmreire

flazio wrote: »

It's been known to have happened in Irish travelling communities.
Not often, and not reported in the mainstream. Definitely not a Muslim exclusive.

I'm well aware that so called honor killing is not exclusively an Islamic trait, which is why I did not mention any race or ethical grouping specificially.....but any such race or grouping which condones or in in some cases, insists on Family members killing other family members, IE: so called "honor Killings" is in direct contradiction of Natural Law.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

No, I can just cut through rubbish and get to the point.

As I said, it's useless trying to discuss anything with you. You cut away everything other people say, just so you can argue with yourself.

Sir Oxman

This podcast interview is worth a listen.
It's 1 hour long. A few times the connection stutters but not much.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
She lays out the current and upcoming problems for Western countries quite clearly through the lens of what this means for women - she knows intimately what this means for women and the Western countries as a whole that have illogically embraced the notion of collective atonement which feeds the 'no discussion' narrative.

John Doe1

Sir Oxman wrote: »

This podcast interview is worth a listen.
It's 1 hour long. A few times the connection stutters but not much.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
She lays out the current and upcoming problems for Western countries quite clearly through the lens of what this means for women - she knows intimately what this means for women and the Western countries as a whole that have illogically embraced the notion of collective atonement which feeds the 'no discussion' narrative.

Brave woman!

She is a true feminist not like the moaning myrtles on twitter complaining about manspreading and the like.

DeadHand

Deleted User wrote: »

As I said, it's useless trying to discuss anything with you. You cut away everything other people say, just so you can argue with yourself.

It’s the Cathy Newman method often employed by progressivist posters here.

They essentially end up arguing with figments of their imagination.

WrenBoy

WrenBoy wrote: »

Added to that the muslim community in the West tends to be quite insular and people from those communities would typically not have many points of contact outside of the ummah unless its through work or possibly college. Apostates would be made to feel that leaving the fold of islam would lead to them being shunned or even persecuted by their own community and not cared for by the secular community.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34357047

My devout Colleague shipped in a nice docile wife from his homeland which he found through a match-making service. He wanted a good Muslim wife and had no intention of finding a wife locally and then with no English to speak of there was zero chance of her integrating in society, knew no life outside the local Mosque and became a baby factory.
The Immigration Authorities were happy to re-unify this devout Muslim with his newly found wife whom he had never met before going on a trip home to find a wife.
Some people take for granted the freedoms which they enjoy in western society.

rgossip30

This is a big scandal but only the Times UK is reporting it not mainstream . I find it hard to believe this Irish NGO founder is also not complicit who should be thoroughly investigated and if implicated should be guilty of treason .


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chantal-mccabe-lodger-held-over-people-smuggling-xsdrtdm2c

Gript got the story with a bit more detail .

https://gript.ie/immigrant-council-founder-brought-man-arrested-in-human-trafficking-operation-to-ireland-on-work-visa/?fbclid=IwAR3eRTKB8ekjwdjzrAl3tebfL4Co9JPAVLFoioJNJXfhIZZjE0bpA7qVucM

Eric Cartman

rgossip30 wrote: »

This is a big scandal but only the Times UK is reporting it . I find it hard to believe this Irish NGO founder is also not complicit who should be thoroughly investigated and if implicated should be guilty of treason .


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chantal-mccabe-lodger-held-over-people-smuggling-xsdrtdm2c

this is a massive scandal and with any hope should bring down the shambles that is our NGO sector and particularly the lucrative and damaging migrant industry.

stefanovich

Eric Cartman wrote: »

this is a massive scandal and with any hope should bring down the shambles that is our NGO sector and particularly the lucrative and damaging migrant industry.

Maybe the journal will report on it? On second thoughts....

TomTomTim

stefanovich wrote: »

Maybe the journal will report on it? On second thoughts....

They won't. They've far more important work to be at, like trying to work out when the middle of summer is.

When do you think the middle of summer is?

Wibbs

Eric Cartman wrote: »

this is a massive scandal and with any hope should bring down the shambles that is our NGO sector and particularly the lucrative and damaging migrant industry.

Never going to happen. The sector has too many political connections and since the foundation of the state our governments have handed over large areas of responsibility to NGO's, almost entirely church run in the past and have no intention of reopening any debate on bringing things back into the governmental fold. The country is too small, the cliques even smaller, but the troughs have grown bigger down the years in certain areas. It's less about the NGO"s themselves, but the usual inefficiencies that Irish government and public service are err to.

As for the scandal. Of the so called "left" folks I know and have known down the years a couple of traits tend to stand out. They're far more hopeful and optimistic than the so called "right". They tend to be much kinder too. All good and positive traits for anyone. However just as the "right" tend to be bloody cynical, the same "left" folks also tend to be scarily naive. Well they share that all too human nature trait of assuming everyone is pretty much like them. So if you're open and trusting and not a prick, you'll tend to assume others are for the most part similar. So you have someone from a very comfortable and safe background, living in a very comfortable and safe society and their view on the world tends to be extremely naive when faced with someone coming from an uncomfortable, unsafe and corrupt country. If such a person decides to work all the angles they can, who's going to "win" in that encounter?

And on the NGO front and the above history of them in this country, the Immigrant Council was founded by one Stanislaus Kennedy, a nun. If you read their mission statement again you see a lot of genuinely held positivity, with again the usual naivete. Like this statement: The American abolitionist, journalist and social reformer, William Lloyd Garrison, wrote – back in 1837 – that: “Our country is the world – our countrymen are all mankind.” It's a fantastic sentiment, but as the history of the world since he wrote that amply demonstrates a sentiment that doesn't survive much contact with the enemy of reality.

Esho

Wibbs wrote: »

Never going to happen. The sector has too many political connections and since the foundation of the state our governments have handed over large areas of responsibility to NGO's, almost entirely church run in the past and have no intention of reopening any debate on bringing things back into the governmental fold. The country is too small, the cliques even smaller, but the troughs have grown bigger down the years in certain areas. It's less about the NGO"s themselves, but the usual inefficiencies that Irish government and public service are err to.

As for the scandal. Of the so called "left" folks I know and have known down the years a couple of traits tend to stand out. They're far more hopeful and optimistic than the so called "right". They tend to be much kinder too. All good and positive traits for anyone. However just as the "right" tend to be bloody cynical, the same "left" folks also tend to be scarily naive. Well they share that all too human nature trait of assuming everyone is pretty much like them. So if you're open and trusting and not a prick, you'll tend to assume others are for the most part similar. So you have someone from a very comfortable and safe background, living in a very comfortable and safe society and their view on the world tends to be extremely naive when faced with someone coming from an uncomfortable, unsafe and corrupt country. If such a person decides to work all the angles they can, who's going to "win" in that encounter?

And on the NGO front and the above history of them in this country, the Immigrant Council was founded by one Stanislaus Kennedy, a nun. If you read their mission statement again you see a lot of genuinely held positivity, with again the usual naivete. Like this statement: The American abolitionist, journalist and social reformer, William Lloyd Garrison, wrote – back in 1837 – that: “Our country is the world – our countrymen are all mankind.” It's a fantastic sentiment, but as the history of the world since he wrote that amply demonstrates a sentiment that doesn't survive much contact with the enemy of reality.

I agree - people who come from a stable,secure background and kindhearted tend to think the best and want the best for others - naively.

I'm curious about what you said about the NGOs tho - if the Immigrant Council vanished tomorrow noone but the emolyees would notice. Unlike say, the Refugee Council and MRCI , they don't actually do any direct assistance or advocacy. The cynic in me reckon s it was the Catholic response to immigration, rather than the political lefties.

The fact that the story about the Eritrean guy hasn't been reported on here speaks volumes.

Do you mean that the govt is devolving it's responsibility to manage multiculturalism to NGOs? As in, it's not that important, just throw a few quid at them and the jobs done?

stefanovich

Esho wrote: »

I agree - people who come from a stable,secure background and kindhearted tend to think the best and want the best for others - naively.

They are generally insulated from the negative effects of the policies they promote too.

TomTomTim

stefanovich wrote: »

They are generally insulated from the negative effects of the policies they promote too.

The traveller debacle at the last presidential election was one of the clearest examples of that you'll find. Those clowns, with a straight face, telling us that they'd gladly live beside travellers. You've lived a very privileged and sheltered existence I've you've managed to get into adult hood without having to deal with our native minorities.

Mad_maxx

TomTomTim wrote: »

The traveller debacle at the last presidential election was one of the clearest examples of that you'll find. Those clowns, with a straight face, telling us that they'd gladly live beside travellers. You've lived a very privileged and sheltered existence I've you've managed to get into adult hood without having to deal with our native minorities.

eulogizing travellers is a passtime for cultural elites who despise middle ireland joe and josephine tax payer , we remind them of their parents and past before they escaped to the place known as RTE , these bubble dwelling ivory tower leftists love to think of themselves as liberated from middle ireland concerns and so champion outlaws like travellers as a way of getting up the nose of regular middle ireland tax payers

they have not a breeze about travellers in reality , nor do they need to

jmayo

stefanovich wrote: »

They are generally insulated from the negative effects of the policies they promote too.

Exactly.
A lot of pro open immigration pro, asylum seekers are usually from comfortable backgrounds with access to more opportunities, better education and better jobs.
They won't be the ones directly competing with very cheap uneducated unskilled labour.
They won't be the ones directly competing with uneducated immigrants for education, housing, social welfare.
And they won't be the ones living anywhere near them.

And another side to this is they often have experience of people from the same religion or who come from the same neck of the woods as these immigrants and asylum seekers.

Except the people they have experience of maybe the rich kids of professionals they have shared schools with, the educated ones that they met in university or the educated ones they have worked in high tech companies or in medical backgrounds.

Ahmed the Computer Engineer, Tejas the rugby playing school boy, Ali the medical student or Ade the doctor are not really comparable to the lads coming across the Med in dinghies or hanging out in Calais trying to jump aboard an artic.

And I have also said this before somewhere the way to know how open a person is, is to see them in their home environment and especially around women or girls.
The lad everyone thinks is sound and ever so Western might suddenly show their true self when they are with their wive or sister.
And yes that is speaking from experience.

RobbieTheRobber

jmayo wrote: »

Except the people they have experience of maybe the rich kids of professionals they have shared schools with, the educated ones that they met in university or the educated ones they have worked in high tech companies or in medical backgrounds.

Ahmed the Computer Engineer, Tejas the rugby playing school boy, Ali the medical student or Ade the doctor are not really comparable to the lads coming across the Med in dinghies or hanging out in Calais trying to jump aboard an artic.

Other people's experiences with people don't mean anything. OK

jmayo wrote: »

The lad everyone thinks is sound and ever so Western might suddenly show their true self when they are with their wive or sister.
And yes that is speaking from experience.

But your experience with people that is what counts and what shows the true colour of entire nations/people/ethnicities/race.
:D:D

Mike Murdock

Mad_maxx wrote: »

eulogizing travellers is a passtime for cultural elites who despise middle ireland joe and josephine tax payer , we remind them of their parents and past before they escaped to the place known as RTE , these bubble dwelling ivory tower leftists love to think of themselves as liberated from middle ireland concerns and so champion outlaws like travellers as a way of getting up the nose of regular middle ireland tax payers

they have not a breeze about travellers in reality , nor do they need to

Nor do they want to.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Other people's experiences with people don't mean anything. OK

Except, that's not what he said. You could consider the context that he provided, as being relevant to his statement.